Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > > > There has to be a fine balance overall, perhaps some episodes in living world should not just be "here is a new map". > > I haven’t seen any maps that are “here is a new map”. There’s always been plenty to do. The only downside is that eventually those things get exhausted once you’ve gotten all of the achievements and new rewards. > > Istan has as much “dead space” as Kourna except it has a farm that’s rewarding. You took me quite literally there. I was talking about LWS3+4 have all been brand new maps at each episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyger.1637 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Portal Scrolls would be a nice fix (for HoT maps as well). The flipside of the larger maps is higher waypoint costs but anything that increases traffic is a boon. There's the Guild Portal which could and should have transit links to the entry parts of all PoF maps (and HoT maps) to compensate for the fact that your guild hall might be based in the 'wrong' expansion and to help funnel players to PoF maps and maybe even HoT maps, Dry Top and Silverwastes too. There's already a link to the Aerodrome, Lion's Arch and the PvP lobby despite the fact you can get to PvP from anywhere via the interface (although I suspect that the portal doesn't go to HoT or PoF to stop players without the expansions from getting to expansion maps). Not everyone has the Lily of the Elon pass, not everyone has changed Guild Halls to Windswept Haven and both the Hall and the Griffon Sanctuary fastport take you to Vabbi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch.6507 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 This weekend might have been a bad choice to try and do those maps, what with the "Boss Blitz Challenge" and all. While not completely to blame, I am sure it had an effect on a decent amount of people playing on maps other than DR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! > > Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. Well the thing is that players say they want rewards but what they really mean is that they want something to make gold off of. They’ll then farm the kitten out of it while driving the prices of drops down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I go through this on occasion. Sometimes I need to do a dungeon run, and there's just nobody around to do them. Really, there's only 3 options open to you: (1): Tag up. A proper commander tag helps out a lot with gathering people. (2): Wait around forever for a chance to get lucky. Someone usually comes along eventually. (3): Git reel gud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > > > While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! > > > > Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. > > Well the thing is that players say they want rewards but what they really mean is that they want something to make gold off of. They’ll then farm the kitten out of it while driving the prices of drops down. It mostly comes down to comparing what is profitable in comparison to other events. Istan currently is the worst offender, which is why people have it of farm. Istan completely outshines all other events in terms of rewards/profits when it should be a blanket of the same rewards across the board, with dailies adding to the profit to entice players to actively participate on different events. Extra's like currencies for the area and dailies should be the USP's to attract players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I go through this on occasion. Sometimes I need to do a dungeon run, and there's just nobody around to do them. Really, there's only 3 options open to you: > > (1): Tag up. A proper commander tag helps out a lot with gathering people. > (2): Wait around forever for a chance to get lucky. Someone usually comes along eventually. > (3): Git reel gud. While you are right, something like a dungeon is very small scale and is achievable (even if hard) to form a group in a short amount of time and even dungeons get dailies to entice players to do them. Dungeons can be partied up by asking guilds or just in general. Also... you can get dungeon content through pvp tracks... But events like map meta's like Vabbi for my example require 30+ people to do it. or even legendary bounties require a lot more people than the champion ones. People don't do them since the rewards are so abysmal in comparison to something like the Istan farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks I'm not blaming Istan, I'm using it as an example. And yeah, reward is the issue. I've stated that multiple times on this thread :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > I'm not blaming Istan, I'm using it as an example. > And yeah, reward is the issue. I've stated that multiple times on this thread :) Point was that even despite nobody expecting istan it is a reward issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. At what point do you then put your foot down and say "this is causing more harm to the game overall, we need to change it and it's tough if you don't like it" I mean, I come from the game League of Legends and currently the whole community with the exception of a small handful are furious over the state of the game because Damage and mobility have creeped into the game and over time it has slowly destroyed any sense of balance, it's got to the point where no one is enjoying the game overall. If you try to nerf the culprit champions that are getting abused because they can delete anyone in 0.3 seconds people will complain about it because they want to continue abusing such a broken aspect of the game overall. In the end of the day it's a necessary evil. You got to say tough. Or even WoW, it catered so damn hard to casual players who were unwilling to put the effort in to actually play the game that it ruined the game. At what point was it necessary to say "Tough, you need to shut up and actually play the game instead of demanding freebies"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? Yes, SW was hurting the game. Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? Fuck it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. > Or even WoW, it catered so kitten hard to casual players who were unwilling to put the effort in to actually play the game that it ruined the game. > At what point was it necessary to say "Tough, you need to shut up and actually play the game instead of demanding freebies"? Are you sure you're describing WoW here? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. > > Or even WoW, it catered so kitten hard to casual players who were unwilling to put the effort in to actually play the game that it ruined the game. > > At what point was it necessary to say "Tough, you need to shut up and actually play the game instead of demanding freebies"? > > Are you sure you're describing WoW here? ;) Ha, Yeah. But i'm describing most games that cater to the larges audience possible, unfortunately... the casual audience is usually the most vocal. I'm glad someone like you is actually talking in this thread. It's a real breath of fresh air to not feel like talking to a brick wall and actually talking some sense. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. > > > Or even WoW, it catered so kitten hard to casual players who were unwilling to put the effort in to actually play the game that it ruined the game. > > > At what point was it necessary to say "Tough, you need to shut up and actually play the game instead of demanding freebies"? > > > > Are you sure you're describing WoW here? ;) > > Ha, Yeah. > But i'm describing most games that cater to the larges audience possible, unfortunately... the casual audience is usually the most vocal. > > I'm glad someone like you is actually talking in this thread. It's a real breath of fresh air to not feel like talking to a brick wall and actually talking some sense. > :) Most vocal, sure. Most knowledgable? Doubtful. Best for growth? Highly doubtful. Best for monetizing existing content? Quite possible. The video game industry has grown significantly over the last decades. Somehow we pretend that isn't possible or standard for any MMO's that aren't WoW. Those can't grow or remain healthy for several years. Meanwhile we're constantly devaluing our own content because casuals don't have the insight to see the consequences of their demands and alienating large parts of our own playerbase while pretending to be a "friendly" community... Which again just makes things worse long term. Frankly I think the growth and development of gw2 was very lackluster and remains to be exactly that. But I assume in posting this I'll get 100 whiteknights ready to fight me as well as 15 reports for daring to post such a thing. A strictly casual community in an mmorpg is, as far as i'm concerned, probably not even sustainable. They're too casual for making LFGs. Too casual for commanding. Leading guilds. Interacting with guilds. Interacting with others. Producing content. Valuing content. All that "word of mouth" marketting anet wanted? Yeah goodluck with your ... three "popular" youtube content creators, non existent twitch community, ... Things that don't exist because GW2 is strictly casual. No market for content? No content it is. I have no idea how GW2 managed to release a product that was frankly really good for the time, and didn't manage to grow it. Oh wait I do. They listened to the loudest and most toxic part of the community for years. :trollface: Wait i'm off topic. Yeah guys I'm sure balancing rewards is a bad idea. I mean, nerfing istan means less rewards and that's just bad for everyone... Right? Clearly that makes sense. I'm just an elitist who's already farmed everything trying to punish new players who still need to grind istan for gear by asking it to be nerfed! Surely. :astonished: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve The Cynic.3217 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > I said it before, there should be dailies attached to various HoT and PoF events. > > It took me several years to get Vinetooth Prime just because I wasn't there at the right time with the right group. And yet I stumbled across it *by accident*, a few months ago, just as people were getting started with it, when I was looking for, if memory serves, the Treasure Mushroom that I needed for one of the HoT elite spec weapon collections. I WPed in, and started bouncing off to the south, and, whoa, kitten, Vinetooth Prime! Go, go, go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > Adjusting rewards for other metas will just drive prices down further and we’ll be back here again with people complaining that they’re not being rewarded enough. > > > > Or even WoW, it catered so kitten hard to casual players who were unwilling to put the effort in to actually play the game that it ruined the game. > > > > At what point was it necessary to say "Tough, you need to shut up and actually play the game instead of demanding freebies"? > > > > > > Are you sure you're describing WoW here? ;) > > > > Ha, Yeah. > > But i'm describing most games that cater to the larges audience possible, unfortunately... the casual audience is usually the most vocal. > > > > I'm glad someone like you is actually talking in this thread. It's a real breath of fresh air to not feel like talking to a brick wall and actually talking some sense. > > :) > > Most vocal, sure. Most knowledgable? Doubtful. Best for growth? Highly doubtful. Best for monetizing existing content? Quite possible. > > The video game industry has grown significantly over the last decades. Somehow we pretend that isn't possible or standard for any MMO's that aren't WoW. Those can't grow or remain healthy for several years. Meanwhile we're constantly devaluing our own content because casuals don't have the insight to see the consequences of their demands and alienating large parts of our own playerbase while pretending to be a "friendly" community... Which again just makes things worse long term. > > Frankly I think the growth and development of gw2 was very lackluster and remains to be exactly that. But I assume in posting this I'll get 100 whiteknights ready to fight me as well as 15 reports for daring to post such a thing. > > A strictly casual community in an mmorpg is, as far as i'm concerned, probably not even sustainable. They're too casual for making LFGs. Too casual for commanding. Leading guilds. Interacting with guilds. Interacting with others. Producing content. Valuing content. All that "word of mouth" marketting anet wanted? Yeah goodluck with your ... three "popular" youtube content creators, non existent twitch community, ... Things that don't exist because GW2 is strictly casual. No market for content? No content it is. > > I have no idea how GW2 managed to release a product that was frankly really good for the time, and didn't manage to grow it. Oh wait I do. They listened to the loudest and most toxic part of the community for years. :trollface: > > Wait i'm off topic. Yeah guys I'm sure balancing rewards is a bad idea. I mean, nerfing istan means less rewards and that's just bad for everyone... Right? Clearly that makes sense. I'm just an elitist who's already farmed everything trying to punish new players who still need to grind istan for gear by asking it to be nerfed! Surely. :astonished: LOL!!! so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. How exactly was it hurting the game? > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. The problem is when the optimal farm far surpasses any other content in the game. Then you get multiple 50 man zergs doing the same 4 events all day long for months or years. This leaves all other zones devoid and obsolete. How do you not get this? > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. Failure to understand basic economics. More money = devaluation of that money. In fact, changing the locations of the farm would actually benefit other material items! It would create a nice rotation of stock instead of people selling just Mithril ore, ancient logs, etc. > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > The point is if everything had the same level of reward then every map/event would have equal reward. The way to optimise it would be to follow the dailies. It's that simple. Would you not be happier to continue grinding away but every day is some different content in a different area instead of the same old repetitive set of event over and over and over again? Me and Etheri are actually arguing a case that benefits people who want to grind and while doing so, you help out other players who still needs to do the old content. How is this so complicated to understand? :astonished: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > The problem is when the optimal farm far surpasses any other content in the game. > Then you get multiple 50 man zergs doing the same 4 events all day long for months or years. > This leaves all other zones devoid and obsolete. > How do you not get this? Far surpasses? Have you compared the rates for the different farms? Zones have been devoid of players whether there was an existing farm or not. > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > Failure to understand basic economics. More money = devaluation of that money. > > In fact, changing the locations of the farm would actually benefit other material items! > It would create a nice rotation of stock instead of people selling just Mithril ore, ancient logs, etc. Failure on your part. Gold isn’t generated if it involves selling drops on the TP. Some of it is actually removed from the game through TP fees. Benefit other material items by making them worth less? I guess that’s good news for those that need them but too bad for those that don’t. > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > The point is if everything had the same level of reward then every map/event would have equal reward. > The way to optimise it would be to follow the dailies. > It's that simple. > Would you not be happier to continue grinding away but every day is some different content in a different area instead of the same old repetitive set of event over and over and over again? > Me and Etheri are actually arguing a case that benefits people who want to grind and while doing so, you help out other players who still needs to do the old content. > > How is this so complicated to understand? :astonished: You do realize that content is pretty much the same regardless of the map? Doing the mindless farm on one map is not going to be that much different from doing it on another. Players are still going to gravitate toward which one is more efficient or where there happens to be the most players. You can have 8 different maps with Istan farms but they all won’t be full of players doing them. All of this assuming that the new farms even have anything to do with what players have complaining about on “inactive” maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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