1-Shot Soulbeast -- An example of the worst "balance"

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > >

> > > > Afraid of harming other builds. There are stronger 1 shot builds than soulbeast. Until those get nerfed, I don't think soulbeast should be touched.

> > > >

> > > > People are acting like this soulbeast build is viable and more of an issue than mantra mes or deadeye. This isn't the case.

> > > >

> > > > Your first suggested change hurts every other soulbeast build except the 1 shot. They should only implement the second if it applied to all attacks on every class from stealth.

> > >

> > > Sure it hurts them, but like I said, this should never have been a thing in the first place. Doesn't make any sense for you to attack literally nothing, then have your pet get enraged. I mean may as well just telepathically tell your pet to have Moment of Clarity, no need to attack. **Logic aside, what build exactly would this hurt? Neither core ranger nor druid rely on mauling thin air then following up with their pet f2 to make use of that +50% damage.** It's more of a reward for skillfully landing maul on an actual target, not a necessary or keystone part of the build.

> > >

> > > **As for the second change, you mentioned that you use WI to blast smoke fields. Fine, just lower the reveal timer to 0.25s or 0.5s, and have it begin the moment you cast WI. This way, the reveal expires as your blast finisher occurs so you will still be able to blast smoke fields.**

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes they do. It's part of playing greatsword properly.

> >

> > Sorry, your suggestion is awful. Tying a reveal to a leap/blast finisher is counter-intuitive and why do you assume I use WI as the first stealth? If I'm already in stealth and want to extend the duration with a smoke field + WI, it reveals me first??

> >

> > You basically want to make it so situations like this would happen: I have 9 seconds of stealth. Use WI to blast a smoke field. It reveals me and I end up with 3 seconds instead.

> >

> > ...

>

> Alright then, what would you suggest? You can't say do nothing; this build is a problem and needs to go. It's just a matter of what's the best way of eradicating it without harming other builds too much.

 

This build is a problem for who exactly?

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Afraid of harming other builds. There are stronger 1 shot builds than soulbeast. Until those get nerfed, I don't think soulbeast should be touched.

> > > > >

> > > > > People are acting like this soulbeast build is viable and more of an issue than mantra mes or deadeye. This isn't the case.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your first suggested change hurts every other soulbeast build except the 1 shot. They should only implement the second if it applied to all attacks on every class from stealth.

> > > >

> > > > Sure it hurts them, but like I said, this should never have been a thing in the first place. Doesn't make any sense for you to attack literally nothing, then have your pet get enraged. I mean may as well just telepathically tell your pet to have Moment of Clarity, no need to attack. **Logic aside, what build exactly would this hurt? Neither core ranger nor druid rely on mauling thin air then following up with their pet f2 to make use of that +50% damage.** It's more of a reward for skillfully landing maul on an actual target, not a necessary or keystone part of the build.

> > > >

> > > > **As for the second change, you mentioned that you use WI to blast smoke fields. Fine, just lower the reveal timer to 0.25s or 0.5s, and have it begin the moment you cast WI. This way, the reveal expires as your blast finisher occurs so you will still be able to blast smoke fields.**

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes they do. It's part of playing greatsword properly.

> > >

> > > Sorry, your suggestion is awful. Tying a reveal to a leap/blast finisher is counter-intuitive and why do you assume I use WI as the first stealth? If I'm already in stealth and want to extend the duration with a smoke field + WI, it reveals me first??

> > >

> > > You basically want to make it so situations like this would happen: I have 9 seconds of stealth. Use WI to blast a smoke field. It reveals me and I end up with 3 seconds instead.

> > >

> > > ...

> >

> > Alright then, what would you suggest? You can't say do nothing; this build is a problem and needs to go. It's just a matter of what's the best way of eradicating it without harming other builds too much.

>

> This build is a problem for who exactly?

>

 

No one.

 

It's just that the legend of the harsh master, the 1 person who actually runs this shoddy build structure, is making them believe it is a problem.

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524"

> >

> > Actually, I have a solution. Move the taunt from the end of the f3 cast to the beginning.

> >

> > Although the taunt will make it easier to land Worldly Impact, it will also give a warning to the taunted player(s) as to when the attack is coming.

> >

> > Problem solved.

>

> Or.... as I said before, a hard cap on single attack damage that exceeds a certain % of a person's health, with exceptions made for certain select skills (IE DJ).

 

No this is bad. If two people go glass cannon then they should be able to 1 shot each other. Having a hard cap would actually buff glassier builds in a weird way because they won't die as fast as they should. Some classes also have multiple pockets of damage that hit at the same time. Others don't. So this would also just nerf some but not all burst builds when the 1 hit burst builds can be countered by just using a single aegis or blind. There is also base health to consider. In a weird way this change would buff glass ele and guardian more than a glass necro or warrior.

 

Having the taunt at the beginning of the cast is actually one of the best changes I've seen recommend in this thread but I don't think @"shadowpass.4236" even knows the full extent of why WI is bugged with certain traits.

See this for a full discussion:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/50267/wordly-impact-needs-a-serious-nerf#latest

TLDR of the above link: Wordly impact procs live fast and beastly warden in a weird way. They proc at the end of the cast but before the damage. This allows WI to buff itself with remorseless, MoC, twice as vicious, and interrupt sigils. This means WI can do massive damage from stealth with zero might/vuln stacking with no tell. This is very different than the might stacking heal wasting whao build.

 

If the taunt started at the beginning of the cast (as it does with pets) it would give 1 shot build a tell from stealth without actually revealing the SB. If the taunt happened after the damage, WI wouldn't be able to buff itself by ~50-65% from stealth. Moving live fast to proc after the damage won't affect the opening burst but will affect the casting of WI mid fight.

 

MoC also probably should be nerfed/changed. 25% bonus on a single hit. Maybe 15% bonus damage on the next 3 hits after an interrupt.

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Or.... as I said before, a hard cap on single attack damage that exceeds a certain % of a person's health, with exceptions made for certain select skills (IE DJ).

> > >

> > > Thats a terrible suggestion.

> >

> > You want to say why?

>

> Because vitality would be a useless stat. Say you'd cap this damage at 50%, you wouldn't get oneshot as a zerk deadeye, fa ele or zerk guard. It's dumbing down an already easy game. WI is not the issue, it's the 8k longbow autos, 17k rapid fires that are also unblockable. Especially on coliseum.

 

Most skills don't generally do crits of 8-9k even against a pure glass build -- and who says it has to be 50%? It could easily be 75%.

 

The difference is it would prevent extreme edge cases like this oneshot build while also preserving most class design.

 

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Afraid of harming other builds. There are stronger 1 shot builds than soulbeast. Until those get nerfed, I don't think soulbeast should be touched.

> > > > >

> > > > > People are acting like this soulbeast build is viable and more of an issue than mantra mes or deadeye. This isn't the case.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your first suggested change hurts every other soulbeast build except the 1 shot. They should only implement the second if it applied to all attacks on every class from stealth.

> > > >

> > > > Sure it hurts them, but like I said, this should never have been a thing in the first place. Doesn't make any sense for you to attack literally nothing, then have your pet get enraged. I mean may as well just telepathically tell your pet to have Moment of Clarity, no need to attack. **Logic aside, what build exactly would this hurt? Neither core ranger nor druid rely on mauling thin air then following up with their pet f2 to make use of that +50% damage.** It's more of a reward for skillfully landing maul on an actual target, not a necessary or keystone part of the build.

> > > >

> > > > **As for the second change, you mentioned that you use WI to blast smoke fields. Fine, just lower the reveal timer to 0.25s or 0.5s, and have it begin the moment you cast WI. This way, the reveal expires as your blast finisher occurs so you will still be able to blast smoke fields.**

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes they do. It's part of playing greatsword properly.

> > >

> > > Sorry, your suggestion is awful. Tying a reveal to a leap/blast finisher is counter-intuitive and why do you assume I use WI as the first stealth? If I'm already in stealth and want to extend the duration with a smoke field + WI, it reveals me first??

> > >

> > > You basically want to make it so situations like this would happen: I have 9 seconds of stealth. Use WI to blast a smoke field. It reveals me and I end up with 3 seconds instead.

> > >

> > > ...

> >

> > Alright then, what would you suggest? You can't say do nothing; this build is a problem and needs to go. It's just a matter of what's the best way of eradicating it without harming other builds too much.

>

> This build is a problem for who exactly?

>

 

Anybody who thinks literal one shots shouldn't exist in any competitive MMO.

 

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524"

> > >

> > > Actually, I have a solution. Move the taunt from the end of the f3 cast to the beginning.

> > >

> > > Although the taunt will make it easier to land Worldly Impact, it will also give a warning to the taunted player(s) as to when the attack is coming.

> > >

> > > Problem solved.

> >

> > Or.... as I said before, a hard cap on single attack damage that exceeds a certain % of a person's health, with exceptions made for certain select skills (IE DJ).

>

> No this is bad. If two people go glass cannon then they should be able to 1 shot each other. Having a hard cap would actually buff glassier builds in a weird way because they won't die as fast as they should. Some classes also have multiple pockets of damage that hit at the same time. Others don't. So this would also just nerf some but not all burst builds when the 1 hit burst builds can be countered by just using a single aegis or blind. There is also base health to consider. In a weird way this change would buff glass ele and guardian more than a glass necro or warrior.

 

The hard cap I suggested is supposed to allow people's defensive traits to trigger. As it stands, single skills that are capable of this kind of damage skip over people's build design entirely. Any skill that has to hit multiple times allows these defenses to activate.

 

And I'm not suggesting the hard cap is anything "nice." I mentioned values of nearly 10k, or upwards of 75%. That's plenty of wiggle room for two-shots.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I do want to point out what is going to happen when Beasty Warden procs at the beginning of Wordly Impact instead of the end:

* Normal Soulbeast is not using stealthing gimmicks or stealth at all to skirmish with some player

* The Soulbeast goes to use Worldly Impact

* Normally the other player would see the animation of Worldy Impact and have plenty of time to dodge roll or just walk away from the impact radius

* But now normal player gets taunted first, begins walking towards the Soulbeast and must take the WI damage unless he has a stunbreak on demand and can react quickly enough to not only push the stunbreak but also dodge afterwards, all within the animation time of WI. If the Soulbeast currently has quickness on, G'Luck with that.

 

This idea for Beastly Warden procing at the beginning of WI instead of the end is just going to create a different problem in a different way. Even if this change did happen, you guys do realize that most of the time the Soulbeast is doing the WI out of stealth, he has quickness on. So you're gonna see like 0.10s worth of Taunt above your head before the WI hits anyway. I do not believe this will be an adequate change. Honestly boys, it's the sheer damage that is the problem here, not the mechanics.

 

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I do want to point out what is going to happen when Beasty Warden procs at the beginning of Wordly Impact instead of the end:

> * Normal Soulbeast is not using stealthing gimmicks or stealth at all to skirmish with some player

> * The Soulbeast goes to use Worldly Impact

> * Normally the other player would see the animation of Worldy Impact and have plenty of time to dodge roll or just walk away from the impact radius

> * But now normal player gets taunted first, begins walking towards the Soulbeast and must take the WI damage unless he has a stunbreak on demand and can react quickly enough to not only push the stunbreak but also dodge afterwards, all within the animation time of WI. If the Soulbeast currently has quickness on, G'Luck with that.

>

> This idea for Beastly Warden procing at the beginning of WI instead of the end is just going to create a different problem in a different way. Even if this change did happen, you guys do realize that most of the time the Soulbeast is doing the WI out of stealth, he has quickness on. So you're gonna see like 0.10s worth of Taunt above your head before the WI hits anyway. I do not believe this will be an adequate change. Honestly boys, it's the sheer damage that is the problem here, not the mechanics.

>

 

Fair point. I was thinking the taunt would give a warning so people could break it and dodge.

 

I've always wanted the taunt to be at the start of F3 skills, as it is on the start of pet f2 skills. However, moving the taunt to after the cast will prevent the WI from proccing MoC on itself. This, could be a better solution as it would cause the WI to lose the 50% buff from MoC or the 25% buff from Remorseless (since you'd have to interrupt with another attack first).

 

However, the taunt at the start WOULD still be a good QoL change for soulbeast overall.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'm honestly not even sure how it should be handled at this point, but the CC coming at the end after WI deals its damage is probably a good start.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I'm honestly not even sure how it should be handled at this point, but the CC coming at the end after WI deals its damage is probably a good start.

 

Yup. I agree. The taunt at the end removes an even bigger modifier than Sic Em. That will stop the 30k WI's from hitting.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

More I sit and think about it, I think that suggestion is probably right on the money. If the CC doesn't happen until the end after the damage lands, they can't benefit MoC unless they were to come out of stealth with a Hilt Bash or some otherwise revealing CC, giving a tell to the WI.

 

One other thing that could help A LOT is a very small fix to Sic'Em. As of now it doesn't count as an attack for the purposes of bringing a player "into combat" so it can be used while stealthed without revealing the Soulbeast. This is actually kind of messed up because the Soulbeast can wait to use that until the last second while he's stealthed & approaching his opponent without being revealed. Then after that WI, whether his opponent is left standing or downed and getting cleaved, he's got 9s left of +40% damage buff as he slaps around mauls and hilt bashes into mauls. Sic'Em should probably count as an offensive action so that it reveals the Soulbeast. This way, in the case of a true 1-Shot Build like what Harsh Master runs, he has to choose whether to use Sic'Em before his stealth rotation, or after the initial Maul or WI that he lands coming out of stealth. So he has to choose whether to attempt to land Sic'Em with a much shorter stealth rotation and much less time in stealth, or wait to use it with the 2nd strike out of stealth.

 

Between those two changes alone, it would do much to satisfy the concerns of WI damage stacking:

* It would still be possible to stack MoC, Remorseless, and Sic'Em for a +115% bonus, but not with AoO. With a 2 hit combo "Hilt Bash out of stealth procs MoC, Activate Sic'Em, Activate a skill to proc fury, Land the WI" This gives much more of a tell than the way it works now with a literal 1 shot coming blind out of stealth. He could not however stack AoO with that because when he goes to hit with Hilt Bash, it will consume the AoO. This perfectly timed skill string wouldn't be so easy to do either. So if a player is landing it like this, other players can't complain about it.

* It would still be possible to stack AoO, Remorseless, and Sic'Em, for a +90% bonus but not with MoC "which this would be easier to do than the above combo" and this makes sense that it deals less damage. With this combo they just prep the AoO with maul and then get close, use Sic'Em, Pop skill to proc fury, Land the WI. Still gonna be a lot of damage and ability to come blind out of stealth but it won't be the legendary 1-Shot that it is now.

* Concerning Soulbeasts who don't even run the Marks line, the most they can stack is AoO and Sic'Em for a +65% bonus. The most stealth they have access to is LB#3 and GS#3 through Smokescale field and/or WI also in the Smokescale field. Maximum of 7s of stealth if they burn WI for the stack, and maximum 5s of stealth if they want to keep WI for a strike. Realistically after the time taken to stack the stealth, they have about 3s to 4s to actually get somewhere and land a WI. In this case they're burning a Maul to prep AoO and activating Sic'Em right as they're on top of the opponent's head. It won't be a 1-Shot unless some Ele is standing there with a Berserker amulet and no protection on.

 

Just 2x very simple fixes that don't disturb Core Ranger or other Soulbeast specs at all:

~ Taunt from Beasty Warden now happens at the end of Worldly Impact AFTER it deals its damage

~ Sic'Em now puts the Ranger "In combat" when successfully used on a target

 

[sephiroth.4217]

just my 2 cents...

 

Worldy impact and the damage wouldn't be so high if stacking raw stats wasnt so easy....

 

strength of the pack to rapid fire to heal as one.... 25 stacks of might which is a huge increase to damage then you have extra stats from merging with pet....

 

Maybe instead of focusing on trait lines that effect all 3 ranger specs, maybe just look at how might stacks work when you are merged with your pet or reduce the stats you gain when merging with a pet, this way only soul beast is effected.