Endgame Runes and Sigil are boring

[maddoctor.2738]

The runes/sigils are a clear example of why giving more choice to players, leads to less choice in the end.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> The runes/sigils are a clear example of why giving more choice to players, leads to less choice in the end.

 

No it's a clear example of choices needing BALANCE otherwise they're not actual choices; unless you don't care about performance at all.

 

But they can't balance runes and sigils because PVE players hate change, nerfs and balance. That's why they rebalanced them for PvP and ignored PvE. Because if they touched PvE all they'd have gotten was tears.

 

"Why did my concentration sigil / leadership runes / durability runes / energy sigil / force sigil / air sigil / bursting / malice / geomancy / ... get nerfed that cost money ! QQ" ... Probably because they're all absurdly broken; but hey don't mind me.

 

I like how concentration sigil wasn't ever added to PVP. That just tells us they were very aware they created an insanely broken sigil, then put it behind scribing as a "reward" for scribing. Just like how the HoT runes are across the board stronger than the vanilla ones, but a reward of those "meta's". PoF wasn't as bad in that regard.

[Feanor.2358]

Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche. PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

 

What I liked in D3 and was proposed here was the way the set/legendary affixes changed the gameplay. However, this can't work here, because many of these effects are extremely powerful even in their lowest "balance setting". Consider an effect which makes a damage skill trigger multiple times per cast. The absolute minimum of its power is x2. Whereas a bonus is normally considered strong if it averages 10% in this game. That's a huge difference. And it kind of *needs* to be a huge difference to make it a game-changer. Nobody said ever "oh, look, I can change my whole gear so one of my skills can now deal 10% extra damage"!

 

The path chosen here since pretty much the start is very different. The game offers some extra effects but they are either extremely niche, or just flavour. Effects with much less power are locked behind huge cooldowns (e.g. rune effects triggering on elite skill). It's a way to balance them, but it also makes them either unreliable or situational.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

 

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".

It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

 

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

 

If we do include WvW or even "optimized" off-meta builds, then most of the builds which share boons and even many builds which self-stack boons end up using this sigil. Because it's stat value is just higher than almost all alternatives.

 

Similar things can be stated regarding leadership and durability runes. Wasn't passive procs or converting condies on elite enough?

 

 

>PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

 

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

 

 

> The path chosen here since pretty much the start is very different. The game offers some extra effects but they are either extremely niche, or just flavour. Effects with much less power are locked behind huge cooldowns (e.g. rune effects triggering on elite skill). It's a way to balance them, but it also makes them either unreliable or situational.

 

And at the end of the day, some options are vastly more powerful than others in a LOT of situations. We can talk about the situational advantage of leadership runes and their 45s ICD; meanwhile they're used in all three gamemodes just because their stat value is absurdly high compared to alternatives. Even without using the elite procs appropriately it's often the best choice.

 

You can cut 100 stats from dura runes and still have them used on most of the builds they're currently used (but less frequent, and dominant.)

You can cut 5% boon duration or more from leadership and have the same. Or you can remove the "flair" elite effect of leadership completely and they'd still be used.

You can nerf concentration sigil to 20% boon duration from 33% and it'd still be... right, meta on many of the same PvE builds.

You can literally halve the endurance gain from energy sigils and ... yup, still going to be used in the same places.

 

If these statements are true; is it not possible that runes and sigils are quite unbalanced? Do you think these statements are very untrue?

[maxwelgm.4315]

What's a more useful playstyle variant than more damage? As long as they don't _force_ you to soak damage or apply very specific conditions to enemies, there is no reason not to go +boon +dmg all the way all the time and learn to dodge.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > The runes/sigils are a clear example of why giving more choice to players, leads to less choice in the end.

>

> No it's a clear example of choices needing BALANCE otherwise they're not actual choices; unless you don't care about performance at all.

 

There is no way to balance so many sigils and runes some will always be better than others. There will ALWAYS be the best option and it's the same with gear stats

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > The runes/sigils are a clear example of why giving more choice to players, leads to less choice in the end.

> >

> > No it's a clear example of choices needing BALANCE otherwise they're not actual choices; unless you don't care about performance at all.

>

> There is no way to balance so many sigils and runes some will always be better than others. There will ALWAYS be the best option and it's the same with gear stats

 

Thats not a good excuse for leaving them in their state.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > The runes/sigils are a clear example of why giving more choice to players, leads to less choice in the end.

> >

> > No it's a clear example of choices needing BALANCE otherwise they're not actual choices; unless you don't care about performance at all.

>

> There is no way to balance so many sigils and runes some will always be better than others. There will ALWAYS be the best option and it's the same with gear stats

 

"perfect balance is impossible so there's no point in bothering with balancing at all"

You know, there's no way for ANYTHING, EVER to be absolutely perfect. So we should stop trying to improve things all together, because we can never reach something that's truly perfect anyways!

 

Why do I keep hearing this excuse left right and center when talking about balance in GW2?? All it does is prove you don't have a clue about how balance works.

 

If sigil of concentration would still be used on boon-heavy classes at 20% boon duration; wouldn't it also allow more alternatives and "real choices" to take place?

 

Imagine you had a sigil which gives 10% bonus damage, and another one which gives 11% bonus damage to targets under 50%. The sigil with 10% bonus damage is virtually always better; because it's numeric balance is way off. Yet still, the concept of these runes isn't bad. Devs notice one sigil is overused and the other is underused and ITERATIVELY balance accordingly.

 

What would be balanced for damage under 50% to compare to 10% bonus damage? If it gives 20%; you have similar overall DPS modifiers for large-HP in PvE. Yet still, it might be valuable to do more damage during the last 50% which is typically more "difficult" phases than the first 50%.

Likewise for WvW; one might value damage above 50% more as enemies are mostly above 50% for the higher sustained DPS; or you might value the "spike damage" players under 50% receive resulting in a higher chance of creating downstates.

 

And these options, the same options, are mch more balanced. But that's not how GW2 rolls.

 

Compare rune of the forgeman to rune of durability, and seriously tell me you think these runes are "balanced".

 

Forgeman :

175 toughness

15% protection duration

10% burning duration

10 second protection (personal) + single target burn on 60s ICD

 

Durability :

175 toughness - the same

+125 vitality - FREE BONUS

20% boon duration - ALL BOONS YAY

+3s protection, 3s regen, 1s resistance for 5 man AoE with 20 second ICD.

 

Yeah I wonder why NOBODY ever uses forgeman and durability is "meta" on half the builds in the game. Forgeman isn't a "choice" unless you're roleplaying. It's just another noobtrap to bait mediocre players into taking something that shouldn't even be presented as an option. Why do we have "major" and "superior" runes if durability is plain superior over fogeman? :trollface:

 

Not sure why I even try to argue with players that say "perfect balance is impossible, might as well stop trying" tho. If that's the extent of your insight in balance, please just steer away from it and let other players handle it.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> Why do I keep hearing this excuse left right and center when talking about balance in GW2?? All it does is prove you don't have a clue about how balance works.

 

Because this "excuse" is reality. There are 97 Superior Runes in the game. Do you honestly believe that they can make them equally "balanced" in some way or form? I hope you can understand why that's an impossibility. They could make some more valid choices here and there yes but currently they've been more inclined to use expansions instead. Instead of "balancing" old Runes, they introduce new ones with expansions that are obviously better than the old ones. It happens with gear stats too (Viper)

 

For example:

The Rune of Durability was added with Heart of Thorns, it's exclusive to the expansion (in PVE) you can get them from WVW though.

Rune of the Forgeman in contrast is a core game rune, and one that was available on release. Plus it's really cheap to get. Both good reasons for it to be inferior to the Rune of Durability, which is more expensive/harder to get and requires the expansion.

 

Same happens when they introduce other new sigils/runes (Sigil of Concentration) and even gear stats (Viper/Commander)

There is a lot more going on with balancing than the items themselves and trying to balance every single Rune/Sigil would be silly and not really needed.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > Why do I keep hearing this excuse left right and center when talking about balance in GW2?? All it does is prove you don't have a clue about how balance works.

>

> Because this "excuse" is reality. There are 97 Superior Runes in the game. Do you honestly believe that they can make them equally "balanced" in some way or form? I hope you can understand why that's an impossibility. They could make some more valid choices here and there yes but currently they've been more inclined to use expansions instead. Instead of "balancing" old Runes, they introduce new ones with expansions that are obviously better than the old ones. It happens with gear stats too (Viper)

>

> For example:

> The Rune of Durability was added with Heart of Thorns, it's exclusive to the expansion (in PVE) you can get them from WVW though.

> Rune of the Forgeman in contrast is a core game rune, and one that was available on release. Plus it's really cheap to get. Both good reasons for it to be inferior to the Rune of Durability, which is more expensive/harder to get and requires the expansion.

>

> Same happens when they introduce other new sigils/runes (Sigil of Concentration) and even gear stats (Viper/Commander)

> There is a lot more going on with balancing than the items themselves and trying to balance every single Rune/Sigil would be silly and not really needed.

 

So i guess by expac 3 they should stop balancing elite specs because we will have 27 diff specs, 252 traits 270+ new skills etc.

 

They dont have to balance all 97 traits or keep them in game even. They can balance some portion of them and achieve more diversity or rework the system and take that opportunity to remove some useless traits.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > There is no way to balance so many sigils and runes some will always be better than others. There will ALWAYS be the best option and it's the same with gear stats

>

> Thats not a good excuse for leaving them in their state.

 

For some Runes/Sigils maybe not, some certainly need changes. But for a lot of them it is a very good reason. A rune/sigil that is locked behind an expansion or is very expensive to craft **should** offer something more than one that you can get as a random drop or buy it cheap from a dungeon vendor. There are of course seriously powerful items that need addressing but a lot of them are fine the way they are. They offer OPTIONS for newer players, instead of getting Rune of the Scholar, which is expensive for a new player, they could Rune of Flame Legion that are really easy to get (if they are a Guardian or can apply consistent burning)

 

They did a rather big pass on sigils/runes in 2014:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2014-04-15

Obviously those balance changes do not affect the expansion Runes (they weren't available) but it was an attempt to balance Core Sigils and Runes.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> So i guess by expac 3 they should stop balancing elite specs because we will have 27 diff specs, 252 traits 270+ new skills etc.

 

I think they already stopped caring about the Heart of Thorns elite specs. Where are the Scrapper, Tempest, Reaper and Herald "reworks"? Those 4 elite specs are probably the weakest in all game modes or simply surpassed by the Path of Fire elite specs.

[Etheri.5406]

>Because this "excuse" is reality.

 

No grasp of iterative balancing cycles; noted. Didn't we have clear statements runes and sigils were a mess even in the core game? Oh right, we did.

I do believe it's pretty doable to create 97 runes which are different. Balancing them is an iterative work. So yes, you can long term make them more or less balanced. At the very least far better than now.

 

So instead of balancing "old runes", you just... add better ones that invalidate most of your old runes and throw balance completely out of the window. Because clearly that's better. That creates options and great gameplay. "Run X rune depending on niche; don't worry about flavor because all core-flavor runes are trash anyways". What's the point of having them, for F2P players?

 

Wait no, first in 2014 we rebalance runes and sigils, then in 2015 we add a bunch of broken options and never revise them within 3 years to ensure our own work on trying to balance the runes and sigils is overridden in favor of dumbly broken options because "expansion content".

 

"Balance is overrated, it's OK to add blatant powercreep invalidating choices with every expansion ad infinitum and lets pretend it doesn't create constant issues"

 

But JUST to play with your theory...

 

During PoF they add rune of rebirth, giving 100 concentration. Yet leadership still gives 30% boon duration. I mean hey, concentration and boon duration are different names... Surely the population won't notice they're really the same thing and one is LOL WAY BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Surely they won't consider adding concentration AND boon duration to runes in HUGE differing amounts is completely absurd and inconsistent. Nahh, it's all reasonable balancing.

 

Apply your "logic" to rune of rebirth and... right, inconsistent all across the place. 100 stats and 6% boon duration + passive effect compared to... dura's 300 stats + 20% boon duration + passive effect? Yeah; I see new runes clearly must be better.

 

Oh wait no, balance is just 404 NOT FOUND. Discussing balance with players who don't grasp what balance means. I'm out yet again.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > So i guess by expac 3 they should stop balancing elite specs because we will have 27 diff specs, 252 traits 270+ new skills etc.

>

> I think they already stopped caring about the Heart of Thorns elite specs. Where are the Scrapper, Tempest, Reaper and Herald "reworks"? Those 4 elite specs are probably the weakest in all game modes or simply surpassed by the Path of Fire elite specs.

 

Iirc herald is a beast in pvp reaper is strong as well and since the last patch herald is strong in pve too. Tenpest doesnt need a rework its a healing/boon soec and it does that well.

 

The only one out of those fir specs that needs a rework is scrapper. Reaper and herald dont need a rework their main classes do.

 

Also chrono recieved changes when the mesmer rework happened.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> No grasp of iterative balancing cycles; noted. Didn't we have clear statements runes and sigils were a mess even in the core game? Oh right, we did.

 

Take a look:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2014-04-15

They did a balance pass on Runes/Sigils. If you check the most overpowered Runes and Sigils are mostly about expansion items (or clearly universal powerful ones like Sigil of Force)

 

> So instead of balancing "old runes", you just... add better ones that invalidate most of your old runes and throw balance completely out of the window.

Yes that's what they do. They don't throw balance out of the window. Have you seen what you need to do to get Rune of Leadership or a Sigil of Concentration? These overpowered items are "balanced" because they require a heavy grind or are simply way more expensive than the other options. Is it a "good" system? Of course they could enhance it, and do another balance pass, but you need to understand that this is the kind of balance used on those items, their "price" is part of the balance, otherwise a very expensive item that is "balanced" with a 1 silver item, will be practically worthless.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > No grasp of iterative balancing cycles; noted. Didn't we have clear statements runes and sigils were a mess even in the core game? Oh right, we did.

>

> Take a look:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2014-04-15

> They did a balance pass on Runes/Sigils. If you check the most overpowered Runes and Sigils are mostly about expansion items (or clearly universal powerful ones like Sigil of Force)

>

> > So instead of balancing "old runes", you just... add better ones that invalidate most of your old runes and throw balance completely out of the window.

> Yes that's what they do. They don't throw balance out of the window. Have you seen what you need to do to get Rune of Leadership or a Sigil of Concentration? These overpowered items are "balanced" because they require a heavy grind or are simply way more expensive than the other options. Is it a "good" system? Of course they could enhance it, and do another balance pass, but you need to understand that this is the kind of balance used on those items, their "price" is part of the balance, otherwise a very expensive item that is "balanced" with a 1 silver item, will be practically worthless.

 

I referred to that... You stated expansion ones are "supposed" to be more overpowered. Also after that, they reworked PvP ones AND didn't even add some blatantly overpowered options in PvP knowing it wasn't balanced. But they can't change PvE ones, because the community and low end scrubs cry without grasping balance is REQUIRED for them to be special snowflakes allowed to have options which are "offmeta" but not straight up garbage.

 

So tell me; what's the value of trying to balance runes to then add clearly overpowered ones soon after; which are then ignored and left in a highly unbalanced state for 3+ years?

 

Also, are you having issues with keeping your argument straight? First there's no point in trying to balance them. Then expansion ones are supposed to be OP. Then they tried to balance them and the inbalance just comes from expansion ones. So are we trying to improve their balance or not? Are we pretending they're "balanced" because clearly, HoT is supposed to give stronger gear than PoF and core game? **consistency**

 

:trollface:

[Etheri.5406]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > So i guess by expac 3 they should stop balancing elite specs because we will have 27 diff specs, 252 traits 270+ new skills etc.

>

> I think they already stopped caring about the Heart of Thorns elite specs. Where are the Scrapper, Tempest, Reaper and Herald "reworks"? Those 4 elite specs are probably the weakest in all game modes or simply surpassed by the Path of Fire elite specs.

 

Scrapper got reworks and buffs and is finding a role as support. It's meta on large scale WvW and off-meta on pve. Tempest is also pushed towards that support role and is still one of the best healers in the game. Both just don't have a place because another HOT spec - DRUID - is vastly superior in PvE. Herald currently is viable in ALL THREE GAMEMODES as power DPS. It's META in WvW and PVP and has 33k benchmark in PVE. Reaper has continuously received buffs and is viable in PvP, but I admit it's outclassed by scourge.

 

So the only class which doesn't have a niche that you mentioned is reaper.

 

Again, you show you don't grasp balance nor what goes on in the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> I referred to that... You stated expansion ones are "supposed" to be more overpowered.

It's the same with elite specs really. Expansion items are supposed to be "overpowered", or rather Heart of Thorns items are, in Path of Fire new items aren't as overpowered.

 

> So tell me; what's the value of trying to balance runes to then add clearly overpowered ones soon after; which are then ignored and left in a highly unbalanced state for 3+ years?

I think that's my question.

 

> First there's no point in trying to balance them.

I said, there is no point in trying to balance all of them. That point never changed and never will, some Runes and Sigils are much cheaper or easier to acquire while others are harder to get and/or more expensive. For obvious balance reasons, I hope you understand that the word Balance includes acquisition too, they should stay the way they are.

 

One of the major changes they did in that 2014 Rune/Sigil balance pass was the addition of Ferocity. Because prior to that patch, Critical Damage was a percentage stat. For starters, they MUST do the same with Concentration and Boon Duration, give items Concentration and remove Boon Duration from the game, same treatment they gave Ferocity. Why they haven't this yet is a mystery.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > I referred to that... You stated expansion ones are "supposed" to be more overpowered.

> It's the same with elite specs really. Expansion items are supposed to be "overpowered", or rather Heart of Thorns items are, in Path of Fire new items aren't as overpowered.

>

> > So tell me; what's the value of trying to balance runes to then add clearly overpowered ones soon after; which are then ignored and left in a highly unbalanced state for 3+ years?

> I think that's my question.

>

> > First there's no point in trying to balance them.

> I said, there is no point in trying to balance all of them. That point never changed and never will, some Runes and Sigils are much cheaper or easier to acquire while others are harder to get and/or more expensive. For obvious balance reasons, I hope you understand that the word Balance includes acquisition too, they should stay the way they are.

>

> One of the major changes they did in that 2014 Rune/Sigil balance pass was the addition of Ferocity. Because prior to that patch, Critical Damage was a percentage stat. For starters, they MUST do the same with Concentration and Boon Duration, give items Concentration and remove Boon Duration from the game, same treatment they gave Ferocity. Why they haven't this yet is a mystery.

 

Prices are fluid. If you nerf hot runes or buff core the prices will change accordingly.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> Scrapper got reworks and buffs and is finding a role as support. It's meta on large scale WvW and off-meta on pve. Tempest is also pushed towards that support role and is still one of the best healers in the game. Both just don't have a place because another HOT spec - DRUID - is vastly superior in PvE. Herald currently is viable in ALL THREE GAMEMODES as power DPS. It's META in WvW and PVP and has 33k benchmark in PVE. Reaper has continuously received buffs and is viable in PvP, but I admit it's outclassed by scourge.

>

> So the only class which doesn't have a niche that you mentioned is reaper.

>

> Again, you show you don't grasp balance nor what goes on in the game.

 

Scrapper is what in PVE now? Scrapper is still trash tier in PVE now if it's meta in WVW I don't really care because I don't play WVW.

Tempest has the best healing, but lacks anything else to make the spec useful in actual encounters.

As for Herald, Herald got minimal buffs/changes itself, one trait and one skill don't really count as "Herald changes". Herald itself is still lacking in options and what is pushing the spec are the buffs to core Revenant.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Because this "excuse" is reality. There are 97 Superior Runes in the game. Do you honestly believe that they can make them equally "balanced" in some way or form? I hope you can understand why that's an impossibility.

 

That's the first part of the problem.

 

Sure there's 97 options. But maybe all but 10 of them are worthwhile.

 

They need to first squash then rework the rune system. Same goes for sigils.

We could quite easily do without the x% damage to y enemy sigils just as an example.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> That's the first part of the problem.

>

> Sure there's 97 options. But maybe all but 10 of them are worthwhile.

>

> They need to first squash then rework the rune system. Same goes for sigils.

> We could quite easily do without the x% damage to y enemy sigils just as an example.

 

This is true, they should -vastly- reduce the number of options as the first step.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

>

> Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".

> It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

>

> You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

 

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

 

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> >PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

>

> I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

 

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference *is* narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

 

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have *this* set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

> >

> > Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".

> > It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

> >

> > You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

>

> By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

>

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > >PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

> >

> > I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

>

> Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference *is* narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

>

> The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have *this* set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

 

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

> > >

> > > Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".

> > > It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

> > >

> > > You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

> >

> > By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

> >

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > >PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

> > >

> > > I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

> >

> > Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference *is* narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

> >

> > The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have *this* set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

>

> Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

 

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?