Spec we still lack

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

While i don't play necromancer that often, but it seems we have few choice about how to play:

1) Mid range Condition dps (scourge)

2) Melee Power dps (reaper)

3) Mid range Support/healer (scourge)

4) Melee Power Bruiser (reaper)

 

But we don't have these play styles:

1) Tank

2) Long range Power dps

 

Would you like the next elite to be 1 of those 2?

[Lahmia.2193]

3) a proper duelling spec with sword mh.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Tank Hammer spec <3

Mace/sword +shield dueling spec <3

[ZDragon.3046]

I could agree necro needs something to scrap with thats not reaper.

A proper dueling spec would be nice

Something with active defenses, proper gap closes, and a disengage or two.

I want to say sword but i have my doubts that it wouldnt be clunky/slower than every other sword in the game.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> Tank Hammer spec <3

> Mace/sword +shield dueling spec <3

 

Yeah, hammer would be nice, but for some reason very little amount of people are interested in hammers.

[Dadnir.5038]

1) tank: taking a beating like a boss can already be done with core necro so I guess, by tank you must mean that the spec would add meaningfull tools on top of sturdiness.

2) long range DD: If the traits and mechanisms that would support the weapon that would do that allow the necromancer to reach the level of dps of other professions, I guess I'd be ok with that.

 

All in all, I don't care of the "role" of the next e-spec, I just want this e-spec to allow the necromancer to step out of it's niche and shine on the same stage than other professions. Look DE, after much work and thought, is now a "long range e-spec" that shine just right at close range. I want the same for the necromancer, nothing overly complicated, just a pure and straigthforward simplicity that don't try to resolve a WvW zerg issue on it's own. I want an e-spec that is not another aoe boon corrupting spec.

[Klipso.8653]

I have a Condi reaper and barrier Scourge

 

I'd like to see a minion focus elite in the next expack with a hammer

[EdDreath.2508]

Id like a more single-target focused with an option of high-risk high reward playstyle. Yeah something that lean towards a duelist type as stated by ZDragon (active defenses, proper gap closes, and a disengage).

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

> @"Klipso.8653" said:

> I have a Condi reaper and barrier Scourge

>

> I'd like to see a minion focus elite in the next expack with a hammer

 

> @"EdDreath.2508" said:

> Id like a more single-target focused with an option of high-risk high reward playstyle. Yeah something that lean towards a duelist type as stated by ZDragon (active defenses, proper gap closes, and a disengage).

 

Both of these sounds like good ideas, especially putting them together, but what kind of class fantasy would such class represent?

[Dragoth.7153]

> @"Regon Phoenix.8215" said:

> While i don't play necromancer that often, but it seems we have few choice about how to play:

> 1) Mid range Condition dps (scourge)

> 2) Melee Power dps (reaper)

> 3) Mid range Support/healer (scourge)

> 4) Melee Power Bruiser (reaper)

>

> But we don't have these play styles:

> 1) Tank

> 2) Long range Power dps

>

> Would you like the next elite to be 1 of those 2?

 

We lack:

* Condi DPS both ranged and meele

* Power DPS both ranged and meele

* Any at least viable support spec

* Tanking class capable of be used instead of chrono

* Healing class capable of being as useful as druid

 

I have no idea why you consider scourge a dps or support/healer class nor reaper as a dps too. We still have no idea how we are supposed to play those specs since no dev explained it to us. They said that scourge is HEAVY SUPPORT but still not a single player discovered its hidden features. Maybe there is a Konami Code to be put during rotation or some mysterious Mystic Forge recipe where you combine 4 necros to become one viable class.

 

We also lack:

* Minion controlling spec for a sake of being necro

* Condi management because everythign was nerfed to the ground that dps classes have better condi strip and cleanse than necro

 

I really want to see smooth runs in any endgame PvE content without any single druid, chrono and bs warrior in team.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

Scourge- defensive support

Reaper- "bruiser"

Dueleeeer!

Offence support hybrid

 

Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

[Mara.6782]

Reaper could Tank until they nerfed Rise.

What Necromancer need is power long ranged spec and burst power melee that have mobility.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> Scourge- defensive support

> Reaper- "bruiser"

> Dueleeeer!

> Offence support hybrid

>

> Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

 

Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> > Scourge- defensive support

> > Reaper- "bruiser"

> > Dueleeeer!

> > Offence support hybrid

> >

> > Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

>

> Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

 

sure but main support stuff barrier looks more like it help you survive not destroy but sure its about how you play it or how traits/weapons let you play it

[Anchoku.8142]

Missing/desired:

* Melee condi bleed-burst to compliment scepter ranged stacking

* Long ranged, single target power/mobility to go with axe and dagger builds.

* Main hand group support/utility (e.g., reflect, taunt, protect)

* Main hand combo finisher (esp. blast)

* Main or off hand fire and smoke field

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> > > Scourge- defensive support

> > > Reaper- "bruiser"

> > > Dueleeeer!

> > > Offence support hybrid

> > >

> > > Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

> >

> > Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

>

> sure but main support stuff barrier looks more like it help you survive not destroy but sure its about how you play it or how traits/weapons let you play it

 

Scourge's barrier is weak its a minor help tool and every other part of scourge is damage this is why i consider it an offensive support. Offensive supports do not have very much support power in most games and thats scourge exact.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> > > > Scourge- defensive support

> > > > Reaper- "bruiser"

> > > > Dueleeeer!

> > > > Offence support hybrid

> > > >

> > > > Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

> > >

> > > Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

> >

> > sure but main support stuff barrier looks more like it help you survive not destroy but sure its about how you play it or how traits/weapons let you play it

>

> Scourge's barrier is weak its a minor help tool and every other part of scourge is damage this is why i consider it an offensive support. Offensive supports do not have very much support power in most games and thats scourge exact.

 

For me is offensive support chrono, help you with dmg, mobility etc.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Mara.6782" said:

> Reaper could Tank until they nerfed Rise.

> What Necromancer need is power long ranged spec and burst power melee that have mobility.

 

Reaper is burst power melee.

What necro needs is a real good dueling spec i think

[EdDreath.2508]

> @"Regon Phoenix.8215" said:

> > @"Klipso.8653" said:

> > I have a Condi reaper and barrier Scourge

> >

> > I'd like to see a minion focus elite in the next expack with a hammer

>

> > @"EdDreath.2508" said:

> > Id like a more single-target focused with an option of high-risk high reward playstyle. Yeah something that lean towards a duelist type as stated by ZDragon (active defenses, proper gap closes, and a disengage).

>

> Both of these sounds like good ideas, especially putting them together, but what kind of class fantasy would such class represent?

 

I can only think of something close to spectre in Dota 2. But of course it should thematically suitable with necro and not similar with thief or mesmer playstyle to avoid redundancy.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Reaper was a powerhouse bruiser and duelist, back in season 4 i'd be reaping misery in 4v1 at mid (Reaper being the one). But of course we can't have a good necro spec, so it got nerfed to the ground (only now coming back on the heels of them trying to appease necros after breaking scourge in PvE).

Scourge was a beast in PvP and a mid-tier DPS in PvE that was a viable choice because of the clutch support brought about by barrier. Then "the pvp community" lashed out because they couldn't play the same tired boon splurging mellee builds and, of course they had to nerf it, because only like 1/10 players (weirdly the approximate amount of people in GW2 Efficiency with Rank 80+ in PvP) had the brains to exploit the glaring weaknesses in Scourge.

Of course the balance team being the balance team, they completely destroyed the viability of the class in PvE. PoF introduced two classes that were built for PvP. Both were dominating in the early days in PvP, both had to be brought to heel. Luckly only one was completely destroyed in PvE (the other plays pretty much like core power builds, and can ignore the PvP mechanic).

 

And this is the problem with Arena Net. They were bold and creative. Made 2 classes that would obviously be dominating in PvP. Then got scared of what they had created and broke them. It's Frankenstein's Monster revisited.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Mara.6782" said:

> > Reaper could Tank until they nerfed Rise.

> > What Necromancer need is power long ranged spec and burst power melee that have mobility.

>

> Reaper is burst power melee.

> What necro needs is a real good dueling spec i think

 

Let's be honest, they can definitely sort out a duellist spec based on the same tools that the necromancer already use (leeching effect/boon corruption). They can even justify these tools as very effective for duel. However, in the end, it won't change anything for the necromancer which will still have the same niche in PvP and WvW and still be a pariah in PvE.

 

The necromancer need to have different tools to use, they don't need a spec that fill a fantaisist role. They need some freedom that their limited tools can't help them to gain even if you stack hundred of those tools on top of each other. The necromancer need different tools that fullfill different purpose. Because at this point we should all be aware that the typical anet answer for the necromancer is: life siphon/boon corruption/soft condition. Nothing more nothing less.

 

If we say that we need specific role we would end up with:

- Tank: weakness focused e-spec/life siphon/damage taken reduce when foe under the effect of [insert condition]

- Duelist: boon corrupt/life siphon/unblockable attack

- Support: boon corruption (scourge), life siphon (blood magic)

- ...etc.

 

We've got the same things for already 6 year and we all know that these things don't do a satisfying job. Wanting a role will just end up as an excuse to give the necromancer the same tools cooked differently. Which won't change in any way the necromancer niche dependency. Well, I guess it will be OK, WvWer will be able to play the necromancer differently. It might even end up being awesome in WvW and maybe viable in PvP. However, you can be sure of one thing, with the same tools, the necromancer's place in PvE won't even bulge. Which will make it bearable in open world and unpopular in end game content.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Both scourge and reaper can be absolutely valid tanks. Problem is this is gw2 meta has schizophrenia calling **support** (chronomancer) a "tank". Chrono aint tank cause of his huge damage reductions (more like evasions) powerful self-healing or ability to force enemy focus onto himself. He gets the role cause of quickness and alacrity spam + distortion for party. He is no tank, he's extremely heavy support, that was chosen to be a tank, because he can also surivive being focused.

 

Oh. Also because chronos did shit damage since HoT and had no other role to take. Later on when mesmer got real damage...well everyone settled into chronobunker meta and nobody cared to make a change in the tank spot:/

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > > Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> > > > > Scourge- defensive support

> > > > > Reaper- "bruiser"

> > > > > Dueleeeer!

> > > > > Offence support hybrid

> > > > >

> > > > > Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

> > > >

> > > > Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

> > >

> > > sure but main support stuff barrier looks more like it help you survive not destroy but sure its about how you play it or how traits/weapons let you play it

> >

> > Scourge's barrier is weak its a minor help tool and every other part of scourge is damage this is why i consider it an offensive support. Offensive supports do not have very much support power in most games and thats scourge exact.

>

> For me is offensive support chrono, help you with dmg, mobility etc.

 

Dont forget that offensive support can also boil down to, corrupting foe's boons / applying debuffs / zone control all of which scourge does as well while giving out barrier.

Trust me scourge is offensive support.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > > > Core necro looks like a tank. Because that funny dmg output.

> > > > > > Scourge- defensive support

> > > > > > Reaper- "bruiser"

> > > > > > Dueleeeer!

> > > > > > Offence support hybrid

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or another E-Spec will be some traitline from other classes so we will be good :D

> > > > >

> > > > > Scourge is an offensive support hybrid why do you think it deals so much damage even with the nerfs its damage is still up there to be considered a support.

> > > >

> > > > sure but main support stuff barrier looks more like it help you survive not destroy but sure its about how you play it or how traits/weapons let you play it

> > >

> > > Scourge's barrier is weak its a minor help tool and every other part of scourge is damage this is why i consider it an offensive support. Offensive supports do not have very much support power in most games and thats scourge exact.

> >

> > For me is offensive support chrono, help you with dmg, mobility etc.

>

> Dont forget that offensive support can also boil down to, corrupting foe's boons / applying debuffs / zone control all of which scourge does as well while giving out barrier.

> Trust me scourge is offensive support.

 

Correct, Scourge was designed for both offensive and defensive group support. The difference between being OP in competitive modes and lackluster in PvE is in how raids and boss AI work versus how real players and the game's professions work.

 

Defiance, lack of boss skills, and an AI unable to counter player actions devalues Necromancer's capabilities along with many builds in other professions.

 

A player-like AI that prioritizes threats and actively counters them is my fondest wish from Arenanet. Bosses should...

* generate their own boons and conditions, clear their conditions with skills having cool downs and do the same for player boons with strips or corruptions

* prioritize threats and attack the highest dps, the biggest group healer, then go after the most effective buffer and debuffer.

* dodge, block, reflect, or interrupt big-tell skills and red circles forcing players to watch timing for these counters to cool down

 

If an AI can do these things, the boss would need less health and toughness, players would need better tactics and coordination, and core Necro would be balanced with WvW and PvP.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

 

> A player-like AI that prioritizes threats and actively counters them is my fondest wish from Arenanet. Bosses should...

> * generate their own boons and conditions, clear their conditions with skills having cool downs and do the same for player boons with strips or corruptions

Some bosses do generate their own boons but they dont generate enough of them. Ideally what it comes down to is that you have professions like mesmer, spell breaker, even rev. That can rip boons while doing better things than the necromancer.

 

A solution would be to give bosses unique boons like stackable resistance, protection, regeneration in a number that these other professions cannot easily clear on their own. This open up room for necromacners which have much more converts/strips than the other professions combined to have more effective power in fights against bosses that use this mechanic. Even power necros often have 2-4 or more boon strips or converts at any given time.

 

I do agree that a lot of boss AI is too dependent on the Break Bar system to win and while its a good system it should not be the only system to help make some professions more relevant.

 

> * prioritize threats and attack the highest dps, the biggest group healer, then go after the most effective buffer and debuffer.

 

I dont completely agree with this because it removes the need for tanks while I do feel at some key points in a fight a boss can switch to attack the highest dps for a set time relentlessly it should not be a main feature at all times.

 

> * dodge, block, reflect, or interrupt big-tell skills and red circles forcing players to watch timing for these counters to cool down

 

I dont really understand this one.

 

>

> If an AI can do these things, the boss would need less health and toughness, players would need better tactics and coordination, and core Necro would be balanced with WvW and PvP.

 

Core necro will never be in blance with WvW and PvP because its too outdated. They need to do a major overhaul to most of the skills and a few of the traitlines before core necro is on a real competitive level with say core ranger, warrior, mesmer, guardian. Core necro is very lackluster not just in Pve but also in PvP and WvW. Thats not to say you cant use it but its not where near as effective as the other core professions i listed.

 

The would rather spend 3 months looking at how to remove damage from scourge and defusing epidemic than fix problematic issues that people have complained about for years.

- Death magic

- Minions

- Wells (just got updated after a few years and some of them are still behind ie. well of corruption/well of darkness)

- Corruption skills being overly risky with below average reward

- Blood magic being too weak

 

- Core shroud lacking in power and updates (it needs a clear defined role is it long range, mid range, or close range, should it be hybrid?, should it be raw condi?)

They even when as far as to take a look at under water combat twice and did not touch the core shroud under water despite it having some different skills underwater which trump the land shroud skill by a mile.

 

- Reaper having a better rotation than to just grave digger under 50%

- Giving necro more active defensive tools for being so slow and immobile or making the reward actually be worth being so slow. Right now every other profession runs and blinks circles around the necro and gets on average better reward than the necro gets for making a good play while having no mobility/ and slow windup.