Rysdude.3824 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > Buff mezmer You know, considering the posters, Im starting to think this thread was created to intentionally draw attention away from the loud nerf threads going on in some profession forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > Really glad you joined the thread. Was tired of being one of the only people who understands Holo here. I agree with the person who said the only folks complaining about Holo are silver-tier. It's a strong spec, but there are other strong specs. My advice to them: play it for a while, learn how to beat it, come back to this thread and say "Yeah you guys were right." > > People want to undermine anyone with another opinion by degrading them and claiming they are low tiered or bad. I'm plat 2. And i've been with this game since launch. There are a lot of nerf this and nerf that on the forums. And quite frankly, a lot of the complaints have a lot of validity. There is a lot that needs to be balanced. I don't dismiss anyone's claims. I try to look at it through their perspective, and i give my opinion. If your opinion can't stand on its own without first degrading someone with another opinion, then maybe what you have to say isn't valid. that's just my take on it. There's no denying holosmith is definitely a powercreeped engi spec. It's completely eclipsed scrapper. But it's not the only powercreeped spec. Mesmer, Warrior, Guardian, Ranger, Necro, Thief, and to a lesser extent, ele and rev, have also been powercreeped. Holo doesn't actually stand out from the crowd in any regards to these. I'd offer it's at least a little *fairer* because the tells are huge and obvious (especially when compared to scourge or mirage), but it's still a long ways away from core's balance. Right now, I'd just rather not have any outliers in the relative balance scale. Then we can hopefully work on bringing them all down together to match core, roughly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkaline.2938 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 These people sound a lot like I did when I started to pvp and got stomped by a class. I would think x class is OP as fuck. I would go and learn about the class, how to play as one and counter it. My ignorance of other classes made me assume they were OP when in fact it was just a simple l2p issue. These people complaining clearly have never even looked at an engi build much less played on for any amount of time. They cry nerfs to holo yet list core skills. Claim holos have x,y and z options at all times yet ignore the impossibly of there claims. I believe so far it seems holos have alchemy, invention, tools and holo trait lines at all times. To top it off we also have no less than 5 utility slots. Fuck me, my ui must be bugged because I cant seem to find all this extra stuff I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > ... > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysdude.3824 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > ... > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. Im not so sure. I think if players of equal skill played holo vs SB/Weaver/Reaper, it’d be a tough fight. Weaver can out sustain it, SB can kite it and/or out damage it and and Reaper can corrupt it. Weaknesses I can see for a holo are boon corrupt, boon removal, kiting if using sword and board, imob makes holo’s life hard. Holos are actually pretty squishy so well susceptible to focus fire. Holo condi removal is limited to cauterize, the light field from HLA, and the trait which converts 2 (or 3) if traited. Cauterize is rarely, if ever, taken over the benefits of healing turret. And HLA only works in some builds and easily counterable. It does access to a decent amount of boons but you have to build for the duration as holo doesnt have inherent concentration boost. It has one stun break. And three CC in forge 5, elite skill and pull from HLA (tool belt skill). Holo players have already recommended small increases to forge skills for balance. Other things you named belong to core engi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > ... > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. * Can you have power damage? Yes! * Can you have condi damage? Yes! * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! * Can you be really mobile? Yes! * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. ---- Also, I just want to point out a few things: * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > ---- > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > ---- > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPESHAL.9106 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Reapers aren't the only class that can chain-lock Holosmiths. Warriors do it all the time, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > Buff mezmer > > You know, considering the posters, Im starting to think this thread was created to intentionally draw attention away from the loud nerf threads going on in some profession forums. People still think things get nerfed based on how much louder they're on the forum..and not because of obvious examples in game..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman Reaper has less active defense and mobility, but vastly more burst damage, aoe damage and control than a Holosmith. They're tradeoffs, making reaper better in some situations, and worse in others. I can beat most reapers, but sometimes I have to take one or two "passes" at it, poking their defenses and recovering from their first/second volley of damage. They're one of two classes, including spellbreaker, that routinely do that to me. Holosmith also depending on the build struggles greatly with CC, burst damage or condis. You don't get it all with one build or one weapon set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siopao.7436 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Posts like these should have a required clip attachment showing OP actually tried to play what he is complaining about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman > > No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. how is that possible? a holo has with corona burst 66 % uptime on stability. every 6 seconds recast. the cc chain of holo is rifle 4 (14 sec cd), forged form 5 15 sec cd, elite that skills have also MORE range on cc AND way lower cds than reaper. so a holo can way better chain cc permanently than reaper that have RS 5 (30 sec cd), rs 3 (25 sec cd), chilll to the bones (90 sec cd). also GS 5 has 25 sec cd. if you compare holo and reaper Photon forge(PF) 2 600 range leap 2 sec cd RS 2 600 range leap 6 sec cd PF 3 stability on 6 sec cd RS3 stability on 25 sec cd PF 5 5 enemies stunned in 600 range radius 15 sec cd RS 5 1 enemy stunned in 240 range on 30 sec cd holo is like reaper with 1/3 the cds and WAY more stability AND mobility AND Sustain. and since everyone in this game is saying reaper is FINE. holosmith (that is obvious 3 times better) is simply OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman > > No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. Then don't pop a stunbreak before the 2nd cc lands? Or stunbreak and immediately dodge? Grasping Darkness has a 1s animation delay, Executioner's Scythe has a 1.25s cast, Chilled to the Bone is 1.25s cast. Terrify and Wail of Doom both have 0.5s casts. There is no excuse for you to misuse your stunbreak given the ridiculous telegraph on the entire stun combo your whining about. I also have no idea how a reaper "sneaking up" on you is going to matter. Reaper isn't exactly known for having amazing alpha strike damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtoPScrub.5476 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Engi has so much stabo through corona burst and elixar U there's zero reason why you should get CC chained to death unless you played very poorly. The spec is very forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > Engi has so much stabo through corona burst and elixar U there's zero reason why you should get CC chained to death unless you played very poorly. The spec is very forgiving. again, why take elexir u in current meta? we dont need the quickness , looking at kinetic battery and elexir u's toolbelt skill is useless .. reaper only need to corrupt corona stab and its gg when u get cc chained by them from holo standpoint. equal skilled reaper vs holo is always a 50/50 dont know why ppl think we arent weak against cc chains (just like every other proffession) our tankyness comes from active defenses (which u can play around when u know cd's) and iron bloodded trait which gives around 10% defense generally most of the time, sure it can get higher depending on ur team comp and boons output but thats about it. healing is mostly from turret water fields and heat therapy (u need to get out of forge to rly get the benefit here) or use vent exhaust ofc for some quick healing. only reason we stay alive is being able to cc ppl that are too clueless to dodge the flashy skills. rly l2p issue there on holographic shockwave, only cc i can think off which is kinda annoying to deal with is rifle 4 even tho we self get knocked back by that (unless ure willing to use a stab on that aswell) altho have to agree holo's feels kinda overperforming atm but not in the manner that op or some other ppl here are complaining about. most of it is l2p issue rly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtoPScrub.5476 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > Engi has so much stabo through corona burst and elixar U there's zero reason why you should get CC chained to death unless you played very poorly. The spec is very forgiving. > > again, why take elexir u in current meta? we dont need the quickness , looking at kinetic battery and elexir u's toolbelt skill is useless .. > reaper only need to corrupt corona stab and its gg when u get cc chained by them from holo standpoint. > equal skilled reaper vs holo is always a 50/50 > dont know why ppl think we arent weak against cc chains (just like every other proffession) > our tankyness comes from active defenses (which u can play around when u know cd's) and iron bloodded trait which gives around 10% defense generally most of the time, sure it can get higher depending on ur team comp and boons output but thats about it. > healing is mostly from turret water fields and heat therapy (u need to get out of forge to rly get the benefit here) or use vent exhaust ofc for some quick healing. > only reason we stay alive is being able to cc ppl that are too clueless to dodge the flashy skills. rly l2p issue there on holographic shockwave, only cc i can think off which is kinda annoying to deal with is rifle 4 even tho we self get knocked back by that (unless ure willing to use a stab on that aswell) > > altho have to agree holo's feels kinda overperforming atm but not in the manner that op or some other ppl here are complaining about. most of it is l2p issue rly > Nearly every top engi takes elixir U now. You are greatly overestimating the amount of quickness you get from kinetic battery. And you are forgetting most reaper CCs are hilariously telegraphed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 An Axe/Focus + Corrupt Boon (Spite/Curses/ or Spite/SR) Marauder Reaper has a 50/50 matchup with Holosmith on higher skill levels. On lower skill levels the Reaper just destroys that Holo before it even comes close. Elixir U -> Corrupt Boon (extremely valuable after recent buff!): Fear, Slow, Bleed - there you go Holo burst! A Wells Reaper gets destroyed by every Holo above bronze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Zero.3871" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > > > > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman > > > > No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. > > how is that possible? a holo has with corona burst 66 % uptime on stability. every 6 seconds recast. the cc chain of holo is rifle 4 (14 sec cd), forged form 5 15 sec cd, elite that skills have also MORE range on cc AND way lower cds than reaper. so a holo can way better chain cc permanently than reaper that have RS 5 (30 sec cd), rs 3 (25 sec cd), chilll to the bones (90 sec cd). also GS 5 has 25 sec cd. > > if you compare holo and reaper > > Photon forge(PF) 2 600 range leap 2 sec cd > RS 2 600 range leap 6 sec cd > > PF 3 stability on 6 sec cd > RS3 stability on 25 sec cd > > PF 5 5 enemies stunned in 600 range radius 15 sec cd > RS 5 1 enemy stunned in 240 range on 30 sec cd > > holo is like reaper with 1/3 the cds and WAY more stability AND mobility AND Sustain. > and since everyone in this game is saying reaper is FINE. holosmith (that is obvious 3 times better) is simply OP. > I love it! Based on what you've said, Holosmith spends all fight every fight in Photon Forge, never leaving. How else would we keep permanent 66% uptime on stability, just staying in good old Photon Forge which has no counter mechanism right? Can we fly too? Seriously though, you can compare classes, but Holo and Reaper fill two different roles. I don't see a reaper on my team and think "Crap I need to switch or ask him to switch, otherwise we'll be disadvantaged, because I'm worth three of these reapers!" You can compare them, but it's apples to oranges. I'm just about done with this thread though. Clearly, it's popular with gold-tier players to just say "Holo has it all, always." Without taking time to understand the spec, its counterbalance and exactly what makes it strong right now. Last time I'll say it: Yes, it's overperforming a bit right now, but every Holo build in the meta has a counter, which means it's not crazy OP. Holo needs a few shaves, but only if a few other specs get shaved as well. /Done. Good luck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > > > > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > > > > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > > > > > > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman > > > > > > No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. > > > > how is that possible? a holo has with corona burst 66 % uptime on stability. every 6 seconds recast. the cc chain of holo is rifle 4 (14 sec cd), forged form 5 15 sec cd, elite that skills have also MORE range on cc AND way lower cds than reaper. so a holo can way better chain cc permanently than reaper that have RS 5 (30 sec cd), rs 3 (25 sec cd), chilll to the bones (90 sec cd). also GS 5 has 25 sec cd. > > > > if you compare holo and reaper > > > > Photon forge(PF) 2 600 range leap 2 sec cd > > RS 2 600 range leap 6 sec cd > > > > PF 3 stability on 6 sec cd > > RS3 stability on 25 sec cd > > > > PF 5 5 enemies stunned in 600 range radius 15 sec cd > > RS 5 1 enemy stunned in 240 range on 30 sec cd > > > > holo is like reaper with 1/3 the cds and WAY more stability AND mobility AND Sustain. > > and since everyone in this game is saying reaper is FINE. holosmith (that is obvious 3 times better) is simply OP. > > > > I love it! Based on what you've said, Holosmith spends all fight every fight in Photon Forge, never leaving. How else would we keep permanent 66% uptime on stability, just staying in good old Photon Forge which has no counter mechanism right? > > Can we fly too? > > Seriously though, you can compare classes, but Holo and Reaper fill two different roles. I don't see a reaper on my team and think "Crap I need to switch or we'll be disadvantaged, because I'm worth three of these reapers!" You can compare them, but it's apples to oranges. > > I'm just about done with this thread though. Clearly, it's popular with gold-tier players to just say "Holo has it all, always." Without taking time to understand the spec, its counterbalance and exactly what makes it strong right now. > > Last time I'll say it: Yes, it's overperforming a bit right now, but every Holo build in the meta has a counter, which means it's not crazy OP. Holo needs a few shaves, but only if a few other specs get shaved as well. > > /Done. Good luck all. ahahahahahhaaaa xD, yes if you leave forged form you can just use Elixier s until you can enter it the next time, or your Shield block (both also negate stunn effects), or your invis, or your 50% dmg reduction + perma every boon (including protection so that you with all effects stacked just got 20% dmg of the initial hit). common. holo has already Sustain like a warrior, and thats more than enough to re enter forged form. so you are never in danger of stunns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Zero.3871" said: > > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, **that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong**, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said...Engie doesn't need a total rework...The mobility is prolly what needs to be nerfed. They have far too many rocket boot et al type movement boosts on far too short a cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only mobility skill like "rocket boots et al" that we have is... Rocket Boots. If that qualifies the whole class as "high mobility" to you, let me show what a thief can do with their bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holosmith's resilience is off the charts. They have a lot of damage mitigation, healing, stealth, invulns. It's really over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, I wish I could play this imaginary holosmith everybody comes up with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo is the most survivable bruiser build right after SB, yet it does significantly higher damage and ton of CC. It currently outperforms weaver, reaper SB and core guardian as a bruiser build. It also has no weaknesses. It is not susceptible to focus fire, has strong condi removal, access to many boons with long durations. Multiple CC breaks and stability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never played this mystical holo you speak of. Maybe I'm just not doing it right after maining engineer for 6 years now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have power damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have condi damage? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stability and stunbreaks? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you be really mobile? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you tank power damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you tank condi damage really well? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of CC? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > * Can you have a ton of stealth? Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can only pick 2 out of these 8, and you may be able to scrape in the CC as a bonus. The meta builds allow you to survive well against one type of damage and dish out a good amount of power or condi damage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Conversion holo protects heavily against condi, vulnerable to power spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > > > * Static Protection protects heavily against power, vulnerable to condi spikes and corruption. It dishes out good power damage. > > > > > > > > > > * Any non-standard build (IE a decapper with rocket boots) sacrifices either damage or survivability in a fight for that mobility. A common replacement in builds is elixir U for extra damage output, but costs a reduction in survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is part of engineer's design -- having the right tools for the job. The class (at least in theory) is supposed to have a lot of variation. But there's always an opportunity cost. Now if only they could add some of that variation to core or scrapper... Grumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can learn the tells for what the holo's build is based on the different utilities they're using. See lightning flying out from them, a photon wall, or something similar? They're on static protection and vulnerable to condis. See an elixir gun and a thumper turret (or turret shield)? They're on conversion holo and vulnerable to power. Or just learn the cooldowns. There are long periods where holos are more vulnerable than usual because they have long cooldowns on skills like hard light arena. Wait for that stuff to run out, or purposely try to trigger it and then run away, so they're more vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I just want to point out a few things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Good spellbreakers tend to win fights against holos, provided they know how to rotate properly and engage/disengage as needed. Also... rampage. Ugh. > > > > > > > > > > * Reaper can do just fine against holo if they use their CC's right. Most holo builds are very susceptible to corruption and CC chaining. > > > > > > > > > > * Core guardian builds are not bruisers right now. They are spike builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A reaper will just get CC chained to death by a Holo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And a reaper can CC chain a holo to death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the reaper CC chain that's killing your Holo? > > > > > > > > > > > > Depends on what weapon sets they're using, but if they catch me while I'm on cooldown, they usually pull with greatsword, hit with the executioner's scythe, spin2win, fear with Reaper #3, use "Chilled to the bone!", and follow it up with a daze from warhorn or fear from staff. > > > > > > > > > > > > All told, that's 5 CCs in a row from a relatively "meta" build. Holo only has 4, and they're not quite as chainable as that. > > > > > > > > > > So you're saying ..you lose to a reaper when caught off guard and with everything on CD...this is the definition of strawman > > > > > > > > No, I'm saying I lose to a reaper when they get their timing right. Say I stunbreak right as they're casting the next CC -- I might as well have not had the stunbreak in that case. In cases like that, it really just becomes a 50/50. If I sneak up on the reaper, they're likely to lose. If they sneak up on me, I'm likely to lose. > > > > > > how is that possible? a holo has with corona burst 66 % uptime on stability. every 6 seconds recast. the cc chain of holo is rifle 4 (14 sec cd), forged form 5 15 sec cd, elite that skills have also MORE range on cc AND way lower cds than reaper. so a holo can way better chain cc permanently than reaper that have RS 5 (30 sec cd), rs 3 (25 sec cd), chilll to the bones (90 sec cd). also GS 5 has 25 sec cd. > > > > > > if you compare holo and reaper > > > > > > Photon forge(PF) 2 600 range leap 2 sec cd > > > RS 2 600 range leap 6 sec cd > > > > > > PF 3 stability on 6 sec cd > > > RS3 stability on 25 sec cd > > > > > > PF 5 5 enemies stunned in 600 range radius 15 sec cd > > > RS 5 1 enemy stunned in 240 range on 30 sec cd > > > > > > holo is like reaper with 1/3 the cds and WAY more stability AND mobility AND Sustain. > > > and since everyone in this game is saying reaper is FINE. holosmith (that is obvious 3 times better) is simply OP. > > > > > > > I love it! Based on what you've said, Holosmith spends all fight every fight in Photon Forge, never leaving. How else would we keep permanent 66% uptime on stability, just staying in good old Photon Forge which has no counter mechanism right? > > > > Can we fly too? > > > > Seriously though, you can compare classes, but Holo and Reaper fill two different roles. I don't see a reaper on my team and think "Crap I need to switch or we'll be disadvantaged, because I'm worth three of these reapers!" You can compare them, but it's apples to oranges. > > > > I'm just about done with this thread though. Clearly, it's popular with gold-tier players to just say "Holo has it all, always." Without taking time to understand the spec, its counterbalance and exactly what makes it strong right now. > > > > Last time I'll say it: Yes, it's overperforming a bit right now, but every Holo build in the meta has a counter, which means it's not crazy OP. Holo needs a few shaves, but only if a few other specs get shaved as well. > > > > /Done. Good luck all. > > ahahahahahhaaaa xD, yes if you leave forged form you can just use Elixier s until you can enter it the next time, or your Shield block (both also negate stunn effects), or your invis, or your 50% dmg reduction + perma every boon (including protection so that you with all effects stacked just got 20% dmg of the initial hit). common. holo has already Sustain like a warrior, and thats more than enough to re enter forged form. so you are never in danger of stunns. Take a ride aboard the hyperbole train! Wooo wooooooooo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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