Mirage - Low Damage?

[Esplen.3940]

@"Cyninja.2954" You do know if there's no target up for an illusion when their target disappears, they still stay and wait. On Sabetha, the "adds" consist of a miniboss and small adds that die quickly, meaning your phants will latch onto the miniboss until Sabetha re-appears.

 

For VG, the only issue will be if you end in the condi phase as a Power Mesmer (Swordsman will latch onto a Seeker then potentially the Red Guardian), otherwise they latch onto Seekers, then a Guardian (worst case scenario they don't latch and just wait for VG to come back).

 

KC they'll just persist. It won't matter who or what they target as there's a lot of downtime while waiting for KC to return. They can't even push the orb if they decide to latch onto it.

 

Tbh, I'd only bring non Chrono Mes to VG, Sab, KC, Matt, Xera, and all of Wing 4 bar Deimos.

For Mirage, I wouldn't bring it anywhere, but if I had to bring it anywhere, it'd be Sam and Gors for illusion retarget (since the bosses stay in the arena and are invulnerable).

 

[Aluren.1896]

So how are people getting perma vigor for that 150 condition damage? How is that a realistic buff to use during raid dps testing?

[Zenith.7301]

I find that scourge is just a better version of mirage. Barrier is rather strong utility, and the damage scourge can do comes from range and their ability to frontload condi was improved. They can provide boons or remove boons (only power mesmer with sword auto can remove boons until they revamp phantasms so we can use utility phantasms). Condi mes is stuck with 2 signets for throughput and the remaining utility options are all lackluster.

 

Mirage is fun because of the mobility and animations, but the numbers and utter lack of utility coupled with the obsolete mirrors, phantasm ramp up and lack of cleave just gut the spec.

 

Ultimately, mirage addressed nothing ailing the core mesmer profession outside axe retargeting, and I have to wonder if we can make illusions persist onto other targets, why does that feature have to be locked behind an elite.

 

Why do illusions have to despawn on mob death in PvE instead of choosing the current target you're attacking? It's such a dumb and pointless handicap on the class.

 

I'm also wondering why Jaunt can't remove 2 conditions per cast at the very least.

[LadyLuxx.3861]

Thank you all for the replies! Some interesting things have been said.

Going to play around with my build more today to see if I can increase my damage output.

Will keep you all posted.

[novas.1845]

I was having fun with mirage until I decided to go check out scourge and it was like night and day so much easier doing things and things were dying faster. I'm not someone who is great at figuring out the best possible builds so I still think I need to play with mirage a bit more. But even someone as casual as myself can tell the damage is a bit underwhelming. It's sure fun to play though I will give it that. Axe is fun when it's working properly for me and not delayed for whatever reason.

[Cantatus.4065]

Sort of seems like after all the complaints about how much utility Chronomancer provides, they went as far as they could in the opposite direction as Mirage. I don't mind having an elite spec that's more selfish, but I can understand why it wouldn't be as desirable in raids/fractals, but then does every spec need to be optimal at every part of the game? Not saying Mirage needs no work though.

 

Really, I think the big issue with us bringing any sort of utility is one of our core mechanics is tied into utility slots. Mirrors are supposed to be a central to the class's design and we have four ways of creating them - two of which are utility skills. Then the trait that generates mirrors has a 50 second refresh time and the last is our heal which you're really not going to use to make mirrors. So if you want to use mirrors, you're very limited in bringing much of anything else (though I really don't know that mirrors are really useful enough to make that choice, but it does seem like a flaw if they ever get buffed).

 

> @Shadu.3701 said:

>Having to dodge to get ambushes means we either die from not having endurance for when we do need to dodge, or you had to walk away from the target and had to dodge some skill in between and thus couldn't ambush with the axe, if you can swap to your scepter at that point you're lucky, but then you're also stuck to your scepter for a few seconds. With the axe once you got your phantasms going you can't use your 2nd skill as it will kill a phantasm.

 

Though it doesn't really seem like what it was designed for, I've been using Jaunt as a psuedo-dodge. It usually refreshes fast enough to have available if needed.

 

 

[Sharkey.9805]

If you think mirage is doing fantastic damage in PvE, try playing as any other new spec. Spellbreaker and deadeye are close, but they're all comparable or better while providing significant utility and a unique playstyle that doesn't cannibalize the aspects of the class that allow it to do damage in the process.

 

Mirage is bad in groups, yo. Fun in PvP, good for WvW roaming, but they've got a ways to go before it's usable in PvE.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Aluren.1896 said:

> So how are people getting perma vigor for that 150 condition damage? How is that a realistic buff to use during raid dps testing?

 

"Realistic" tests aren't realistic. It's just some buzz word someone came up with because they didn't have all the fancy buffs on their bar (the ones that affect healing power and boon duration) to be more "realistic". Of course, you don't maintain 100% GotL x5 or GoE, and you also have some odd buffs like Venoms (which count as your DPS) and Arcane Power.

 

Of course, even with all of that said and done, you end up with a lot lower DPS value in actual raids because even the most cheese-able Golem-like bosses (see: Mursaat Overseer) require some mechanics that lower your total output. Every mechanic thrown at you will lower your DPS (with the exception of KC who increases your DPS by giving people DPS spikes upward of 300k).

 

At the end of the day, the benchmark is there to compare how well you do to 100% performance, even if the 100% mark is really at around 110% (and therefore unreachable).

[Lalainnia.3598]

> @Aluren.1896 said:

> So how are people getting perma vigor for that 150 condition damage? How is that a realistic buff to use during raid dps testing?

 

A druid swapping their pet near u and traited Spirited Arrival with and a chrono extending it with signet of inspiration. Sun spirit traited with Nature's Vengeance also pulses 1 second of vigor every 3 seconds. Then tie that in with the duelist trait Critical Infusion. Those are the sources I know of at least there might be more.

[Aluren.1896]

So two classes giving Mirage buffs for vigor? Critical Infusion only counts for yourself with a 34% crit chance on most Viper builds...with no access to shatter on vigor otherwise you lose pistol dps. Sounds really conditional.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

 

> At the end of the day, the benchmark is there to compare how well you do to 100% performance, even if the 100% mark is really at around 110% (and therefore unreachable).

 

Then why is it being used as a justification that mirage has high damage if it is unreachable? 150 condition damage is about 9% of a full viper build. That means that there can be up to 9% variability in the 34k video posted above and that is at impossibly best.

 

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I don't feel like I'm playing anything different. The elite is just more of the same old same old weapon majority will be core weapons still using core utilities.

 

It sometimes feels like nothing new was added to the game with these xpacks.

 

Thread seems to be about mesmer in general due to this. However on the topic of power youre probably running gsword so the new ambush does add damage to the weaponset.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Aluren.1896 said:

> So two classes giving Mirage buffs for vigor? Critical Infusion only counts for yourself with a 34% crit chance on most Viper builds...with no access to shatter on vigor otherwise you lose pistol dps. Sounds really conditional.

>

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

>

> > At the end of the day, the benchmark is there to compare how well you do to 100% performance, even if the 100% mark is really at around 110% (and therefore unreachable).

>

> Then why is it being used as a justification that mirage has high damage if it is unreachable? 150 condition damage is about 9% of a full viper build. That means that there can be up to 9% variability in the 34k video posted above and that is at impossibly best.

>

 

Eyeball propaganda. Everytime I use numbers I list out the reasons why they aren't very practical, but a lot of people don't realize just how impractical good numbers on Mirage really are. The guy who got 30k+ dps didn't show us his raid logs (for real bosses) even though he had them, so maybe he saw that it was terrible and didn't want to show? I don't know.

[musu.9205]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Aluren.1896 said:

> > So two classes giving Mirage buffs for vigor? Critical Infusion only counts for yourself with a 34% crit chance on most Viper builds...with no access to shatter on vigor otherwise you lose pistol dps. Sounds really conditional.

> >

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> >

> > > At the end of the day, the benchmark is there to compare how well you do to 100% performance, even if the 100% mark is really at around 110% (and therefore unreachable).

> >

> > Then why is it being used as a justification that mirage has high damage if it is unreachable? 150 condition damage is about 9% of a full viper build. That means that there can be up to 9% variability in the 34k video posted above and that is at impossibly best.

> >

>

> Eyeball propaganda. Everytime I use numbers I list out the reasons why they aren't very practical, but a lot of people don't realize just how impractical good numbers on Mirage really are. The guy who got 30k+ dps didn't show us his raid logs (for real bosses) even though he had them, so maybe he saw that it was terrible and didn't want to show? I don't know.

 

beside number , in raid people still have to use tedious way to get that number . remember the time dd thief and sword guard have to cancel AA for better numbers , mirage is far worse than that , not to mention its not much different than a core condi mes which is boring as hell to play while provide almost zero aoe .

 

on top of that , condi reaper has good number too ,but how messy its dps rotation is in actual raid fight .but for reaper , if they mess up they lose their dps , but for mirage , axe 3 could cause trouble for whole squad . im aware that many classes have one or two such skills , but they are not tied to the main function like target swap .

 

also if anet insist target swap function stays with mirage , this problem will never be fixed . its just sad after 5 years we got a fix for main class through elite while guard gets fixed spirit weapon .

[musu.9205]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Aluren.1896 said:

> > So two classes giving Mirage buffs for vigor? Critical Infusion only counts for yourself with a 34% crit chance on most Viper builds...with no access to shatter on vigor otherwise you lose pistol dps. Sounds really conditional.

> >

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> >

> > > At the end of the day, the benchmark is there to compare how well you do to 100% performance, even if the 100% mark is really at around 110% (and therefore unreachable).

> >

> > Then why is it being used as a justification that mirage has high damage if it is unreachable? 150 condition damage is about 9% of a full viper build. That means that there can be up to 9% variability in the 34k video posted above and that is at impossibly best.

> >

>

> Eyeball propaganda. Everytime I use numbers I list out the reasons why they aren't very practical, but a lot of people don't realize just how impractical good numbers on Mirage really are. The guy who got 30k+ dps didn't show us his raid logs (for real bosses) even though he had them, so maybe he saw that it was terrible and didn't want to show? I don't know.

 

also we have to think about that 40k + builds are not new dps standard , if anet did not nerf it soonish , have fun to be trash tier not worth to test tier again ,

[Knox.8962]

> @Aluren.1896 said:

> So two classes giving Mirage buffs for vigor? Critical Infusion only counts for yourself with a 34% crit chance on most Viper builds...with no access to shatter on vigor otherwise you lose pistol dps. Sounds really conditional.

>

 

In a raid scenario, you'll be sitting on 72.5% crit chance in full viper gear with group buffs (banners + spotter + fury).

 

> @Aluren.1896 said:

> Then why is it being used as a justification that mirage has high damage if it is unreachable? 150 condition damage is about 9% of a full viper build. That means that there can be up to 9% variability in the 34k video posted above and that is at impossibly best.

A raid buffed condi mirage would have 3084 condi damage. At a 72.5% crit chance, you'll self supply about 48.6% vigor from Critical Infusion. That makes the trait worth 75 Condi damage basically at a minimum. Any additional vigor uptime you get increases that number.

 

Bleed tick at 50% uptime Vigor (3159 Condi Damage) - 211.54

Bleed tick at 100% uptime Vigor (3234 Condi Damage) - 216.04

The difference between 50% uptime and 100% uptime comes out to be 2.13% of your condition damage (which is in the ballpark of 80% of your damage)

 

So the difference between the 100% uptime and 50% uptime you're virtually guaranteed to have is essentially a 1.67% DPS delta. That works out to be 570 DPS out of our 34.2k number. In a typical raid, you'll get some vigor from chronos sharing boons and druids depending on the builds, so the real delta is probably smaller than that %.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> @"Cyninja.2954" You do know if there's no target up for an illusion when their target disappears, they still stay and wait. On Sabetha, the "adds" consist of a miniboss and small adds that die quickly, meaning your phants will latch onto the miniboss until Sabetha re-appears.

 

I know, doesn't change anything I said. If your illusions target non relevant adds even for only 1 attack, you have not useful dps. Most other dps classes can cleave even with their limited melee attackscoming from the player character. This is even more true if chronos pull the adds to the boss with focus 4. Meanwhile your illusions will do damage to stuff which would usually just get cleaved down resulting in a net loss of damage on the boss or miniboss target.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> For VG, the only issue will be if you end in the condi phase as a Power Mesmer (Swordsman will latch onto a Seeker then potentially the Red Guardian), otherwise they latch onto Seekers, then a Guardian (worst case scenario they don't latch and just wait for VG to come back).

 

Not a huge issue, yet an issue no? When your golem dps number is below other classes golem dps number, any loss in performance is relevant.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> KC they'll just persist. It won't matter who or what they target as there's a lot of downtime while waiting for KC to return. They can't even push the orb if they decide to latch onto it.

 

True, and at the same time our very flat damage performance with illusions out will be the main detriment in this fight compared to more bursty classes. The fact that the current top dps are super bursty too doesn't help.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Tbh, I'd only bring non Chrono Mes to VG, Sab, KC, Matt, Xera, and all of Wing 4 bar Deimos.

> For Mirage, I wouldn't bring it anywhere, but if I had to bring it anywhere, it'd be Sam and Gors for illusion retarget (since the bosses stay in the arena and are invulnerable).

 

You can bring mesmer to any fight as dps. I've run power mesmer 1nce through all 4 wings pre PoF. It was fun, it was easy, I was behind our usual dps (tempest, DH and condi berserker) on most fights except for matthias, cairn and samarog where I was either 1st or 2nd. The bar is very low for dps requirements in raids. That is not the question though, the question is: how strong is Mirage compared to other dps classes available because that's what people will eventually want to take along.

 

As a comparison: Soulbeast brings 35k+ golem dps and has a ton of more utility compared to Mirage. There is enough dps choices available now that bring 35k+ dps AND tons of utility. Even with signinficant nerfs to say Firebrand and Weaver to bring them in line, the new meta will be in the 35k+ dps area WITH utility.

[Aluren.1896]

> @Knox.8962 said:

>

> In a raid scenario, you'll be sitting on 72.5% crit chance in full viper gear with group buffs (banners + spotter + fury).

>

 

You are right, I didn't go into the test area to add those buffs making vigor upkeep much more likely.

 

 

> A raid buffed condi mirage would have 3084 condi damage. At a 72.5% crit chance, you'll self supply about 48.6% vigor from Critical Infusion. That makes the trait worth 75 Condi damage basically at a minimum. Any additional vigor uptime you get increases that number.

>

> Bleed tick at 50% uptime Vigor (3159 Condi Damage) - 211.54

> Bleed tick at 100% uptime Vigor (3234 Condi Damage) - 216.04

> The difference between 50% uptime and 100% uptime comes out to be 2.13% of your condition damage (which is in the ballpark of 80% of your damage)

>

> So the difference between the 100% uptime and 50% uptime you're virtually guaranteed to have is essentially a 1.67% DPS delta. That works out to be 570 DPS out of our 34.2k number. In a typical raid, you'll get some vigor from chronos sharing boons and druids depending on the builds, so the real delta is probably smaller than that %.

>

>

 

So this damage assumes that the boss you are facing is in melee range. Did you have any testing from scepter?

 

 

[narcx.3570]

Had a condi mirage of questionable skill do 19k vs Matthias today.

[DeathReign.7821]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @DeathReign.7821 said:

> > > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> > > Clones do 10% of your damage so this amazing trait you talk about is just glorified "get +10% per clone on your ambushes"..... Yay...

> >

> > Direct damage done by clones is indeed a small fraction of what your character does, but the conditions applied from clones are 1:1 to what your character would output. Thus, clones using ambushes is actually a significant increase in dps.

> >

> > The only exception to this is the scepter ambush, as it specifically states that the conditions applied by clones using the ambush lasts much shorter than the conditions applied by your character's ambush.

>

> Actually, this exception exists with Scepter and Axe. The only weapon that scales 1:1 with clones is Staff but that's a terrible weapon to be using for condi output.

> Scepter clones only auto attack twice, pulling in the weak autos.

> Axe clones don't benefit from Mirrored Axes on Ambush, making IH only give them 66% of your condi output.

>

> Additionally, Duelist with Sharper Images + Discipline will output more Condi (and damage) than you can. So even if you do start with clones, it's best to end on 3 Duelists + Axe Auto.

>

> Fun Fact: 1 Rogue will outdamage 1 Duelist while wearing full Viper's. YMMV due to backstab.

 

I was actually talking about the damage/duration of the condition itself, not the damage potential of each clone (e.g. Axe clones not having 1 extra axe from Mirrored Axes).

[Zenith.7301]

Honestly, this BS of ambush resetting your axe autoattack chain needs to go.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> Honestly, this BS of ambush resetting your axe autoattack chain needs to go.

 

I mean, that's how almost everything works in the game. Scepter is just weird as it holds the auto chain for a good while (and Scepter3 is capable of being cast even if the auto chain resets).

[Agent Noun.7350]

All Mirage does is increase my conviction that phantasms were a mistake.

 

Seriously, I love Mesmer. I love it _so much_. But the way phantasms work makes PvE DPS nearly impossible to balance correctly, and no matter what ArenaNet does to paper over it (Chronophantasma on Chronomancer, and a couple ways to retarget them on Mirage), it still doesn't quite work out.

 

At some point I'd love to see a from-the-ground-up phantasm rework that fundamentally changes what they are and what they do. Even something like Renegade's spirits would be a much better situation--just have them be utility skills with limited durations and specific effects. They wouldn't be illusions, so they wouldn't count towards your illusion limit or be shattered, which would also help make shatter builds actually viable in PvE.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I believe that mirage is a PvP/WvW class...a dueler if you will. Annoying to fight (Couldn't tell ya how many times I can poof away from attacks and produce confusion like fecal matter.) Its def something that needs a fine tune, but its def not a bad class.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> All Mirage does is increase my conviction that phantasms were a mistake.

>

> Seriously, I love Mesmer. I love it _so much_. But the way phantasms work makes PvE DPS nearly impossible to balance correctly, and no matter what ArenaNet does to paper over it (Chronophantasma on Chronomancer, and a couple ways to retarget them on Mirage), it still doesn't quite work out.

>

> At some point I'd love to see a from-the-ground-up phantasm rework that fundamentally changes what they are and what they do. Even something like Renegade's spirits would be a much better situation--just have them be utility skills with limited durations and specific effects. They wouldn't be illusions, so they wouldn't count towards your illusion limit or be shattered, which would also help make shatter builds actually viable in PvE.

 

I don't understand why they didn't do this with Mirage. I could understand if they don't want to change them for core Mesmer, even though they probably should, but mirage is a spec they say is based around clones and its an elite spec so people expect mechanic changes. Instead all we got was this stupid dodge change.

[Levetty.1279]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> I believe that mirage is a PvP/WvW class...a dueler if you will. Annoying to fight (Couldn't tell ya how many times I can poof away from attacks and produce confusion like fecal matter.) Its def something that needs a fine tune, but its def not a bad class.

 

Why give us an elite spec that fills the role core Mesmer does?