Because death is our theme

[Virelion.4128]

It is monster in pvp while being babysited. Always was. Lets just agree nexromancer is this one handicapoed class who is not allowed to go anywhere alone.

This design would be fine in moba. It is not fine in mmo

[Virelion.4128]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > I am pretty sure they know what they are doing with it. Getting it to where they want it to go is a different matter but I've seen no evidence that they don't know what to do with it. However, one faction is bound to be the bottom of the dog pile. No matter how hard a gaming company works there is always going to be a bottom. This problem has plagued gaming in general for decades.

> > Meta should shift and it is shifting in this game too. Being once on the top once on the bottom of pile is nothiNg unusual.

> >

> > "Focus necro" meta never changed.

> >

> > Worst class in raids never changed as well. Necro was used for one moment as gimmick with condi bounce. And even this tool got removed.

> >

> > Worst class in WvW roaming never changed

> >

> > Blob WvW meta is full of necros and even more full of guardians is here to stay. This is actual only place where necro was constantly viable and wanted.

> >

> > Guardian for example is relevant in all game modes. In spvp there are like 3 meta guardian builds. Always required in WvW, never forces out of raids.

> >

> > I do not have evidence for lack of understanding of game by devs. It is just my opinion in this particular matter.

>

> Ascribing a motive that does not exist doesn't really bolster your case. At any rate, Necromancer is good in PvP and WvW. That's two out of the three game modes and yet somehow that translates into the developers hating the profession. I will never get how being subpar in only one area of the game translates into the worst profession in the game and the developers must hate the profession (despite zero evidence or logic).

 

Developers hating this profession is straw man you created. Do not drag me into it.

If you want evidence I can list you universaly agreeable necromancer design flows.

- no mobility

- no active defence

- very lacking stability

- no lifeforce at the begining of the fight

 

Which will cause you to be ping ponged, bursted and killed in seconds while focused

[Asum.4960]

Sometimes it feels like people think Scourge/Reaper + Firebrand is one class.

 

Necro on it's own has never been good at anything but open world PvE, where it's still far from the best spec to pick, not that it matters much there.

 

In WvW the only reason Scourge dominated so much for a long time is because of the crazy synergy with FB's, and because it is required to counter the enemy Firebrands.

The core of WvW has always been Guardians, not Necros. They just were adapted as counter to the enemy Guards.

Aside from sustained AoE Boon removal, Necro brings nothing to the table. It's only saving grace is that Anet hasn't given that to any other spec yet.

The closest thing to that capability on another class we got is Spellbreaker Bubble, which is not sustained removal, but it turns out it's completely insane and basically decides the fights in WvW since it's introduction.

 

Meanwhile, enemy boons have stayed almost irrelevant in PvE, aside from things like No Pain, No gain in Fractals, and even there other solutions to not have to bring an otherwise weak Necro to the party were quickly found, with the Chrono taking care of them, and later a Spb BS.

 

PvE Necro mains have been feeling useless and unwanted in the game for almost 6 years now. I don't think there is a way to spin and defend that. Every time they shined it was because of unintended interactions that have quickly been fixed, followed by just more nerfs to an already weak class after those fixes. Over an over again.

Being just barely viable is not a good look for a class over the entire duration of the game's lifespan. Yes, you can run Necro in PuG's with low expectations or with your Guildies, but you are not doing them a favour by doing so. Knowing you could do more on literally any other class with the same or lower effort doesn't feel good.

 

In WvW it's a necessary evil to bring Necros to counter Guards boon spam. As soon as that's nerfed to a reasonable point or any other class gets that capability, Necro is gone for good without a doubt. And if people were to check their combat logs, they would see that what's killing them is not the 300 damage torment ticks of the Necro (running on a crap ton of people, looking good on a DPS meter), but Meteor Showers and Coalescence of Ruin.

 

In PvP Necro's may be nice at low ranks, but as you climb you soon start to see it's major limitations against skilled players, for which you become essentially a free kill. Something I have experienced from both sides, playing and fighting Necros on other professions and knowing how to counter them.

As soon as people stop just standing in Soul Spiral/Desert Shroud and wells/shades in general, you know you have reached a rank where you might as well switch classes.

Without the blocks, heals, reflects, stability, condi cleanse.. etc. of the Firebrand picking up all the slack of the Necromancer class, I wouldn't even try.

Even if Scourge hadn't been nerfed at all since it's overpowered launch state, people could have just adopted things like Rifle Deadeye as meta, completely shutting down Necros. Not that a Mirage doesn't turn everything into a free kill as well, and is arguably stronger than Scourge ever was.

[Dadnir.5038]

You're not entirely right in your statement:

 

> @"Virelion.4128" said:

>

> Developers hating this profession is straw man you created. Do not drag me into it.

> If you want evidence I can list you universaly agreeable necromancer design flows.

> - no mobility

 

Not true, the necromancer have a lot of mobility, the real issue is that this mobility is clunky and "expensive".

 

> - no active defence

 

This is also not true, To defend you have to go into shroud or produce a barrier, which mean that you actively seek a defensive mechanism. The real issue with necromancer's defense is that it all depend on a finite ressource to mitigate a set amount of damage, while other professions have defense mechanisms which mitigate an infinite amount of damage and don't need you to actively build a ressource.

 

The issue is mainly the finite versus infinite amount of damage mitigated.

 

> - very lacking stability

 

Again, this is a biased point of view. Potentially the necromancer (core and reaper) have 1 stack of stability + break stun every 10 seconds. An amount of stability that quite a lot of profession can be jealous of. The necromancer's issue is thus not a "stability" issue but the fact that other professions own skills and effect that can substitute to stability and block hard control effect while the necromancer don't.

 

> - no lifeforce at the begining of the fight

 

That's a trivial concern. Trait _spectral mastery_ instead of _vital persistence_, pop _spectral armor_, take a hit and enjoy your shroud for 8 second of "invulnerability".

 

>

> Which will cause you to be ping ponged, bursted and killed in seconds while focused

 

You sumed up thing in such a way that you showed what you wish to have more, you didn't listed the real issue of the necromancer which is what is important.

[Dadnir.5038]

You're not entirely right in your statement:

 

> @"Virelion.4128" said:

>

> Developers hating this profession is straw man you created. Do not drag me into it.

> If you want evidence I can list you universaly agreeable necromancer design flows.

> - no mobility

 

Not true, the necromancer have a lot of mobility, the real issue is that this mobility is clunky and "expensive".

 

> - no active defence

 

This is also not true, To defend you have to go into shroud or produce a barrier, which mean that you actively seek a defensive mechanism. The real issue with necromancer's defense is that it all depend on a finite ressource to mitigate a set amount of damage, while other professions have defense mechanisms which mitigate an infinite amount of damage and don't need you to actively build a ressource.

 

The issue is mainly the finite versus infinite amount of damage mitigated.

 

> - very lacking stability

 

Again, this is a biased point of view. Potentially the necromancer (core and reaper) have 1 stack of stability + break stun every 10 seconds. An amount of stability that quite a lot of profession can be jealous of. The necromancer's issue is thus not a "stability" issue but the fact that other professions own skills and effect that can substitute to stability and block hard control effect while the necromancer don't.

 

> - no lifeforce at the begining of the fight

 

That's a trivial concern. Trait _spectral mastery_ instead of _vital persistence_, pop _spectral armor_, take a hit and enjoy your shroud for 8 second of "invulnerability".

 

>

> Which will cause you to be ping ponged, bursted and killed in seconds while focused

 

You sumed up thing in such a way that you showed what you wish to have more, you didn't listed the real issue of the necromancer which is what is important.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Again, this is a biased point of view. Potentially the necromancer (core and reaper) have 1 stack of stability + break stun every 10 seconds. An amount of stability that quite a lot of profession can be jealous of. The necromancer's issue is thus not a "stability" issue but the fact that other professions own skills and effect that can substitute to stability and block hard control effect while the necromancer don't.

>

 

Potentially, yes. On a Grandmaster you generally can't afford to run.

Reaper potentially has 1 Stack of Stability every 10 seconds like a DPS Deadeye potentially gives 25 Stacks of Might and perma Fury to the entire raid squad.

It's possible, but ain't happening.

As everything with necro, it's too costly of an investment for way to little.

 

It's just not enough by a long shot considering what a special needs case of stability Necromancer is.

Unless Shroud becomes a true invulnerability, which seems OP, I can't think of an easier and more thematic fix than stability for Necro.

 

The class doesn't have plentiful dodgerolls and vigor, it doesn't have stealth, it doesn't have clones, it doesn't have blocks, it doesn't have invulns, it doesn't have sustained mobility, it doesn't have much boon support/covers in form of aegis, regen, swiftness etc..

 

I don't think there is any class that does compare in the slightest to the need of stability as the slow and much telegraphed Necromancer.

Even if Necro could take that Grandmaster, one stack would be laughable still, even when compared to other melee brawlers, who do have active blocks, active and passive invulns, mobility and cover boons.

 

If Shroud had an inbuild Balanced Stance we could be talking. Not this Grandmaster nobody runs (that I know of).

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Sometimes it feels like people think Scourge/Reaper + Firebrand is one class.

>

> Necro on it's own has never been good at anything but open world PvE, where it's still far from the best spec to pick, not that it matters much there.

>

> In WvW the only reason Scourge dominated so much for a long time is because of the crazy synergy with FB's, and because it is required to counter the enemy Firebrands.

> The core of WvW has always been Guardians, not Necros. They just were adapted as counter to the enemy Guards.

> Aside from sustained AoE Boon removal, Necro brings nothing to the table. It's only saving grace is that Anet hasn't given that to any other spec yet.

> The closest thing to that capability on another class we got is Spellbreaker Bubble, which is not sustained removal, but it turns out it's completely insane and basically decides the fights in WvW since it's introduction.

>

> Meanwhile, enemy boons have stayed almost irrelevant in PvE, aside from things like No Pain, No gain in Fractals, and even there other solutions to not have to bring an otherwise weak Necro to the party were quickly found, with the Chrono taking care of them, and later a Spb BS.

>

> PvE Necro mains have been feeling useless and unwanted in the game for almost 6 years now. I don't think there is a way to spin and defend that. Every time they shined it was because of unintended interactions that have quickly been fixed, followed by just more nerfs to an already weak class after those fixes. Over an over again.

> Being just barely viable is not a good look for a class over the entire duration of the game's lifespan. Yes, you can run Necro in PuG's with low expectations or with your Guildies, but you are not doing them a favour by doing so. Knowing you could do more on literally any other class with the same or lower effort doesn't feel good.

>

> In WvW it's a necessary evil to bring Necros to counter Guards boon spam. As soon as that's nerfed to a reasonable point or any other class gets that capability, Necro is gone for good without a doubt. And if people were to check their combat logs, they would see that what's killing them is not the 300 damage torment ticks of the Necro (running on a crap ton of people, looking good on a DPS meter), but Meteor Showers and Coalescence of Ruin.

>

> In PvP Necro's may be nice at low ranks, but as you climb you soon start to see it's major limitations against skilled players, for which you become essentially a free kill. Something I have experienced from both sides, playing and fighting Necros on other professions and knowing how to counter them.

> As soon as people stop just standing in Soul Spiral/Desert Shroud and wells/shades in general, you know you have reached a rank where you might as well switch classes.

> Without the blocks, heals, reflects, stability, condi cleanse.. etc. of the Firebrand picking up all the slack of the Necromancer class, I wouldn't even try.

> Even if Scourge hadn't been nerfed at all since it's overpowered launch state, people could have just adopted things like Rifle Deadeye as meta, completely shutting down Necros. Not that a Mirage doesn't turn everything into a free kill as well, and is arguably stronger than Scourge ever was.

 

There are finally people with a brain commenting? LOL

 

There's typically 3 sorts of people:

-necro is op (non necro players, that just are bad at the game tbh)

-necro is very good (necro players that never fought real good enemies)

-necro can be good but most of the time it sux (actually the only good people)

 

Sadly there's too many of the first and second people so anet isn't listening to the good ones, that wanna make necro work but can't because it lacks so many things.

[Virelion.4128]

One 3 sec stack of stability every 10 sec is still laughable for a grand master trait. This is why it was changed to stunbreak. It is insufficient for amount of slow telegraphed attacks necro have.

 

Also aside of wurm and sand swell or wurm and death charge in case of reaper, there is no mobility for necro. Non of necromancers weapon have anythink mobility oriented. While other classes are leaping and swirling not even fast but also with evade frames

[Virelion.4128]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Sometimes it feels like people think Scourge/Reaper + Firebrand is one class.

> >

> > Necro on it's own has never been good at anything but open world PvE, where it's still far from the best spec to pick, not that it matters much there.

> >

> > In WvW the only reason Scourge dominated so much for a long time is because of the crazy synergy with FB's, and because it is required to counter the enemy Firebrands.

> > The core of WvW has always been Guardians, not Necros. They just were adapted as counter to the enemy Guards.

> > Aside from sustained AoE Boon removal, Necro brings nothing to the table. It's only saving grace is that Anet hasn't given that to any other spec yet.

> > The closest thing to that capability on another class we got is Spellbreaker Bubble, which is not sustained removal, but it turns out it's completely insane and basically decides the fights in WvW since it's introduction.

> >

> > Meanwhile, enemy boons have stayed almost irrelevant in PvE, aside from things like No Pain, No gain in Fractals, and even there other solutions to not have to bring an otherwise weak Necro to the party were quickly found, with the Chrono taking care of them, and later a Spb BS.

> >

> > PvE Necro mains have been feeling useless and unwanted in the game for almost 6 years now. I don't think there is a way to spin and defend that. Every time they shined it was because of unintended interactions that have quickly been fixed, followed by just more nerfs to an already weak class after those fixes. Over an over again.

> > Being just barely viable is not a good look for a class over the entire duration of the game's lifespan. Yes, you can run Necro in PuG's with low expectations or with your Guildies, but you are not doing them a favour by doing so. Knowing you could do more on literally any other class with the same or lower effort doesn't feel good.

> >

> > In WvW it's a necessary evil to bring Necros to counter Guards boon spam. As soon as that's nerfed to a reasonable point or any other class gets that capability, Necro is gone for good without a doubt. And if people were to check their combat logs, they would see that what's killing them is not the 300 damage torment ticks of the Necro (running on a crap ton of people, looking good on a DPS meter), but Meteor Showers and Coalescence of Ruin.

> >

> > In PvP Necro's may be nice at low ranks, but as you climb you soon start to see it's major limitations against skilled players, for which you become essentially a free kill. Something I have experienced from both sides, playing and fighting Necros on other professions and knowing how to counter them.

> > As soon as people stop just standing in Soul Spiral/Desert Shroud and wells/shades in general, you know you have reached a rank where you might as well switch classes.

> > Without the blocks, heals, reflects, stability, condi cleanse.. etc. of the Firebrand picking up all the slack of the Necromancer class, I wouldn't even try.

> > Even if Scourge hadn't been nerfed at all since it's overpowered launch state, people could have just adopted things like Rifle Deadeye as meta, completely shutting down Necros. Not that a Mirage doesn't turn everything into a free kill as well, and is arguably stronger than Scourge ever was.

>

> There are finally people with a brain commenting? LOL

>

> There's typically 3 sorts of people:

> -necro is op (non necro players, that just are bad at the game tbh)

> -necro is very good (necro players that never fought real good enemies)

> -necro can be good but most of the time it sux (actually the only good people)

>

> Sadly there's too many of the first and second people so anet isn't listening to the good ones, that wanna make necro work but can't because it lacks so many things.

 

Issue you described partialy comes from specs we are geting which are purely thematic oriented. They are solving no necro issues, but often introducing broken mechanic for month or two just to get spec nerfed and left in the gutter.

Also core necro is weak and weapons like dagger and focus are desperatly in need of attention

[Axl.8924]

> @"Virelion.4128" said:

> One 3 sec stack of stability every 10 sec is still laughable for a grand master trait. This is why it was changed to stunbreak. It is insufficient for amount of slow telegraphed attacks necro have.

>

> Also aside of wurm and sand swell or wurm and death charge in case of reaper, there is no mobility for necro. Non of necromancers weapon have anythink mobility oriented. While other classes are leaping and swirling not even fast but also with evade frames

 

There is a abilty that increases speed, its just that its on a weapon(warhorn secondary)

 

scourge at least has 1 option for speed up thats in build in the abilities itself, so i guess you could still go scepter warhorn for double options for speed for escaping?

 

[Virelion.4128]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > One 3 sec stack of stability every 10 sec is still laughable for a grand master trait. This is why it was changed to stunbreak. It is insufficient for amount of slow telegraphed attacks necro have.

> >

> > Also aside of wurm and sand swell or wurm and death charge in case of reaper, there is no mobility for necro. Non of necromancers weapon have anythink mobility oriented. While other classes are leaping and swirling not even fast but also with evade frames

>

> There is a abilty that increases speed, its just that its on a weapon(warhorn secondary)

>

> scourge at least has 1 option for speed up thats in build in the abilities itself, so i guess you could still go scepter warhorn for double options for speed for escaping?

>

 

Swiftness is not mobility tool, it is just slight movement speed increase, you cannot disengage using swiftness. I have no idea what is "scourge" option of escaping besides sand swell which I already covered. Necro mobility is bad, just bad.

If you are making class slow, make it durable. Necro is not durable nor swift, we are not glass canon also, we are a glass stick, you can hit your enemy with it. But you probably shatter in the process

[Axl.8924]

> @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > > One 3 sec stack of stability every 10 sec is still laughable for a grand master trait. This is why it was changed to stunbreak. It is insufficient for amount of slow telegraphed attacks necro have.

> > >

> > > Also aside of wurm and sand swell or wurm and death charge in case of reaper, there is no mobility for necro. Non of necromancers weapon have anythink mobility oriented. While other classes are leaping and swirling not even fast but also with evade frames

> >

> > There is a abilty that increases speed, its just that its on a weapon(warhorn secondary)

> >

> > scourge at least has 1 option for speed up thats in build in the abilities itself, so i guess you could still go scepter warhorn for double options for speed for escaping?

> >

>

> Swiftness is not mobility tool, it is just slight movement speed increase, you cannot disengage using swiftness. I have no idea what is "scourge" option of escaping besides sand swell which I already covered. Necro mobility is bad, just bad.

> If you are making class slow, make it durable. Necro is not durable nor swift, we are not glass canon also, we are a glass stick, you can hit your enemy with it. But you probably shatter in the process

 

Isn't it sort of a mobility tool? i mean you can use it to run around and it makes you more mobile in a sense that you can run around avoiding stuff.Sure its not as good as say mesmers but its some mobility, and didn't tempest have like 2 runspeed increase abilities it could use? sure necro doesn't have super speed but it has locus signet and scourge one is built into the weapon itself if you take the right one, so you are able to have 2 up at all times:One from talent and one from weapon.

 

Its just that as you said we lack other options to keep us alive and dps on necro has always been lower than others in spvp.

[KrHome.1920]

I've seen Reapers with ridiculous mobility. Combining RS2, Wurm and Spectral Walk can result in really weird situations as you don't expect necros to be THAT mobile.

 

The problem is these skills are incredibly situational and clunky to use. RS2 is buggy, Wurm has a dumb cast time, Spectral Walk is technically not a port but a position reset.

 

I just want one simple **low cast time** teleport as a core utility (for all necro specs) - does not need to be instant, does not need to be a stunbreak, does not need to give LF. Then I could deal with 10s shroud cd, 5% degen and all that sustain nerfing the class got.

 

I would even be fine if ANet removes the Spectral Walk port and just make it a Swiftness + LF gain utility, but gave Wurm a 1/2s cast time instead.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Isn't it sort of a mobility tool? i mean you can use it to run around and it makes you more mobile in a sense that you can run around avoiding stuff.Sure its not as good as say mesmers but its some mobility, and didn't tempest have like 2 runspeed increase abilities it could use? sure necro doesn't have super speed but it has locus signet and scourge one is built into the weapon itself if you take the right one, so you are able to have 2 up at all times:One from talent and one from weapon.

>

> Its just that as you said we lack other options to keep us alive and dps on necro has always been lower than others in spvp.

 

Swiftness is not a mobility tool and doesn't really matter in any gamemode as in combat mobility, it's for moving the zerg slightly faster in WvW, being a damage buff in Raids and Fractals for classes with damage modifiers per boon/other related traits and being a cover boon in sPvP/WvW, increasing the chances a boon rip doesn't take off an important boon instead and increasing ability to rotate slightly.

 

No matter what burst spec jumps on you as Necro, swiftness is not going to make them lose track of you and switch targets or give you room to breathe and wait for CD's.

You need proper movement skills for that, aka, skills that move you at a way fast rate.

 

Tbh, I'm ok with the low mobility on Necromancer. The problem as so often with Necro is, ArenaNet refuses to compensate the plentiful weaknesses of Necro in other ways.

An immobile spec with little to medium range, with no scaling defense or stability is just waiting to get kicked in the face without extraordinary team support.

If Necro is supposed to be the on point teamfight powerhouse, it at least needs to be able to hold it's own against most if not all melee fighters, considering how hard countered Necro is by any sort of ranged pressure.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> I've seen Reapers with ridiculous mobility. Combining RS2, Wurm and Spectral Walk can result in really weird situations as you don't expect necros to be THAT mobile.

>

> The problem is these skills are incredibly situational and clunky to use. RS2 is buggy, Wurm has a dumb cast time, Spectral Walk is technically not a port but a position reset.

>

> I just want one simple **low cast time** teleport as a core utility (for all necro specs) - does not need to be instant, does not need to be a stunbreak, does not need to give LF. Then I could deal with 10s shroud cd, 5% degen and all that sustain nerfing the class got.

>

> I would even be fine if ANet removes the Spectral Walk port and just make it a Swiftness + LF gain utility, but gave Wurm a 1/2s cast time instead.

 

Kr top stuff, you got my weekly thumbs up mate. I'd push for this in a nano-second.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > > > One 3 sec stack of stability every 10 sec is still laughable for a grand master trait. This is why it was changed to stunbreak. It is insufficient for amount of slow telegraphed attacks necro have.

> > > >

> > > > Also aside of wurm and sand swell or wurm and death charge in case of reaper, there is no mobility for necro. Non of necromancers weapon have anythink mobility oriented. While other classes are leaping and swirling not even fast but also with evade frames

> > >

> > > There is a abilty that increases speed, its just that its on a weapon(warhorn secondary)

> > >

> > > scourge at least has 1 option for speed up thats in build in the abilities itself, so i guess you could still go scepter warhorn for double options for speed for escaping?

> > >

> >

> > Swiftness is not mobility tool, it is just slight movement speed increase, you cannot disengage using swiftness. I have no idea what is "scourge" option of escaping besides sand swell which I already covered. Necro mobility is bad, just bad.

> > If you are making class slow, make it durable. Necro is not durable nor swift, we are not glass canon also, we are a glass stick, you can hit your enemy with it. But you probably shatter in the process

>

> Isn't it sort of a mobility tool? i mean you can use it to run around and it makes you more mobile in a sense that you can run around avoiding stuff.Sure its not as good as say mesmers but its some mobility, and didn't tempest have like 2 runspeed increase abilities it could use? sure necro doesn't have super speed but it has locus signet and scourge one is built into the weapon itself if you take the right one, so you are able to have 2 up at all times:One from talent and one from weapon.

>

> Its just that as you said we lack other options to keep us alive and dps on necro has always been lower than others in spvp.

 

The problem is. Every other class has easier access to swiftness than necro does. So it's definetly not a mobility tool

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> The problem is. Every other class has easier access to swiftness than necro does. So it's definetly not a mobility tool

 

Oh please... the core necromancer have:

- _signet of the locust_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

- _quickening thrist_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

- _speed of shadow_ (potentially perma swiftness)

- _locust swarm_ (15 second swiftness every 30 seconds)

- _spectral walk_ (30 seconds swiftness on a 50 seconds CD)

- _spectral walk_ for instant movement.

- _summon flesh wurm_ for teleport.

- _Dark path_ teleport.

 

Reaper have most of the above with _dark path_ replaced by _death charge_.

 

Scourge have most of the core necromancer's movement ability with _dark path_ replaced by _sand swell_.

 

Guardians and revenants would sell their souls for a 25% passive increase movement and necromancers have 2 way to have it. Necromancer can easily maintain swiftness. The movement abilities of the necromancer are either cluncky as hell or stupidly gated behind life force, but that's the only complain that a necromancer can have in regard of mobility.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I'm pretty sure anet want the necromancer to be the best counter to boons. Which he is since HoT. The role is really strong on the paper and shine especially brightly in WvW. The only issue is that this is a niche role which lack flexibility and force the balance team to keep the necromancer performance in check so that he doesn't overperform in optimal situations.

> >

> > As a simple example, imagine an environment where foes have perma vigor and regeneration, the boons reapplying at an insane rate. In this kind of environment, the necromancer's condi dps would shot throught the roof.

> >

> > The same goes for power damages. Imagine a foe that cannot be critical hit. Against such a foe, life leeching ability shine brighter than any other abilities, increasing tremendously the damage done while still healing.

> >

> > The necromancer isn't weak, he is even potentially broken op dependant of the situation, it's just that the current game don't give him that much chance to display it's full potential outside of WvW.

> >

> > Seriously, Anet could just make sure that bosses have vigor on for the whole boss fight. You could even craft a silly excuse saying that it's necessary for the breakbar to charge. This wouldn't have much consequences to groups that don't own necromancers yet, this would allow necromancers to benefit from their supposed strength in a gamemode where they tend to be lacking.

>

> Finally someone who understands this.

>

> Necros are weak in PvE because of the encounter designs being nothing like the PvP environments.

>

> The class is a monster in the PvP modes and always has been when played well. Make PvE like PvP is and all of a sudden the class goes from meh/bad to top-tier/busted.

 

It’s the same problem Spellbreaker had when PoF launched as the spec also heavily relies on enemies having Boons for you to, well, _break_.

 

Boons are plentiful in PvP, almost absent in PvE.

 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

^ large sense of humor detected.

 

Amount of speed buffs means nothing when they don't stack with eachother. Bottom line necro ain't getting more then 25% passive movement speed that's not a boon (swiftness).

 

Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm are both utilities - these are extremely precious slots that usually get occupied by our major survival skills. Flesh Wurm can be considered as such - pop it in a safe place and it is your one button escape outta heat. But spectral? If you cast it midfight, then next cc will stop you dead (keyword) in your tracks. And porting 3 feet back with face still in the ground is hardly "life saving".

 

Dark Path....someone most likely just used lvl 80 boost, hopped on xpac HP train and never touched core necro. This....**thing** is the single most trashy skill necro has. You'll literally run half it's distance before it finally hits the target, and that's assuming the target was standing still hoping to get hit. If it happens to be an enemy player that you know....is capable of running....you might as well save yourself time casting this thing and just shout threats at him to stop. About same chances of success if you ask me.

 

Anything that is not hard above 33% movement speed (superspeed, mist form, ancestral grace) is not fit to be an escape tool, because everyone can catch up to it. It's mostly straight up teleports, shadowsteps and leaps that make a profession mobile. And necro drew the short end of the stick. Even his teleports (save sand swell) are simply returns to a previously marked position, which limits the direction or range of teleport (if insta-teleporting via flesh wurm).

 

Revs equip shiro and they got superspeed on demand and 1200 teleport to an enemy. Swords have some of porting goodness too. And for more traditional approach glint = 100% uptime swiftness for 1 energy upkeep.

 

Guards have their teleport in mediations and a gs leap. Hell even hammer has a leap. Not cream of the crop, but necro sure can dream about a 1200 range simple teleport, no setting up required...

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > The problem is. Every other class has easier access to swiftness than necro does. So it's definetly not a mobility tool

>

> Oh please... the core necromancer have:

> - _signet of the locust_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> - _quickening thrist_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> - _speed of shadow_ (potentially perma swiftness)

> - _locust swarm_ (15 second swiftness every 30 seconds)

> - _spectral walk_ (30 seconds swiftness on a 50 seconds CD)

> - _spectral walk_ for instant movement.

> - _summon flesh wurm_ for teleport.

> - _Dark path_ teleport.

>

> Reaper have most of the above with _dark path_ replaced by _death charge_.

>

> Scourge have most of the core necromancer's movement ability with _dark path_ replaced by _sand swell_.

>

> Guardians and revenants would sell their souls for a 25% passive increase movement and necromancers have 2 way to have it. Necromancer can easily maintain swiftness. The movement abilities of the necromancer are either cluncky as hell or stupidly gated behind life force, but that's the only complain that a necromancer can have in regard of mobility.

 

If you seriously think Guardian and Rev have less and less frequent in combat mobility and gap closers than Necromancer, then I think there is no point in even trying to explain, even if we ignore the fact that Necro can basically take non of these except WH on Reaper, because they all compete with other completely essential Traits and utilities, even if they weren't just passive movement boosts which are a mere convenience for out of combat and a minor nice to have in combat, or utterly clunky/slow to use.

 

Necros would sell their 25% movement buffs they don't use for blinks, leaps, blocks, projectile defense and invuls on most of their weapon sets and with solid utilities any time.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The problem is. Every other class has easier access to swiftness than necro does. So it's definetly not a mobility tool

> >

> > Oh please... the core necromancer have:

> > - _signet of the locust_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> > - _quickening thrist_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> > - _speed of shadow_ (potentially perma swiftness)

> > - _locust swarm_ (15 second swiftness every 30 seconds)

> > - _spectral walk_ (30 seconds swiftness on a 50 seconds CD)

> > - _spectral walk_ for instant movement.

> > - _summon flesh wurm_ for teleport.

> > - _Dark path_ teleport.

> >

> > Reaper have most of the above with _dark path_ replaced by _death charge_.

> >

> > Scourge have most of the core necromancer's movement ability with _dark path_ replaced by _sand swell_.

> >

> > Guardians and revenants would sell their souls for a 25% passive increase movement and necromancers have 2 way to have it. Necromancer can easily maintain swiftness. The movement abilities of the necromancer are either cluncky as hell or stupidly gated behind life force, but that's the only complain that a necromancer can have in regard of mobility.

>

> If you seriously think Guardian and Rev have less and less frequent in combat mobility and gap closers than Necromancer, then I think there is no point in even trying to explain

 

Nobody said that.

 

The topic was " 1) permanent swiftness, 2) how a necro can achieve it and 3) whether other classes have better or worse ways to gain permanent swiftness".

 

He clearly differentiated between swiftness not improving mobility (it once did, when it affected leap distance), necro mobility options and that the latter are inferior to other classes because of clunkyness. All of this is true.

 

Good old times when RS2 became an 800 range leap because of swiftness (600 x 1,33)...

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The problem is. Every other class has easier access to swiftness than necro does. So it's definetly not a mobility tool

> >

> > Oh please... the core necromancer have:

> > - _signet of the locust_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> > - _quickening thrist_ (increase passive movement by 25%)

> > - _speed of shadow_ (potentially perma swiftness)

> > - _locust swarm_ (15 second swiftness every 30 seconds)

> > - _spectral walk_ (30 seconds swiftness on a 50 seconds CD)

> > - _spectral walk_ for instant movement.

> > - _summon flesh wurm_ for teleport.

> > - _Dark path_ teleport.

> >

> > Reaper have most of the above with _dark path_ replaced by _death charge_.

> >

> > Scourge have most of the core necromancer's movement ability with _dark path_ replaced by _sand swell_.

> >

> > Guardians and revenants would sell their souls for a 25% passive increase movement and necromancers have 2 way to have it. Necromancer can easily maintain swiftness. The movement abilities of the necromancer are either cluncky as hell or stupidly gated behind life force, but that's the only complain that a necromancer can have in regard of mobility.

>

> If you seriously think Guardian and Rev have less and less frequent in combat mobility and gap closers than Necromancer, then I think there is no point in even trying to explain, even if we ignore the fact that Necro can basically take non of these except WH on Reaper, because they all compete with other completely essential Traits and utilities, even if they weren't just passive movement boosts which are a mere convenience for out of combat and a minor nice to have in combat, or utterly clunky/slow to use.

>

> Necros would sell their 25% movement buffs they don't use for blinks, leaps, blocks, projectile defense and invuls on most of their weapon sets and with solid utilities any time.

 

Playing reaper dagger/warhorn & axe/dagger work really coupled with blood magic work really well. But maybe it hurt some players that it's not meta. Speed of shadow is easily taken when you don't take the crappy staff. Some players are really successfull by sloting wurm for mobility. And last but not least spectral walk is always usefull.

 

The necromancer just don't have what players want on their weaponset. My initial statement is still right:

> The movement abilities of the necromancer are either cluncky as hell or stupidly gated behind life force, but that's the only complain that a necromancer can have in regard of mobility.

 

Nothing good will come out of not aknowledging the fact that the necromancer have the tools for mobility. The issue lie elsewhere.

 

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

>

> Nobody said that.

>

> The topic was " 1) permanent swiftness, 2) how a necro can achieve it and 3) whether other classes have better or worse ways to gain permanent swiftness".

>

> He clearly differentiated between swiftness not improving mobility (it once did, when it affected leap distance), necro mobility options and that the latter are inferior to other classes because of clunkyness. All of this is true.

>

>

 

Thank you.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> bit over-dramatic? the "focus necro"-meta exists because necro is dangerous and can easily win a team fight if left alone. A trick i've seen is to wait a couple of seconds behind your team since ppl don't tend to notice you as fast.

>

Pretty much what use i do >.> The Sudden from behind the tree or behind the rock Reaper :# makes people fluster

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Virelion.4128" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > I like when people insist that the developers don't like a profession and thus everything bad is because the developers are torturing their customers.

> >

> > They rather don't know what to do with it. The last "rework" of reaper was just nerfs to sustain and making auto atracks of instantly decaying shroud better. While classes like mesmer, guardian getting meaningful reworks. Necro still laugh at their entire specs like death magic.

>

> I am pretty sure they know what they are doing with it. Getting it to where they want it to go is a different matter but I've seen no evidence that they don't know what to do with it. However, one faction is bound to be the bottom of the dog pile. No matter how hard a gaming company works there is always going to be a bottom. This problem has plagued gaming in general for decades.

 

Having been playing this game from release... No they don't. They think they do, but everything they do with necro turns out broken and nerfed to the ground.

It's always the same pattern, they release something, it works, its great, necro becomes strong, they get scared, and just nerf it to the ground. The clearest sign of this, is that at a time where for all other professions they're mostly tweakign the PoF elites, they're still tweaking reaper while keeping scourge just broken. That's because not only they don't really know what they want with necro, but they don't have the creative chops to pull it off.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Isn't it sort of a mobility tool? i mean you can use it to run around and it makes you more mobile in a sense that you can run around avoiding stuff.Sure its not as good as say mesmers but its some mobility, and didn't tempest have like 2 runspeed increase abilities it could use? sure necro doesn't have super speed but it has locus signet and scourge one is built into the weapon itself if you take the right one, so you are able to have 2 up at all times:One from talent and one from weapon.

> >

> > Its just that as you said we lack other options to keep us alive and dps on necro has always been lower than others in spvp.

>

> Swiftness is not a mobility tool and doesn't really matter in any gamemode as in combat mobility, it's for moving the zerg slightly faster in WvW, being a damage buff in Raids and Fractals for classes with damage modifiers per boon/other related traits and being a cover boon in sPvP/WvW, increasing the chances a boon rip doesn't take off an important boon instead and increasing ability to rotate slightly.

>

> No matter what burst spec jumps on you as Necro, swiftness is not going to make them lose track of you and switch targets or give you room to breathe and wait for CD's.

> You need proper movement skills for that, aka, skills that move you at a way fast rate.

>

> Tbh, I'm ok with the low mobility on Necromancer. The problem as so often with Necro is, ArenaNet refuses to compensate the plentiful weaknesses of Necro in other ways.

> An immobile spec with little to medium range, with no scaling defense or stability is just waiting to get kicked in the face without extraordinary team support.

> If Necro is supposed to be the on point teamfight powerhouse, it at least needs to be able to hold it's own against most if not all melee fighters, considering how hard countered Necro is by any sort of ranged pressure.

 

Well consider a few things

 

Necros sustain is partly based form conditions you have applied on your foe. Once you start chilling, weakening, crippling, blinding your foe your survivability improves rather drastically depending on their ability to clear an fight around those conditions. How ever if you get jumped on first you have not applied any conditions and thus you are easier to kill. That said conditions are trivial they can be removed and cleared too easily in alot of the meta builds right now.

 

Even as a pure power necro "YOU NEEED" those conditions on your foes in any kind of pvp situation. If boon corrupt ever got changed to just boon strip necro would be in alot of trouble.