Mirage - Low Damage?

[SprinkKnoT.4057]

I haven't noticed any damage problems on Axe Mirage. I can kill most Veterans in under 10 seconds and can easily get enemies to 30 stacks of confusion. Current Build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAnfWnknBFMjVoBGpBMMjlZjqMAqtkBdJipjz/+7//H

 

Rotation:

Axe2, Axe2, Evade, Axe Ambush, Axe3, Illusionary Ambush, Axe Ambush, Cry of Frustration, Repeat

 

Definitely open to improvements, but it seems fairly solid in open world PvE and way more fun than Chronomancer ever was to me.

[Simonoly.4352]

For condi Mirage in PvE it's not...completely awful, but it's really not much different than base condi Mesmer/chrono which feels kind of wrong when this elite spec is supposed to be the purely selfish condi dps spec and nothing else really.

 

I think the main problem in particular lies with Axe. Lingering Thoughts is decent and doesn't need anything, but everything else does. Imaginary Axes in particular is just awful - I can't understand the point of ever using your Mirage Cloak for this skill. It does pathetic damage and is incredibly slow and unpredictable. It's not even fun to cast and land.

[OriOri.8724]

> @SprinkKnoT.4057 said:

> I haven't noticed any damage problems on Axe Mirage. I can kill most Veterans in under 10 seconds and can easily get enemies to 30 stacks of confusion. Current Build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAnfWnknBFMjVoBGpBMMjlZjqMAqtkBdJipjz/+7//H

>

> Rotation:

> Axe2, Axe2, Evade, Axe Ambush, Axe3, Illusionary Ambush, Axe Ambush, Cry of Frustration, Repeat

>

> Definitely open to improvements, but it seems fairly solid in open world PvE and way more fun than Chronomancer ever was to me.

 

Your rotation doesn't use torch, so why not run focus for projectile hate and grouping enemies together (plus swiftness for when in combat)?

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Roda.7468 said:

> Yeah I'm not seeing the damage to justify a risky, 100% selfish dps spec, at least in pve (the game mode I almost exclusively play).

 

This.

[SprinkKnoT.4057]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

>

> Your rotation doesn't use torch, so why not run focus for projectile hate and grouping enemies together (plus swiftness for when in combat)?

 

I might, is probably a good idea just so I don't have to level up another crafting profession to get an ascended. I like using Torch4 to disengage and get some burning, but in retrospect, since phantasms aren't a big part of the build, Warden will be more situationally useful than Mage and curtain is a good set up for axe ambush.

[Lalainnia.3598]

I just want axe 2 to not kill a phantasm when you have 3 phants up plz and ty!

[Esplen.3940]

> @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> I just want axe 2 to not kill a phantasm when you have 3 phants up plz and ty!

 

And sword ambush...

[lmaogg.7325]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> > I just want axe 2 to not kill a phantasm when you have 3 phants up plz and ty!

>

> And sword ambush...

 

And clones actually hitting my target instead of running off and hit some random add

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > Mirage seems to establish itsself more as a spvp and wvw spec. For open world pve its damage output is fine especially since it comes with a ton of survivability.

> >

> > For serious instanced content it's damage output is trash tier (even compared to pre PoF top tier damage builds, not even going to mention some of the overpowered stuff which is happening with PoF builds) unless some miracle happens and we get a serious jump in target golem numbers (it won't).

>

> A/P + A/T condi Mirage is doing over 34k on a golem at this point. I'd hardly call that trash tier compared to pre PoF specs. 34k on a condi mirage would probably be top tier on almost every fight if you exclude the other massively OP PoF specs.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5HT1699xbo&ab_channel=%5BLN%5DNightmare

>

> The fact that you lose almost no damage in a real-world scenario thanks to dodges not costing you DPS and having phantasms that maintain your damage if you do need to run out for something means you'll be doing extremely consistent damage in the real world compared to other classes that are more impacted by fight mechanics.

>

> Either way, 34k+ is nowhere near trash tier.

 

Considering that Mirage brings absolutely 0, I'll repeat that 0!!! utility and/or worthwhile crowd control, yes the damage numbers are trash tier.

 

That said, even with the shorter rampup time Mirage takes a while to get peak damage and remains significantly slower than pre PoF DH and Tempest both of which can precast their rotation.

 

Not even talking about rotation complexcity or loss of illusions due to damage from bosses.

 

 

[Knox.8962]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> Considering that Mirage brings absolutely 0, I'll repeat that 0!!! utility and/or worthwhile crowd control, yes the damage numbers are trash tier.

>

> That said, even with the shorter rampup time Mirage takes a while to get peak damage and remains significantly slower than pre PoF DH and Tempest both of which can precast their rotation.

>

> Not even talking about rotation complexcity or loss of illusions due to damage from bosses.

So Summoning 3 phantasms and using your AA is a complex rotation?

 

Mirage, just like basically every other spec out there, can use things outside of the normal rotation to provide utility. They can drop a utility skill for feedback or use a focus OH for the pull, both of which are pretty common utility jobs covered by DPS mesmer pre-PoF.

 

Mirage ramp-up is very fast. The "slower than a zerk DH" ramp is more than made up for by the fact that you basically do way more damage while handling any actual mechanics from a real fight. Almost all of the things that groups normally try to distort, you get to ignore just by dodging. All of the things that made the condi mesmer a great option for fights like Matthias still exist, but now the mirage just does 25-30% more damage, so it is still a reasonable option for fights that don't have tons of punishing mechanics to deal with.

 

It isn't going to compete with the 40k+ DPS club, which is likely due for nerfs, but it carries the DPS from the golem to a real fight extremely well due to the Mirage mechanics and the phantasms doing a large portion of your DPS.

[Zenith.7301]

I don't know why people keep saying DH can't handle mechanics when guardian scepter is probably one of the strongest ranged weapons in the game and is part of their weapon loadout. Guardian scepter does more DPS than mesmer mainhand sword.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> >

> > Considering that Mirage brings absolutely 0, I'll repeat that 0!!! utility and/or worthwhile crowd control, yes the damage numbers are trash tier.

> >

> > That said, even with the shorter rampup time Mirage takes a while to get peak damage and remains significantly slower than pre PoF DH and Tempest both of which can precast their rotation.

> >

> > Not even talking about rotation complexcity or loss of illusions due to damage from bosses.

> So Summoning 3 phantasms and using your AA is a complex rotation?

>

> Mirage, just like basically every other spec out there, can use things outside of the normal rotation to provide utility. They can drop a utility skill for feedback or use a focus OH for the pull, both of which are pretty common utility jobs covered by DPS mesmer pre-PoF.

>

> Mirage ramp-up is very fast. The "slower than a zerk DH" ramp is more than made up for by the fact that you basically do way more damage while handling any actual mechanics from a real fight. Almost all of the things that groups normally try to distort, you get to ignore just by dodging. All of the things that made the condi mesmer a great option for fights like Matthias still exist, but now the mirage just does 25-30% more damage, so it is still a reasonable option for fights that don't have tons of punishing mechanics to deal with.

>

> It isn't going to compete with the 40k+ DPS club, which is likely due for nerfs, but it carries the DPS from the golem to a real fight extremely well due to the Mirage mechanics and the phantasms doing a large portion of your DPS.

 

Summoning 3 phantasms takes how long? Exactly. So it's useful on any fights where you have a permanent damage on boss without much target switching. Lot's of boss fights in the game like that, or not.

 

Exchanging any utility skills on Mirage is a severe damage reduction unlike say DH which brings passive aegis, passive healing, Elite trap for massive cc break, etcetc

Or tempest which brings way more useful utilities like rebound for some situations. Losing signets is huge on Mirage damage.

 

You do not do more damge than a DH and even less so burst. Stop smoking whatever you are smoking.

 

Condi dps for matthias had nothing to do with the condi numbers but with the mechanics of the fight. So yes, Mirage remains a solid options for the 1-2 fights where you could cheese your way to usefulness.

 

So you can dodge the mechanics which otherwise get distorted. Very useful considering the rest of your team still requires the distort or has to do the fight without distortion in which case it is of significantly less use to you. I guess if you have bad distortion chronos having a backup is safe, great. Oh but you do get to move a lot more since your dodges do not move you at all except forward.

[Esplen.3940]

@"Knox.8962"

 

The Mirage rotation isn't the same as the Power Mesmer rotation.

 

AA + timed dodges (not to interrupt AA chain) + Axe3 (not to interrupt AA chain) + Crystal Sands (not to interrupt AA chain) + Jaunt means you're constantly pressing buttons.

 

Fun note: Jaunt and Crystal Sands have no target cap. They let you tag all the Choya attacking Amnoon.

 

[Roda.7468]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Knox.8962 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > >

> > > Considering that Mirage brings absolutely 0, I'll repeat that 0!!! utility and/or worthwhile crowd control, yes the damage numbers are trash tier.

> > >

> > > That said, even with the shorter rampup time Mirage takes a while to get peak damage and remains significantly slower than pre PoF DH and Tempest both of which can precast their rotation.

> > >

> > > Not even talking about rotation complexcity or loss of illusions due to damage from bosses.

> > So Summoning 3 phantasms and using your AA is a complex rotation?

> >

> > Mirage, just like basically every other spec out there, can use things outside of the normal rotation to provide utility. They can drop a utility skill for feedback or use a focus OH for the pull, both of which are pretty common utility jobs covered by DPS mesmer pre-PoF.

> >

> > Mirage ramp-up is very fast. The "slower than a zerk DH" ramp is more than made up for by the fact that you basically do way more damage while handling any actual mechanics from a real fight. Almost all of the things that groups normally try to distort, you get to ignore just by dodging. All of the things that made the condi mesmer a great option for fights like Matthias still exist, but now the mirage just does 25-30% more damage, so it is still a reasonable option for fights that don't have tons of punishing mechanics to deal with.

> >

> > It isn't going to compete with the 40k+ DPS club, which is likely due for nerfs, but it carries the DPS from the golem to a real fight extremely well due to the Mirage mechanics and the phantasms doing a large portion of your DPS.

>

> Exchanging any utility skills on Mirage is a severe damage reduction unlike say DH which brings passive aegis, passive healing, Elite trap for massive cc break, etcetc

> Or tempest which brings way more useful utilities like rebound for some situations. Losing signets is huge on Mirage damage.

 

This is why I've always been of the mind of anet removing all these passive flat damage boosts and applying them directly to the things they're supposed to effect since they're usually mandatory for the builds they would affect.

 

They're not interesting choices at all.

 

Doing condi damage? Whelp, you have to take the condi damage and duration passive utilities or else you're gimping every other skill you use.

Having phantasms persist? Guess you gotta take all the traits that either give you a passive stat boost while they're up AND all the traits that give them passive stat/damage/attack rate boosts as well!

Using axes? That means you have to take the axe trait or else why even bother?

Same with pistol.

And sword.

And scepter feels like you're stirring molasses if you don't take its trait.

 

For condi builds you have the option of a singular utility slot to change around as you need, and that's complete and utterly boring bull.

 

 

Sorry kind of irrelevant rant. It's been bothering me for a while and I'm too much of a coward to make my own thread >3>;;

[Esplen.3940]

Scepter trait is kinda bad because it's just CDR in group content. Quickness hits the attack speed cap.

[Roda.7468]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Scepter trait is kinda bad because it's just CDR in group content. Quickness hits the attack speed cap.

 

That's fair, but if you're soloing it's a slog. X_X

It feels bad and it feels like it's designed to feel bad so that you have to take that trait if you don't have copious amounts of quickness.

[Knox.8962]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> You do not do more damge than a DH and even less so burst. Stop smoking whatever you are smoking.

The qT small hitbox number for DH pre-patch was 33,776. The qT guys have parsed Condi Mirage on a golem at 34.2k. I'm pretty sure 34.2k is bigger than 33.8k. Feel free to double check my math on that though.

 

As for fights where you have to do lots of target switching, there are only a few where you have to swap targets in a way that matters.

 

* VG your illusions will just re-target during the split phases

* Sabetha your illusions will retarget when she leaves

* Gorseval, you'd probably want to actually use the retargeting feature that handily comes with the Axe

* Sloth you don't retarget

* Matthias you don't retarget

* KC your clones will retarget when he leaves the arena

* Xera you don't retarget

* Cairn, no retargeting

* MO you can skip retargeting

* Samarog you'd want to use the Axe 3 retarget on phase change

* Deimos you don't need to retarget.

 

So I'm seeing 2 fights where you'd want to use the retarget feature of axe 3, and a bunch of other fights where you just let your phantasms pew pew non-stop until they die.

 

As for how long the ramp up takes to get 3 phantasms, you cast phantasmal mage or lingering thoughts (I haven't tested which one of those ends up being better for initial ramp-up yet) and then swap to pistol, hit Duelist, SoE, Duelist. That's maybe 3 seconds with quickness up? That would have you running at about 95% of full tilt DPS. After 12 seconds, you can swap out the clone or torch guy for a 3rd duelist. At that point you're fully ramped up. Incidentally, those ramp-up times are accounted for in the Golem DPS numbers. So the longer a fight goes, the less that 'slow' ramp-up matters.

[CrownOfSorrow.6137]

Anyone noticed confusion damage seems to have reverted to its pre-buffed state? Could be wrong...

 

Also yeah it felt a bit weak but then I ran a few fractals and I was pulling top dps with full ascended viper and some berzerker trinkets (mes aint my main so i havent switched over all the proper gear).

 

I guess for noob level stuff mirage is good reliable dps with lots of ways to dodge and not die.

[Gulesave.5073]

I'm running axe/torch, and have no problems with damage. I can't say mirage has added much to that, however the reduced downtime and extra combo finishers are appreciated nonetheless. It might be more fun if I wasn't saddled with signets, but hey, there we are.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * VG your illusions will just re-target during the split phases

 

If you fight him in rage of one of his split selfes. Eitherway, the raid now has to adapt to your positioning which is a disadvantage of itsself.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Sabetha your illusions will retarget when she leaves

 

And will target whatever is nearest which is essentially useless if they go for adds since those get cleaved down. Sure your numbers are nice on arc, but is all the damage useful?

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Gorseval, you'd probably want to actually use the retargeting feature that handily comes with the Axe

 

Your lack of cc makes this very hard on other classes. You essentially force other classes to take more cc, your raid loses damge.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Sloth you don't retarget

 

You are essentially useless against clearing adds. Some other dps has to cover that duty for you.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Matthias you don't retarget

 

Matthias as mentioned benefits mesmer mechanics a lot.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * KC your clones will retarget when he leaves the arena

 

Unless no add is up, or you lose a lot of damage. Especially here a tempest or DH will outshine you severly since they can precast and the majority of their damage comes at the beginning of their rotation. Also your lack of cc makes it harder on other dps.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Xera you don't retarget

 

Unless you come back from the flying phase, or get ported. You also to shit cleave damage, again someone has to cover for you.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Cairn, no retargeting

 

Same as mattias, very in favor of mesmer. Sure works, and so does power mesmer who brings 1 utility and elite slot if need be to cover for bad quickness uptime if need be.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * MO you can skip retargeting

 

And again someone has to cover for your lack of cleave.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Samarog you'd want to use the Axe 3 retarget on phase change

 

Sure, the fight lends itsself to mesmer. Power mesmer does really well here too, read what I wrote about that for Cairn. Power mesmer brings utility and elite.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> * Deimos you don't need to retarget.

 

What?

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

> So I'm seeing 2 fights where you'd want to use the retarget feature of axe 3, and a bunch of other fights where you just let your phantasms pew pew non-stop until they die.

 

You're seeing what you want to see. Has nothing to do with raid reality though.

 

Unlike you, I've seen DH in raids on live targets with very decent people. DH was top dps in most situations. The ease of the rotation combined with it's very bursty damage and it being upfront did most of the job. Hitting a boss for 10-15 seconds during damage phases is very different to whacking a target golem for 2 minutes. Feel free to disprove me.

 

> @Knox.8962 said:

 

> As for how long the ramp up takes to get 3 phantasms, you cast phantasmal mage or lingering thoughts (I haven't tested which one of those ends up being better for initial ramp-up yet) and then swap to pistol, hit Duelist, SoE, Duelist. That's maybe 3 seconds with quickness up? That would have you running at about 95% of full tilt DPS. After 12 seconds, you can swap out the clone or torch guy for a 3rd duelist. At that point you're fully ramped up. Incidentally, those ramp-up times are accounted for in the Golem DPS numbers. So the longer a fight goes, the less that 'slow' ramp-up matters.

 

How many boss fights in game at the moment have longer than 15 second damage phases on bosses? Maybe half. Some of those you need some cleave which you do not provide. So we are back to Mirage being sort of useful against: Matthias, Cairn and Samarog. All fights where power mesmer was already very close to the Mirage numbers (with a free utility and elite slot) and was not recommended for any of the fights according to qtfy.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @DeathReign.7821 said:

> > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> > Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

>

> Direct damage done by clones is indeed a small fraction of what your character does, but the conditions applied from clones are 1:1 to what your character would output. Thus, clones using ambushes is actually a significant increase in dps.

>

> The only exception to this is the scepter ambush, as it specifically states that the conditions applied by clones using the ambush lasts much shorter than the conditions applied by your character's ambush.

 

Clone conditions have half the duration.

[Levetty.1279]

Are we really back to arguing that setting up 3 phantasms is a good dps mechanic even though we have plenty of in game experience to show that its not?

[Knox.8962]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> How many boss fights in game at the moment have longer than 15 second damage phases on bosses? Maybe half. Some of those you need some cleave which you do not provide. So we are back to Mirage being sort of useful against: Matthias, Cairn and Samarog. All fights where power mesmer was already very close to the Mirage numbers (with a free utility and elite slot) and was not recommended for any of the fights according to qtfy.

 

All of those are at least defensible arguments. However you keep moving the goalposts here. You started off with "Mirage damage is trash tier" and went to "Mirage damage is trash tier considering that is has no CC or utility" to "It has to give up too much to take any utility or CC" and now we're at "It ramps up too slow and doesn't burst as hard as Staff ele or DH" or "The cleave damage is too low and target swaps are too punishing"

 

You don't like Mirage. I get it. But lets stop trying to pretend you don't like it because it has bad damage. If you want to claim that the cleave damage is too low or utility choices are too critical to swap out for group utility, you can make a reasonable arguments about that, but the damage is higher than every single HoT spec other than Condi DD, Condi Tempest and Condi Zerker.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > How many boss fights in game at the moment have longer than 15 second damage phases on bosses? Maybe half. Some of those you need some cleave which you do not provide. So we are back to Mirage being sort of useful against: Matthias, Cairn and Samarog. All fights where power mesmer was already very close to the Mirage numbers (with a free utility and elite slot) and was not recommended for any of the fights according to qtfy.

>

> All of those are at least defensible arguments. However you keep moving the goalposts here. You started off with "Mirage damage is trash tier" and went to "Mirage damage is trash tier considering that is has no CC or utility" to "It has to give up too much to take any utility or CC" and now we're at "It ramps up too slow and doesn't burst as hard as Staff ele or DH" or "The cleave damage is too low and target swaps are too punishing"

>

> You don't like Mirage. I get it. But lets stop trying to pretend you don't like it because it has bad damage. If you want to claim that the cleave damage is too low or utility choices are too critical to swap out for group utility, you can make a reasonable arguments about that, but the damage is higher than every single HoT spec other than Condi DD, Condi Tempest and Condi Zerker.

 

I was keeping it simple, fine I'll be more specific:

 

**Mirage is a very egoistic spec which provides nearly no utility or group benefit and barely outperforms the base class and is miles behind the classes other elite option which goes exactly the opposite way. While being this useless it provides decent damage numbers compared to outdated specs and trash tier damage numbers compared to current specs. Overall rating for semi challenging instanced content: trash tier.**

 

Better?

 

Oh and I don't hate Mirage. On the contrary, with the last batch of changes it is quite fun and I've enjoyed playing my mesmer without worrying about dying (since I run Trailblazer and it seems arenanet wants us to run some toughness on Mirage). I'm just capable to differentiate between performance and fun. The spec is great fun for open worlding around and enjoying yourself (and might work quite well in wvw and spvp), it's just not cutting it in a hardcore pve instanced content enviroment.

[Knox.8962]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree about the relative power level of the spec.