Mirage - Low Damage?

[LadyLuxx.3861]

Heya~

 

I'm wanting to get peoples opinions on the Mirage's/Mesmer damage in general.

I'm personally finding it extremely low, almost living up to "Only useful for portals".

 

I've been playing mesmer for 5 years.. however, I don't think I'll be playing it for much longer.

 

Anyone else experiencing this? in the sense of low damage?

 

[Roda.7468]

Yeah I'm not seeing the damage to justify a risky, 100% selfish dps spec, at least in pve (the game mode I almost exclusively play).

 

I also am hesitant to consider this a PvP spec since core mesmer and shatter chrono are already fairly prominent in that niche, and I am under the impression that elites are supposed to allow classes to explore different niches / broaden the application of the classes. And since core mesmer and chrono both have application in PvP and support, then the only niche mesmer has been neglected in is a simple damage build.

[LadyLuxx.3861]

Glad I'm not the only one. I only play PvE as well and I mean, I'm surprised I can kill the random birds on maps with 1 HP.

[Davi.4920]

Condition mirage has no issues killing hardly anything. I think you need to look at how you are using ambushes and mirage cloak.

[LadyLuxx.3861]

> @Davi.4920 said:

> Condition mirage has no issues killing hardly anything. I think you need to look at how you are using ambushes and mirage cloak.

 

Hmm, what DPS are you pulling?

As my mirage is in full vipers, weapons and accs too.

I'll have a look tho, thanks :)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The mirage suffers from ramp up problems in two dimensions. First is the natural ramp up time conditions have. Second is the ramp-up time that phantasms have. Combine these together, and you end up with a spec that takes forever to start taking forever. If you're in a fight for the long haul, a triple duelist + axe skills mirage can do serviceable DPS. But for general overworld usage, most enemies die before the ramp-up, and the spec is unable to do AoE damage. Even if axe 3 re-targets, the enemy will frequently die before you can save the phantasms.

 

My advice is to stick with power chrono for most open world stuff, and also for most fractals. Though power core mesmer does more damage, the chronomancer has so many QoL features on it that it'll turn out to be far more useful in the long haul.

[Davi.4920]

Thats your issue though. I don't think mirage is a phantasm build, at least in open world. You need to focus on getting as many clones up as possible, then ambush. The trait that give your clones mirage cloak as well bumps up the damage/condition application considerably.

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

[Davi.4920]

I am not on about direct damage but the conditions they apply.

[DeathReign.7821]

I feel that Mirage is more of a PvP/WvW spec than a PvE one. Making your opponent lose you as a target, quick, instant, short distanced repositioning etc are more useful in PvP than PvE.

 

I've only played Mirage in overland and easy dungeons, so take this with a bit of salt, but I feel that the Mirage's dps output in PvE isn't great, but isn't completely trash either. I don't have any dps trackers, so I won't discuss raw numbers, but I'm able to consistently load my target with bursts of 15-25 stacks of confusion and about 10 stacks of torment at once, with a few seconds of downtime (roughly 3-5 stacks of confusion and torment) between each burst.

 

I've not even optimized my build yet; I just slapped on what I used to use in WvW (Traiblazers) and tried to see how many conditions I could consistently overload my target(s) with. I'm currently using Staff + Axe/Torch, but I think Axe/Torch + Scepter/Pistol with Viper or Rabid (for peasants like me) would provide even more dps output.

 

Are there programs for dps checks on GW2? I know ESO has a plethora of add-ons for dps checks, but I wasn't aware that GW2 had them too.

[DeathReign.7821]

> @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

 

Direct damage done by clones is indeed a small fraction of what your character does, but the conditions applied from clones are 1:1 to what your character would output. Thus, clones using ambushes is actually a significant increase in dps.

 

The only exception to this is the scepter ambush, as it specifically states that the conditions applied by clones using the ambush lasts much shorter than the conditions applied by your character's ambush.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I play full viper's condi mirage and the damage is pretty good. Reminds me more or less of the condi ranger. Normal enemies go down in a couple of seconds, veterans in maybe 10. I once killed a champ solo in Frostgorge Sound which took me maybe 1-2 minutes. I mainly build up confusion. It's not the best for PvE since enemies attack slowly, but with 20-30 stacks of confusion it hits pretty hard.

[Cyninja.2954]

Mirage seems to establish itsself more as a spvp and wvw spec. For open world pve its damage output is fine especially since it comes with a ton of survivability.

 

For serious instanced content it's damage output is trash tier (even compared to pre PoF top tier damage builds, not even going to mention some of the overpowered stuff which is happening with PoF builds) unless some miracle happens and we get a serious jump in target golem numbers (it won't).

[Knox.8962]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> Mirage seems to establish itsself more as a spvp and wvw spec. For open world pve its damage output is fine especially since it comes with a ton of survivability.

>

> For serious instanced content it's damage output is trash tier (even compared to pre PoF top tier damage builds, not even going to mention some of the overpowered stuff which is happening with PoF builds) unless some miracle happens and we get a serious jump in target golem numbers (it won't).

 

A/P + A/T condi Mirage is doing over 34k on a golem at this point. I'd hardly call that trash tier compared to pre PoF specs. 34k on a condi mirage would probably be top tier on almost every fight if you exclude the other massively OP PoF specs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5HT1699xbo&ab_channel=%5BLN%5DNightmare

 

The fact that you lose almost no damage in a real-world scenario thanks to dodges not costing you DPS and having phantasms that maintain your damage if you do need to run out for something means you'll be doing extremely consistent damage in the real world compared to other classes that are more impacted by fight mechanics.

 

Either way, 34k+ is nowhere near trash tier.

[Hlord.5940]

> @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

 

i'll just add another salt to injury, the recent greatsword ambush buff: clone ambush damage has been increase by 150%, at this point I am not sure if anet realize that they had nerf clone's damage since the beta.

[Shadu.3701]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > Mirage seems to establish itsself more as a spvp and wvw spec. For open world pve its damage output is fine especially since it comes with a ton of survivability.

> >

> > For serious instanced content it's damage output is trash tier (even compared to pre PoF top tier damage builds, not even going to mention some of the overpowered stuff which is happening with PoF builds) unless some miracle happens and we get a serious jump in target golem numbers (it won't).

>

> A/P + A/T condi Mirage is doing over 34k on a golem at this point. I'd hardly call that trash tier compared to pre PoF specs. 34k on a condi mirage would probably be top tier on almost every fight if you exclude the other massively OP PoF specs.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5HT1699xbo&ab_channel=%5BLN%5DNightmare

>

> The fact that you lose almost no damage in a real-world scenario thanks to dodges not costing you DPS and having phantasms that maintain your damage if you do need to run out for something means you'll be doing extremely consistent damage in the real world compared to other classes that are more impacted by fight mechanics.

>

> Either way, 34k+ is nowhere near trash tier.

 

Give that phantasm build a try in open world pve stuff, the only place that build is decent is bounty hunting and even there the phantasms are likely to die from random stuff. Not to mention that most of the traits of mirage are actually useless for the phantasm build and that it's mostly just the axe having higher dps compared to scepter that we're getting higher dps. Axe is also a melee weapon so we're more likely to be in risk of taking damage, yet we want to use our dodges offensively if you go by golem testing. I've mostly been playing with friends since PoF launched and played a clone based mirage with using ambushes and mirage mirrors, shatters, etc. But compared to things like scourge, firebrand, weaver, renegade, holosmith, the mechanics of the mirage and the special new stuff it brings, not even to mention the damage it does like that is awful compared to others.

 

Mirage cloaks are pretty much ignored in that build, we don't get to shatter and thus rely on others giving us enough uptime on vigor in order to get the bonus from the minor. The only useful traits and mechanics are reduced recharge on axe skills and duration increase on conditions. Ambushes while useful, you're most of the time not up close to the boss in fractals when you need to use a dodge to avoid taking damage. So in what world based on what the elite spec is supposed to give mechanics and traits wise is it in a good place? Just because it improves an old build by a margin yet the new stuff that comes with it and is supposed to make it different aren't worth mentioning and using.

 

Sure in perfect setup groups you might be able to have constant vigor uptime, don't need to dodge as much etc. But those situations are so rare and makes mirage horrible in normal random groups put together for fractals. And while you might not be part of that group of players, most gw2 players do belong to that group and dps and crap should be balanced around those players and not the top tier elite players who do whatever it takes to clear content as fast as possible.

 

This build shouldn't be about phantasms at all, yes it works with it but everything from the traits and mechanics screams that it's not designed for the phantasms. The problem with making the build balanced is that any dps increase given to just the axe and player ambush will just increase the dps of the phantasm build as well. As such they need to make the shatters and clones stronger through the mechanics that come with mirage so the build truly relies on the clones instead of phantasms and then the mechanics will start to make more sense.

[Knox.8962]

I was replying to the post about DPS in serious instanced content. You obviously don't use 3 phantasms in open world PvE.

 

The axe clones are actually not too far off of phantasm damage. For open world, that should make for pretty decent damage as well.

 

Drop phantasmal haste for MtD and you'll be better off popping 2 or 3 clones out and then shattering or swapping to your next target while condis finish off your first one.

[OriOri.8724]

I think mirage has a chance for high damage, but to do so you have to ignore some of its unique mechanics. For instance, its highest damage, from what I've been told so far, relies on using phantasms, and then just personal ambush attacks for a bit more condis from scepter/staff/axe or whatever. Yet this cripples Axe 3, since it only affects axe clones and not phantasms, and it means that in PvE you can't use Axe 2 otherwise it would override one of your phantasms. And the axe auto is fairly weak, so this means using axe kicks you out of one of mirage's top damage builds.......

[Shadu.3701]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> I was replying to the post about DPS in serious instanced content. You obviously don't use 3 phantasms in open world PvE.

>

> The axe clones are actually not too far off of phantasm damage. For open world, that should make for pretty decent damage as well.

>

> Drop phantasmal haste for MtD and you'll be better off popping 2 or 3 clones out and then shattering or swapping to your next target while condis finish off your first one.

 

Fair enough, phantasm is indeed better for instanced content. However it still feels like we're trying to just make a broken elite specialization work in any way possible, even if that means ignoring most of the mechanics that it's supposed to bring. Being so phantasm based also makes us horrible at aoe situations where I just feel useless. Yes we can have good dps on a boss with high uptime, but as soon as an add spawns or multiple adds or the boss just consists of multiple targets we're screwed. Being based around clones would have solved this quite a bit.

 

What do we get from the new elite spec for the phantasm build? A weapon with higher dps and condi's and the chance to swap targets with phantasms, but if you're too late your phantasms are gone or if you're too early the target won't be dead by the time the conditions wear off. The duration on conditions is a nerf compared to chaos, the amount of extra condition damage we get is also a nerf from chaos. The new utilities mostly aren't worth using as you still want the 4 signets and likely feedback or maybe the new retargetting utility. Having to dodge to get ambushes means we either die from not having endurance for when we do need to dodge, or you had to walk away from the target and had to dodge some skill in between and thus couldn't ambush with the axe, if you can swap to your scepter at that point you're lucky, but then you're also stuck to your scepter for a few seconds. With the axe once you got your phantasms going you can't use your 2nd skill as it will kill a phantasm.

 

So while sure we can still do decent dps with the phantasm build the elite spec just feels like a total mess that doesn't come together at all with decent results which leads us to adjusting an old build that already performed decently and just ignore most of the other stuff the elite spec would bring. If we could just use the axe freely without needing mirage I'm pretty sure mirage wouldn't be used with the build and we would stick with chaos instead.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Davi.4920 said:

> I am not on about direct damage but the conditions they apply.

 

The conditions clones apply is pitiful. Just like your own axe.

 

The vast majority of condi damage for any condi mesmer build comes from the pistol phantasm. Your axe skills are such garbage that at best you'll have 2.5k ticks of torment and maybe 1.8k confusion ticks with 3 uses of jaun mixed in. Absolute garbage.

[Knox.8962]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Davi.4920 said:

> > I am not on about direct damage but the conditions they apply.

>

> The conditions clones apply is pitiful. Just like your own axe.

>

> The vast majority of condi damage for any condi mesmer build comes from the pistol phantasm. Your axe skills are such garbage that at best you'll have 2.5k ticks of torment and maybe 1.8k confusion ticks with 3 uses of jaun mixed in. Absolute garbage.

 

Slapping in 3 axe clones instead of pistol phantasms should probably clock in around 30k DPS still. The dropoff isn't that big between the phantasms and the clones for axe mirage.

[Toeofdoom.6152]

I haven't tested all that much but if you switch over to clones completely, you can also switch illusions out for chaos, and then switch to infinite horizon. After doing that, if you spam dodge on cooldown, axe clones seem to match dps with pistol phantasms (both ~13k dps with my gear).

 

The test was pretty much what you'd expect, summon illusions then watch while they slowly kill a golem, so it's not part of a rotation. But at least the clones would be quick to resummon. The ambush does not seem to reset autoattack chains so that's nice.

[Knox.8962]

In all of my testing during the preview weekend, dust cloak was better than IH even if you were using clones. The buffs to ambushes may have changed that, but I don't recall it being all that close before.

 

Using axe clones does let you freely use axe 2 and axe 3 should be a DPS boost over AA when you have 3 axe clones up as well.

[lmaogg.7325]

Mirage felt fine to me, after trying almost all the specs. Pretty sure my mirage kill and mobs faster than my condi renegade and zerker SB.

[Esplen.3940]

> @DeathReign.7821 said:

> > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> > Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

>

> Direct damage done by clones is indeed a small fraction of what your character does, but the conditions applied from clones are 1:1 to what your character would output. Thus, clones using ambushes is actually a significant increase in dps.

>

> The only exception to this is the scepter ambush, as it specifically states that the conditions applied by clones using the ambush lasts much shorter than the conditions applied by your character's ambush.

 

Actually, this exception exists with Scepter and Axe. The only weapon that scales 1:1 with clones is Staff but that's a terrible weapon to be using for condi output.

Scepter clones only auto attack twice, pulling in the weak autos.

Axe clones don't benefit from Mirrored Axes on Ambush, making IH only give them 66% of your condi output.

 

Additionally, Duelist with Sharper Images + Discipline will output more Condi (and damage) than you can. So even if you do start with clones, it's best to end on 3 Duelists + Axe Auto.

 

Fun Fact: 1 Rogue will outdamage 1 Duelist while wearing full Viper's. YMMV due to backstab.