The logical reactions to Dhumfire Change. (WvW)

[Meetshield.1756]

If you decide that you need to keep Soul Reaping for the 20% cooldown reduction on your F abilities, then the logical choice would be to take Death Perception instead of Dhumfire.

 

Taking Death Perception means that you have access to essentially free crits during desert shroud, and thus you will have more damage if you increase your power and ferocity.

 

Some players may decide to take a different trait line than Soul Reaping all together.

 

If you were running Curses + Soul Reaping, then you will either pickup 50% more crit in shroud, or you will pickup spite and take a huge boost in Axe and power damage. But however you slice it, scourges are headed towards power builds.

 

The Necro mains have likely already switched to power long before this nerf, but this will bring power scourge to the masses, in my opinion.

 

It should be noted that there appears to have been a stealth nerf to Scourge Power damage already. The manifest sand shade no longer is tied to weapon damage, and uses unequipped weapon for power, this was a 30-40% nerf to scourge power damage without being mentioned in the patch notes.

 

There is also the support scourge, or even Healer Scourge, which has taken some cooldown nerfs thanks to all the scourge hate, but is still a viable very tanky build that can actually do decent damage. I recently convinced a condi scourge to try the build and his words were "This is so OP!!". So dust off your Cele Gear from hybrid reaper and slap on the Blood magic trait line with death perception and give it a try.

[Kaiser.9873]

Okay. You found a good build that doesn't need dhuumfire to run. You say yourself, stealth nerf to power Scourge. So condi is not okay for a Scourge, and neither is power really, because they are going to nerf it under the table. You are right people have been headed toward power, not out of choice, but out of necessity. I really enjoy necro, core, reaper, and scourge, but always seeing nerfs and "fixes" is getting really old.

[Ceit.7619]

Power Scourge has to compete with Power Reaper though for comparison. Does it really match up in any significant way? Just taken for the range on F-skills?

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> Power Scourge has to compete with Power Reaper though for comparison. Does it really match up in any significant way? Just taken for the range on F-skills?

 

You're not losing out on your supporting and corruption ability.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I left scourge and jumped back on my SB. Heaven forbid, any scourge (or reaper for that matter) starts dumping toughness and/or vitality in favor of power/precision/ferocity. Your pretty much at the mercy of any ranged class (especially SB) if they decide to single you out.

 

It's like Anet doesn't think these changes through and the consequences that might follow. On paper a power necro class of any sort sounds interesting, but in reality they are sitting ducks against range class that decides to target them. I could get behind the change (maybe), if we were given more mobility.

[Threather.9354]

As scourge you can also play:

- Spite + Blood magic with reduced well recharge (power build)

- Spite + curses for extra corruption (combination of grieving and cele I think)

 

Unblockable marks for life force regen was kinda pointless anyways as you actually wanted the necro marks to get blocked because they were the lowest damage skills in a zerg.

 

You cant spam your shade skills but who actually wants to play the game by pressing skills off cooldown.

 

WvW scourge didnt really get nerfed, it just got changed to a state where scourges need to learn how to play.

[Threather.9354]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> Power Scourge has to compete with Power Reaper though for comparison. Does it really match up in any significant way? Just taken for the range on F-skills?

 

The shade skills and shroud has 10-man target cap, also you have support, more range + better elite skill available.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> I left scourge and jumped back on my SB. Heaven forbid, any scourge (or reaper for that matter) starts dumping toughness and/or vitality in favor of power/precision/ferocity. Your pretty much at the mercy of any ranged class (especially SB) if they decide to single you out.

>

> It's like Anet doesn't think these changes through and the consequences that might follow. On paper a power necro class of any sort sounds interesting, but in reality they are sitting ducks against range class that decides to target them. I could get behind the change (maybe), if we were given more mobility.

 

Thats not a problem specific to Necro..... This has been a fundamental problem with Power vs Condi for as long as the game has been around. Condi scales off 2 stats..... and arguably 3 if your count Prc for "on crit" procs. But Power Scales off of 3, and lacking in one substantially drags down the other 2. Only a couple of classes have the ability to completely offset Prc; but it costs them a trait line and choices in that trait line that could be doing other things. Plus freeing Prc for other stats doesn't offering any way to invest toward more damage.

 

Necros specific problem is how its skills are skewed the assumption that its sustain comes almost entirely from damage soaking through HP (and by extension shroud). Even scourge's entire defense set up set up is damage soaking via Barrier, and offsets condition control (which is dodgy implementation to begin with) with the more ubiquitous condition clearing. Barrier is also immune to Crits, so that further solidifies this damage soaking functionality. As a whole, Necro is heavily focused into passive defense...... much of which has been vastly outpaced by the DPS power creep of the Especs. This doesn't work in a meta with so much damage, that the only effective way to sustain through it is damage negation (see warrior) or equal amounts of damage reversal (ie over healing).

 

In short...... this situation demands Necro get access to other sustain models to make up the short fall, or install much stronger damage reduction that can properly scale with incoming damage volume.

[Egorum.9506]

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > Power Scourge has to compete with Power Reaper though for comparison. Does it really match up in any significant way? Just taken for the range on F-skills?

>

> The shade skills and shroud has 10-man target cap, also you have support, more range + better elite skill available.

 

10 target cap is nice, but the hits are less than half reaper's 5 target cap aoes. f1-5 finger roll does less damage than one RS4. reaper has unblockable too

 

i'd say CTTB is better than ghastly breach, as breach requires you to be on top of the enemy zerg to use and has low damage.

 

the only thing power scourge brings over reaper is a little cleansing, barrier, and range

[Kumouta.4985]

More crits means more procs of barbed precision. Investing into power means losing some CDPS to go hybrid, which will be a DPS loss due to scourge having low power modifiers and built in condis, i think

so yeah DP might be the better trait now for all cases

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > Power Scourge has to compete with Power Reaper though for comparison. Does it really match up in any significant way? Just taken for the range on F-skills?

> >

> > The shade skills and shroud has 10-man target cap, also you have support, more range + better elite skill available.

>

> 10 target cap is nice, but the hits are less than half reaper's 5 target cap aoes. f1-5 finger roll does less damage than one RS4. reaper has unblockable too

>

> i'd say CTTB is better than ghastly breach, as breach requires you to be on top of the enemy zerg to use and has low damage.

>

> the only thing power scourge brings over reaper is a little cleansing, barrier, and range

 

And that range factor is huge.

Go getting to the enemy zerg with reaper.you will die before you reach it. If not, you will be eaten by the stuns and dmg inside the zerg.

Honestly reaper can be good, but only if the enemy is really really bad and doesn't know how to cc.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

**Reality check:**

 

Scourge has no access to reaper's decimate defenses (50% free crit off vulnies), cannot go blood magic if he wants damage (spite + soul reaping), and must equip very squishy gear to get any real power damage. His desert shroud has fixed duration and longer cooldown then reaper's shroud - so 50% crit boost from soul reaping doesn't shine that much even if you do slot it.

 

It's damage **or** support for a power scourge.

 

Reaper has not only decimate defenses to allow him huge room for tankier stat sets, but also his own build in, very solid defenses (Rise!, Infusing Terror, Gs #4 blind zone). Not to mention ferocity boost with reaper's onslaught.

 

Reaper doesn't have isses when building power, he has options. There's a shitton of hybrid stats he can successfully use to builds himself into a power tank that will have no issues on the offense and very solid defense. Ol' reapy can trait blood magic just fine, and still have all the crit chance and power he needs to deliver.

 

 

 

 

[Meetshield.1756]

I agree reaper is the dmg choice for necro atm. Mobility, escape, damage reduction, better stability, better mobility removal. And it can still bring boon rip, and range. It lacks in group support.

 

Scourge is essentialy a support class now, and we should start to figure out how best to build it for support. Be it cele hybrid support or full healbot support.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> Barrier is also immune to Crits, so that further solidifies this damage soaking functionality.

 

This part is a lie. It was born off of people not knowing what they were looking at. Barrier has no reduction whatsoever in critical hits or damage of any type.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> I agree reaper is the dmg choice for necro atm. Mobility, escape, damage reduction, better stability, better mobility removal.

 

Do you play on another path than we do?

Mobility and escape on reaper? Every other class has more

Dmg reduction? Spectral armor? Scourge has that as well (rise sux btw, as dmg reduce only works while minions attack or are alive)

 

It's super hard to pull of a decent reaper in wvw. Scourge is just much easier and doesn't die as fast as reaper as you don't have to go melee with that light armor class without no real defenses.

 

Reaper only works if your zerg is already winning but not if it's zerg a slightly ahead, then zerg b slightly ahead. Back and forth.

[Egorum.9506]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> > I agree reaper is the dmg choice for necro atm. Mobility, escape, damage reduction, better stability, better mobility removal.

>

> Do you play on another path than we do?

> Mobility and escape on reaper? Every other class has more

> Dmg reduction? Spectral armor? Scourge has that as well (rise sux btw, as dmg reduce only works while minions attack or are alive)

>

> It's super hard to pull of a decent reaper in wvw. Scourge is just much easier and doesn't die as fast as reaper as you don't have to go melee with that light armor class without no real defenses.

>

> Reaper only works if your zerg is already winning but not if it's zerg a slightly ahead, then zerg b slightly ahead. Back and forth.

 

I mean...

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> > > I agree reaper is the dmg choice for necro atm. Mobility, escape, damage reduction, better stability, better mobility removal.

> >

> > Do you play on another path than we do?

> > Mobility and escape on reaper? Every other class has more

> > Dmg reduction? Spectral armor? Scourge has that as well (rise sux btw, as dmg reduce only works while minions attack or are alive)

> >

> > It's super hard to pull of a decent reaper in wvw. Scourge is just much easier and doesn't die as fast as reaper as you don't have to go melee with that light armor class without no real defenses.

> >

> > Reaper only works if your zerg is already winning but not if it's zerg a slightly ahead, then zerg b slightly ahead. Back and forth.

>

> I mean...

>

 

Well i just watched the first minute or so. Bad mobile internet -.-

 

But there wasn't any zergfights.

40vs40 that's where reaper gets useless (maybe even at smaller numbers)

 

Power scourge is just much more safe, has more corrupts

And does insane ae bombs when combined with any sort of cc.

Sure reaper can do his dmg while moving (RS4)

But if you don't kill people with it you will most likely die.

 

I played my power scourge yesterday. We were greatly outnumbered all the time. And still it was way better than when i played reaper yesterday

I was like always top dmg dealer. Sure arc isn't functioning well in wvw. I know that

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> If you decide that you need to keep Soul Reaping for the 20% cooldown reduction on your F abilities, then the logical choice would be to take Death Perception instead of Dhumfire.

>

> Taking Death Perception means that you have access to essentially free crits during desert shroud, and thus you will have more damage if you increase your power and ferocity.

>

> Some players may decide to take a different trait line than Soul Reaping all together.

>

> If you were running Curses + Soul Reaping, then you will either pickup 50% more crit in shroud, or you will pickup spite and take a huge boost in Axe and power damage. But however you slice it, scourges are headed towards power builds.

>

> The Necro mains have likely already switched to power long before this nerf, but this will bring power scourge to the masses, in my opinion.

>

> It should be noted that there appears to have been a stealth nerf to Scourge Power damage already. The manifest sand shade no longer is tied to weapon damage, and uses unequipped weapon for power, this was a 30-40% nerf to scourge power damage without being mentioned in the patch notes.

 

To start with scourge power was never really a real thing.... Scourge has no real power traits that help it place it as a potential power player.

Feed from corruption is about as good as it gets and even then the boons you steal wont help you gain a major boost in power.

 

In theory power is very washed on scourge. ITs not really suited for it and while people can go "Power works!" its not really made with power in mind. Yes you can force power on scourge but if you put up power scourge your threat potential drops considerably. Shade skills become more lacking in effectiveness and Desert shroud best tool becomes its barrier application. Missing your axe skills when some one comes for you spells defeat.

 

In truth what you end up with is

- Less damage than reaper

- Less overall defense than reaper and core necro

- Less threat once some one realizes your conditions/shades dont do anything

- Slightly more mobility due to utility if you take the sand teleport

- On demand barrier

 

Had the built at least 1 or 2 traits that promote the idea of power scourge it could have worked but they chose not to do that.

 

[Egorum.9506]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> > > > I agree reaper is the dmg choice for necro atm. Mobility, escape, damage reduction, better stability, better mobility removal.

> > >

> > > Do you play on another path than we do?

> > > Mobility and escape on reaper? Every other class has more

> > > Dmg reduction? Spectral armor? Scourge has that as well (rise sux btw, as dmg reduce only works while minions attack or are alive)

> > >

> > > It's super hard to pull of a decent reaper in wvw. Scourge is just much easier and doesn't die as fast as reaper as you don't have to go melee with that light armor class without no real defenses.

> > >

> > > Reaper only works if your zerg is already winning but not if it's zerg a slightly ahead, then zerg b slightly ahead. Back and forth.

> >

> > I mean...

> >

>

> Well i just watched the first minute or so. Bad mobile internet -.-

>

> But there wasn't any zergfights.

> 40vs40 that's where reaper gets useless (maybe even at smaller numbers)

>

> Power scourge is just much more safe, has more corrupts

> And does insane ae bombs when combined with any sort of cc.

> Sure reaper can do his dmg while moving (RS4)

> But if you don't kill people with it you will most likely die.

>

> I played my power scourge yesterday. We were greatly outnumbered all the time. And still it was way better than when i played reaper yesterday

> I was like always top dmg dealer. Sure arc isn't functioning well in wvw. I know that