Dungeons are dead

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Dungeons are still being played. There are a few specific rune sets that can only be obtained thru them that are apart of the META. On peak hours there are groups especially for CM, AC and TA. Best part is that you don't need 5 people anymore.

[ich.7086]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > @LSD.4673 said:

> > > Forced cutscenes with terrible dialogue, which have to be collectively skipped by all members of the party, and the inability to enter unless someone has completed the awful "story" path **on that character**...i can't understand how this was considered a good idea at the time, let alone why its still ongoing to this day.

> > > They're painful to run. Then you have lengthy sections of trash mobs where the only logical choice is to keep running, or sections with eye-bleedingly slow progression (Catacombs "defend the ghost collectors", SE "defend the guy while he grabs a boulder", CoF "defend against the Legion assassins").

> > > It's horriffic.

> >

> > Well I love trash mobs. First, they're fun to kill with my guardian, then, they give tons of crafting mats. Skipping them is a mistake too many people tend to do, so i sometimes "accidentally" engage trash mobs. B) Of course not all dungeons provide valuable crafting mats so in AC I rarely do that, I don't need that much low level dusts, but Caudecus or CoE are really good candidates for full clears, and you get a much better gold/hour ratio doing so. Of course citadel of flame is awesome for that, it's really unfortunate it's much harder to have people clearing everything because skips are trivial. Also, some slower pacing is fine between two more intense fights. Newer content kind of lacks that.

>

> All other dungeon's trash mobs are ok, but Arah's trash mobs are way too annoying.

Arah trahs are clearly design to be skipped. At release time without all powercreep, doing p4 without skipping would take at least 2 hours and with a good group.

 

The biggest problem of dungeons atm is that at least half of lfg has no clue about the tactics so you have to explain how to do kegs every run. And don't get me started about all the full mastery legendary wearing people walking out of SR every time just to die into the bomb in CoF p3 and I have lost hope to have my smoke field blasted (i even did some lengthy how-to about combo after a p2 to some condi ranger who never notice that 2 axe inside a 5 torch did bonus burn).

 

I don't want to put exp in my lfg because teaching pugs is what makes the community better at the game but teaching game mechanics...

[xDudisx.5914]

I remember running pretty much all dungeon paths daily because back in the days it was a great source of gold. AC 1-2-3, CM 1-2-3, COF 1-2, COE 1-2-3, etc. In the beginning of the game it was also a good place to level up alts, about 1 level per path. It also gave the best gear on the game (exotic) since ascended did't exist.

 

Nowadays people have hundreds of tomes and exotic is basically what rare gear was 5 years ago. There is little incentive to complete a dungeon.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

 

> All of the trash mobs that cause issues in Arah are either projectile based so you need reflects or some sort of anti projectile stuff, or puke on your face, so you need to stay behind. I never had any issue killing trash in Arah; Arah's trash is in fact easier than Caudecus' trash, at least there's no constant hard CC spam, and if you're clearing, soft CC isn't an issue at all. What I'm having issues with is the Lupi boss, this thing will start spreading condi zones hitting for 10k per tick and starts doing damage the very second the aoe appears, which is blatantly unfair. I very rarely go past this dude for that reason and have more or less given up on Arah.

 

But pugs aren't that good or don't want to spend much effort on it due to the meh reward.

 

I would prefer Anet to remove and nerf most of them, that would make more ppl want to run them.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @ich.7086 said:

> Arah trahs are clearly design to be skipped. At release time without all powercreep, doing p4 without skipping would take at least 2 hours and with a good group.

>

> The biggest problem of dungeons atm is that at least half of lfg has no clue about the tactics so you have to explain how to do kegs every run. And don't get me started about all the full mastery legendary wearing people walking out of SR every time just to die into the bomb in CoF p3 and I have lost hope to have my smoke field blasted (i even did some lengthy how-to about combo after a p2 to some condi ranger who never notice that 2 axe inside a 5 torch did bonus burn).

>

> I don't want to put exp in my lfg because teaching pugs is what makes the community better at the game but teaching game mechanics...

 

Because it gives shitty reward now other than the skin token, ppl no longer want to spend much time and effort on it, it would be the best to remove and nerf the trash mobs to make the run shorter. Just let us focus on bosses.

[Westenev.5289]

I'm kind of on the side-lines about dungeons. Anet will never revisit them, so maybe if they are deleted, perhaps Anet will provide something new and "Better" (or, at the very least, we'd be able to push the community towards areas that need more activity). On the other hand, I think they're an indispensable tool for older players teaching newbies how to play the game. Going from Open World straight to Fractals/Raids would be one hell of a culture shock.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I could do many easily zerg events with much better rewards than doing Arah, other than the skins(I got pretty much all I needed) I can't find a reason to do it.

[Westenev.5289]

Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

 

The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

>

> The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

 

Other dungeons, yes.

Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

[Westenev.5289]

And remove one of the only places in the game where thief support excels?

 

If anything, we need more skippable trash mobs.

 

#Makethievesrelevantagain!

[Zenith.7301]

They could address this by making the third PvE daily always a dungeon path. So you get a daily for exploration, aa daily for gathering, and a daily for dungeon path. No more PvP bullshit to get your dailies done.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> And remove one of the only places in the game where thief support excels?

>

> If anything, we need more skippable trash mobs.

>

> #Makethievesrelevantagain!

 

Sure I have a thief as well, but I don't think Arah is the way to go, ppl don't even run them much anymore.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @Westenev.5289 said:

> > Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

> >

> > The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

>

> Other dungeons, yes.

> Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

 

10g+ per 2 paths is decent g/h for the difficulty. The gold reward is not everything you get as reward.

[ich.7086]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @ich.7086 said:

> > Arah trahs are clearly design to be skipped. At release time without all powercreep, doing p4 without skipping would take at least 2 hours and with a good group.

> >

> > The biggest problem of dungeons atm is that at least half of lfg has no clue about the tactics so you have to explain how to do kegs every run. And don't get me started about all the full mastery legendary wearing people walking out of SR every time just to die into the bomb in CoF p3 and I have lost hope to have my smoke field blasted (i even did some lengthy how-to about combo after a p2 to some condi ranger who never notice that 2 axe inside a 5 torch did bonus burn).

> >

> > I don't want to put exp in my lfg because teaching pugs is what makes the community better at the game but teaching game mechanics...

>

> Because it gives kitten reward now other than the skin token, ppl no longer want to spend much time and effort on it, it would be the best to remove and nerf the trash mobs to make the run shorter. Just let us focus on bosses.

 

With proper build and tactics, g/h is really decent and it's way easier to achieve than f40 farm or t4 daily fractals.

 

Nerfing trash would do nothing to increase g/h since those are skipped anyway if they can't be instantly cleaved down.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > > @Westenev.5289 said:

> > > Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

> > >

> > > The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

> >

> > Other dungeons, yes.

> > Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

>

> 10g+ per 2 paths is decent g/h for the difficulty. The gold reward is not everything you get as reward.

 

Didn't they nerf the gold reward?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @ich.7086 said:

 

>

> With proper build and tactics, g/h is really decent and it's way easier to achieve than f40 farm or t4 daily fractals.

>

> Nerfing trash would do nothing to increase g/h since those are skipped anyway if they can't be instantly cleaved down.

 

I don't do those, I just go with zerg events.

 

Nerfing trash would make the run shorter and easier like the other ones.

[ich.7086]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > > @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > > > @Westenev.5289 said:

> > > > Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

> > > >

> > > > The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

> > >

> > > Other dungeons, yes.

> > > Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

> >

> > 10g+ per 2 paths is decent g/h for the difficulty. The gold reward is not everything you get as reward.

>

> Didn't they nerf the gold reward?

 

They moved a port of the gold reward into chest of dungeoneering so you can't just farm the same path over and over but have to do 8 different paths. On a rotation like AC p1-2 / CM p1 / SE p1-3 / CoF p1-2 / CoE p1 it's really quick.

 

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @ich.7086 said:

>

> >

> > With proper build and tactics, g/h is really decent and it's way easier to achieve than f40 farm or t4 daily fractals.

> >

> > Nerfing trash would do nothing to increase g/h since those are skipped anyway if they can't be instantly cleaved down.

>

> I don't do those, I just go with zerg events.

>

> Nerfing trash would make the run shorter and easier like the other ones.

 

I don't see why nerfing trash will make the run shorter since you **skip** (we are speaking of Arah here) them thus spending no time to kill them.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @ich.7086 said:

> They moved a port of the gold reward into chest of dungeoneering so you can't just farm the same path over and over but have to do 8 different paths. On a rotation like AC p1-2 / CM p1 / SE p1-3 / CoF p1-2 / CoE p1 it's really quick.

>

Yeah I'm talking about Arah, the other ones were fine.

 

 

> > > @ich.7086 said:

> I don't see why nerfing trash will make the run shorter since you **skip** (we are speaking of Arah here) them thus spending no time to kill them.

 

Yes it would, so ppl won't have to die along the long way and make the run very painful. wipes like Lupi would also not cause a long runback with careful skipping in the previous room every time. Arah was way too painful to run compare to others. dungeon should let ppl focus on bosses and events instead of inserting tons of elite annoying mobs on the way with no good drop.

 

I really don't understand why did they let trash mobs respawn in the dungeon as well.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > > @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > > > @Westenev.5289 said:

> > > > Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

> > > >

> > > > The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

> > >

> > > Other dungeons, yes.

> > > Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

> >

> > 10g+ per 2 paths is decent g/h for the difficulty. The gold reward is not everything you get as reward.

>

> Didn't they nerf the gold reward?

 

You can convert tokens into gold. Arah recipes sell for 9g+ each

[Rennie.6750]

> @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > > @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > > > @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > > > > @Westenev.5289 said:

> > > > > Whereas a player like me can't do Zerg events without falling asleep at the wheel.

> > > > >

> > > > > The rewards are still decent, I think it's just the general perception that they aren't is what keeps new blood (and speedrun strategies) away.

> > > >

> > > > Other dungeons, yes.

> > > > Arah? Nah unless I really want the skins. Make it shorter would be very nice. Lupi is good, just remove and nerf the trash mobs so I don't have to skip everything.

> > >

> > > 10g+ per 2 paths is decent g/h for the difficulty. The gold reward is not everything you get as reward.

> >

> > Didn't they nerf the gold reward?

>

> You can convert tokens into gold. Arah recipes sell for 9g+ each

 

If you're lucky enough to get a recipe. I do dungeons regularly and never got any.

[Obtena.7952]

I didn't know they transferred threads from the old forum ... this complaint is as old as it gets. I don't see a problem here ... old content that's not even supported anymore. Why WOULDN'T they be dead? Especially on the eve of a new expansion? This is no surprise.

[Mikeskies.1536]

If you advertise in LFG, you can always fill a dungeon group within 5 minutes.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> If you advertise in LFG, you can always fill a dungeon group within 5 minutes.

 

Arah takes longer, usually 10-20 mins.

[nagr.1593]

> @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

> > @ich.7086 said:

> > They moved a port of the gold reward into chest of dungeoneering so you can't just farm the same path over and over but have to do 8 different paths. On a rotation like AC p1-2 / CM p1 / SE p1-3 / CoF p1-2 / CoE p1 it's really quick.

> >

> Yeah I'm talking about Arah, the other ones were fine.

>

>

> > > > @ich.7086 said:

> > I don't see why nerfing trash will make the run shorter since you **skip** (we are speaking of Arah here) them thus spending no time to kill them.

>

> Yes it would, so ppl won't have to die along the long way and make the run very painful. wipes like Lupi would also not cause a long runback with careful skipping in the previous room every time. Arah was way too painful to run compare to others. dungeon should let ppl focus on bosses and events instead of inserting tons of elite annoying mobs on the way with no good drop.

>

> I really don't understand why did they let trash mobs respawn in the dungeon as well.

 

I don't think you've seen pugs attempt arah before HoT back when people were running dungeons daily lol.. or you would not be complaining of skips and nerfs on mobs etc. In fact i would argue that, under the hypothetical assumption that dungeon nerf was justified, then it should follow that bc in the game recent state that same rewards should be _further_ nerfed, i'll get to that reasoning later.

 

I still remember about half the pugs for p2 (before elite specs) would take ~1 hour to complete from start to finish, include maybe 2-3 attempt at lupi and often under-man (ex. 2 man) the abom part if we didn't have a thief and/or others were not exp with the trash run. Even more honestly, soloing said path would arguably take somewhat _shorter_ to complete than with a pug group. So i'm not sure why they should suddenly nerf what was supposed to be meant as the most difficult dungeon of the once-endgame content.

 

Strangely a lot of ppl complaining about dungeon rewards too, but keep in mind this happen well before advent of HoT powercreep afaik. To give you an example, the main reason I upgraded to HoT personally (about ~6 months after it was released) was because it was highly advantageous to do so. At that time, _power_ ps berserker alone did more than *2x* damage than its non-elite-spec power ps counterpart. That's with the power build alone (e.g. gs and mace/shield, although now rendered obsolete) ! I cant imagine the ramp-up from power to condi taken separately, looking at current benchmarks for example.

 

So if we assume something like ~5x total ramp up in dps at the current state of things compare to when the dungeon nerf was occurred (very rough estimate), then it follows that _effective health_ of a pug also increase by a similar amount. So this lead to survivability being higher because mobs are melting like butter atm, and to a lesser extent personal survival such as needed for trash runs is also slightly increased because theres _more options_ of skills and traits to run, etc. For example, assuming you raid: your chrono is already mostly minstrel, stacking high toughness and/or vitality and healing power because that's meta, yeah? So its easier for you to trash run also, plus you dont have to change your build even. Not to assume how they are still letting some things slide for dungeons like arah, say stuff like cheesing Lupi from 75% to 0-50% health is still a very bad and stubborn pug habit. I just did arah for the first time in many months a few weeks ago, and wouldn't you know on the first run a guard walled Lupi and cheesed him, resulting in us killing it sub-2min on our first try.. so i'm not sure why they should nerf the dungeon further when its keystone boss melts like he being thrown thru a meat grinder.

 

_tl;dr:_ Imo either rewards for dungeons should be nerfed further or their difficulty (both health of mobs and their damage to players) should be ramped up individually to compensate for higher tier specs and builds. that's all i see to it.

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

I do teaching runs in CM on a pretty regular basis. Newish players enjoy it and I get a lot of nice feedback. Dungeons aren't dead, though the 66% gold nerf certainly didn't help.