On elitism and stuff...

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> My two coppers' worth:

>

> I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

>

> The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. There is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

>

> EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

 

Yes, i think the point we are trying to drive home is the kitten-whale extremist who pulls out ARK dps to kick you if you are 1k too low.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> My two coppers' worth:

>

> I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

>

> The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. There is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

>

> EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

 

Except elitists don't treat you like spam if you're honest with them. They will ask you to leave from their groups and will try to tolerate you in map events, but they will not start off lobbing insults in your direction if they know where you're coming from. What sets players off is when the Aurc Basic map meta is about to begin and someone starts requesting help on Balthazar HP. And the problem isn't even that the person wants to do Balthazar HP, but that the map is full; people can't join and are at risk of sitting out the event while this person is taking a slot for something trivial. It's the apparent disinterest in other player's situation that annoys the majority of players.

 

And as @"Etheri.5406" states, these players join and lie to the players already present in the group; they end up wasting everyone's time and that is where the insults start flying. Furthermore insults only fly when they can be bothered to correct you, if they can't be bothered they will just kick you. And in case of special demands, not saying anything is the same as lying. When you understand this simple fact and are outright honest with the players in the groups, in the maps, etc. ahead of time, they will respond accordingly and you will find that they remain courteous with you throughout the exchange.

 

You can even test this for yourself, if you start an LFG "I am new" for whatever content you decide to do. You wait a little, players join; you do as your told and viola you get your dailies done, you get good loot and you don't have to die in the process. Even if you die, you will find that these players are a lot more patient with you than they normally are. And all this is simply because you're honest with them.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> I think the issue about raid or fractal elitism is that you get forced to play in a way you don't enjoy to play. I don't mean that you'll have to take another elite skill or change one trait for a specific boss, I mean that if you don't play a very specific build (or even a specific class!) you are not considered worth inviting to the raid.

 

You are free to do whatever you want, as they are free to decide not to play with you. It's a team effort and everyone in there is making sacrifices one way or the other. And if you have a genius new plan that you would like to try you could offer it to them ahead of time. Then they can decide "this may work" or "we can't be bothered" and you can act accordingly. Notice that the key thing here is communicating ahead of time rather than making players find out about your intentions as time goes on.

 

 

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

This thread has many quite long posts and seems to have touched different subjects on the way. It is now difficult to stick to one point or the other. I will therefore remain very global.

The game offers a big variety of activities, each of them allowing for different approaches, and all that allowing for all types of players to enjoy the game. Thanks to this variety, elitists can get their fun too - for example via raids - and I believe it is good.

 

Globally, I think that each of us needs to have a clear understanding of what are the activities and how they work. From there, we can then chose the ones suiting us best, and go get fun at those, while ignoring the others.

For example, me, I like WvW and raids. Those two activities need an organized team (some for healing, some for power, some for condition, and so on). This also needs strategy. And all that does not work on first try of course. It needs to learn. It includes the use of specific builds, so that individual performances match together for a global powerful team result. This makes it very interesting but quite hard and it needs a good team mind. As said, a different type of fun. I truly believe that to learn and do this with good conditions, the best way to go is to be in a guild. We then play with friends and that's a lot more comfortable, especially for slow learner like me! :3

 

Now if out of a guild: I agree that the LFG tool is not perfect, but it is improving. Nowadays, most party offers have a clear description of what is expected and we can easily see if a party is good for us or not. I believe that it allows for a good flexibility as long as we respect and accept that we don't match everywhere due to all the different ways to play.

 

And last, regarding ArcDPS: I find the tool very useful for own improvement. It is an enormous help (side note: When it works), for me to learn applying my skill rotation properly in raids and wvw. I look only at data from experienced people playing same class than me, so that I see when they cast and if I achieve to match their level of damages. If not, I then try to understand why I am below. But that's me. At least within the guild I am in, we never use the tool to disqualify others. Fact is that a tool is as good as what users do of it. ArcDPS or else, there will always be people using it for unfair purposes. It would not be different with another tool.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> > My two coppers' worth:

> >

> > I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

> >

> > The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. There is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

> >

> > EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

>

> Except elitists don't treat you like spam if you're honest with them. They will ask you to leave from their groups and will try to tolerate you in map events, but they will not start off lobbing insults in your direction if they know where you're coming from. What sets players off is when the Aurc Basic map meta is about to begin and someone starts requesting help on Balthazar HP. And the problem isn't even that the person wants to do Balthazar HP, but that the map is full; people can't join and are at risk of sitting out the event while this person is taking a slot for something trivial. It's the apparent disinterest in other player's situation that annoys the majority of players.

>

> And as @"Etheri.5406" states, these players join and lie to the players already present in the group; they end up wasting everyone's time and that is where the insults start flying. Furthermore insults only fly when they can be bothered to correct you, if they can't be bothered they will just kick you. And in case of special demands, not saying anything is the same as lying. When you understand this simple fact and are outright honest with the players in the groups, in the maps, etc. ahead of time, they will respond accordingly and you will find that they remain courteous with you throughout the exchange.

>

> You can even test this for yourself, if you start an LFG "I am new" for whatever content you decide to do. You wait a little, players join; you do as your told and viola you get your dailies done, you get good loot and you don't have to die in the process. Even if you die, you will find that these players are a lot more patient with you than they normally are. And all this is simply because you're honest with them.

 

Exactly this. Everyone crying it's impossible to find groups yet... it's honestly not difficult. I'm yet to see A SINGLE TRAINING RAID that doesn't have experienced players there helping. Half the LFG "training raids" have several players with hundreds of LI helping out. Half the training discords are literally experienced raiders teaching players without even getting loot.

I started clearing on my alt mostly with pugs; and the ONLY boss I can't clear without KP / LI is dhuum. Everything else is perfectly doable. Worst case I make my own group and kick the players who don't perform. Yes, it takes longer but that's NORMAL in groups with limited experience. That's what EVERYONE who was low LI at some point went through.

 

"but i can't do effort, elitists are hardcore and should do all the effort for me, otherwise they're toxic!!!"

The real toxic players are the overdemanding casuals and special snowflakes.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> I had a group recently where i was doing the same dps as the Core power banner warrior. He had 7% increase from fractal god title. Is this an isolated occurance when >someone is crying about you doing the same dps and they have a 7% base increase+ 2-3k from smoother play due to experience? If you people split hairs for ridiculous > >kitten like this you can't claim to be any less extreme than some newbie whining 'please carry me im entitled to your time'

 

How do you know you had the same DPS? I thought you dont use arcdps.

 

>I fully support fake kp/ buy title if you are reasonable skilled, as in, you dont die, you play your role to lets say 80 % of what your whale friends would do.

 

If you are reasonably skilled you dont need to buy a title.

 

[Rasta.2371]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > I had a group recently where i was doing the same dps as the Core power banner warrior. He had 7% increase from fractal god title. Is this an isolated occurance when >someone is crying about you doing the same dps and they have a 7% base increase+ 2-3k from smoother play due to experience? If you people split hairs for ridiculous > >kitten like this you can't claim to be any less extreme than some newbie whining 'please carry me im entitled to your time'

>

> How do you know you had the same DPS? I thought you dont use arcdps.

>

> >I fully support fake kp/ buy title if you are reasonable skilled, as in, you dont die, you play your role to lets say 80 % of what your whale friends would do.

>

> If you are reasonably skilled you dont need to buy a title.

>

 

I dont use it but the one person in hte group did and specifically told me the dps several times so i will go by those numbers. I agree that the title is easy if you know what you are doing. splititng hairs over 4k dps though is completely ludicrous. Are people going to start kicking because you dont have fractal god title, in a 40+ kp pug? there is problems on both sides of the isle, from the scrubs crying ' im entitled to your time i want you to carry me' and the kittenpoops crying ' im better than every single one of you noobs because my arkdps says 4k dps more (when you are at 30k already) so im gonna kick and only fractal god title allowed!'

 

[Rasta.2371]

I fully support chatlinking KP in pugs. Pugs is a good place to learn new classes too. If people are salty about it just mute them.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> I dont use it but the one person in hte group did and specifically told me the dps several times so i will go by those numbers. I agree that the title is easy if you know what you are doing. splititng hairs over 4k dps though is completely ludicrous. Are people going to start kicking because you dont have fractal god title, in a 40+ kp pug? there is problems on both sides of the isle, from the scrubs crying ' im entitled to your time i want you to carry me' and the kittenpoops crying ' im better than every single one of you noobs because my arkdps says 4k dps more (when you are at 30k already) so im gonna kick and only fractal god title allowed!'

>

 

4k DPS is a lot though.

It might not matter that much if one person deals 4k less DPS.

Now imagine everyone doing this.

 

Take Desmina for example. A group with ~160k DPS will kill her in about 3:40 mins.

A group where everyone deals 4k less DPS has a group DPS of 120k and needs almost 5 minutes to kill her.

 

Now imagine that on every boss.

Bosses with phases are even worse because you will not only kill the boss slower, you will also need longer for the phases.

But yeah, lets not "split hairs over only 4k" less DPS.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > I dont use it but the one person in hte group did and specifically told me the dps several times so i will go by those numbers. I agree that the title is easy if you know what you are doing. splititng hairs over 4k dps though is completely ludicrous. Are people going to start kicking because you dont have fractal god title, in a 40+ kp pug? there is problems on both sides of the isle, from the scrubs crying ' im entitled to your time i want you to carry me' and the kittenpoops crying ' im better than every single one of you noobs because my arkdps says 4k dps more (when you are at 30k already) so im gonna kick and only fractal god title allowed!'

> >

>

> 4k DPS is a lot though.

> It might not matter that much if one person deals 4k less DPS.

> Now imagine everyone doing this.

>

> Take Desmina for example. A group with ~160k DPS will kill her in about 3:40 mins.

> A group where everyone deals 4k less DPS has a group DPS of 120k and needs almost 5 minutes to kill her.

>

> Now imagine that on every boss.

> Bosses with phases are even worse because you will not only kill the boss slower, you will also need longer for the phases.

> But yeah, lets not "split hairs over only 4k" less DPS.

 

The first time I did Desmina i joined a pug with kp 9000 plus etc etc. I hit most of my rotations, died once or twice to walls but then no more, but then after that i was ok. Really not hard. So yes you would take longer., however i do think it is still splitting hairs, even if it was 6 minutes. to kill her, and yes mechanics have a higher chance to wipe you the longer you take.

 

The reason i think it's still splitting hairs is threefold.

1 no matter how much KP/ over 9000 elitism crap you want it is still a pug. Want world record times? join a guild.

2 most pugs that clear a raid in one shot are happy and successful.

3 So my post with the numbers was concerning a fractal, I agree that raids are a bit different and you should be more prepared, take way more time to prepare for etc. My point was that even cm 100 fractal are still on the casual side of things. Also is it going to be 4k dps lower every time? you wont improve in the fight if you are generally good at the game?

[Jski.6180]

Sadly that where raiding pve goes in time. If you have a set number of players allowed into content at a set time your going to try to maximize each players out put. This is how real life works but a lot more open because there not always a hard cap of numbers.

 

You did see this in wvw and spvp to some level but when the game first came out there was a more gen. for all the classes in the game. It was HoT and raids that brought the real elitism with classes that where made for dmg only or classes made for support only with content that is very locked into numbers of players. PoF only added in more paths for each class to run as but there still the "best i use" class.

 

Its not going away and its only going to get worst. The "play a different class" argument is starting to set in. The very highest point of elitism for mmorpgs where ppl stop chairing about balancing from the devs. and only want ppl to simply play the FotM broken class though having alts hero.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> My two coppers' worth:

>

> I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

>

> The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. There is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

>

> EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

 

Well I like your kittens. And the rest of your post.

 

 

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

 

Fixing the boss blitz design would involve a few things

1) Adding a health bar for all bosses, to help people coordinate.

2) Adding a Boss Power Up indicator for all bosses, which basically reflects scaling, so smart people can spread out without using mapchat, and dumb people can be reminded that they're just making life harder by zerging.

3) Downscaling the trash mobs so people can actually head out toward the boss without being in a group. Once a few people go, others will go and join them, but no one wants to be the first to head out and get ganked by 10 vets. Right now, it either requires 6 tags, or a much larger number of people who know the mechanics and can self-organize. Making it easier for people to get started means you only need a handful of people with some initiative.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"reaVer.4056" said:

>

> Except elitists don't treat you like spam if you're honest with them. They will ask you to leave from their groups and will try to tolerate you in map events, but they will not start off lobbing insults in your direction if they know where you're coming from. What sets players off is when the Aurc Basic map meta is about to begin and someone starts requesting help on Balthazar HP. And the problem isn't even that the person wants to do Balthazar HP, but that the map is full; people can't join and are at risk of sitting out the event while this person is taking a slot for something trivial. It's the apparent disinterest in other player's situation that annoys the majority of players.

>

> And as @"Etheri.5406" states, these players join and lie to the players already present in the group; they end up wasting everyone's time and that is where the insults start flying. Furthermore insults only fly when they can be bothered to correct you, if they can't be bothered they will just kick you. And in case of special demands, not saying anything is the same as lying. When you understand this simple fact and are outright honest with the players in the groups, in the maps, etc. ahead of time, they will respond accordingly and you will find that they remain courteous with you throughout the exchange.

>

> You can even test this for yourself, if you start an LFG "I am new" for whatever content you decide to do. You wait a little, players join; you do as your told and viola you get your dailies done, you get good loot and you don't have to die in the process. Even if you die, you will find that these players are a lot more patient with you than they normally are. And all this is simply because you're honest with them.

 

It's sad that this type of behavior is an ideal rather than the reality. In the reality, what's so is that there are a lot of selfish players on both sides of the "elitism" divide. For every elite player who is a basically decent human being who happens to be good at the game, there is some unknown number of meta wannabes who throw around meta jargon and wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone if doing so was not also self-serving. The reverse is also true. There are certainly players who will not seek to foist themselves on others in instanced content if they don't provide what the group wants. For every one of those, there is some unknown number of players who feel entitled to complete such content and don't care who they inconvenience as a result.

 

/cynicism off

 

So, thanks for setting that as a goal for the community to strive for. I appreciate it.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> >

> > Except elitists don't treat you like spam if you're honest with them. They will ask you to leave from their groups and will try to tolerate you in map events, but they will not start off lobbing insults in your direction if they know where you're coming from. What sets players off is when the Aurc Basic map meta is about to begin and someone starts requesting help on Balthazar HP. And the problem isn't even that the person wants to do Balthazar HP, but that the map is full; people can't join and are at risk of sitting out the event while this person is taking a slot for something trivial. It's the apparent disinterest in other player's situation that annoys the majority of players.

> >

> > And as @"Etheri.5406" states, these players join and lie to the players already present in the group; they end up wasting everyone's time and that is where the insults start flying. Furthermore insults only fly when they can be bothered to correct you, if they can't be bothered they will just kick you. And in case of special demands, not saying anything is the same as lying. When you understand this simple fact and are outright honest with the players in the groups, in the maps, etc. ahead of time, they will respond accordingly and you will find that they remain courteous with you throughout the exchange.

> >

> > You can even test this for yourself, if you start an LFG "I am new" for whatever content you decide to do. You wait a little, players join; you do as your told and viola you get your dailies done, you get good loot and you don't have to die in the process. Even if you die, you will find that these players are a lot more patient with you than they normally are. And all this is simply because you're honest with them.

>

> It's sad that this type of behavior is an ideal rather than the reality. In the reality, what's so is that there are a lot of selfish players on both sides of the "elitism" divide. For every elite player who is a basically decent human being who happens to be good at the game, there is some unknown number of meta wannabes who throw around meta jargon and wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone if doing so was not also self-serving. The reverse is also true. There are certainly players who will not seek to foist themselves on others in instanced content if they don't provide what the group wants. For every one of those, there is some unknown number of players who feel entitled to complete such content and don't care who they inconvenience as a result.

>

> /cynicism off

>

> So, thanks for setting that as a goal for the community to strive for. I appreciate it.

 

When I ran in pugs or commanded them I would politely kick the clueless newbie players, msg them better luck next time etc etc. Not much you can do at some point other than kick if a player is really bad but it happens. There is no need to descend into salty elitism about it, we are better than that, and should strive for more.

[lokh.2695]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

 

> Take Desmina for example. A group with ~160k DPS will kill her in about 3:40 mins.

> A group where everyone deals 4k less DPS has a group DPS of 120k and needs almost 5 minutes to kill her.

 

It's that minuscule difference of 1min 20s in a kill that I don't care about and the community shouldn't either outside of the very very few who are going for records and speedclears, i.e. ppl who will never play with pugs anyway. Also, if your group waits longer than 1min 20s to fill up, you will still lose time on a group that deals the 120k dps.

But of course it's a slippery slope, after all, it's safe to assume that a group set out to raid is out for the kill and wants to down the boss eventually and there's a minimum amount of DPs required to do so.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

> > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

>

> > Take Desmina for example. A group with ~160k DPS will kill her in about 3:40 mins.

> > A group where everyone deals 4k less DPS has a group DPS of 120k and needs almost 5 minutes to kill her.

>

> It's that minuscule difference of 1min 20s in a kill that I don't care about and the community shouldn't either outside of the very very few who are going for records and speedclears, i.e. ppl who will never play with pugs anyway. Also, if your group waits longer than 1min 20s to fill up, you will still lose time on a group that deals the 120k dps.

> But of course it's a slippery slope, after all, it's safe to assume that a group set out to raid is out for the kill and wants to down the boss eventually and there's a minimum amount of DPs required to do so.

 

If you constantly die, your play doesn't improve and you screw up mechanics in a 'LFG over 9000 kp' and you chat coded I get their point.

If you are within 95% of their gear (let's say all exotic viper ring and all ascended armor) and your dps and your play improves, getting salty and starting to kick people, becoming more elitist in pugs is a very bad precedent to set.

[Zedek.8932]

I find myself stuck in fights with elitist players a lot. Might it be the regular "You are just Gold doood" in LoL, or the recent "damage parsers create toxicity" on the FF14 boards, or maybe even here.

 

I've shared my personal story about unneeded elitism (in short: Pressed a different button than meta and that took us like 30 seconds longer - Brayflox Hardmode, early 2015, me as a Lalafell Blackmage) and that still shattered my view on these players probably forever. @"Vayne.8563" was telling me that in their guild, they laugh about their fails or something a long the line (I think I can vaguely remember that but I could be wrong too) and that is the real way to go. When I watch Let's Play, I also like it when they don't get everything done on the first try, when they die in Tomb Raider II over and over until they figure it out, but the actual feel of success and progress is nice. Elitism just wants you to be best in slot, no variation, no mistakes and, dear god, do not chat or laugh. **_It'z zeriouz businezz._**

 

The latest guy I got involved into a fight was saying that he wants DPS meters to "find the guy that does not pull his weight". Yeah. I digged a bit further and suddenly he came up with an über-ridiculous thing, something like "I want to push my gameplay to the mathematical limits" or something. So this guy is not using the DPS meter for himself, he is logging other people's damage. He also mentioned that "someone may perform sub-par". But who defines that? The guy that "pushes his gameplay to the mathematical limits?" Let's get it straight:

 

It's a computer game. We are all here to achieve a goal. But there is no need to spit poison over someone's video game performance, a leisure time activity, especially when fuelled by guys that also bring the understanding and mechanical cappabilities. I don't want the nice, but clumsy guy to be locked out from fun just because he messes up here and there and gets downed. That is ridiculous and somewhat terrible, and there is literally no team spirit or group connection. Just screen names anymore.

 

**And that has to stop. We are playing online TOGETHER. Not zealously logging other people's numbers in a computer game.**

 

Excelsior

 

 

[Edelweiss.4261]

I find it exceedingly rare to find casuals that want everything to be easy. I've seen a handful, myself. This feels more like a misrepresentation of more commonly held views, but maybe I'm just lucky enough to avoid these people.

 

For my part, I don't really want easy raids. Rather, raids are just completely uninteresting to me. The elitism that bothers me occurs when a lot of raiders talk about Open World PVE. They talk about it as if you can simply autoattack and mow through everything. If you're in a giant zerg, maybe you can get by, but, normally, this will either get you killed or take minutes to deal with trash mobs. Raiding doesn't necessarily make you better than other members of the game and, certainly, doesn't make you any more important.

 

I also want an alternative pathway to legendary gear. I don't need any legendary skin, but locking a quality of life feature behind a specific game mode caters to the elitist mindset that raiders are more important than OW PVE. Luckily, PvP and WvW players have been granted alternative pathways. I've seen people say something to the effect of "all 3 game modes have pathways", but this ignores that OW PVE and raiding are as different as PvP and WvW. If Anet gave a pathway to PvP but not WvW, I'm fairly certain WvW players would be miffed. You'd then see people that said "sPvP is the endgame of WvW" while implying that pvpers are better than wvwers. This mindset is ridiculous.

 

Additionally, it is somewhat annoying that OW PVE is balanced based on raids, but the balance team is small, so whatever.

[Imperadordf.2687]

@"Zedek.8932" Or that guy just wants a smooth and quick run without any frustrations, so he wants better people. Sounds good to me. **If he did that on a training group / low requirement group I'd be perfectly fine with what you said.**

 

I am not obligated to do my best to carry a bad player if he/she joined a squad with high requirements.

 

 

Edit : Before you guys mark me as a toxic elitist, I am an officer in a Raiding guild and we do weekly trainings for new players, we recruit people to train them, I take people in my squad if they message me that they can pull their weight, and I politely ask people to leave if they are falling behind.

[ROMANG.1903]

> @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > I think the issue about raid or fractal elitism is that you get forced to play in a way you don't enjoy to play. I don't mean that you'll have to take another elite skill or change one trait for a specific boss, I mean that if you don't play a very specific build (or even a specific class!) you are not considered worth inviting to the raid.

>

> You are free to do whatever you want, as they are free to decide not to play with you. It's a team effort and everyone in there is making sacrifices one way or the other. And if you have a genius new plan that you would like to try you could offer it to them ahead of time. Then they can decide "this may work" or "we can't be bothered" and you can act accordingly. Notice that the key thing here is communicating ahead of time rather than making players find out about your intentions as time goes on.

>

 

Of course they are free to ask for whatever they want. They are not the problem. The problem is on class balancing. Every class should have several viable DPS options. And every class should have **at least** one viable support option, may it be by healing, boon sharing, utility, or even something I may not imagine right now.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > > I think the issue about raid or fractal elitism is that you get forced to play in a way you don't enjoy to play. I don't mean that you'll have to take another elite skill or change one trait for a specific boss, I mean that if you don't play a very specific build (or even a specific class!) you are not considered worth inviting to the raid.

> >

> > You are free to do whatever you want, as they are free to decide not to play with you. It's a team effort and everyone in there is making sacrifices one way or the other. And if you have a genius new plan that you would like to try you could offer it to them ahead of time. Then they can decide "this may work" or "we can't be bothered" and you can act accordingly. Notice that the key thing here is communicating ahead of time rather than making players find out about your intentions as time goes on.

> >

>

> Of course they are free to ask for whatever they want. They are not the problem. The problem is on class balancing. Every class should have several viable DPS options. And every class should have **at least** one viable support option, may it be by healing, boon sharing, utility, or even something I may not imagine right now.

 

If you did that, it wouldn't be an RPG anymore. Being able to swap builds on a whim already flies in the face of the principles of RPGs to begin with, removing the uniqueness of each class would only aggravate that principle even more.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> I find myself stuck in fights with elitist players a lot. Might it be the regular "You are just Gold doood" in LoL, or the recent "damage parsers create toxicity" on the FF14 boards, or maybe even here.

>

> I've shared my personal story about unneeded elitism (in short: Pressed a different button than meta and that took us like 30 seconds longer - Brayflox Hardmode, early 2015, me as a Lalafell Blackmage) and that still shattered my view on these players probably forever. @"Vayne.8563" was telling me that in their guild, they laugh about their fails or something a long the line (I think I can vaguely remember that but I could be wrong too) and that is the real way to go. When I watch Let's Play, I also like it when they don't get everything done on the first try, when they die in Tomb Raider II over and over until they figure it out, but the actual feel of success and progress is nice. Elitism just wants you to be best in slot, no variation, no mistakes and, dear god, do not chat or laugh. **_It'z zeriouz businezz._**

>

> The latest guy I got involved into a fight was saying that he wants DPS meters to "find the guy that does not pull his weight". Yeah. I digged a bit further and suddenly he came up with an über-ridiculous thing, something like "I want to push my gameplay to the mathematical limits" or something. So this guy is not using the DPS meter for himself, he is logging other people's damage. He also mentioned that "someone may perform sub-par". But who defines that? The guy that "pushes his gameplay to the mathematical limits?" Let's get it straight:

>

> It's a computer game. We are all here to achieve a goal. But there is no need to spit poison over someone's video game performance, a leisure time activity, especially when fuelled by guys that also bring the understanding and mechanical cappabilities. I don't want the nice, but clumsy guy to be locked out from fun just because he messes up here and there and gets downed. That is ridiculous and somewhat terrible, and there is literally no team spirit or group connection. Just screen names anymore.

>

> **And that has to stop. We are playing online TOGETHER. Not zealously logging other people's numbers in a computer game.**

>

> Excelsior

>

>

 

And I'll swing that right back at you: you are playing **TOGETHER**, by virtue that implies you need to put up with other players and they need to put up with you. So why does a portion of the playerbase have to be so completely insufferable with the excuses of "it's just a game" "this is nothing" blablabla? Why do regulars have to be stuck at content for 30 minutes that they can clear in 5, just because 1 or 2 players come in under false pretenses and fail the content?

 

If you and your guild are trying something new, be it a new boss or new methods of fighting an existing boss, I'm sure everyone within the squad is in the understanding that they are trying new things. That already triggers a different response for players, they all know they are putting in an investment time-wise and perhaps even gold-wise. But this is completely different from people who are running the content daily or even hourly and are expecting to get their usual results. That isn't even serious business, that is just standard expectations.

 

So the DPS meter thing... that is why its showing squad mates yes. So that you can see what your team is doing and whether someone is going to cause the raid to fail. That is quite literally one of their purposes. And what is so ridiculous about "I want to push my gameplay to the mathematical limits"? He's trying to get the most optimal result possible, which should be **normal**.

 

And yes, it's a computer **game**, that implies playing said **game** and not loitering around. You can play fashion wars in town, you don't need a raid for that. And if you don't want to do anything pertaining to the **game** then maybe go to a bar instead of a raid? I mean, there's several in Lion's Arch, but there's a good chance you will get more out of a trip to a bar IRL. And before you try to turn that back at me, I tend to find bars quite boring most of the time, hence I'm playing **games**.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Edelweiss.4261" said:

> I also want an alternative pathway to legendary gear. I don't need any legendary skin, but locking a quality of life feature behind a specific game mode caters to the elitist mindset that raiders are more important than OW PVE. Luckily, PvP and WvW players have been granted alternative pathways. I've seen people say something to the effect of "all 3 game modes have pathways", but this ignores that OW PVE and raiding are as different as PvP and WvW. If Anet gave a pathway to PvP but not WvW, I'm fairly certain WvW players would be miffed. You'd then see people that said "sPvP is the endgame of WvW" while implying that pvpers are better than wvwers. This mindset is ridiculous.

Honestly, locking legendary armor behind raids for ~reasons~ is probably the single biggest cause of this whole mess. If it was crafted the same way the weapons are crafted, a lot of people would have been content to ignore raids entirely and leave the people who actually wanted to raid alone to do their thing.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Edelweiss.4261" said:

> > I also want an alternative pathway to legendary gear. I don't need any legendary skin, but locking a quality of life feature behind a specific game mode caters to the elitist mindset that raiders are more important than OW PVE. Luckily, PvP and WvW players have been granted alternative pathways. I've seen people say something to the effect of "all 3 game modes have pathways", but this ignores that OW PVE and raiding are as different as PvP and WvW. If Anet gave a pathway to PvP but not WvW, I'm fairly certain WvW players would be miffed. You'd then see people that said "sPvP is the endgame of WvW" while implying that pvpers are better than wvwers. This mindset is ridiculous.

> Honestly, locking legendary armor behind raids for ~reasons~ is probably the single biggest cause of this whole mess. If it was crafted the same way the weapons are crafted, a lot of people would have been content to ignore raids entirely and leave the people who actually wanted to raid alone to do their thing.

 

They needed a bait to inflate raid participation values for board meetings.