iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"revox.8273" said: > > > all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard > > > just link your build for wvw and what gear u use > > > everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhaqYjXwkLQ7FLbG042/eACbXui63tzdvB-j1BFABFq+jSKFA4BAgkyua2fINdAQcBAlgAA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXFWQVq0AoASg/RMFfR1L4DGBA-jVyFQBH7IAAM1fQwDAAAHCAcp8zjKBL5+DcQPw60EAA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnXVnE8Cl8itrAerAUtgFHBL/42cnuNNgLQHgJAM5qcl48uA-j1haABboFQw9HsUTAAKDMV9HH1BUmSPA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBHhF6kjGobTs2GwcTgeTskLYQBgGwKgaLsGaWxXxt4YE-jFCFwAoU/Jj+AIKBB8EAGcIAMcCAat/ASlfAA-w > > > > From what I can remember are the most used sets. Engineer for Zergs. Renegade for mix of roam and zerging. Ranger just roaming. Reaper for anything. > > > > For the rest. > > Mesmer, been to long since i played. Was condi in the past but it was to easy that I felt bad for using it. > > Warrior, Made it as a joke, was for old school Rifle/GS action, it was pretty fun. > > Gaurdian and Firebrand, standard metabattle support. Using Mace/Shield and Staff. > > Elementalist, Just went full burst since celestials was to draining to get back then. Around HoT. Got Weaver, still burst. > > did you make those trait/skill/gear choices etc. because you think they are optimal or because you like them? > for example your reapers spite traitline grandmaster trait, why did you choose close to death over spiteful spirit? Choices were due to me being to lazy to make maruaders and lack of gold to fund the process of getting it. And its a bit of both. I like the damage, and I dont need that much defense because I have sort of a 2nd health bar to soak up extra damage. Focus fire = my being dead unless I can close that distance. If I see that im fighting more condition builds or need to bump up my survivability I use Staff instead of GS. Why Close to Death over S.S, More of a playstyle preference, I rarely drop shroud ontop of my target as I begin the fight and usually come in with it from a distance if needed. I usually pop shroud - > Get in as close as possible, Pop 3, 3 again to get fear off and possibly get rid of some stability, 5, 4 and then 2 if they survived. Usually they are down by shroud 4. If not I get some frost aura to help out as they begin to counter burst. Keep in mind this is for rushing in with the head of a blob. Only issue I actually have with it is pathing with shroud 2, Doesnt track a lot of the time and sometimes lags a second behind the target. Sorry just noticed I only answered for reaper. When it came to the other classes, it was more about my playstyle and interests with the abilities used. Optimization came later as I worked to fit in my favorite style of play into something that worked and gave results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"revox.8273" said: > > > all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard > > > just link your build for wvw and what gear u use > > > everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhaqYjXwkLQ7FLbG042/eACbXui63tzdvB-j1BFABFq+jSKFA4BAgkyua2fINdAQcBAlgAA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXFWQVq0AoASg/RMFfR1L4DGBA-jVyFQBH7IAAM1fQwDAAAHCAcp8zjKBL5+DcQPw60EAA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnXVnE8Cl8itrAerAUtgFHBL/42cnuNNgLQHgJAM5qcl48uA-j1haABboFQw9HsUTAAKDMV9HH1BUmSPA-w > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBHhF6kjGobTs2GwcTgeTskLYQBgGwKgaLsGaWxXxt4YE-jFCFwAoU/Jj+AIKBB8EAGcIAMcCAat/ASlfAA-w > > > > From what I can remember are the most used sets. Engineer for Zergs. Renegade for mix of roam and zerging. Ranger just roaming. Reaper for anything. > > > > For the rest. > > Mesmer, been to long since i played. Was condi in the past but it was to easy that I felt bad for using it. > > Warrior, Made it as a joke, was for old school Rifle/GS action, it was pretty fun. > > Gaurdian and Firebrand, standard metabattle support. Using Mace/Shield and Staff. > > Elementalist, Just went full burst since celestials was to draining to get back then. Around HoT. Got Weaver, still burst. > > I don't have PoF so I can't comment much on Renegade but I'm curious about those Renegade runes that add ferocity. This appears to be a condi build and there's not much ferocity stacked in general, so I'm not really sure why it'd be picked. > > Your engi build is not very good, for anything really. Turrets are single target and last about 0.05 seconds in a Zerg. Zergs need area of effect. You'd be better off diving in the middle of them and using thumper turret though I don't recommend that either. Explosives is a wasted trait line since Mortar damage is very low and there is massive projectile hate. It's a support kit at best. Rifle is poor for similar reasons though as core Engi, you can't really do anything about it. The only useful things you bring are water fields and the tool kit pull, but you're not taking the toolkit trait. And there's essentially no condi clear because no alchemy. And full zerker with little mobility and only 1 passive stunbreak. If someone throws up a reflect field, it's possible you'll end up doing negative damage (ie, reflect it back at your team). And this has nothing to do with the expansions or balance. It would have never been good. > > It just doesn't do enough to help the group. You could, say take lock-on instead of takedown round. Rocket boots could help you reposition yourself and blast water fields, since you surely won't be getting stability from any group. > > But there's a lot of things that could be done for them to work well in small groups. But you really have to think of maximizing group utility, or otherwise you're stuck with a 1v1 build, and it doesn't really work for that either. Though if you swap for rocket boots and static discharge, as well as some marauder gear, you could have a workable roam build. I mean, you'll at least have some degree of fun and success with it. > > Now, truth be told, Core Engi, (or really any Engi) isn't that great for zergs compared to the other meta classes. Heck, even eles that bring much more group utilities have been phased out; it's a pretty stupid meta and I'm not really sure who got the bright idea that Guardians should be able to do anything support related. There really isn't much room for innovation because of this, and added to the fact that the game has been aging (and in terms of balance, dying) that means that most options have already been tried, and one isn't adding anything new by straying off the beaten path. > > I mean, I didn't even buy PoF, so I'm naturally out of the meta. I just ended up having to stick with what works and that's mostly hammer rev and sometimes I can even kill people in 1v1/small scale fights. That doesn't mean hammer rev is good for solo; that just means a lot of players are clueless. But hey, at this rate, it's not about being good, but rather about being marginally less bad than other people. Renegade runes was more of a last second choice. Not because I looked through other options but because I wanted to rush and get into WvW again with a new class. Would have changed them later but found out it works so I kept them. Could something be slotted over them, ofc. That engineer build is more of a all around type. Mortar for group focus, and never used the turret unless I needed extra dps. It was mostly taken for static discharge dps and if I needed more aoe pressure I slapped on rocket turret. I dont only use it for zergs but for support in roaming small groups that happen to want to take a camp or tower. If I want to support in a zerg I swap the alchemy line for explosion and pull out a elixir gun for condition cleanses. Still works good enough to burst down targets that fall off groups or apply some pressure when needed on rezzing targets. Tool kit is mostly for defense since magnet pull for me is bugged for strange reasons and as another ability for static discharge. (It has a Tendancy to pull the target halfway). That build is mostly for ranged dps support in zergs and smaller groups and If i knew I was going to be roaming solo then thats where I go full condi/stealth scrapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"shiri.4257" said: > Wait...the broken part of the suicide zoning dome in your eyes is the projectile block? Are you one of those SB that drops winds on the lord to stop the meteors and npc guards from hitting you? No he wants to 1v1 spellbreakers on a rifle engi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > Wait...the broken part of the suicide zoning dome in your eyes is the projectile block? Are you one of those SB that drops winds on the lord to stop the meteors and npc guards from hitting you? > > No he wants to 1v1 spellbreakers on a rifle engi. Would prefer not to, but the class being in the state it is in attracts a lot of people to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > pretty simply if it is not rng, it is l2p. > > there are singular builds you have an issue with, now that means probably they are better suited for the task. if they also have issues fighting each other, than that is a type of rock paper scissors and you need to l2p, if you are rock paper or scrissors and avoid the fights that you will lose. > > yes warrior has mobility but they are all leaps. leaps are animation locked wich you can punish and can be evaded at the end. warriors offense is slow and telegraphed => can be kited by pretty much every one aside from maybe a necro. if the warrior didnt have so many stances etc. it would be a free kill, because every other class has an easier time appling potential damage. > > as for the pull mechanic @"Sojourner.4621" explained it above. knowing the vulnerability frames in your evades is l2p. > > not sure what you want to tell me with your last pragraph. in WvW we fight as a team, as a server. while a thief might be able to hit you for all your HP with a single backstab, as i said above without you yourself being a thief you have no reason to walk alone solo. in a thief vs thief being hit or not hit by the backstab is l2p. because either you have enough stealth to avoid it or your opposing thief has more stealth, than you have more mobility to avoid it. when you run in a group a thief backstabbing you is a nonissue because we have downedstate that will carry the larger number group. and again if you want to solo roam on something else than a thief, you have to be prepared for a thief and bring enough sustain so that you do not die to the inital engage out of stealth. > > > > That isnt particularly true. As there are times where things are overtuned and need to be brought down. > Example: PowerCreeped classes. > > Singular builds, mostly due to how its designed. A class with high mobility, high damage, better survivability then most others, and amazing cleave damage. (Spellbreaker) > Good design would call for a sacrifice to defenses for more power, a sacrifice to mobility for more defense, sadly this takes the cake for all 3 categories. Its mobility being leaps doesnt mean much either, it tracks, theres no bullfighting technique to a warriors mobility. You may say evade the intiital rush, doing so gives them ample enough time to already be ready to hit you again as the evade animation is longer then there attacking animation and the dodge effect doesnt hold for the entire animation of the dodge. Warriors offense is also not slow. > > Not sure I can agree with that logic on if you are not a thief you cant roam solo. It was a thing before with mostly any class, but now theres been to many changes to the game that can allow for a full health backstab. Are these changes healthy? Not in any way. Especially when theres no counterplay to it. There isnt a pulsing reveal status classes have, theres nothing to tell them that a stealthed target is in the vicinity unless the thief messes up and reveals itself. With that design in mind, why make it so that there potential to down someone in 1 low effort attack with no time to respond to it? There is no sustain to being downed in 1 hit btw. Soulbeasts are almost better roamers than thieves atm, as are mesmers. Both can also stealth and one shot, though the Soulbeast version requires a bit more set-up to do. Spellbreaker is incredibly strong in solo roaming, as is just core warrior. Reaper can solo roam reasonably, Scrapper is actually pretty strong as a solo roamer, Sword/Dagger evasion Weaver can roam, I've done plenty of roaming as a Power Herald AND a Power Renegade with some success... in fact the only class I never roam on is Guardian, but DH would manage it fine if it wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. /bow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > /bow It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > /bow > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > Have fun! Very true. The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > > > /bow > > > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > > Have fun! > > Very true. > The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > > It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. that depends on how inefficient the build is :) i dunno if you know that species of people one can run into, that neither have sustain nor deal any damage. i am not sure how people can build something like that, what their intention with that build is, but i have seen it plenty and i am not sure if competence would help them win with such a build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > > > > > /bow > > > > > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > > > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > > > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > > > Have fun! > > > > Very true. > > The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > > > > It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. > > that depends on how inefficient the build is :) > i dunno if you know that species of people one can run into, that neither have sustain nor deal any damage. i am not sure how people can build something like that, what their intention with that build is, but i have seen it plenty and i am not sure if competence would help them win with such a build Thats a good thing about a made up build vs cookie cutter...made up ones you know better, how it works, rotations and such so its easier to become skilled with it as it was built by you personally. You know it more inside and out. Players that do good with these builds are awesome. Where they lack in optimization, they excel elsewhere imo. Games are about fun. If its fun to run cookie cutter then have at er', hjust dont act superior to others who have crafted their own builds AND can do fairly well with it. Likewise is true too...don't act superior vs meta users as well if you use a crafted build. As long as no cheating/hacking or toxicity happens, its all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > > > > > /bow > > > > > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > > > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > > > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > > > Have fun! > > > > Very true. > > The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > > > > It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. > > that depends on how inefficient the build is :) > i dunno if you know that species of people one can run into, that neither have sustain nor deal any damage. i am not sure how people can build something like that, what their intention with that build is, but i have seen it plenty and i am not sure if competence would help them win with such a build Having wondered this myself, I installed shadowplay. A surprising number of players spend whole fights attacking the ground slightly ahead of their own feet. Tab is hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > > > > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > > > > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > > > > > > > /bow > > > > > > > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > > > > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > > > > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > > > > Have fun! > > > > > > Very true. > > > The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > > > > > > It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. > > > > that depends on how inefficient the build is :) > > i dunno if you know that species of people one can run into, that neither have sustain nor deal any damage. i am not sure how people can build something like that, what their intention with that build is, but i have seen it plenty and i am not sure if competence would help them win with such a build > > Having wondered this myself, I installed shadowplay. A surprising number of players spend whole fights attacking the ground slightly ahead of their own feet. > > Tab is hard >> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: >> Thats a good thing about a made up build vs cookie cutter...made up ones you know better, how it works, rotations and such so its easier to become skilled with it as it was built by you personally. You know it more inside and out. Players that do good with these builds are awesome. Where they lack in optimization, they excel elsewhere imo Mmm nah. Optimized builds are optimized. I'll run goofy stuff myself, surprise is a factor in combat after all. But I know it's goofy, and once (the smart opponent) is fooled once, that's it. Then, I'm just running a build that will get me owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There lies the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and no actually. It is possible that a non meta build (aka fun/working build) can outperform better than meta builds. I have proven this many times. Heck, there was even a build I made (no wheres near meta) for scrapper way back that was DPS, yet it out bunkered the "bunker meta" PvP had back in S1 or S2 (i cant remember which season). I have never seen anything remotely close to it. Got asked about my build all the time. Could hold off 2-3 attackers, and beat 2 "bunker" players on the same node. Even after bunker meta was destroyed I still rocked 3v1's in PvP and WvW. Only condi reapers could do anything to me. (god I hated that spin to win combo). > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, I have thoerycrafted many builds. Some ended up meta, some not so much (most of those that made it into meta were way back when like shoutbow warrior for example). Sites like metabattle will upvote any build that can work as long as someone popular/well known puts it up (they even have a rating value to reflect this., where its deemed worthy despite the community not testing it themselves). > > > > > > > > > > > > I apologize for ranting, however when someone states in any way/shape/form that no builds are more optimal than the holy meta, I have to disagree to an extent. While not all "fun/working" builds are "optimized and best", doesnt mean non meta cannot out perform meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anywho, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Im out. > > > > > > > > > > > > /bow > > > > > > > > > > It is one thing to make a build, player skill is a different story altogether. Take a look at pve, for example. People copy SC builds. Do they all get 38k dps? No. > > > > > Same goes with wvw and pvp. Meta builds are supposed to be the most efficient at what they do,in the hand of a player who knows what he is doing. While i wholeheartedly agree with you that some builds may be different and great to use (In the hands of a skilled player), I disagree with the whole "nerf this nerf that nerf everything but my own, self made build which doesnt really cut it anymore plus my skill may be mediocre" mentality. > > > > > Your rant is ground for good discussion, and thats healthy as far as i know. > > > > > Have fun! > > > > > > > > Very true. > > > > The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > > > > > > > > It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. > > > > > > that depends on how inefficient the build is :) > > > i dunno if you know that species of people one can run into, that neither have sustain nor deal any damage. i am not sure how people can build something like that, what their intention with that build is, but i have seen it plenty and i am not sure if competence would help them win with such a build > > > > Having wondered this myself, I installed shadowplay. A surprising number of players spend whole fights attacking the ground slightly ahead of their own feet. > > > > Tab is hard > > >> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > >> Thats a good thing about a made up build vs cookie cutter...made up ones you know better, how it works, rotations and such so its easier to become skilled with it as it was built by you personally. You know it more inside and out. Players that do good with these builds are awesome. Where they lack in optimization, they excel elsewhere imo > > Mmm nah. > Optimized builds are optimized. > I'll run goofy stuff myself, surprise is a factor in combat after all. But I know it's goofy, and once (the smart opponent) is fooled once, that's it. Then, I'm just running a build that will get me owned. Then how to explain all the people I beat with a non optimized build? xD esp those that keep trying me w/o success, those are the best people. Ill give them points for determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > Then how to explain all the people I beat with a non optimized build? xD > > esp those that keep trying me w/o success, those are the best people. Ill give them points for determination. >> @"LetoII.3782" said: >> The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. >> >> It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > Then how to explain all the people I beat with a non optimized build? xD > > > > esp those that keep trying me w/o success, those are the best people. Ill give them points for determination. > > >> @"LetoII.3782" said: > > >> The large majority of fights can be carried by competence in gw2, as the number of incompetents is high. > >> > >> It's only the minority of otherwise balanced fights where build inefficiency becomes a factor. > > Excuse my ignorance here, however which applies to my scenario? Cant tell if im being roasted or if the said player is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Dude, I've never seen you play. Who you're fighting, what build you're using, if you're being honest... All undetermined variables. How could I make a summation on a few forum claims? But if you're winning with a whatever build it's a combination of surprise and skill, opponents dependant. https://youtu.be/Pj-qBUWOYfE/t=0m9s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > Dude, I've never seen you play. > > Who you're fighting, what build you're using, if you're being honest... All undetermined variables. How could I make a summation on a few forum claims? > > But if you're winning with a whatever build it's a combination of surprise and skill, opponents dependant. > Hard to tell sometimes in forums as many people tend to assume right away and tend to go for the throat. I like to think if it as surprise. While I do play DPS mirage, I dont play with sword, EM or mantra stun. I actually play with DPS axe which seemingly tends to surprise people. I also don't exactly play like a one shot (I dont do the GS rotation for it), i prefer numerous smaller bursts. Really puts some skill behind it (I maybe one shotted 2 people. One was on a cata so it was easy and one was a DE who missed their burst and was super close to me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. > > Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. **^^^^** So much this. It gets old hearing complaints about their build not being able to beat _____. I enjoy sword dagger weaver. I know I'm going to struggle against a stun lock or power mirage, and against deadeyes. (Well to be truthful I struggle mightily, but each time I do a little better) It just means I avoid them, or know ahead, I am going to die. Any time I get them to disengage, I figure it's a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. > > Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. Basically nothing matches up well against a competent condi mirage - especially with dodge sigils/runes/food. It's an unwinnable fight if the mirage isn't completely braindead. It's just broken in 1v1. The best you can hope to do is escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. > > > > Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. > > Basically nothing matches up well against a competent condi mirage - especially with dodge sigils/runes/food. It's an unwinnable fight if the mirage isn't completely braindead. It's just broken in 1v1. The best you can hope to do is escape. now now you either picture them stronger than they are or easier to play than they are. i see plenty of dead condi mirages..they cant be all braindead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. > > > > Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. > > Basically nothing matches up well against a competent condi mirage - especially with dodge sigils/runes/food. It's an unwinnable fight if the mirage isn't completely braindead. It's just broken in 1v1. The best you can hope to do is escape. I dunno...Generally I seem to do well vs them. I dont have a perfect win rate against them, however ive won the majority of my fights. Power Axe/torch + GS mirage (No EM, no sword, no mantra). GS ambush clears clones fast and gives me a high # of stacks of might. As long as I avoid the bigger condi bursts (as my cleanses are poop) then im golden. Ive also seen weavers wreck condi mirages. Seen a few druids as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > You kinda just gotta accept that almost regardless of what you pick there's always some builds you're heavily disadvantaged against 1v1. Like I avoid 1v1s with condi mirages whenever possible because in my experience Rev just doesn't match up well against it. That isn't to say it's an impossible match, it's just a heavily disadvantaged one. > > > > > > Now here's the issue: Say that you're planning on solo roaming and you know ahead of time that you're likely to run into a ton of condi mirages. Do you bring a rev? Eh maybe not. If you do bring a rev you need to accept ahead of time that you've really got your work cut out for you. Doesn't mean you can't win fights. Just means it's probably gonna be an uphill battle. > > > > Basically nothing matches up well against a competent condi mirage - especially with dodge sigils/runes/food. It's an unwinnable fight if the mirage isn't completely braindead. It's just broken in 1v1. The best you can hope to do is escape. > > I dunno...Generally I seem to do well vs them. I dont have a perfect win rate against them, however ive won the majority of my fights. Power Axe/torch + GS mirage (No EM, no sword, no mantra). GS ambush clears clones fast and gives me a high # of stacks of might. As long as I avoid the bigger condi bursts (as my cleanses are poop) then im golden. > > Ive also seen weavers wreck condi mirages. Seen a few druids as well. I'm not sure showing that condi mirages can be beaten by other mesmers disproves the point. I personally have never beaten a mirage in a 1v1, if they can't beat me quickly they just stealth/blink away and come back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 When they boost vanilla specs like specter/dagger ele? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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