The State of Dragonhunter in sPvP...

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Indure.5410" said:

> In terms of reducing Monk's Focus and building it in elsewhere that's a hard question to answer.

>

> If Guardian's base health is 11k and our average heal (assuming 1 use per fight) is 5k, then we have roughly 16k health over a fight. With MF and JI, Smite, Renewed Focus we gain 6k healing if each are used once. If used perfectly that's extending our effective health ~37%. This is roughly equivalent to Guardians having a permanent protection boon. I understand that in a fight you will have dodges/aegis/blinds/protection/regen/etc so 37% isn't accurate, but it still is making up at least 25% of our effective health.

>

> I don't know how to divide that much gain, but I believe that all the weapons and utilities that feel under-powered now wouldn't if they made the changes.

>

> I did make the suggestion in another thread that alternatively Valor could just become more the key line to all PVP builds. Create a 25% movement speed trait in its master traits and change MF to apply to all utilities used(except for spirit weapons and mantras due to cooldown problems), not just meditations. If Anet is going to trap us in a line at least let it solve all the problems.

 

So you're proposing taking away the healing component of MF? Many people use it for the fury/CD reduction since power creep has greatly lessened the value of the heal. To address your point though, I think what you're proposing has potential. Changes would have to be made to a lot of weapons though, and it's likely to result in an overall nerf unless large changes are made to the weapons guards mainly use in pvp (sword, shield, focus, GS, hammer, maybe scepter). They'd have to see some significant changes such as boon application, flat healing or straight up functionality change, such as adding in evades/blocks, multiple blinds, or inflicting weakness.

 

On top of whether or not all of that would be a good idea, I think it's a lower priority if we're aiming to increase guard's pvp viability in an offensive role. Not against your suggestions, I just think they're unlikely to do something like this.

[Indure.5410]

I agree and I think the bump in health you suggested would be a easier and better implementation.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

Just as an aside on the Monk's Focus healing , without any healing power in PvP it will heal the Guardian and only the guardian for 1960 baring any other traits, runes , or sigils impacting on it where as the Warrior in the same example with Vigorous Shouts will heal for only 1000 but it will be applied to his allies (I assume a limit of 5) and along with this only one of the warriors Shouts (Fear Me) isn't Ammo based now with 2 charges available on them before requiring a recast (note most of them have a 5 second delay between triggering) . Just to pointing this out for some perspective on possible ideas for changes.

[nativity.3057]

I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

 

I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

 

[mes.4607]

> @"nativity.3057" said:

> I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

>

> I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

>

 

Shelter CD should be 15 or 20 seconds... Probably 15

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"nativity.3057" said:

> > I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

> >

> > I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

> >

>

> Shelter CD should be 15 or 20 seconds... Probably 15

 

Kinda agree with this. People for some reason love to bloviate on how "overpowered" shelter is as a heal when it's really not. It's an option comparable to the medi heal at best (there are tradeoffs). A cd of 15s is probably a bit too low. 25s Would be a great starting point for buffing the heal since it's a modest buff unlikely to push it into the territory of overpowered.

[mes.4607]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > @"nativity.3057" said:

> > > I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

> > >

> > > I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

> > >

> >

> > Shelter CD should be 15 or 20 seconds... Probably 15

>

> Kinda agree with this. People for some reason love to bloviate on how "overpowered" shelter is as a heal when it's really not. It's an option comparable to the medi heal at best (there are tradeoffs). A cd of 15s is probably a bit too low. 25s Would be a great starting point for buffing the heal since it's a modest buff unlikely to push it into the territory of overpowered.

 

25 too long still. You literally can't do anything else while channeling the heal. You also can't cancel the channel and get healed. I think 15 seconds is the sweet spot. Low CD heal skill with a decent block up time. Soul beasts would still counter it really hard,. It also doesn't synergize with any traits outside of the "on block" ones

[nativity.3057]

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > @"nativity.3057" said:

> > > > I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

> > > >

> > > > I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Shelter CD should be 15 or 20 seconds... Probably 15

> >

> > Kinda agree with this. People for some reason love to bloviate on how "overpowered" shelter is as a heal when it's really not. It's an option comparable to the medi heal at best (there are tradeoffs). A cd of 15s is probably a bit too low. 25s Would be a great starting point for buffing the heal since it's a modest buff unlikely to push it into the territory of overpowered.

>

> 25 too long still. You literally can't do anything else while channeling the heal. You also can't cancel the channel and get healed. I think 15 seconds is the sweet spot. Low CD heal skill with a decent block up time. Soul beasts would still counter it really hard,. It also doesn't synergize with any traits outside of the "on block" ones

 

Shelter is meta for block burn and tankier solo guards (but these builds aren't meta themselves)

 

15 secs is probably too low. You can stow Shelter too, which keeps the block but doesn't heal you. 2-3 sec blocks on a 15 sec CD is a bit overpowered, not even including the healing done.

[otto.5684]

> @"nativity.3057" said:

> > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > @"nativity.3057" said:

> > > > > I think Shelter should be updated since it was nerfed before the game added more unblockable attacks. Would give guardians a second option to block bursts.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would like Sword 3 to be tweaked a bit. Sword is meta because the other options are sub-par.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shelter CD should be 15 or 20 seconds... Probably 15

> > >

> > > Kinda agree with this. People for some reason love to bloviate on how "overpowered" shelter is as a heal when it's really not. It's an option comparable to the medi heal at best (there are tradeoffs). A cd of 15s is probably a bit too low. 25s Would be a great starting point for buffing the heal since it's a modest buff unlikely to push it into the territory of overpowered.

> >

> > 25 too long still. You literally can't do anything else while channeling the heal. You also can't cancel the channel and get healed. I think 15 seconds is the sweet spot. Low CD heal skill with a decent block up time. Soul beasts would still counter it really hard,. It also doesn't synergize with any traits outside of the "on block" ones

>

> Shelter is meta for block burn and tankier solo guards (but these builds aren't meta themselves)

>

> 15 secs is probably too low. You can stow Shelter too, which keeps the block but doesn't heal you. 2-3 sec blocks on a 15 sec CD is a bit overpowered, not even including the healing done.

 

Block burn guardian has been dead since the 1 sec ICD before HoT release, but this is neither here or there. As for shelter, changing the CD will not matter to DH and honestly I do not see it being used over litany of wrath without an insane buff.

 

As for DH, I think anet will make the TS recent buff game wide. But not much will change otherwise.

[Derm.4932]

How would you guys feel if Heavy Light, in addition to the stability, granted 25 stacks of might for only 2 seconds upon knockback/pull/launch? It's no where near enough for DH to become a high might uptime spec, but grants a significant damage buff for a small window of time to combo burst off CC and awards skillful play for landing LB3 and F1.

[Kicast.1459]

> @"Blue.1207" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > How bad is it? I recently rolled up a Guardian and started playing Dragonhunter in PvP and it seems to work ok for me. Not the best of the best but I'm also not the best of the best players. But I do win about half my matchups using the Elite, with it becoming one of the stronger professions I can seem to win with in PvP. Or am I just getting lucky in my matchups and playing against players who happen to be worse than me?

> > >

> > > You can still be effective and have fun with it but against the more experienced and skilled crowd, you'll feel a bit useless on DH. It just doesn't bring enough to the table and for the role it plays, there are many other builds on other classes that do a better job.

> >

> > What role is it good at? Or supposed to be good at?

>

> Once upon a time DH was the king of node holding (from a non bunker perspective) and burst damage. This is when longbow & traps were good and Mirage didn't exist yet. They were a very versitile class, although their skill ceiling had a certain cap to it and didn't see a lot of high tier play outside of Moobs.

 

DH has always been bad in pvp. Pro tested it 3 4 weeks and then switched to serious builds. DH never came back.

What is this legend about node king ?

[DijitalKiD.2154]

Honestly, anyone who plays DH in sPVP deserves to have a bad time.

A very mindless spec with silly damage for the amount of no skill needed.

Though the only counter is a well timed dodge and then they become a stain to the guardian class as a whole.

[nativity.3057]

> @"Kicast.1459" said:

> > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > How bad is it? I recently rolled up a Guardian and started playing Dragonhunter in PvP and it seems to work ok for me. Not the best of the best but I'm also not the best of the best players. But I do win about half my matchups using the Elite, with it becoming one of the stronger professions I can seem to win with in PvP. Or am I just getting lucky in my matchups and playing against players who happen to be worse than me?

> > > >

> > > > You can still be effective and have fun with it but against the more experienced and skilled crowd, you'll feel a bit useless on DH. It just doesn't bring enough to the table and for the role it plays, there are many other builds on other classes that do a better job.

> > >

> > > What role is it good at? Or supposed to be good at?

> >

> > Once upon a time DH was the king of node holding (from a non bunker perspective) and burst damage. This is when longbow & traps were good and Mirage didn't exist yet. They were a very versitile class, although their skill ceiling had a certain cap to it and didn't see a lot of high tier play outside of Moobs.

>

> DH has always been bad in pvp. Pro tested it 3 4 weeks and then switched to serious builds. DH never came back.

> What is this legend about node king ?

 

I remember a player used it in an ESL tourney before. It was a pocket pick though, and the meta back then made it hard for DH to be used competitively.

Instead it was an absolute pug stomper with dazes on traps. I believe the meta utility slots were procession of blades, test of faith, and JI. You either went RF for sustain and more virtues or dragon maw for the CC.

 

> @"DijitalKiD.2154" said:

> Honestly, anyone who plays DH in sPVP deserves to have a bad time.

> A very mindless spec with silly damage for the amount of no skill needed.

> Though the only counter is a well timed dodge and then they become a stain to the guardian class as a whole.

 

It's like you're describing Deadeye word for word.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I don't agree at all. I think dragonhunters are in a good place simply because your traps are literally the size of most of the points on the map. If that isn't advantageous enough in conquest, then nothing is.

[otto.5684]

> @"DijitalKiD.2154" said:

> Honestly, anyone who plays DH in sPVP deserves to have a bad time.

> A very mindless spec with silly damage for the amount of no skill needed.

> Though the only counter is a well timed dodge and then they become a stain to the guardian class as a whole.

 

If you go to sPvP and expect to mindlessly spam traps or think that the SoJ pull to traps is your winning strategy, you will have bad time.

 

But anyway you look at it, DH does not do enough damage. And the key to fixing it is for anet to stop thinking that traps and SoJ pull as functional mechanics, because they are not and conceptually they are a terrible designs that were either too imbalanced or too weak.

 

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"DijitalKiD.2154" said:

> Honestly, anyone who plays DH in sPVP deserves to have a bad time.

> A very mindless spec with silly damage for the amount of no skill needed.

> Though the only counter is a well timed dodge and then they become a stain to the guardian class as a whole.

 

This was correct back when trueshot was critting 8ks, SoJ was much faster, traps still dazed and ToF still had much higher damage. Since the subsequent DH nerfs and buffs to other classes, DH requires much more skill to have good matchups with other classes. For example, if your opponent consistently avoids the ToF combo and you miss them with LB3 every single time, you won't be able to kill them even if you land everything else (trueshot, smite conditions, sword 2, auto attacks).

 

It's gotten to the point where DH is so dependent upon that ToF combo for damage that it's not at all effective against a knowledgeable opponent and completely ineffective in a team fight full of competent players (even if you pull of the combo against ONE player, they can easily retreat to the group and heal).

 

I'm sure you had a bad time with DH back when it was a noobstomper, we all did, but the meta has changed enough that the elite spec deserves at least slight buffs if not a rework.

[Indure.5410]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> I don't agree at all. I think dragonhunters are in a good place simply because your traps are literally the size of most of the points on the map. If that isn't advantageous enough in conquest, then nothing is.

 

What benefit does that give DH? The only trap that benefits at that size is Procession of Blades and maybe Light's Judgment (which no one uses). Both Fragments of Faith and Test of Faith are weaker the larger the trap area.

[otto.5684]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> I don't agree at all. I think dragonhunters are in a good place simply because your traps are literally the size of most of the points on the map. If that isn't advantageous enough in conquest, then nothing is.

 

With the exception of precision blades, the traps deal abysmal damage. Covering the point with ToF does nothing. It deals maybe 4K damage over 3 seconds if every proc of damage critic. And precision blades is not idle, since using usually mean you are either dropping smite or contemplation of purity.

 

And honestly, the DH strategy may have made since in HoT era (even in the end it was weak). In The current meta this damage does not even qualitfy to being abysmal. Compared with other bruiser builds; Holo, reaper l, SB, weaver or core guardian, all of them can do way more damage in way less time, with much less counter play.

[Math.5123]

> @"nativity.3057" said:

> > @"Kicast.1459" said:

> > > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > How bad is it? I recently rolled up a Guardian and started playing Dragonhunter in PvP and it seems to work ok for me. Not the best of the best but I'm also not the best of the best players. But I do win about half my matchups using the Elite, with it becoming one of the stronger professions I can seem to win with in PvP. Or am I just getting lucky in my matchups and playing against players who happen to be worse than me?

> > > > >

> > > > > You can still be effective and have fun with it but against the more experienced and skilled crowd, you'll feel a bit useless on DH. It just doesn't bring enough to the table and for the role it plays, there are many other builds on other classes that do a better job.

> > > >

> > > > What role is it good at? Or supposed to be good at?

> > >

> > > Once upon a time DH was the king of node holding (from a non bunker perspective) and burst damage. This is when longbow & traps were good and Mirage didn't exist yet. They were a very versitile class, although their skill ceiling had a certain cap to it and didn't see a lot of high tier play outside of Moobs.

> >

> > DH has always been bad in pvp. Pro tested it 3 4 weeks and then switched to serious builds. DH never came back.

> > What is this legend about node king ?

>

> I remember a player used it in an ESL tourney before. It was a pocket pick though, and the meta back then made it hard for DH to be used competitively.

> Instead it was an absolute pug stomper with dazes on traps. I believe the meta utility slots were procession of blades, test of faith, and JI. You either went RF for sustain and more virtues or dragon maw for the CC.

>

> > @"DijitalKiD.2154" said:

> > Honestly, anyone who plays DH in sPVP deserves to have a bad time.

> > A very mindless spec with silly damage for the amount of no skill needed.

> > Though the only counter is a well timed dodge and then they become a stain to the guardian class as a whole.

>

> It's like you're describing Deadeye word for word.

 

This person is playing full glass sic' em soulbeast. Speaking of too much damage for the effort required, autos hitting harder than Trueshot.

[Dace.8173]

I still find Dragon Hunter with longbow to be insanely fun. I do alright with him in PvP (though lately, I've started to learn Firebrand). I've also seen an increase in Dragon Hunters making use of longbow in PvP and WvW. It may not be the strongest weapon but it seems to get the job done for people.

[Math.5123]

[https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited](https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited "https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited")

 

Dh is clearly in a great place right now. Traps are insane value.

[Ezrael.6859]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> [https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited](https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited "https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited")

>

> Dh is clearly in a great place right now. Traps are insane value.

 

You accidentally downed an enemy player who was on 10% hp while running between noses... and?

 

[Math.5123]

> @"Ezrael.6859" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > [https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited](https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited "https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited")

> >

> > Dh is clearly in a great place right now. Traps are insane value.

>

> You accidentally downed an enemy player who was on 10% hp while running between noses... and?

>

 

It was clearly a joke. The trap crit for 2.6k which is like an auto from most classes nowadays.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Ezrael.6859" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > [https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited](https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited "https://clips.twitch.tv/GleamingCoyLadiesJebaited")

> > >

> > > Dh is clearly in a great place right now. Traps are insane value.

> >

> > You accidentally downed an enemy player who was on 10% hp while running between noses... and?

> >

>

> It was clearly a joke. The trap crit for 2.6k which is like an auto from most classes nowadays.

 

To be fair, he had protection on... would have only crit for about 3.9k without it though. That's almost fair as far as damage goes, just a bit undertuned.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

One week after balance patch. Still, nothing has changed. None of the new builds introduced in the latest patch are remotely competitive with the meta. The stuff you have to sacrifice to use the newly improved traits basically means you end up in the same spot as before.

 

Echoing other suggestions here to make Heavy Light baseline.