Its becoming less of a l2p issue.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Mirage laugh at that statement.

> "You pulled me out of my evade?

> Who cares, I got another 10 evades to chain against you, ez."

>

> The problem is, especially those new POF spec has so low risk high reward gameplay, look mesmer (mainly mirage), he has power build, condi build, boonspam build, evades, stealth, blocks, mobility higher than thief, screen cluttering with clone spam, oneshot burst in both power and condi.

> Seriously playing against a good mirage feels like they are cheating.

>

> Spellbreaker yeah sacrifies little damage by not running strenght, but that's compensated all by the new sb traitline. They can be countered easily at least it's something. But the 10 seconds invuln while they can attack it's too much.

>

> Thief doesn't give me much trouble unless it's really a pro player, and you can see the difference between a mediocre or pro thief. The only stupid mechanic is the deadeye stealth on dodge. Like kitten, can't be predicted nor interrupted, just the most lame mechanic in the entire game

>

> Scourge is just a braindead spamming machine, I feel like who enjoys playing scourge is probably eating while playing, he spam and meanwhile eat something watching your enemies die. Just a noob friendly spec made for noobs and handless monkeys to get kills with.

>

> Holosmith is really a cool design spec with great photon forge animations. The problem is the damage they pull off it's all worth a dodge. I was playing rev for the first time yesterday and a noob holo playing since 5 minutes as well just ganked from behind and spamming autos I was dead. I know it's my fault I die to autos, but with revenant i cant kill someone with autos that easily xD if you know what i mean, the skill ceiling between the two is so different, with rev, one mistake and you die. If you just play rev and holo for the first time, you will see how holo is crazy easier to get into and get kills with. With rev i was perma dead during 2 hours of gameplay.

>

> Soulbeast, lately another cancer spec arrived, it is basically a spellbreaker with 1500 range plus stealth plus oneshot potential. Great escape capabilities and mobility, great healing capability and nasty unblockables for super low risk high reward.

> They can run zerk marauder and being able no problem escape or winning even 2vs1s. Recently in wvw seems every soulbeast run axe off hand for that axe 5 high damage burst as well thinking they are pro by perma rooting you. And they are tanky as hell. So much skill yeah.

>

> Balance out all those things is such a big work and probably will never happens.

 

For one person it could be a lot of work, But Arena net has the resources to do this. and a team full of people. All it would take is a month tops to iron out a good portion of imbalances.

 

Agree with all of said aside from Spellbreaker. The only counter to them seems to be intense rpessure from multiple players of a broken class able to cheese through the attacks. IMO Condi revenant is best for this task, get rid of its constantly pulsing boons and trade it for a hefty bit of confusion. Only issue is the warrior never really has to swap to being on the defensive and can keep coming at you.

 

Thief never really gives me much trouble either. But I cant turn a blind eye to its backstab damage from stealth. Able to one shot. If it lacked teleports with all the stealth then thatd be fine. But stealth into steal for a easy access to someones back at any time for a 1 hit combo is just not good for the health of the game.

 

 

 

[displayname.8315]

Hmm yeah its probably a l2p issue more then ever actually. Just look at the ranks when you join a squad, the majority are really low rank. If you know how to play and the trademark lag hasn't kicked in you should never get 1-pushed... ever. Yet a lot of people die right away.

 

Like all vet's that love(d) WvW I learned by joining a guild and using voice chat. Maybe anet should do something about comm's instead of just that splash screen text no one pays attention to.

 

4.5k+ rank or something btw, mithril something or other..

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

That's just the result of there being practically no balance dedicated to WvW. It's been a long problem that the design choices are based around PvE or PvP. But the thing is in PvP, it is focused around point capture, so mechanics like stealth are balanced there. In a huge field like WvW, the balance inevitably fails.

 

And that was when WvW was still in fine shape. Now that PvP has been devalued and Anet has given up any hopes of an esport, it's pretty much all PvE design. There was never a place for people that want to PvP. Players made it happen. But after years of questionable design, those players mostly left, and with the shift to a PvE-centric game, this is the final result. This is first and foremost a PvE game, with some incidental pvp fighting. At some point in time, this might have been a game that could work itself to fit a niche for that kind of thing, but that moment has long passed, and they have made their choice.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > do you feel like your fights are decided by luck ? then its no longer l2p.

> > > but if the same people consistently can win most of their fights, then it is still l2p.

> >

> > Not at all, but I do know when im at a full disadvantage due to my class choice.

> >

> thats something completely different.

> your OP reads like the mechanics as such are more rng than everything else cause whatever you do it wont do what it is intended to do, like your being unable to CC people with your CC skills, that you cant evade with your evades etc. if that is the case than it is pure rng because you click a skill and wonder what happens.

> there being counters in the game to mechanics does not mean it is no longer l2p, that means you have to be aware of the counters. you see the warrior has up to 2x pulsing stab, the 1. one you can trigger on purpose and kite and then after 4s you can easily CC them. you know the DH can pull you while mid dodge, then you better dodge the spear itself and if you failed that get some stability or break the pull with range. you also cant dodge pulmonary impact hit, yet you can dodge most instances were it is applied.

> knowing all mechanics in the game and how people use it, will make you win most of your fights = l2p.

>

> what you critizie here tho is that you are at a disadvantage. now thats another story. because this game has group balance. wich means every profession should be more or less equally valuable to a group, maybe in a different role but valuable. the big issue we have is that WvW is not a true competitive mode, so we dont have elaborate roles that people try to fill. instead everyone just does what he sees fit and expect the developers to tailor the game around their needs. if we had for example only 2h matchups with rankings, good rewards only for winning etc. then i highly doubt there would be a role for a necro to run around solo - yet i see them daily. small scale/ havoc would be at least groups of 5-10 people as it wouldnt be efficient to do it with less. the only ones that maybe would still be efficient solo are thieves as more like a scouting and infiltration unit(maybe escorting a mesmer). but why do i see soo many other people running solo ? cause they choose to, without any specific reason within the mode , because they see it fit. thats not a big deal if they are aware that they are not efficient and expect the results to be accordingly. many still get way better results than their setup should be providing, but that is caused by ...well l2p.

>

> if this game had a 1 vs 1 arena, not custom but an official mode. then it would make sense to get some 1 vs 1 balance for that specific mode. but we dont have duel mode and i dont think it is on anets plans for the furute yet.

>

 

Im not sure how your getting anything rng related out of what im saying. When it comes to the CC issues, its that classes that deal far to much damage and has access to some of the best defenses in the game can stroll around with stability that many classes cant burn through. And for your scenario, while warrior has stability, how are you to kite the class if you cant CC it? Lets not forget that warrior has some of the best mobility in the game when it comes to its weapon sets and a evade ontop of one of them.

 

Back to the pull mechanic, again, why add something to the game to counter a supposed I-frame that awards timing? Evasion is known to counter damage / CC. Knowing all mechanics in a game while a good point, doesnt mean you will win most fights as some design decisions are truly atrocious and only sounds good on paper but doesnt work in many real time scenarios. If classes were on equal footing interms of Risk vs Reward, then yes this may apply. But as it is now, even knowing all classes mechanics doesn't mean jack squat when there overtuned for success.

 

Group balance to a degree, but i see a lot more focus on 1v1 potential thats not properly attuned for balanced group play. While WvW is not a true competitive mode it shows the imbalances in a whole new light and is why we do receive nerfs and buffs to certain abilities as some tend to overperform. The point that its not competitive doesnt mean we should allow classes to fit outside the circle of proper balance. Your right, while people who do roam with underperforming builds are a result of l2p, it doesnt really defeat the point that current game design is pushing the limit of what is l2p. Kudos to those who can do well in specific instances, but a thief that can backstab you for all your health isnt something you can really l2p against. If it was a simple l2p issue for many of these cases, we wouldnt be seeing nerfs and buffs.

 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> I think most problems OP has are more dueling /spvp problems, than blob problems. Nowhere is minstrel fb mentioned, for example. Most classes he/she plays are not blobclasses anyway. Dont get me wrong, wvw has big balance issues, mainly with populations. But when blobbing happens, sorry to say it, the best compositions and tactics win. Powercreep exists on all sides, who can play it better is another issue.

> So, this seems to me like another " 1 vs 1 is not good in wvw, pls balance classes for that purpose". Well, wvw was not really ever about that.

 

I didnt realy post all my gripes because I knew they would fall upon deaf ears and noy much would change, it was more on me expressing my feelings for the game to let out much of my frustrations. But as I only play the WvW in the game it stems from both Blob fights, roaming, and just spectating. Also, tactics not focused on being in the blob

are constantly getting nerfed. Both in rewards and in effectiveness.

 

Its not a post on 1v1, its a post on the frustrations on why classes are in such a bad spot when it comes to proper game design. Reward for Risk is not taken into account, classes and skills are also still not properly tuned to being on the same level as this new philosphy arenanet is trying to push with more damage less problems. And...Its been almost a year, why is powercreep still a thing is another question?

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Its not a strategy issue. Midway through evading a attack, you can be pulled during it. Same with attacks that are filled with evasion frames yet still possible to take damage in them.

 

This is the result of two things. One: Evade duration is shorter than the evade animation. This is ESPECIALLY true with skills. In every skill that has evade frames, the evade USUALLY begins the moment you start the animation, sometimes starts halfway through it, and rarely is somewhere in the middle... but the important part here is that it NEVER lasts the entire duration of the animation, or during pre-cast animations and after-cast delays because it would allow endless evade-frame chaining, which is something they don't want. Two: Lag. This is especially true in WvW... even if you aren't immediately identifying lag via high pings, etc, in WvW you WILL lag period. Things are not always hitting you when you think you are.

 

Yes, there are two guardian skills that can actively pull you **during** evasion... they are the only two skills in the game that do this, on any class (Hunter's Verdict and Binding Blade's secondary activation pull. This is because the skill has ALREADY hit you... the pull is just on an activation delay. If you want to not be pulled you have to evade the attack projectile, not the pull). This is absolutely a L2P issue, because you didn't evade the attack that is pulling you, the pull itself is not an attack. There are also area denial skills that can hit you if you try to evade through them, Line of Warding or Slick Shoes are examples, but skills that are MEANT to block you from going from point a to point b SHOULD behave this way. Evading should not allow you to move through an otherwise impenetrable barrier.

[SoV.5139]

You guys were quick to lobby to do away with the old bunker meta talking about how it wasn't skillful play, and this is what happened. You got a new meta that makes that meta look like a masters tourney. One shot kill power builds, stealth+reset abuse roamers, omni-blob, all basically a complete elimination of strategy and counter play.

 

Give us the old bunker meta back. It was light years ahead of whats in place now, strategy and counter play wise.

 

PVE game got much better, but the PVP modes, much worse.

[Israel.7056]

Found the problem playing renegade solo roaming.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > Its not a strategy issue. Midway through evading a attack, you can be pulled during it. Same with attacks that are filled with evasion frames yet still possible to take damage in them.

>

> This is the result of two things. One: Evade duration is shorter than the evade animation. This is ESPECIALLY true with skills. In every skill that has evade frames, the evade USUALLY begins the moment you start the animation, sometimes starts halfway through it, and rarely is somewhere in the middle... but the important part here is that it NEVER lasts the entire duration of the animation, or during pre-cast animations and after-cast delays because it would allow endless evade-frame chaining, which is something they don't want. Two: Lag. This is especially true in WvW... even if you aren't immediately identifying lag via high pings, etc, in WvW you WILL lag period. Things are not always hitting you when you think you are.

>

> Yes, there are two guardian skills that can actively pull you **during** evasion... they are the only two skills in the game that do this, on any class (Hunter's Verdict and Binding Blade's secondary activation pull. This is because the skill has ALREADY hit you... the pull is just on an activation delay. If you want to not be pulled you have to evade the attack projectile, not the pull). This is absolutely a L2P issue, because you didn't evade the attack that is pulling you, the pull itself is not an attack. There are also area denial skills that can hit you if you try to evade through them, Line of Warding or Slick Shoes are examples, but skills that are MEANT to block you from going from point a to point b SHOULD behave this way. Evading should not allow you to move through an otherwise impenetrable barrier.

 

Honestly it does feel as though evade frames dont match up as you said. With a skill like revenants sword 3, it doesnt particularly start until you hit mist, where ive still taken damage in before and came out more broken then I went in. Unless it works similarly to Scrapper hammer 3.

 

So even if I did evade the spear and it registers due to lag and still pulls you, is that classified as a l2p issue or more of a design flaw? Still confused as to why its a thing in the first place. And I can get warding skills that you cant dodge over...somewhat, literally dont understand why we cant just jump over the guardian wards(lol).

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> You guys were quick to lobby to do away with the old bunker meta talking about how it wasn't skillful play, and this is what happened. You got a new meta that makes that meta look like a masters tourney. One shot kill power builds, stealth+reset abuse roamers, omni-blob, all basically a complete elimination of strategy and counter play.

>

> Give us the old bunker meta back. It was light years ahead of whats in place now, strategy and counter play wise.

>

> PVE game got much better, but the PVP modes, much worse.

 

This person, they get it. I honestly do miss pre hot pvp. While its esports tanked(for multiple reasons...), it was still better then what it is today.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Its not a strategy issue. Midway through evading a attack, you can be pulled during it. Same with attacks that are filled with evasion frames yet still possible to take damage in them.

> >

> > This is the result of two things. One: Evade duration is shorter than the evade animation. This is ESPECIALLY true with skills. In every skill that has evade frames, the evade USUALLY begins the moment you start the animation, sometimes starts halfway through it, and rarely is somewhere in the middle... but the important part here is that it NEVER lasts the entire duration of the animation, or during pre-cast animations and after-cast delays because it would allow endless evade-frame chaining, which is something they don't want. Two: Lag. This is especially true in WvW... even if you aren't immediately identifying lag via high pings, etc, in WvW you WILL lag period. Things are not always hitting you when you think you are.

> >

> > Yes, there are two guardian skills that can actively pull you **during** evasion... they are the only two skills in the game that do this, on any class (Hunter's Verdict and Binding Blade's secondary activation pull. This is because the skill has ALREADY hit you... the pull is just on an activation delay. If you want to not be pulled you have to evade the attack projectile, not the pull). This is absolutely a L2P issue, because you didn't evade the attack that is pulling you, the pull itself is not an attack. There are also area denial skills that can hit you if you try to evade through them, Line of Warding or Slick Shoes are examples, but skills that are MEANT to block you from going from point a to point b SHOULD behave this way. Evading should not allow you to move through an otherwise impenetrable barrier.

>

> Honestly it does feel as though evade frames dont match up as you said. With a skill like revenants sword 3, it doesnt particularly start until you hit mist, where ive still taken damage in before and came out more broken then I went in. Unless it works similarly to Scrapper hammer 3.

>

> So even if I did evade the spear and it registers due to lag and still pulls you, is that classified as a l2p issue or more of a design flaw? Still confused as to why its a thing in the first place. And I can get warding skills that you cant dodge over...somewhat, literally dont understand why we cant just jump over the guardian wards(lol).

 

I mean, they are walls of light. With all effects turned up all the way they extend upwards and are NOT just lines on the ground. The evade frames not quite matching up to skill length is working as intended. It's a way of introducing counter-play to evasion heavy builds. Thief is a good example... if a daredevil is using Vault (Staff 5) it evades for the first half of the leap duration, but ends slightly before the thief lands. If it didn't, then the DD would be invulnerable for 3-4 vaults directly in a row with zero counter... vaults that do anywhere from 5k to 15k damage each. By making the evade window shorter than the skill duration, it means if you time an attack correctly it will hit the thief just as they land... make that attack a CC and you can then shut them down from spamming the skill until you're dead.

 

For any evade based build your timing has to really be spot on, and yeah lag can mean you got hit by the initial spear hit when you were trying to evade, but that's not a balance issue... it's an unfortunate side effect of an MMO, and every online game that has dodges suffers from this to some extent, even games like LoL. That said, if you DO avoid the initial spear throw or greatsword attack, then even when they activate the pull portion it won't touch you. That's ALSO not un-balanced.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> You guys were quick to lobby to do away with the old bunker meta talking about how it wasn't skillful play, and this is what happened. You got a new meta that makes that meta look like a masters tourney. One shot kill power builds, stealth+reset abuse roamers, omni-blob, all basically a complete elimination of strategy and counter play.

>

> Give us the old bunker meta back. It was light years ahead of whats in place now, strategy and counter play wise.

>

> PVE game got much better, but the PVP modes, much worse.

 

the bunker still works. ppl only dont use it. =p

[archmagus.7249]

Revealed was an effect which was used sparingly in the launch of the game by classes. In fact, the best to get revealed was to strike someone while in stealth, or face an engineer who was running utility goggles. But now revealed is pointless because it can just be removed. From the beginning they should've made revealed a "cannot be removed" effect.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> Revealed was an effect which was used sparingly in the launch of the game by classes. In fact, the best to get revealed was to strike someone while in stealth, or face an engineer who was running utility goggles. But now revealed is pointless because it can just be removed. From the beginning they should've made revealed a "cannot be removed" effect.

 

but removing it is only a random guess at where it happens

[MUDse.7623]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > do you feel like your fights are decided by luck ? then its no longer l2p.

> > > > but if the same people consistently can win most of their fights, then it is still l2p.

> > >

> > > Not at all, but I do know when im at a full disadvantage due to my class choice.

> > >

> > thats something completely different.

> > your OP reads like the mechanics as such are more rng than everything else cause whatever you do it wont do what it is intended to do, like your being unable to CC people with your CC skills, that you cant evade with your evades etc. if that is the case than it is pure rng because you click a skill and wonder what happens.

> > there being counters in the game to mechanics does not mean it is no longer l2p, that means you have to be aware of the counters. you see the warrior has up to 2x pulsing stab, the 1. one you can trigger on purpose and kite and then after 4s you can easily CC them. you know the DH can pull you while mid dodge, then you better dodge the spear itself and if you failed that get some stability or break the pull with range. you also cant dodge pulmonary impact hit, yet you can dodge most instances were it is applied.

> > knowing all mechanics in the game and how people use it, will make you win most of your fights = l2p.

> >

> > what you critizie here tho is that you are at a disadvantage. now thats another story. because this game has group balance. wich means every profession should be more or less equally valuable to a group, maybe in a different role but valuable. the big issue we have is that WvW is not a true competitive mode, so we dont have elaborate roles that people try to fill. instead everyone just does what he sees fit and expect the developers to tailor the game around their needs. if we had for example only 2h matchups with rankings, good rewards only for winning etc. then i highly doubt there would be a role for a necro to run around solo - yet i see them daily. small scale/ havoc would be at least groups of 5-10 people as it wouldnt be efficient to do it with less. the only ones that maybe would still be efficient solo are thieves as more like a scouting and infiltration unit(maybe escorting a mesmer). but why do i see soo many other people running solo ? cause they choose to, without any specific reason within the mode , because they see it fit. thats not a big deal if they are aware that they are not efficient and expect the results to be accordingly. many still get way better results than their setup should be providing, but that is caused by ...well l2p.

> >

> > if this game had a 1 vs 1 arena, not custom but an official mode. then it would make sense to get some 1 vs 1 balance for that specific mode. but we dont have duel mode and i dont think it is on anets plans for the furute yet.

> >

>

> Im not sure how your getting anything rng related out of what im saying. When it comes to the CC issues, its that classes that deal far to much damage and has access to some of the best defenses in the game can stroll around with stability that many classes cant burn through. And for your scenario, while warrior has stability, how are you to kite the class if you cant CC it? Lets not forget that warrior has some of the best mobility in the game when it comes to its weapon sets and a evade ontop of one of them.

>

> Back to the pull mechanic, again, why add something to the game to counter a supposed I-frame that awards timing? Evasion is known to counter damage / CC. Knowing all mechanics in a game while a good point, doesnt mean you will win most fights as some design decisions are truly atrocious and only sounds good on paper but doesnt work in many real time scenarios. If classes were on equal footing interms of Risk vs Reward, then yes this may apply. But as it is now, even knowing all classes mechanics doesn't mean jack squat when there overtuned for success.

>

> Group balance to a degree, but i see a lot more focus on 1v1 potential thats not properly attuned for balanced group play. While WvW is not a true competitive mode it shows the imbalances in a whole new light and is why we do receive nerfs and buffs to certain abilities as some tend to overperform. The point that its not competitive doesnt mean we should allow classes to fit outside the circle of proper balance. Your right, while people who do roam with underperforming builds are a result of l2p, it doesnt really defeat the point that current game design is pushing the limit of what is l2p. Kudos to those who can do well in specific instances, but a thief that can backstab you for all your health isnt something you can really l2p against. If it was a simple l2p issue for many of these cases, we wouldnt be seeing nerfs and buffs.

>

 

pretty simply if it is not rng, it is l2p.

there are singular builds you have an issue with, now that means probably they are better suited for the task. if they also have issues fighting each other, than that is a type of rock paper scissors and you need to l2p, if you are rock paper or scrissors and avoid the fights that you will lose.

yes warrior has mobility but they are all leaps. leaps are animation locked wich you can punish and can be evaded at the end. warriors offense is slow and telegraphed => can be kited by pretty much every one aside from maybe a necro. if the warrior didnt have so many stances etc. it would be a free kill, because every other class has an easier time appling potential damage.

as for the pull mechanic @"Sojourner.4621" explained it above. knowing the vulnerability frames in your evades is l2p.

not sure what you want to tell me with your last pragraph. in WvW we fight as a team, as a server. while a thief might be able to hit you for all your HP with a single backstab, as i said above without you yourself being a thief you have no reason to walk alone solo. in a thief vs thief being hit or not hit by the backstab is l2p. because either you have enough stealth to avoid it or your opposing thief has more stealth, than you have more mobility to avoid it. when you run in a group a thief backstabbing you is a nonissue because we have downedstate that will carry the larger number group. and again if you want to solo roam on something else than a thief, you have to be prepared for a thief and bring enough sustain so that you do not die to the inital engage out of stealth.

 

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> Revealed was an effect which was used sparingly in the launch of the game by classes. In fact, the best to get revealed was to strike someone while in stealth, or face an engineer who was running utility goggles. But now revealed is pointless because it can just be removed. From the beginning they should've made revealed a "cannot be removed" effect.

 

from the beginning they should have designed a counter to stealth differently so we wouldnt now need a skill that can remove revealed.

if we had a counter like unblockables to blocks, that would be better. for example when getting hit from stealth you get an effect that lets you see through stealth would be much better than removing stealth.

because stealth base just grants invisibility. but the counter does not just work against that but against far more and it scales. if you apply revealed on a ranger, cool he now cannot stealth anymore so what? you can hit him. apply reveal to a thief and he already cant use a class mechanic : stealth attacks, apply it to a deadeye and you further remove class mechanic because this will affect the use of malice. apply it to a deadeye with shadow arts and you disable 2/3 of the opponents build and not just the fact that they are invisible, you also counter not just for yourself but for everyone around you. when you use unblockables your other allies wont be also unblockable against your target.

but people here in forum prefer to debate in circles how we need more or less revealed / revlead removes, instead of adressing the issue that reveald itself is wich is causing the current state. they simply cant buff reveals or remove the reveal cleanse for a deadeye with the current state of reveal. if you want more reliable counter play, than we need to change the counterplay not add more of the current version because that will demand more counters to the counter etc.

[Sovereign.1093]

 

we may have gotten lucky or the enemy was not coordinated but you can have some fun if you in voip and work together and learn to get better.

 

with few, you can fight many unless they bring the blob. =p

[Hot Boy.7138]

I agree with OP almost completely. Almost everything is right on the money. There is only one thing I disagree with. I dont play necro, but I actually like how scourge is able to control an entire area. Sorta reminds me of Gaara, especially the whole sand theme, how he turns an entire landscape into sand. Forces you to fight on his playing field. Scourge does that well. And trust, it's incredible hard for me to deal with cause I play melee only, but I find it to be fun to be honest. Scourge isn't unfun to fight against. I'd say fighting against warriors truly is NOT a fun experience tho. Meta Warriors give me more trouble than any other class/build.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Yes im not invested into WvW, because as you can see, the design is flawed in many ways. I dont know my enemy servers because it literally just switched a day ago, nor do I really care much because a enemy is a enemy, not like tactics change up much in my bracket, everyone just blobs around with the occasional power creeped roamers. Used to be hardcore about PvP back then but now im casual cause balance and class design has been in a full downward spiral.

 

"It's not L2P issues, i'm not invested in the gamemode, have no idea what's going on I'm just here throwing a tantrum because I do neither plays nor counterplays!". I just do my own thing and expect it to work, and if it doesn't the game is counterintuitive !!!

 

Aren't you the core engi complaining that their build isn't effective enough in zergs while also saying meta is "too boring, easy and awful".

 

I mean you actually say DODGE isn't strong enough OMEGALUL. ITT : Many L2P issues and virtually no design issues.

[Israel.7056]

Not only does he do his own thing and expect it to work but when it doesn't work he doesn't even seem try to figure out why it doesn't work and what he can do to fix the problem. Posts like this make me laugh but also feel pessimistic about the future of this game because of players like this. OP there is little hope for you if you aren't even willing to consider how you can make changes to be more effective. If you or anyone else expects to just be able to take any build for any class into WvW and be useful in any scenario you find yourself in you are destined to be frustrated. If you honestly think you're going to be able to effectively roam on a renegade when most roamers are almost hard counters to rev in general and renegade in particular you are destined to be frustrated. The most common roamer builds at present as far as i can tell are: mirage, thief, soulbeast, spellbreaker. If your build cannot deal with any or all of these it's a bad build for roaming period.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > Its not a strategy issue. Midway through evading a attack, you can be pulled during it. Same with attacks that are filled with evasion frames yet still possible to take damage in them.

> > >

> > > This is the result of two things. One: Evade duration is shorter than the evade animation. This is ESPECIALLY true with skills. In every skill that has evade frames, the evade USUALLY begins the moment you start the animation, sometimes starts halfway through it, and rarely is somewhere in the middle... but the important part here is that it NEVER lasts the entire duration of the animation, or during pre-cast animations and after-cast delays because it would allow endless evade-frame chaining, which is something they don't want. Two: Lag. This is especially true in WvW... even if you aren't immediately identifying lag via high pings, etc, in WvW you WILL lag period. Things are not always hitting you when you think you are.

> > >

> > > Yes, there are two guardian skills that can actively pull you **during** evasion... they are the only two skills in the game that do this, on any class (Hunter's Verdict and Binding Blade's secondary activation pull. This is because the skill has ALREADY hit you... the pull is just on an activation delay. If you want to not be pulled you have to evade the attack projectile, not the pull). This is absolutely a L2P issue, because you didn't evade the attack that is pulling you, the pull itself is not an attack. There are also area denial skills that can hit you if you try to evade through them, Line of Warding or Slick Shoes are examples, but skills that are MEANT to block you from going from point a to point b SHOULD behave this way. Evading should not allow you to move through an otherwise impenetrable barrier.

> >

> > Honestly it does feel as though evade frames dont match up as you said. With a skill like revenants sword 3, it doesnt particularly start until you hit mist, where ive still taken damage in before and came out more broken then I went in. Unless it works similarly to Scrapper hammer 3.

> >

> > So even if I did evade the spear and it registers due to lag and still pulls you, is that classified as a l2p issue or more of a design flaw? Still confused as to why its a thing in the first place. And I can get warding skills that you cant dodge over...somewhat, literally dont understand why we cant just jump over the guardian wards(lol).

>

> I mean, they are walls of light. With all effects turned up all the way they extend upwards and are NOT just lines on the ground. The evade frames not quite matching up to skill length is working as intended. It's a way of introducing counter-play to evasion heavy builds. Thief is a good example... if a daredevil is using Vault (Staff 5) it evades for the first half of the leap duration, but ends slightly before the thief lands. If it didn't, then the DD would be invulnerable for 3-4 vaults directly in a row with zero counter... vaults that do anywhere from 5k to 15k damage each. By making the evade window shorter than the skill duration, it means if you time an attack correctly it will hit the thief just as they land... make that attack a CC and you can then shut them down from spamming the skill until you're dead.

>

> For any evade based build your timing has to really be spot on, and yeah lag can mean you got hit by the initial spear hit when you were trying to evade, but that's not a balance issue... it's an unfortunate side effect of an MMO, and every online game that has dodges suffers from this to some extent, even games like LoL. That said, if you DO avoid the initial spear throw or greatsword attack, then even when they activate the pull portion it won't touch you. That's ALSO not un-balanced.

 

With all the effects turned up all the way, its a lag fest lol. I actually gain spidey senses to know when a zerg is hiding cause my fps dis out of no where. For me all I see is a line on the ground, its identifiable, but wasnt aware there was more to it other then that.

 

While I can understand that for vault since it was a spammable skill that did loads of damage, for a skill that has you turned into mist I cant say I do. If thats the case I would like to visually see when I am vulnerable instead of just seeing myself die continuously on its skill use.

 

Not going on about the pulls being balanced or unbalanced, im just questioning why add and keep it in the game if it doesnt function properly due to lag and counters a mechanic known to give a players invincibility to deal with attacks?

[Etheri.5406]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > Its not a strategy issue. Midway through evading a attack, you can be pulled during it. Same with attacks that are filled with evasion frames yet still possible to take damage in them.

> > > >

> > > > This is the result of two things. One: Evade duration is shorter than the evade animation. This is ESPECIALLY true with skills. In every skill that has evade frames, the evade USUALLY begins the moment you start the animation, sometimes starts halfway through it, and rarely is somewhere in the middle... but the important part here is that it NEVER lasts the entire duration of the animation, or during pre-cast animations and after-cast delays because it would allow endless evade-frame chaining, which is something they don't want. Two: Lag. This is especially true in WvW... even if you aren't immediately identifying lag via high pings, etc, in WvW you WILL lag period. Things are not always hitting you when you think you are.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, there are two guardian skills that can actively pull you **during** evasion... they are the only two skills in the game that do this, on any class (Hunter's Verdict and Binding Blade's secondary activation pull. This is because the skill has ALREADY hit you... the pull is just on an activation delay. If you want to not be pulled you have to evade the attack projectile, not the pull). This is absolutely a L2P issue, because you didn't evade the attack that is pulling you, the pull itself is not an attack. There are also area denial skills that can hit you if you try to evade through them, Line of Warding or Slick Shoes are examples, but skills that are MEANT to block you from going from point a to point b SHOULD behave this way. Evading should not allow you to move through an otherwise impenetrable barrier.

> > >

> > > Honestly it does feel as though evade frames dont match up as you said. With a skill like revenants sword 3, it doesnt particularly start until you hit mist, where ive still taken damage in before and came out more broken then I went in. Unless it works similarly to Scrapper hammer 3.

> > >

> > > So even if I did evade the spear and it registers due to lag and still pulls you, is that classified as a l2p issue or more of a design flaw? Still confused as to why its a thing in the first place. And I can get warding skills that you cant dodge over...somewhat, literally dont understand why we cant just jump over the guardian wards(lol).

> >

> > I mean, they are walls of light. With all effects turned up all the way they extend upwards and are NOT just lines on the ground. The evade frames not quite matching up to skill length is working as intended. It's a way of introducing counter-play to evasion heavy builds. Thief is a good example... if a daredevil is using Vault (Staff 5) it evades for the first half of the leap duration, but ends slightly before the thief lands. If it didn't, then the DD would be invulnerable for 3-4 vaults directly in a row with zero counter... vaults that do anywhere from 5k to 15k damage each. By making the evade window shorter than the skill duration, it means if you time an attack correctly it will hit the thief just as they land... make that attack a CC and you can then shut them down from spamming the skill until you're dead.

> >

> > For any evade based build your timing has to really be spot on, and yeah lag can mean you got hit by the initial spear hit when you were trying to evade, but that's not a balance issue... it's an unfortunate side effect of an MMO, and every online game that has dodges suffers from this to some extent, even games like LoL. That said, if you DO avoid the initial spear throw or greatsword attack, then even when they activate the pull portion it won't touch you. That's ALSO not un-balanced.

>

> With all the effects turned up all the way, its a lag fest lol. I actually gain spidey senses to know when a zerg is hiding cause my fps dis out of no where. For me all I see is a line on the ground, its identifiable, but wasnt aware there was more to it other then that.

>

> While I can understand that for vault since it was a spammable skill that did loads of damage, for a skill that has you turned into mist I cant say I do. If thats the case I would like to visually see when I am vulnerable instead of just seeing myself die continuously on its skill use.

>

> Not going on about the pulls being balanced or unbalanced, im just questioning why add and keep it in the game if it doesnt function properly due to lag and counters a mechanic known to give a players invincibility to deal with attacks?

 

It's not LAG. It's a two-part pull, where first you get chained (GS, spear on DH F1, ...). You must dodge this part. If you're chained, dodging won't help you as they can pull you out. Dodge doesn't make you invulnerable. There are effects which will continue to stop you. Each of these pulls are DODGABLE as long as you know WHEN to dodge. Dodging randomly or wrongly then throwing a tantrum? L2P issue.

 

Everything here is still L2P issues, regardless of the title.

 

Virtually every skill which is an "evade" can be interrupted both at the start and the end of the animation. Most of them also mid-animation by WARDS, previously-applied effects and unblockable effects (i.e. shocking aura). You can stop rev sword 3 by dropping fear mark on yourself or using any other CC's during the start of the animation. Things like walking over wards and applying shocking aura work at almost any point and will CC the rev interrupting the skill.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

 

>

> pretty simply if it is not rng, it is l2p.

> there are singular builds you have an issue with, now that means probably they are better suited for the task. if they also have issues fighting each other, than that is a type of rock paper scissors and you need to l2p, if you are rock paper or scrissors and avoid the fights that you will lose.

> yes warrior has mobility but they are all leaps. leaps are animation locked wich you can punish and can be evaded at the end. warriors offense is slow and telegraphed => can be kited by pretty much every one aside from maybe a necro. if the warrior didnt have so many stances etc. it would be a free kill, because every other class has an easier time appling potential damage.

> as for the pull mechanic @"Sojourner.4621" explained it above. knowing the vulnerability frames in your evades is l2p.

> not sure what you want to tell me with your last pragraph. in WvW we fight as a team, as a server. while a thief might be able to hit you for all your HP with a single backstab, as i said above without you yourself being a thief you have no reason to walk alone solo. in a thief vs thief being hit or not hit by the backstab is l2p. because either you have enough stealth to avoid it or your opposing thief has more stealth, than you have more mobility to avoid it. when you run in a group a thief backstabbing you is a nonissue because we have downedstate that will carry the larger number group. and again if you want to solo roam on something else than a thief, you have to be prepared for a thief and bring enough sustain so that you do not die to the inital engage out of stealth.

>

 

That isnt particularly true. As there are times where things are overtuned and need to be brought down.

Example: PowerCreeped classes.

 

Singular builds, mostly due to how its designed. A class with high mobility, high damage, better survivability then most others, and amazing cleave damage. (Spellbreaker)

Good design would call for a sacrifice to defenses for more power, a sacrifice to mobility for more defense, sadly this takes the cake for all 3 categories. Its mobility being leaps doesnt mean much either, it tracks, theres no bullfighting technique to a warriors mobility. You may say evade the intiital rush, doing so gives them ample enough time to already be ready to hit you again as the evade animation is longer then there attacking animation and the dodge effect doesnt hold for the entire animation of the dodge. Warriors offense is also not slow.

 

Not sure I can agree with that logic on if you are not a thief you cant roam solo. It was a thing before with mostly any class, but now theres been to many changes to the game that can allow for a full health backstab. Are these changes healthy? Not in any way. Especially when theres no counterplay to it. There isnt a pulsing reveal status classes have, theres nothing to tell them that a stealthed target is in the vicinity unless the thief messes up and reveals itself. With that design in mind, why make it so that there potential to down someone in 1 low effort attack with no time to respond to it? There is no sustain to being downed in 1 hit btw.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

>

>

> we may have gotten lucky or the enemy was not coordinated but you can have some fun if you in voip and work together and learn to get better.

>

> with few, you can fight many unless they bring the blob. =p

 

God that is so much AOE! I dont think it was luck, they looked uncoordinated for sure but there just so much support going on in this video that I dont think they could have really done much of anything against you guys. Once I saw 10000 barrier on you I had to shake my head. Its cool what can be achieved in a group but theres a point where you gotta ask, is this to much for PvP. It looks like thins needed for PvE but so unhealthy since things are just stand on this field and spam to your hearts content. I honestly felt bad for the condi players. Seeing them pull off all those conditions and having no effects has to be a heartbreaking experience.

 

But when that zerg came in...look at all that clutter on the ground lol. It was insane when it was just you few but when thats amplified to a large ton of players, it just doesnt look enjoyable. Kudos to you guys for surviving for a long fight!

[Aeolus.3615]

@iKeostuKen.2738 , theres never a "thats so much AOE", that's the mandatory way to play this game. XD

 

 

Reason classes with aoe spam are the only ones to fit on WvW metas.

 

#badclassdesign

 

 

 

 

 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > Yes im not invested into WvW, because as you can see, the design is flawed in many ways. I dont know my enemy servers because it literally just switched a day ago, nor do I really care much because a enemy is a enemy, not like tactics change up much in my bracket, everyone just blobs around with the occasional power creeped roamers. Used to be hardcore about PvP back then but now im casual cause balance and class design has been in a full downward spiral.

>

> "It's not L2P issues, i'm not invested in the gamemode, have no idea what's going on I'm just here throwing a tantrum because I do neither plays nor counterplays!". I just do my own thing and expect it to work, and if it doesn't the game is counterintuitive !!!

>

> Aren't you the core engi complaining that their build isn't effective enough in zergs while also saying meta is "too boring, easy and awful".

>

> I mean you actually say DODGE isn't strong enough OMEGALUL. ITT : Many L2P issues and virtually no design issues.

 

Reading is a skill you have yet to master. "Less of a l2p issue" Im not claiming that experience isnt valuable in this game, but changes are making it so even though you do have knowledge it isnt helpful as classes are being overtuned into a state where they are just to effective while not having to sacrifice anything to gain those results. I do play core engineer, but the thing you are refering to is me saying "Winds of Disenchantment does not need to block projectiles". Which I still standby as having a boon negation zone on a large radius on a field is enough for it. Its another example of a overtuned ability.

 

Never said dodge isnt strong enough, Im saying, why create a mechanic that counters dodge it when it wasnt necessary.