RECOMMENDATIONS for raid - Truth about raid toxicity (For new raiders)

[zealex.9410]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

>

> Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

 

First of all the onoy toxicity i see here is from you. Second if yiu cab absolutely pull your weight u cab raid with exotic. That requires that you know the fight really well and your class.

 

I spam aa wont cut it.

[Fenom.9457]

Raids are toxic

[Soulbrew.7165]

Yeah, raids are indeed toxic.

[polvere.2805]

The only toxic people i see in raids are those who want to play them and don't respect the rules of the raiding community.

Go back to your battle royales if you don't want to deal with people and their rules, evey time a community is formed rules are formed

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

> >

> > It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

> >

> > Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

>

> this is why easier mode raids are win, less demanding, more relaxed and a pathway to the more demanding stuff for those that care.

 

Except they aren't and those who care already play the more demanding stuff.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

> >

> > It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

> >

> > Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

>

> this is why easier mode raids are win, less demanding, more relaxed and a pathway to the more demanding stuff for those that care.

 

Because fracturing the already small community is a good idea. Not.

 

Easy Mode raids bring nothing to the table which is worthwile:

 

- they do not ease the entry gap which is already Insgnificantly low for some wings (Escort, w4)

- they require a lot of extra developement ressources for a game mode which is already barely on life support

- they do not in any way make the game mode more appealing or accessible if reward are reduced and encounters are downscaled

- raids already suffer lack of longterm rewards or incentives for people who are not into raiding. Adding an extra step will not help anyone. Better to consider alternative approaches to certain rewards

 

Easy Mode raids are not going to happen, and pray to god they don't because it would destroy the already insignificant raiding community in this game. For any one interested in raiding, there are more than sufficient resources and opportunities available. For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of acquisition without destroying the niche game mode

[Eramonster.2718]

> For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of aquisition without destroying the niche game mode.

Thread carefully on this tho, it plays great role in killing the core's dungeons :anguished:. Raid have a similar role, a 10man dungeon.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of aquisition without destroying the niche game mode.

> Thread carefully on this tho, it plays great role in killing the core's dungeons :anguished:. Raid have a similar role, a 10man dungeon.

 

Assuming the skins were obtainable elsewhere, if no one plays raid because of this, were raids a good game mode to begin with? PvP has god awful rewards for the long term players and yet these are precisely the folks that still play it.

 

Likewise, PvP is a showcase of how much of a failure it is to add rewards as a lure to players who would normally not play the game mode. Population still low and everyone gets pissed (seems familiar if you play with pugs often...)

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

> > >

> > > It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

> > >

> > > Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

> >

> > this is why easier mode raids are win, less demanding, more relaxed and a pathway to the more demanding stuff for those that care.

>

> Because fracturing the already small community is a good idea. Not.

>

> Easy Mode raids bring nothing to the table which is worthwile:

>

> - they do not ease the entry gap which is already Insgnificantly low for some wings (Escort, w4)

> - they require a lot of extra developement ressources for a game mode which is already barely on life support

> - they do not in any way make the game mode more appealing or accessible if reward are reduced and encounters are downscaled

> - raids already suffer lack of longterm rewards or incentives for people who are not into raiding. Adding an extra step will not help anyone. Better to consider alternative approaches to certain rewards

>

> Easy Mode raids are not going to happen, and pray to god they don't because it would destroy the already insignificant raiding community in this game. For any one interested in raiding, there are more than sufficient resources and opportunities available. For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of acquisition without destroying the niche game mode

 

Fracturing a dying cost heavy niche to open it the the masses is a good thing (and its only going to fracture if normal raids prove more attractive to existing raiders, which only validate further its value). Ofc easy mode eases the gap, learning fight mechanics is the biggest part of raiding. Re investment, that's because the audience is niche. People do not avoid raids because the rewards are not shiny enough, they avoid them because of the gameplay and training required.

 

Easy mode raids has been proven in many AAA mmorpg, it works and is vastly more popular.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of aquisition without destroying the niche game mode.

> > Thread carefully on this tho, it plays great role in killing the core's dungeons :anguished:. Raid have a similar role, a 10man dungeon.

>

> Assuming the skins were obtainable elsewhere, if no one plays raid because of this, were raids a good game mode to begin with? PvP has god awful rewards for the long term players and yet these are precisely the folks that still play it.

 

It's different. PvP has an inherent appeal because of what it is - competition with other players. Raids are cooperative, this element is never present. Ultimately in PvE it's all about reward/effort ratio or exclusive rewards when it comes to replaying content over and over again. Compare personal story instances with any other (even the abandoned dungeons). Virtually nobody is replaying story instances excessively. It's because they offer neither efficient, nor exclusive rewards. You've seen the content, there's no reason to replay it. It doesn't mean the content is bad, it was just not intended to be highly replayable. Dungeons, fractals and raids, however, are.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

> > > >

> > > > It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

> > > >

> > > > Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

> > >

> > > this is why easier mode raids are win, less demanding, more relaxed and a pathway to the more demanding stuff for those that care.

> >

> > Because fracturing the already small community is a good idea. Not.

> >

> > Easy Mode raids bring nothing to the table which is worthwile:

> >

> > - they do not ease the entry gap which is already Insgnificantly low for some wings (Escort, w4)

> > - they require a lot of extra developement ressources for a game mode which is already barely on life support

> > - they do not in any way make the game mode more appealing or accessible if reward are reduced and encounters are downscaled

> > - raids already suffer lack of longterm rewards or incentives for people who are not into raiding. Adding an extra step will not help anyone. Better to consider alternative approaches to certain rewards

> >

> > Easy Mode raids are not going to happen, and pray to god they don't because it would destroy the already insignificant raiding community in this game. For any one interested in raiding, there are more than sufficient resources and opportunities available. For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of acquisition without destroying the niche game mode

>

> Fracturing a dying cost heavy niche to open it the the masses is a good thing (and its only going to fracture if normal raids prove more attractive to existing raiders, which only validate further its value). Ofc easy mode eases the gap, learning fight mechanics is the biggest part of raiding. Re investment, that's because the audience is niche. People do not avoid raids because the rewards are not shiny enough, they avoid them because of the gameplay and training required.

>

> Easy mode raids has been proven in many AAA mmorpg, it works and is vastly more popular.

 

Cost heavy? Please explain, the last information on this subject was and always has been that the fractal and raid team are quite small and perform quite well for the teams size. Unless shown otherwise, I have to disagree with this claim.

 

The biggest difficulty about raids is the organization. This has been covered multiple times. The skill gap and requirements to actually succeed in raids is very low. This has not changed no matter how often people like to bring this up. On the contrary, with the amount of constant power creep seeping into the game raids have continued to become easier as time passes. Once again proving that actual performance requirements are NOT a major limiting factor for players. Better grouping options and a revised LFG would be far more helpful than wasting resources on an easy mode. Again, I have to disagree on this point.

 

Go ask the spvp community how they felt about the influx of pve players who joined simply to lose their way to free ascended armor in season 5. The game mode as a whole suffered and after the rewards were adapted, spvp as a whole was deader than before since actual spvp players quit in the process. Raiding requires coordination and devotions to a certain approach to conquering a specific type of content. Having more people join who inherently do not enjoy this type of play is retarded and will bring the same results as during season 5 spvp. It would be better to allow for alternative acquisition methods for desired loot instead of blowing up the game mode.

 

Yes, and literally every single one of those MMOs treats their easy mode raids as food for their gear treadmill and disposable content which become obsolete. This was covered in the past, not sure why you have to bring up this dead horse again. This type of approach would not work for GW2, we don't have disposable content with the current itemization model.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> Easy mode raids has been proven in many AAA mmorpg, it works and is vastly more popular.

 

Gear treadmill is also quite popular :)

[TexZero.7910]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > For people who are not interested in raiding but simply the loot, it would be better to add an alternative method of aquisition without destroying the niche game mode.

> > Thread carefully on this tho, it plays great role in killing the core's dungeons :anguished:. Raid have a similar role, a 10man dungeon.

>

> Assuming the skins were obtainable elsewhere, if no one plays raid because of this, were raids a good game mode to begin with? PvP has god awful rewards for the long term players and yet these are precisely the folks that still play it.

>

> Likewise, PvP is a showcase of how much of a failure it is to add rewards as a lure to players who would normally not play the game mode. Population still low and everyone gets pissed (seems familiar if you play with pugs often...)

 

No. PvP was dying off until they added rewards and right now it's returning to that anemic state.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

> >

> > When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

> >

> > And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

> >

> > When you have a group of players who only want people who already has a degree of competency in the content and people who needs some time get acquainted with the content, basically 'throw some corpses at the boss', they will inevitably clash with each other at some point even if you have something like the fractal tiers.

> >

> > Guides, PSAs, videos... that doesn't really work for most people when it comes to action-reaction content. There's time to think about what to do when you are playing Baldur's Gate. A guide can give you a build, and tell you what to bring, or what yo expect, but when you get in the action, there's no time to stop and think "Let's see, what was I supposed to do at this point now.... hm...?" when that green appears. You have to *do*. And there's only one good way to learn 'do' and that's 'doing'.

> >

> > Most players understand that, but the way some people act makes new players think veteran player don't, as if they were expected to be absolutely perfect from the start.

> >

> > Unless impatient players accept they have to slow down for new players, that new blood will be a slow drip.

>

> Then how about it that every new players starts just as everyone else did? With no guides, no training groups, but also no veteran players that help them? Just like we did. What most players dont understand is that everything that is already done for new players is more then enough. When W1 released do you think me and my team got some helpfull advise from some veterans? Or could join a training discord/team/lfg? Heck we even had to figure out team comps first and which class can actual be used. *But* we killed the wing in the end, by wiping until we got it.

> Today, every new player has many viable builds to chose from, you can get guides (being them in form of text or/and videos) for bosses, teams and classes for EACH encounter, you have trainingdiscords and lfgs. IF you really want it to be even slower for new ones then it already is in trainingsruns, sry, but then people should just make their own groups like we did when they are not satisfied and wipe for days though every encounter just like us (which wont happen cause they will just give up when nothing is served on a silver tablet). Trainingcommanders are literally using their time and gain nothing out of it. The only thing you can ask from them is being polite when leading.

> And as Vinceman already said, fresh lvl80 players shouldnt even be there. Raids and high fracs are the *hardest* pve content. It isnt supposed to be able to just jump in and do it. It is a content where players should be prepared, not by default with boss guides, but people should be able to at least pull their weights with their class so that they can focus on learning the raidmechanic, which can be learned by trying to use your buildmechanics in t1-4 fracs and open world.

> But even fracs are getting worse, since it seems to me that even more players jsut skip t1-3 fracs by buying infusions and go into t4 without a single clue what to do.

 

But thats not what the argument is about. Everyone should understand the content is hard; and I really doubt the majority of the "raids are toxic camp" are concerned about the mode's difficulty on this section of the discussion.

 

What most players on the outside see, and what most PUG raiders openly display, is a passive aggressive (sometimes openly hostile) attitude toward failure. Vet players also tend to get bored faster, leading to impatience. This is whats making it insanely hard to get new blood trained up. Most understand that they failed, and usually know what lead up to it..... but what they immediately get frustrated with is being harped on by other members of the team, essentially stating the obvious as if the new player doesn't understand whats going on. And what exacerbates the issue is time pressure (typically food timers) leading to quick criticisms, while the new player is still trying to process the chain of events. Most players are amped up after a wipe, and need a moment to come down from it.... except now you have someone "trying to be helpful" while you're on edge, and internally deconstructing where/how things messed up. Criticism itself isn't the problem, so much as the timing/speed of it is reinforcing the failure rather then helping correct it. Tolerance levels obviously vary from player to player, but its safe to say that keeping a cool head is harder when you're suddenly the center of attention.

 

Training raids aren't immune to this either. I've seen group leaders, whose job it was to host the group and let the newbies get acclimated to the mechanics, knowing full well that the group was going to wipe repeatedly, rage quit on a training run, because people were dying too much or fell out of position too easily. Barely a Half hour into a VG fight, and had only wiped 3 times. In case anyone was wondering- yeah, it was trouble spotting the teleports. Even if thats considered a rare case, its still incredibly demoralizing, and thus the story gets passed around and comes to mind when people mention training raids. And for people who don't have 50+ runs under their belt, a story like this really stands out as being more probable then actually is.

 

I've made like, maybe a dozen training raid attempts, but I have spotted a few reoccurring things with the Vets. What bothers me is that players tend to think these issues are personal or mechanical- but in truth, they're very much a social issue.

- Tact and leadership are in short supply, and those are the very people you need to help new players get up to speed.

- Secondly, static groups are a process of elimination. A lot of people take this for granted; and it frustrates me when people suggest forming your own static group as if that solution is simple. Getting 10 people together in the first place is usually hard enough. Finding 10 people with enough chemistry to avoid personality clashes is even harder. Having 10 people still mesh after 4 weeks is like a finding a unicorn. And now on top of that, failing a lot as the group tries to sort out he details and the learn the fights. Established players will rarely leave their static groups, because they know full well how hard it is to get that organized in the first place.

- Most of these players want to get better, but not nearly enough established players are willing to help train them up properly. Not just give them resources, but properly mentor them, and help them get better.

- The group mentality is something of a hypocrisy. My guild keeps going on and on about "contribution" and a measure of self reliance (ie not screwing up) when it comes to team comp..... but that doesn't make sense when the Team Comp itself is built on the Trinity principles of interdependence, and every player is a single point of failure. Team comp options are flexible, but most would rather just stick to the meta comp because its easier to organize, and expect everyone to eventually "get gud" in their roles. The group hates failing, yet they'll run a much risker team comp because it can clear faster "if played well". This feeds the "static group is ideal" mentality, and is contributing to the social barriers of finding a decent group to be a part of.

- The life of a second string roster sucks. Since forming a new static group is hard, many people try for back up slots in existing static groups just for the better opportunity of getting into a non-training group. Even with 3 groups scheduled at the same time, it was still hard to get into one as a back up for a no-show.

- Training raids aren't really a be-all end-all solution. And I say this because a group of mostly experienced players runs a lot differently then a training raid. Training groups gobble up their margin for error (as expected), so the idea of smooth run is out the window. Maybe they can succeed if they all do well.... but thats playing an odds game with a lot of variables. But in order to really understand a how good group operates, a player needs to be in a group of mostly experienced players. My Guild's raid teams used to leave 1 or 2 slots open as "carry slots" to get new people better practice in a serious run (ie can play their slot, but just needs more experience to improve). These were awesome because players could afford to dip a little bit without dragging the whole team down, and get practice in whatever fight the main group was tackling at the time. But a lot of that got closed off now, as the number of people still playing dwindled, and the remaining 2 static teams are selling raid clears most of the week.

 

The big catch 22 is that groups want more experienced players, but not nearly enough is being done to give many of the interested players the opportunities they need to get better. Instead the outward facing image is that new players are expected to struggle until they're good enough to play with "the real raiders", and that the suffering and rejection is the price to be paid just to be "considered", but not guaranteed a slot. Thats like applying for a job in an unhealthy job market, where only experienced applicants can get a job, but new workers have no opportunity to get experience. And like that kind of crappy job market, as the existing work force dwindles (retires/quits/dies), theres not nearly enough qualified people to back fill those openings. And in desperation, all those potential workers find jobs in other places that are at least hiring.... and most won't bother looking back.

 

But probably the biggest shot in the foot, is the "raids aren't for everyone" mind set as being the reason so few people can get into it. At best its a half truth, as the attitude new players are being faced with is piling on to an already high barrier for entry. "People don't want to invest in getting better" is also a half truth, as people are out there telling new players they're not welcome. Why put the effort into getting into a community thats openly pushing people away? Its almost like Hazing. I can draw other apt similarities, but their too controversial for the forum rules.

 

And while the whole of the raid community may not actsthis way, its become obvious that ones most people are likely to encounter, are the ones giving the whole community a bad name. And I can't help but draw similarities to EVE online, where the game is demanding, and the game play is extremely hostile to players. A game where extortion and espionage are only only encouraged, but bleeds over into the real world. Where you have to cover you own ass at all times, just to get your day to day activates done without being randomly ganked. A game where theres nothing to stop a new players from getting decimated by other players given half an opportunity. In spite all of that, EVE players knowing they have a image problem thats preventing new players (fresh meat) from joining in the game, have formed and maintained an alliance, whose sole purpose, is to take in new players, teach them the game, and mentor them long enough to stand one their own. The game is extremely unforgiving.... but EVE University is one of the few organizations in the game that has almost universal respect across the player base; because its serves an important purpose in maintaining a healthy population for the game.

...... speaking of which, I know there are Training organizations in GW2 for raid training..... but why it is I rarely see them brought up? Now I'm starting to wonder if established raiders even know they exist.

[Radon.6710]

@"starlinvf.1358"

What i feel you're writing about is new person without any experience joinning the group that requires 250+LI and expect them to teach him how it's done for some reason?

Your story about commander leaving training group after 3 wipes, thats VERY dependant on how those wipes went. If people came there without any preparation at all and expected to go through raids without any hassle then yes i would leave as well.

Also what i found after doing tons and tons of trainings and learning new players is, some players just dont have mental capacity to do raids or need several hundred pulls for them to learn basic stuff which is unacceptable for most people because they would just waste time.

You are also mentioning that "meta" is composition that is made to make it faster if played properly?

Meta are builds built specificaly to get most outcome out of the class. So even if people play it very poorly, you still get outcome that isnt counter productive.

 

Also i have not met any mentors that would just kick or scream at people that actually came prepared. People can even sacrifice few wipes (like <5) for that person to get that experience if its low LI group. But people gotta understand, that when someone writes "XXX LI, CLASS", then that's what they are expecting to get, and no one cares that you have something else. ONLY thing i am asking of new raiders is to PREPARE before entering raid and THIS is such a huge deal that most people just spit on and call it toxicity and hateful community.

[polvere.2805]

@"starlinvf.1358"

 

Honestly the only time i see things you describe is when new players that want to raid must be babysitted and they come to a new boss without even have read a guide or watched a video.

 

After my first month of raiding i was already full clearing beside Dhuum and SH with my actual guild that i knew after doing some training. Guess what: they noticed that i put efforts in learning mechs, gearing chars and learning different roles.

I have been in a LOT of training and i escaped after getting the basics. People in training are 90% of the time slackers and leechers and a LOT of commanders know it really well. Some of them have the patience to babysit people in every situation but honestly the commanders don't get paid for his training work so why should them be put through the hassle of spending hours teaching random people that come in raid with the same mentality of open world where you join a squad and just follow comm ?

 

I don't have problems with newbies, and i am willing to take them in my raids when i command (some people in game added me in friendlist to know when i command cause i took them in even if they had low LI). I don't care about 999999+ LI, as long as i can see you putting effort in doing your things so:

Come to a raid prepared, know your class, you will see that in 3 tries you are already doing more than what is required and probably killing the boss. If you are not willing to do your homework and put enough effort into the raid then i am sorry but i don't want you in my group.

You can miss a blue on VG, heck even 2 or 3. But if in 3 tries i see you missing ALL the blues every time then we have a problem: you are not focusing and not paying attention, why are you even raiding? Don't waste 9 people time.

 

Guild wars has plenty of content for braindead keyboard smashing, raiding is not for that

 

EDIT: Mentoring for bosses/classes is supposed to happen when you already know the boss/class but want to achieve a deeper knowledge that can't be found on guides. Do you need a mentor to read on the wiki how to dodge blues ? Or to learn how to do a rotation ? Snowcrows is there for you.

I dunno what training are you joining, in my training we did a few encounters and we tried ALL the tactics known on the boss. We /gg at 2% often in order to try the boss more