Feanor.2358 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. The idea of having a universal best in slot classes is partially why I started this discussion. In reality the happy medium we're looking for is balancing classes and providing some degree of encounter variety. Chronos only tradeoff it has at the moment is that it cannot deal damage while being a support class and to a lesser degree, it's boon sharing suffers slightly in mobile fights which is not nearly enough of a weakness in the current raid design. You can either look to buff nerf boon classes or create encounters where your supports have to deal damage somehow to accent chronos weakness and firebrand/renegade strengths. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Except pretty much every group has chrono, druid & warrior. With all fairness, these are simply too good. Can you do with alternatives? Sure. Is there any point of doing it? Nope. > > Then the solution is to introduce alternatives. It's not making some usually underused classes be equally irreplaceable on specific encounters. There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. Also I dont believe that every class should be strong in every situation but the weaknesses of each class is not being exploited enough in encounter design right now. The most prominent one at the moment is taking deadeyes on bosses like sloth or xera, you really feel the lack of cleave. This is a good thing because deadeyes give you a meaningful choice. Do you want top tier boss dps, or do you want to relieve pressure on the team by cleaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. Ok didn't know that alacrity & quickness are 11 boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > Ok didn't know that alacrity & quickness are 11 boons. OK, chaos chronos do not exist, neither does bountiful power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > > > Ok didn't know that alacrity & quickness are 11 boons. > > OK, chaos chronos do not exist, neither does bountiful power. I wasn't talking about giving other classes the ability to pump out 11 boons, but to pump both quickness and alacrity. And this right now is more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. That's not "introducing alternatives", that's _limiting_ choices. Without your mechanic, any dps class would be okay for cannons. With it, the number of viable classes/builds drops considerably. How can you call that increasing options, i have no idea. Besides, seriously, if you need some convoluted gimmicks to make some classes useful for some encounters, that's nothing more than admitting that those classes are so bad currently that without said gimmick noone would pick them. And admitting that devs have either no idea or no will to fix them. That's really unhealthy. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. Sure they can. They also have no dps to speak of in such a setup, while some of the potential alternatives _would_ have that. Or (in case of rev, or possibly tempest if we went there) might compress support slot with a healer one (in a way that minstrel chrono can't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. > That's not "introducing alternatives", that's _limiting_ choices. Without your mechanic, any dps class would be okay for cannons. With it, the number of viable classes/builds drops considerably. How can you call that increasing options, i have no idea. > > Besides, seriously, if you need some convoluted gimmicks to make some classes useful for some encounters, that's nothing more than admitting that those classes are so bad currently that without said gimmick noone would pick them. And admitting that devs have either no idea or no will to fix them. That's really unhealthy. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. > Sure they can. They also have no dps to speak of in such a setup, while some of the potential alternatives _would_ have that. Or (in case of rev, or possibly tempest if we went there) might compress support slot with a healer one (in a way that minstrel chrono can't). > The goal is not to introduce alternatives as you put it. Its to accentuate class weaknesses and strengths to make players think about tradeoffs when they play a class. Like i said all classes should not be equal in all situations because at that point you have homogenous classes. While that does lead to the ability to drag and drop its also dull and game balance falls to opening up a spreadsheet and adjusting auto attack numbers by 15% to achieve class balance. Youre going to also need to define gimmick better because with the loose usage you have, every mechanic is a gimmick. Hard forcing you to meet a dps check is a gimmick? Hard forcing you to bring reflects is a gimmick? Hard forcing boon strip is a gimmick? What characteristics make a mechanic not a gimmick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. See, there's no need - technically - to have a single support provide alacrity + quickness either. A Firebrand/Renegade pair can cover it, then offer something extra, then offer non-zero dps and healing. But they still aren't used, at least not remotely as much as chrono/druid? Why? Because it is much more practical to have it all in a single support carry. It doesn't matter that the chrono's dps is barely existent. It does everything, while tanking. Keep in mind geared chronos exists in plenty. Proper raid support Firebrands and Renegades? Not so much. Why gear a suboptimal support that depends on another support when you can do it all? This would be an issue as long as chronos can do what they currently can, regardless if another build was able to cover alacrity and quickness or not. Offensive boons? Sure. But I play arcane ele, where are my boons? Power of the Virtuous, Empowered, Bountiful Hunter, Bountiful Power, Chaotic Persistence, Elder's Force. 6/9 classes have a trait that translates the number of boons applied into higher damage output. When you **can** cover them all, you **will** want to. It is strictly better, no downsides, except for the weak personal dps, which would be an issue with every proper support. For balance reasons, if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. > > That's not "introducing alternatives", that's _limiting_ choices. Without your mechanic, any dps class would be okay for cannons. With it, the number of viable classes/builds drops considerably. How can you call that increasing options, i have no idea. > > > > Besides, seriously, if you need some convoluted gimmicks to make some classes useful for some encounters, that's nothing more than admitting that those classes are so bad currently that without said gimmick noone would pick them. And admitting that devs have either no idea or no will to fix them. That's really unhealthy. > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. > > Sure they can. They also have no dps to speak of in such a setup, while some of the potential alternatives _would_ have that. Or (in case of rev, or possibly tempest if we went there) might compress support slot with a healer one (in a way that minstrel chrono can't). > > > > The goal is not to introduce alternatives as you put it. Its to accentuate class weaknesses and strengths to make players think about tradeoffs when they play a class. Like i said all classes should not be equal in all situations because at that point you have homogenous classes. While that does lead to the ability to drag and drop its also dull and game balance falls to opening up a spreadsheet and adjusting auto attack numbers by 15% to achieve class balance. > > Youre going to also need to define gimmick better because with the loose usage you have, every mechanic is a gimmick. Hard forcing you to meet a dps check is a gimmick? Hard forcing you to bring reflects is a gimmick? Hard forcing boon strip is a gimmick? What characteristics make a mechanic not a gimmick? Now that I see what's you're trying to achieve here we can go deeper. Say for example Raid XYZ, Encounter X is specifically designed to bring forth Reaper's chill. The following Encounter Y is designed for Guardian's retaliation. How will the action: Kicking the Reaper after Encounter X for a Guardian replacement for Encounter Y justified? The Reaper class did loses it's shine after the encounter. Players will be forced to play/have all classes geared and ready for replacement needs? Kinda a hassle, grind and can't main the class you like to play :frown:? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > Been rolling this around my head and wanted to hear what other raiders think. Let's say hypothetically, the balance team ceases work today and no further changes to classes and skills happen for the foreseeable future, how would you design new encounters to give every class something to shine in? Would encounters specifically designed to make a class shine even be desirable or would it just feel bad and raise barrier of entry? > > Here's some examples: > A boss has 3 adds that constantly orbit him. They are targetable but have infinite hp. When left alone they simply do nothing, but if attacked or condied, they bounce that damage back to the party twofold. Basically a boss that punishes cleave and requires focused single target dps. > > A boss attack that hits for 101% of max hp, requiring heavy barriers to stay alive. > > Boss attacks that scales damage with how many boons you have. > > Boss that can only be damaged if you personally have applied chill in the last 5 seconds. > > List goes on but hopefully you get the idea. This would be more GW1'ish in the aspect that some challenges would just require certain classes present to be able to complete. I actually like more difficult content like this but I know a lot of people wouldn't enjoy the adaptation in GW2. These kind of game designs would also be easier if there were more distinctions between aspects that we don't have in GW2. Examples: * Water magic should deal increased damage to fire creatures. * Holy magic should deal increased damage to undead. * In some cases, a particular creature must be hit by lighting based attacks before it even becomes vulnerable to attack. * We get class based masteries that provide abilities that really individualize the importance of particular classes -> A ranger class can use "track" or something to follow a perma stealthed creature through a labyrinth. Where as a Thief has "pick lock" mastery to open doors. * Ect.. ect.. these are all things that we are missing in GW2 because the original idea was for every class to be able to do everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > See, there's no need - technically - to have a single support provide alacrity + quickness either. A Firebrand/Renegade pair can cover it, then offer something extra, then offer non-zero dps and healing. But they still aren't used, at least not remotely as much as chrono/druid? Why? Because it is much more practical to have it all in a single support carry. It doesn't matter that the chrono's dps is barely existent. It does everything, while tanking. > > Keep in mind geared chronos exists in plenty. Proper raid support Firebrands and Renegades? Not so much. Why gear a suboptimal support that depends on another support when you can do it all? This would be an issue as long as chronos can do what they currently can, regardless if another build was able to cover alacrity and quickness or not. Offensive boons? Sure. But I play arcane ele, where are my boons? Power of the Virtuous, Empowered, Bountiful Hunter, Bountiful Power, Chaotic Persistence, Elder's Force. 6/9 classes have a trait that translates the number of boons applied into higher damage output. When you **can** cover them all, you **will** want to. It is strictly better, no downsides, except for the weak personal dps, which would be an issue with every proper support. For balance reasons, if nothing else. Actually it's not that simple. **Reason 1:** Greaing a chrono guarantees you a spot in raids even if you might have to tank making you THE most important person in the entire raid group and a serious bottleneck on multiple bosses. See all those Deimos, Xera, SH, Dhuum, etc. looking for tank LFGs? **Reason 2:** Chrono has been a thing for years. Thus many people have geared one by now, yet they are still in short supply. That's the down side, many people do not WANT the responsibility of being tank or in general the "you-do-everything" for the raid class. Chrono as is right now is the bitch for everyone having to place portals on events, keep boons up, know mechanics, take on extra roles on specific bosses, etc. **Reason 3:** As support Firebrand and Renegade you are dependent on 1 other person being taken along. That is extra hassle that a raid might not want to bear. Those 3 reasons have NOTHING to do with firebrand and renegade being inferior or superior to chrono and they would remain true even IF chrono were a worse pick for the boon support. Having another support provide alacrity and quickness would eliminate at least part of those bottlenecks. That said, chrono was a thing long before Chaos chrono and while Chaos is nice and all, even if Chaos were to be nerfed boon wise right now, chrono would remain the meta pick simply because it brings alacrity and quickness. Those 2 boons are to essential, thus arguments could be made one of both (alacrity) getting removed from the game would make balancing a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. > > > That's not "introducing alternatives", that's _limiting_ choices. Without your mechanic, any dps class would be okay for cannons. With it, the number of viable classes/builds drops considerably. How can you call that increasing options, i have no idea. > > > > > > Besides, seriously, if you need some convoluted gimmicks to make some classes useful for some encounters, that's nothing more than admitting that those classes are so bad currently that without said gimmick noone would pick them. And admitting that devs have either no idea or no will to fix them. That's really unhealthy. > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. > > > Sure they can. They also have no dps to speak of in such a setup, while some of the potential alternatives _would_ have that. Or (in case of rev, or possibly tempest if we went there) might compress support slot with a healer one (in a way that minstrel chrono can't). > > > > > > > The goal is not to introduce alternatives as you put it. Its to accentuate class weaknesses and strengths to make players think about tradeoffs when they play a class. Like i said all classes should not be equal in all situations because at that point you have homogenous classes. While that does lead to the ability to drag and drop its also dull and game balance falls to opening up a spreadsheet and adjusting auto attack numbers by 15% to achieve class balance. > > > > Youre going to also need to define gimmick better because with the loose usage you have, every mechanic is a gimmick. Hard forcing you to meet a dps check is a gimmick? Hard forcing you to bring reflects is a gimmick? Hard forcing boon strip is a gimmick? What characteristics make a mechanic not a gimmick? > Now that I see what's you're trying to achieve here we can go deeper. Say for example Raid XYZ, Encounter X is specifically designed to bring forth Reaper's chill. The following Encounter Y is designed for Guardian's retaliation. How will the action: Kicking the Reaper after Encounter X for a Guardian replacement for Encounter Y justified? The Reaper class did loses it's shine after the encounter. Players will be forced to play/have all classes geared and ready for replacement needs? Kinda a hassle, grind and can't main the class you like to play :frown:? That's a balance point that I'm afraid we're not informed enough to be able to determine so I'll speculate and highlight some assumption points. Yes what you've outlined out here is a downside and if taken to the extreme forces serious raiders to need to have a Plaguedoctor Shoutheal warrior for encounter Z. A few posts back I mentioned that designers can use this as a slider to find a good balancing point depending on how restrictive or lax they want this particular mechanic to be. Part of that design decision factors in the intended availability of the special snowflake build. In the chill example, the game designer can choose to make the requirement 2 seconds which would simply require a dps class to equip a sigil of ice. or 10 seconds which would exclude everyone except reaper. This creates a choice for team comps where someone could accomplish the mechanic with their class of choice but will have to take significant drawbacks to compensate or swap to a class better equiped to handle it. The same could in theory be done with retaliation example where 5 seconds of retal would include soulbeast, engi, mesmer and guardian whereas 20+ seconds would only include guardian. It's all about finding the right balance on this slider. In my opinion trait, utility skills and weapon swaps are in the realm of reasonable for your average raider. Demand anymore out of someone (ie. where the **only** option is to role a new class, make new armor, get a new set of jewelry specifically for one boss and never touch it again) and you'll likely frustrate players too much to make it worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > There are alternatives in my sabetha chill example. The others need more thought put into them so focus on this example for now. > > > > That's not "introducing alternatives", that's _limiting_ choices. Without your mechanic, any dps class would be okay for cannons. With it, the number of viable classes/builds drops considerably. How can you call that increasing options, i have no idea. > > > > > > > > Besides, seriously, if you need some convoluted gimmicks to make some classes useful for some encounters, that's nothing more than admitting that those classes are so bad currently that without said gimmick noone would pick them. And admitting that devs have either no idea or no will to fix them. That's really unhealthy. > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > Oh, I agree on that. As a matter of fact, they have introduced alternatives, but the meta supports are just too good. Honestly, the first step would be to nerf the chronos. They do way too much, and way too well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry but just nerfing chrono, with how most boon application skills work right now, has the risk of making the team comp much more restrictive. We need real alternatives, specs that can give out both alacrity and quickness so that we might see something that can replace chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now other steps are way more important and I would say that chrono nerf would be one of the last steps. > > > > > > > > > > So basically you're saying "every support should be able to pump out 11 boons by themselves". I guess that's a way to do it, too. > > > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > It would be a step in right direction, but it would still be strictly (and vastly) inferior to the chrono and therefore not wanted/used. Chronos pump boons like there's no tomorrow, have OP CC and can even provide heals. > > > > Sure they can. They also have no dps to speak of in such a setup, while some of the potential alternatives _would_ have that. Or (in case of rev, or possibly tempest if we went there) might compress support slot with a healer one (in a way that minstrel chrono can't). > > > > > > > > > > The goal is not to introduce alternatives as you put it. Its to accentuate class weaknesses and strengths to make players think about tradeoffs when they play a class. Like i said all classes should not be equal in all situations because at that point you have homogenous classes. While that does lead to the ability to drag and drop its also dull and game balance falls to opening up a spreadsheet and adjusting auto attack numbers by 15% to achieve class balance. > > > > > > Youre going to also need to define gimmick better because with the loose usage you have, every mechanic is a gimmick. Hard forcing you to meet a dps check is a gimmick? Hard forcing you to bring reflects is a gimmick? Hard forcing boon strip is a gimmick? What characteristics make a mechanic not a gimmick? > > Now that I see what's you're trying to achieve here we can go deeper. Say for example Raid XYZ, Encounter X is specifically designed to bring forth Reaper's chill. The following Encounter Y is designed for Guardian's retaliation. How will the action: Kicking the Reaper after Encounter X for a Guardian replacement for Encounter Y justified? The Reaper class did loses it's shine after the encounter. Players will be forced to play/have all classes geared and ready for replacement needs? Kinda a hassle, grind and can't main the class you like to play :frown:? > > That's a balance point that I'm afraid we're not informed enough to be able to determine so I'll speculate and highlight some assumption points. Yes what you've outlined out here is a downside and if taken to the extreme forces serious raiders to need to have a Plaguedoctor Shoutheal warrior for encounter Z. A few posts back I mentioned that designers can use this as a slider to find a good balancing point depending on how restrictive or lax they want this particular mechanic to be. Part of that design decision factors in the intended availability of the special snowflake build. > > In the chill example, the game designer can choose to make the requirement 2 seconds which would simply require a dps class to equip a sigil of ice. or 10 seconds which would exclude everyone except reaper. This creates a choice for team comps where someone could accomplish the mechanic with their class of choice but will have to take significant drawbacks to compensate or swap to a class better equiped to handle it. The same could in theory be done with retaliation example where 5 seconds of retal would include soulbeast, engi, mesmer and guardian whereas 20+ seconds would only include guardian. It's all about finding the right balance on this slider. > > In my opinion trait, utility skills and weapon swaps are in the realm of reasonable for your average raider. Demand anymore out of someone (ie. where the **only** option is to role a new class, make new armor, get a new set of jewelry specifically for one boss and never touch it again) and you'll likely frustrate players too much to make it worth it. Actually we have a couple of example like this in game already, and they all played out exactly the same way, the required classes/roles are being brought in for the fight, then replaced again. Case in point: - Mirage or condi dps on Matthias to maximize damage - Keep Construct requires an orb pusher which usually falls to one of the druids. Rest assured, if it would require a non meta class, that class would get taken for this one fight only (see Deimos). At the same time most damage players are expected to relog to power damage - Deimos requires handkiter (and optional black kiter). The handkiter is usually a especially for this fight geared revenant, ranger or elmentalist. The handkiter either replaces his gear after (in case of elementalist or ranger) or gets replaced entirely (in case of revenant). - Soulless Horror requires 2 tanks which automatically requires that the support chrono has to equip minstrel gear thus requiring him to carry at least 2 sets of gear. Now take a guess as to which fights are most tedious to build groups for and get skipped by most players? Here is a hint: Deimos is in the top spot with the most amount of dedicated roles to fill (besides Dhuum maybe). When building a PUG group for Deimos, expect to wait for a good 20- 30 minutes to find a handkiter if you are unlucky. Add another 20 minutes to find a tank if you yourself can't tank him. Making fights more restrictive will not increase overall class representation (except for that one fight maybe), it will make the entire process of raiding less smooth and more convoluted and complex. Not sure most people are okay with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > That's a balance point that I'm afraid we're not informed enough to be able to determine so I'll speculate and highlight some assumption points. Yes what you've outlined out here is a downside and if taken to the extreme forces serious raiders to need to have a Plaguedoctor Shoutheal warrior for encounter Z. A few posts back I mentioned that designers can use this as a slider to find a good balancing point depending on how restrictive or lax they want this particular mechanic to be. Part of that design decision factors in the intended availability of the special snowflake build. > > In the chill example, the game designer can choose to make the requirement 2 seconds which would simply require a dps class to equip a sigil of ice. or 10 seconds which would exclude everyone except reaper. This creates a choice for team comps where someone could accomplish the mechanic with their class of choice but will have to take significant drawbacks to compensate or swap to a class better equiped to handle it. The same could in theory be done with retaliation example where 5 seconds of retal would include soulbeast, engi, mesmer and guardian whereas 20+ seconds would only include guardian. It's all about finding the right balance on this slider. > > In my opinion trait, utility skills and weapon swaps are in the realm of reasonable for your average raider. Demand anymore out of someone (ie. where the **only** option is to role a new class, make new armor, get a new set of jewelry specifically for one boss and never touch it again) and you'll likely frustrate players too much to make it worth it. Examples given by Trevor Boyer.6524 and such will just be treated as another mechanics similar to the current situation for players to overcome (there's nothing to hate). It won't changes anything, merely setting META class for specific encounters. An encounter that requires chill will merely encourage a necro to be taken in just for that specific fight and to be swapped/replaced after. A more viable option would be bringing backup weapons equipped with Sigil of Hydromancy to be swapped in for the encounter which ultimately changes nothing. Such as how Sloth encourage reflects (there are many classes with reflects, chrono is META because they can provide more than just that) and Eles performance for KC (They still shine for that encounter, but I don't think they felt anything special outside of it). What I'm trying to say is, placing such mechanics will just be treated like any other but if it gets too restrictive, it will just create a META class for that specific encounter. Ultimately, it won't help to achieve any balancing through this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. That wont solve the problem though Chrono having access to many more blocks and evasion tools would still have it being primary when it comes to tanking. Ideally you'd want to remove one of those boons or at the very least significantly lower it's uptime or effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > That wont solve the problem though Chrono having access to many more blocks and evasion tools would still have it being primary when it comes to tanking. Possibly. It would at least open up the second support spot. > Ideally you'd want to remove one of those boons or at the very least significantly lower it's uptime or effectiveness. Remove from the game? Yeah, that would work. From chrono? You'd move from 2 to 4 support spots. Half of them locked to a specific class (either revenant or firebrand, depending on which boon you have removed from chrono). Not sure how it would be an improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > > > > That wont solve the problem though Chrono having access to many more blocks and evasion tools would still have it being primary when it comes to tanking. > Possibly. It would at least open up the second support spot. > > > Ideally you'd want to remove one of those boons or at the very least significantly lower it's uptime or effectiveness. > Remove from the game? Yeah, that would work. From chrono? You'd move from 2 to 4 support spots. Half of them locked to a specific class (either revenant or firebrand, depending on which boon you have removed from chrono). Not sure how it would be an improvement. > Like i said either remove or substantially reduce the boons effectiveness/uptime. If you start normalizing the damage pallet of all classes and remove things that exponentially effect it like Alacarity and Quickness do, then you might see more variance in either the support/tank role or you'll see more variance of DPS selection due to the damage discrepancy being much lower than the 20-30% we see each update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > 11? no, not necessarily. 100% alacrity _and_ quickness? Yes, there should be more than one class capable of it. That's the part that's important in chrono. All the other boons are less important (they either can be obtained by different means, or aren't that important themselves, beyond increasing the number of boons on players for some dps-boosting traits). Chronos weren't always able to pump out that many boons, after all, and yet they have been a fixture in raids for almost the whole time we have them. > > > > > > > > > That wont solve the problem though Chrono having access to many more blocks and evasion tools would still have it being primary when it comes to tanking. > > Possibly. It would at least open up the second support spot. > > > > > Ideally you'd want to remove one of those boons or at the very least significantly lower it's uptime or effectiveness. > > Remove from the game? Yeah, that would work. From chrono? You'd move from 2 to 4 support spots. Half of them locked to a specific class (either revenant or firebrand, depending on which boon you have removed from chrono). Not sure how it would be an improvement. > > > > Like i said either remove or substantially reduce the boons effectiveness/uptime. Yes, removing it would work. Of course, noone would want to take chrono then, which is going in the opposite direction. I actually like that there is a support option in the group composition. I'd just want to see more variance within that option. Just as i' like to see a bit more variance within a heal option. Reducing the effectiveness/uptime of boons _wouldn't_ work. Or rather, wouldn't work, unless you reduced them to the point they were not worth taking anymore, but by that point it's no different than just removing them completely. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > If you start normalizing the damage pallet of all classes and remove things that exponentially effect it like Alacarity and Quickness do, then you might see more variance in either the support/tank role or you'll see more variance of DPS selection due to the damage discrepancy being much lower than the 20-30% we see each update. I'm pretty sure those dps differences between classes _aren't_ buff-dependant. The overall damage without those buffs would be lower (which, btw, would require either completely rebalancing the classes to make up for that loss, or severe nerfs to all raid encounters), but the relative percentage differences between classes would remain. That's because the weaker classes would get hit by that buff nerf as strongly as the top dps options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I have to say no, just based on the bad experience of waiting around for that EXACT class to join your team so you can do content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Honestly they can just try it on a single encounter, gather feedback and then just change it. I'd be up for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsleep.7839 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > If you start normalizing the damage pallet of all classes and remove things that exponentially effect it like Alacarity and Quickness do, then you might see more variance in either the support/tank role or you'll see more variance of DPS selection due to the damage discrepancy being much lower than the 20-30% we see each update. > I'm pretty sure those dps differences between classes _aren't_ buff-dependant. The overall damage without those buffs would be lower (which, btw, would require either completely rebalancing the classes to make up for that loss, or severe nerfs to all raid encounters), but the relative percentage differences between classes would remain. That's because the weaker classes would get hit by that buff nerf as strongly as the top dps options. But they are. Classes where the damage comes mostly from auto attacks or a system like initiative don't rely on alacrity at all. Some classes have traits that increase your damage by a certain amount by having a number of boons on your or specific boons. Some classes include dodges in the rotation, which makes Vigor important. Some classes are more punished than others when dodging certain mechanics or losing uptime because of not having Aegis/Stability. And the list goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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