Early look at the new meta

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> But my whole point is: please let's not cater to those kind of arguments, be it the ones about ppl that find Weavers hard to play or the ones that find Deadeyes hard to play. Let's cater to numbers/statistics/benchmarks and balance on that please (at least as a starting point)! ANet, please! (Edit: which btw, will already bring DE in a lower position as it stands now, for their numbers are far off atm. You don't even need (subjective) argumentation for that one.)

 

Yes, let's do that.

 

Current GW2 raidar for all raid bosses: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/8/All%20raid%20bosses

May 8th (previous balance patch): https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/8/All%20raid%20bosses

 

Old Power top dps: weaver with 26k dps top end versus new top dps Deadeye with 32k dps top end. Not to mention the other new dps builds which surpass the old weaver output. It's called power creep and it's real. That's absolutely besides getting into any details of how hard it is to hit that 99th percentile rotation wise (way easier on Deadeye).

 

Cairn (the closest raid boss to being a golem) new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

Cairn May 8th old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-17194

 

Pretty much copies what the overall dps says, Deadeye leaps and bounds ahead.

 

Let's also look at the condi favoring raid bosses:

 

Matthias new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115

Matthias old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-16115

 

Wait, you are telling me Deadeye is 2nd best dps on a condi favored boss as power class? Must be balanced.

 

Deadeye is going to get toned down purely because of its performance, completely ignoring the simplistic rotation it has.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> That is not my problem. That is Arenanets problem and their balance teams. They have done complete re-hauls of other classes (see mesmer phantasms for example). The fact that initiative is hard to balance or design around is a design error and should not be used as justification for dumbing down the game.

>

 

This.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > But my whole point is: please let's not cater to those kind of arguments, be it the ones about ppl that find Weavers hard to play or the ones that find Deadeyes hard to play. Let's cater to numbers/statistics/benchmarks and balance on that please (at least as a starting point)! ANet, please! (Edit: which btw, will already bring DE in a lower position as it stands now, for their numbers are far off atm. You don't even need (subjective) argumentation for that one.)

>

> Yes, let's do that.

>

> Current GW2 raidar for all raid bosses: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/8/All%20raid%20bosses

> May 8th (previous balance patch): https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/8/All%20raid%20bosses

>

> Old Power top dps: weaver with 26k dps top end versus new top dps Deadeye with 32k dps top end. Not to mention the other new dps builds which surpass the old weaver output. It's called power creep and it's real. That's absolutely besides getting into any details of how hard it is to hit that 99th percentile rotation wise (way easier on Deadeye).

>

> Cairn (the closest raid boss to being a golem) new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

> Cairn May 8th old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-17194

>

> Pretty much copies what the overall dps says, Deadeye leaps and bounds ahead.

>

> Let's also look at the condi favoring raid bosses:

>

> Matthias new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115

> Matthias old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-16115

>

> Wait, you are telling me Deadeye is 2nd best dps on a condi favored boss as power class? Must be balanced.

>

> Deadeye is going to get toned down purely because of its performance, completely ignoring the simplistic rotation it has.

 

Yea, that's exactly what I would suggest! They definitely need toning down, but not because of subjective argumentation, but because of statistics, much like you show us in your post!

 

But ... still being a Necro main by heart (don't play it outside story and map exploring anymore though, cause it's utter uselessness in the PvE endgame), I think it's only fair to suggest that the same changes should come for the Necro class, but just exactly the other way around, of course!

[nsleep.7839]

Can't wait until they fix Meteor Shower and Elementalist is absolute garbage.

 

Also, Cyninja, Matthias isn't a "condi favored" boss, it favors classes that can do their full rotation while moving and/or will lose minimal uptime because of mobility when doing mechanics, which D/D Deadeye happens to be.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

> Can't wait until they fix Meteor Shower and Elementalist is absolute garbage.

>

> Also, Cyninja, Matthias isn't a "condi favored" boss, it favors classes that can do their full rotation while moving and/or will lose minimal uptime because of mobility when doing mechanics, which D/D Deadeye happens to be.

 

I didn't feel to elaborate as to why Matthias favors condi builds, that is obvious to most experienced raiders. Now take a look at which classes make up the top 10 rank wise on that boss. It's:

 

- Soulbeast (condi)

- **Deadeye (power)**

- Renegade (condi)

- Mirage (condi)

- Firebrand (condi)

- Daredevil (condi)

- **Soulbeast (power)**

- Engineer (condi)

- Scourge (condi)

- **Holosmith (power)**

 

I'm not even going to bother putting up the may 8th ranking since those favor condi builds even heavier. So yes, condi classes seem to be less movement affected (since the boss will walk out of aoes etc.). Sure it does matter which mechanic and why a boss favors condi versus power. Doesn't change the fact that thief is way way way out there.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Cairn (the closest raid boss to being a golem) new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

> Cairn May 8th old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-17194

 

> Pretty much copies what the overall dps says, Deadeye leaps and bounds ahead.

 

I wouldnt call 1k above Condi Daredevil and 2k above Condi Mirage leaps and bounds.

 

> Let's also look at the condi favoring raid bosses:

 

> Matthias new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115

> Matthias old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-16115

>

> Wait, you are telling me Deadeye is 2nd best dps on a condi favored boss as power class? Must be balanced.

 

Deadeye doesn't rely on Matthias to stand in Fields, Traps or something else. Of course its DPS will be high.

Its also not the second best DPS option. Soulbeast, Mirage and Condi Engi are still higher and its pretty much even with Condi Renegade and Condi Firebrand.

 

> Deadeye is going to get toned down purely because of its performance, completely ignoring the simplistic rotation it has.

 

Deadeye needs its DPS. It has no cleave, which means that it will be a problem on Sloth and Xera. It relies heavily on conditions on the target, which makes it a problem on Bosses like Samarog and Sloth, which either cleanse the conditions or you cant apply them. If you get fixated at Sloth or KC, you cant stealth.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Cairn (the closest raid boss to being a golem) new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

> > Cairn May 8th old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-17194

>

> > Pretty much copies what the overall dps says, Deadeye leaps and bounds ahead.

>

> I wouldnt call 1k above Condi Daredevil and 2k above Condi Mirage leaps and bounds.

 

Leaps and bounds ahead of other power builds...

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > Let's also look at the condi favoring raid bosses:

>

> > Matthias new: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115

> > Matthias old: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/area-16115

> >

> > Wait, you are telling me Deadeye is 2nd best dps on a condi favored boss as power class? Must be balanced.

>

> Deadeye doesn't rely on Matthias to stand in Fields, Traps or something else. Of course its DPS will be high.

> Its also not the second best DPS option. Soulbeast, Mirage and Condi Engi are still higher and its pretty much even with Condi Renegade and Condi Firebrand.

 

All of which are condi, how does Deadeye fare against other power builds?

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > Deadeye is going to get toned down purely because of its performance, completely ignoring the simplistic rotation it has.

>

> Deadeye needs its DPS. It has no cleave, which means that it will be a problem on Sloth and Xera. It relies heavily on conditions on the target, which makes it a problem on Bosses like Samarog and Sloth, which either cleanse the conditions or you cant apply them. If you get fixated at Sloth or KC, you cant stealth.

>

>

 

My bet is on it getting tuned down. Let's wait and see.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> Deadeye needs its DPS.

 

So does Weaver, but look what happened. And don't forget MS bugfix incoming.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> So does Weaver, but look what happened. And don't forget MS bugfix incoming.

 

And yet Weaver will remain a meta class.

 

>@"Cyninja.2954" said:

>All of which are condi, how does Deadeye fare against other power builds?

Why should that matter? If you want to compare DPS you should compare it with both, power and condi.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> >@"Cyninja.2954" said:

> >All of which are condi, how does Deadeye fare against other power builds?

> Why should that matter? If you want to compare DPS you should compare it with both, power and condi.

 

Because when 1 power class severely outperforms all other power classes on a boss where all the best dps are condi, it speaks to a benefit the class might have or a severe unbalance.

 

In this case it's both.

 

The same applies to condi classes. If one outperforms all other condi classes on a boss where otherwise only power classes are in the top dps spots, rest assured, something is off.

 

Also the fact that Deadeye outperforms all other power classes (and many condi classes) on Matthias is not to be viewed as stand alone fact. It has to be viewed in the bigger picture, hence why I linked multiple logs.

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So does Weaver, but look what happened. And don't forget MS bugfix incoming.

>

> And yet Weaver will remain a meta class.

>

 

Great, so now we balance based on only 1-2 classes? What about the other 7 classes in this game on their power builds?

 

I don't get people arguing:"Well that class has it, so we should have it too." It's a weak argument and does not in any way relate to game balance overall.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So does Weaver, but look what happened. And don't forget MS bugfix incoming.

>

> And yet Weaver will remain a meta class.

 

I wouldn't bet on that before seeing said MS bugfix.

 

Besides, there's a really BAD thing about Weaver in it's current state. Its damage output kinda depends on the damage output of the group. I mean, if you can phase bosses within one burst, Weaver will remain very strong and very meta. If you can't, however, it instantly becomes kinda meh. The falloff is just so big. You fire all your big guns and then you're useless. This makes Weaver even more a "high-end only" pick. Because you can't really rely on pugs to have the required damage to make your build work.

[Vinceman.4572]

Deadeye will definitely be tuned down. It's ridiculous at the moment. I agree to having thief as a pure dps role and that it's dps should be at least very close/near to the top but at the moment it's a no brainer which deals way too much damage too easily.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Because when 1 power class severely outperforms all other power classes on a boss where all the best dps are condi, it speaks to a benefit the class might have or a severe unbalance.

>

> In this case it's both.

>

> The same applies to condi classes. If one outperforms all other condi classes on a boss where otherwise only power classes are in the top dps spots, rest assured, something is off.

>

> Also the fact that Deadeye outperforms all other power classes (and many condi classes) on Matthias is not to be viewed as stand alone fact. It has to be viewed in the bigger picture, hence why I linked multiple logs.

>

> Great, so now we balance based on only 1-2 classes? What about the other 7 classes in this game on their power builds?

>

> I don't get people arguing:"Well that class has it, so we should have it too." It's a weak argument and does not in any way relate to game balance overall.

 

I think its a designflaw that every class should do nearly the same DPS. Thats not balanced. There are classes that have to do more than others because thats literally the only thing they can do.

 

Chrono, Druid and Warrior have a meta spot. Leaves 7 spots for DPS on different bosses.

 

Renegade and Engi are both in a really good spot.

Weaver is in a really good spot.

Thief is in a really good spot.

 

Soulbeast and Dragonhunter may not become meta at a single boss, but they are still in a really good spot. Mostly because of the pretty easy rotation both classes have.

 

The only class that is really underperforming right now is Necro.

 

Why should DPS be the only measurement for balance?

Thief has its problems which will make it non meta on quite some bosses.

 

>@"Feanor.2358" said:

>Besides, there's a really BAD thing about Weaver in it's current state. Its damage output kinda depends on the damage output of the group. I mean, if you can phase bosses >within one burst, Weaver will remain very strong and very meta. If you can't, however, it instantly becomes kinda meh. The falloff is just so big. You fire all your big guns >and then you're useless. This makes Weaver even more a "high-end only" pick. Because you can't really rely on pugs to have the required damage to make your build work.

 

Why should anet balance on a pug level?

You should always balance for the "1%", because they are the ones that will break your game.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> >@"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Besides, there's a really BAD thing about Weaver in it's current state. Its damage output kinda depends on the damage output of the group. I mean, if you can phase bosses >within one burst, Weaver will remain very strong and very meta. If you can't, however, it instantly becomes kinda meh. The falloff is just so big. You fire all your big guns >and then you're useless. This makes Weaver even more a "high-end only" pick. Because you can't really rely on pugs to have the required damage to make your build work.

>

> Why should anet balance on a pug level?

> You should always balance for the "1%", because they are the ones that will break your game.

 

But they're only 1%. And they'll break your game anyway. Why should 99% suffer because of them?

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> But they're only 1%. And they'll break your game anyway. Why should 99% suffer because of them?

 

Because the 99% dont care about a meta comp.

When was the last time you´ve seen an actual meta comp in a pug run?

Most Pug groups play with 2 Druids anyway. Thats not really meta.

Look at the DPS classes. Ive seen Mirage on Samarog. There are people out there that still like to play Guardian.

Pugs simply dont care that much about being optimal.

 

What about that is suffering?

[vaxjani.9073]

I just hope they will only nerf DE and not core and daredevil specs. Those are in a really good spot atm.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > But they're only 1%. And they'll break your game anyway. Why should 99% suffer because of them?

>

> Because the 99% dont care about a meta comp.

> When was the last time you´ve seen an actual meta comp in a pug run?

> Most Pug groups play with 2 Druids anyway. Thats not really meta.

> Look at the DPS classes. Ive seen Mirage on Samarog. There are people out there that still like to play Guardian.

> Pugs simply dont care that much about being optimal.

>

> What about that is suffering?

 

See, that's just it. People should be able to play what they like and get reasonable results for the effort involved. Why would optimality be the measure? People who like to be optimal will be optimal regardless of the meta. What difference does it make if they stack weavers, deadeyes or scourges? They just pick the best option and do that. They always have, they always will. Why would you even try to give *them* choices they're going to disregard and still go for single the optimal one?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Because when 1 power class severely outperforms all other power classes on a boss where all the best dps are condi, it speaks to a benefit the class might have or a severe unbalance.

> >

> > In this case it's both.

> >

> > The same applies to condi classes. If one outperforms all other condi classes on a boss where otherwise only power classes are in the top dps spots, rest assured, something is off.

> >

> > Also the fact that Deadeye outperforms all other power classes (and many condi classes) on Matthias is not to be viewed as stand alone fact. It has to be viewed in the bigger picture, hence why I linked multiple logs.

> >

> > Great, so now we balance based on only 1-2 classes? What about the other 7 classes in this game on their power builds?

> >

> > I don't get people arguing:"Well that class has it, so we should have it too." It's a weak argument and does not in any way relate to game balance overall.

>

> I think its a designflaw that every class should do nearly the same DPS. Thats not balanced. There are classes that have to do more than others because thats literally the only thing they can do.

>

> Chrono, Druid and Warrior have a meta spot. Leaves 7 spots for DPS on different bosses.

>

> Renegade and Engi are both in a really good spot.

> Weaver is in a really good spot.

> Thief is in a really good spot.

>

> Soulbeast and Dragonhunter may not become meta at a single boss, but they are still in a really good spot. Mostly because of the pretty easy rotation both classes have.

>

> The only class that is really underperforming right now is Necro.

>

> Why should DPS be the only measurement for balance?

> Thief has its problems which will make it non meta on quite some bosses.

>

 

To sum up what you said: you don't think dps balance is something to strive for. Fair enough, I disagree but at least now we can drop this part of the issue since you and I have way difderent views as far as balance goes.

 

Next up: simplicity of rotation. I'll assume you are happy with thiefs current difficulty in pve raid content. Im not, Arenanet will decide how and what to do. I doubt they are going to keep this amount of power creep remain, not with another expansion next year to sell.

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> >@"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Besides, there's a really BAD thing about Weaver in it's current state. Its damage output kinda depends on the damage output of the group. I mean, if you can phase bosses >within one burst, Weaver will remain very strong and very meta. If you can't, however, it instantly becomes kinda meh. The falloff is just so big. You fire all your big guns >and then you're useless. This makes Weaver even more a "high-end only" pick. Because you can't really rely on pugs to have the required damage to make your build work.

>

> Why should anet balance on a pug level?

> You should always balance for the "1%", because they are the ones that will break your game.

 

They have to balance for both. Letting a class have a very high peak performance but very difficult rotation is fine (like the old condi engi) since only the 1% of the player base will be able to pull it off. The remaining 99% might try to emulate that, but will reach way lower results. Thus balancing the output with other easier builds.

 

The 1% will always find ways to break the game. It's important to not let every one break it, otherwise loot and reward imbalance sets in.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> See, that's just it. People should be able to play what they like and get reasonable results for the effort involved. Why would optimality be the measure?

 

So you dont tink that 38k on Weaver is a resonable result for the effort involved?

 

> @"Cyninja.2954 " said:

>Next up: simplicity of rotation. I'll assume you are happy with thiefs current difficulty in pve raid content.

 

Im happy with playing Deadeye, because im not that dependant on a good chrono like a Weaver or Holo would be. I think its really good in Pug groups.

I really dislike the overall simplicity of the game. Right now only three rotations feel fun for me. Power Soulbeast, which is still pretty easy, Power Holo and condi engi.

The problem is, that its pretty hard to give thief a somewhat difficult rotation.

Thief doesnt really rely on cooldowns, so you will always only use 1 weapon and maybe a second if you for whatever reason have to range.

 

A solution would be to tie your initiative to your weaponswap and reset it upon swapping. However, i dont really know how that would effect the game overall.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > See, that's just it. People should be able to play what they like and get reasonable results for the effort involved. Why would optimality be the measure?

>

> So you dont tink that 38k on Weaver is a resonable result for the effort involved?

 

No, because you can't pull this number on a small hitbox and most enemies *are* small/medium. So you're looking at 33-34k. 5-6k less than DE for so much more effort isn't reasonable, no.

 

Interesting idea about recharging initiative on weapon swap btw. People seem to be polarized on this, but the "forced swap" resource management is an aspect of the gameplay I really enjoyed on rev.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> No, because you can't pull this number on a small hitbox and most enemies *are* small/medium. So you're looking at 33-34k. 5-6k less than DE for so much more effort >isn't reasonable, no.

 

Yeah, the average Hitbox Diameter is 230 (without 10% Deimos). Its Below Gorseval but above KC. I think the actual effort of swapping Earth - Fire - Fire is debatable.

They should buff lightning storm so its at least worth using and make the rotation more fun again.

 

> Interesting idea about recharging initiative on weapon swap btw. People seem to be polarized on this, but the "forced swap" resource management is an aspect of the >gameplay I really enjoyed on rev.

 

I was actually thinking of Revenant when writing this. Thief is a really spammy class and spamming your weapon skills on CD doesnt really have a downside.

I dont think that a weapon swap would make a rotation more complex, but its a start i guess. Im not a thief main and i´ve rarely played it before the Deadeye buff. I dont know what that would do to the class. Probably overpowered in PvP and WvW.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > No, because you can't pull this number on a small hitbox and most enemies *are* small/medium. So you're looking at 33-34k. 5-6k less than DE for so much more effort >isn't reasonable, no.

>

> Yeah, the average Hitbox Diameter is 230 (without 10% Deimos). Its Below Gorseval but above KC. I think the actual effort of swapping Earth - Fire - Fire is debatable.

> They should buff lightning storm so its at least worth using and make the rotation more fun again.

 

The actual execution was never a problem on anything, except maybe condi engi. And even there it's only a matter of practice. It's the other factors in play that make weaver take effort - not getting interrupted on your big skills, the awful conjure interface, the ground targeting, etc.

 

That being said, I fully agree on your point about Lightning Storm. The rotation *does* feel dumbed down and it's a pity.

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > Interesting idea about recharging initiative on weapon swap btw. People seem to be polarized on this, but the "forced swap" resource management is an aspect of the >gameplay I really enjoyed on rev.

>

> I was actually thinking of Revenant when writing this. Thief is a really spammy class and spamming your weapon skills on CD doesnt really have a downside.

> I dont think that a weapon swap would make a rotation more complex, but its a start i guess. Im not a thief main and i´ve rarely played it before the Deadeye buff. I dont know what that would do to the class. Probably overpowered in PvP and WvW.

 

Me neither. I'd like to hear some thief players weigh in.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The actual execution was never a problem on anything, except maybe condi engi. And even there it's only a matter of practice. It's the other factors in play that make >weaver take effort - not getting interrupted on your big skills, the awful conjure interface, the ground targeting, etc.

 

Tbf. in an organized group Chronos take care of the first part. Thats why DE feels really good to play in Pugs. Its not that reliant on a good chrono.

The Conjure interface is really awful yeah. I dont get your point with the ground targeting. Do you refer to bosses moving out of your fields? If yes, there are really only SH and Matthias that move a lot.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The actual execution was never a problem on anything, except maybe condi engi. And even there it's only a matter of practice. It's the other factors in play that make >weaver take effort - not getting interrupted on your big skills, the awful conjure interface, the ground targeting, etc.

>

> Tbf. in an organized group Chronos take care of the first part. Thats why DE feels really good to play in Pugs. Its not that reliant on a good chrono.

> The Conjure interface is really awful yeah. I dont get your point with the ground targeting. Do you refer to bosses moving out of your fields? If yes, there are really only SH and Matthias that move a lot.

>

 

It's not just about moving out of the fields, although there is that. And yeah, in raids it is not as pronounced. But having played "auto-targeted" builds also, I've come to realize the ground target is a factor. I will often misplace a Lava Font horribly simply because I lost my cursor in the mess of circles and particles. It's something that never happens on a ranger for instance simply because there is no targeting at all there. You press the button and the attack flies straight to the target. All you need to do is press Tab once and you're good for the whole fight.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's not just about moving out of the fields, although there is that. And yeah, in raids it is not as pronounced. But having played "auto-targeted" builds also, I've come to >realize the ground target is a factor. I will often misplace a Lava Font horribly simply because I lost my cursor in the mess of circles and particles. It's something that never >happens on a ranger for instance simply because there is no targeting at all there. You press the button and the attack flies straight to the target. All you need to do is press >Tab once and you're good for the whole fight.

 

Oh okay. Get yolomouse. Should work better that way.