Urud.4925 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I recently came back to the PoF maps to complete some of the specialization collection left and I also had some difficulty in finding few people for specific bounties. Nothing too awful, in the end I made it after 2 days. But I constantly thought "wow, I did so well to buy this expansion quite fast and complete all the achievements when there were enough people". I can imagine how even more annoying would be to complete the Maw minimeta 50 times now. But this is a general problem of GW2: there's a fairly big playerbase still, but we keep getting new maps, every 3 months. Permanently improving the reward/loot on some of them wouldn't be the solution, because you'll remove players from other maps in the end. It's not that you can "create" players with better loot. A possible solution might be to temporarily give some weekly bonus (idk, 10-15% magic find if you play actively/do events, the WvW model) to one of the maps that have achievements that require many players to be completed (a different one every week). Or introducing 1 weekly, although we already have many dailes. Anyway, consider also that we had the festival for 3 weeks, and a lot of people farm the pavilion (just look at the lfg). Things should improve now, though the problem of "too many maps" should be faced sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. Steady on there, calling out his BS got me a forum warning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Urud.4925" said: > I recently came back to the PoF maps to complete some of the specialization collection left and I also had some difficulty in finding few people for specific bounties. Nothing too awful, in the end I made it after 2 days. But I constantly thought "wow, I did so well to buy this expansion quite fast and complete all the achievements when there were enough people". I can imagine how even more annoying would be to complete the Maw minimeta 50 times now. > > But this is a general problem of GW2: there's a fairly big playerbase still, but we keep getting new maps, every 3 months. Permanently improving the reward/loot on some of them wouldn't be the solution, because you'll remove players from other maps in the end. It's not that you can "create" players with better loot. > A possible solution might be to temporarily give some weekly bonus (idk, 10-15% magic find if you play actively/do events, the WvW model) to one of the maps that have achievements that require many players to be completed (a different one every week). Or introducing 1 weekly, although we already have many dailes. > > Anyway, consider also that we had the festival for 3 weeks, and a lot of people farm the pavilion (just look at the lfg). Things should improve now, though the problem of "too many maps" should be faced sooner or later. We have rotating meta rewards for core maps maps...This entire system already exists AND is ingame. And it's completely useless, thrown away dev efforts, because even when rewards are at the highest they're FAR slower than farming SW / istan / ... It's almost like this would require... rewards to be more tightly balanced. Balanced so that during high-reward weeks, those maps can compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urud.4925 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > We have rotating meta rewards for core maps maps...This entire system already exists AND is ingame. And it's completely useless, thrown away dev efforts, because even when rewards are at the highest they're FAR slower than farming SW / istan / ... It's almost like this would require... rewards to be more tightly balanced. > > Balanced so that during high-reward weeks, those maps can compete. What's the current rotating meta rewards for core maps? The only rotating event that I know on core maps are the PvE dailies, and they definitely bring more people on the chosen map of the day. Is there something else I'm missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Urud.4925" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > We have rotating meta rewards for core maps maps...This entire system already exists AND is ingame. And it's completely useless, thrown away dev efforts, because even when rewards are at the highest they're FAR slower than farming SW / istan / ... It's almost like this would require... rewards to be more tightly balanced. > > > > Balanced so that during high-reward weeks, those maps can compete. > What's the current rotating meta rewards for core maps? The only rotating event that I know on core maps are the PvE dailies, and they definitely bring more people on the chosen map of the day. Is there something else I'm missing? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Map_bonus_reward For a while this was used to farm certain maps like week 2 on FGS, where you'd have champ / event trains all week. But then HoT rewards were increased, multiloot was strictly faster than even these maps on their highest reward moments and the diminishing returns on these were never fixed. Unlike those in HoT and PoF maps, where diminishing returns were disabled in 2016 because the community demanded "more rewards". Nowadays only used with pact supply network map rewards from karma vendor dailies. We still farm the same maps + istan since that "more rewards" update. Not much else :) So we have the system to fix this...We just don't use it. Which makes it even worse, as anet put time and effort into creating this while making balance so bad (on player demand) that it's effectively wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. Then please state what the gold per hour of Istan is compared to SW and other farms. People are going off what it gave when it first came out, before the fix, which is very different from how things are today. 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Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. > > Then please state what the gold per hour of Istan is compared to SW and other farms. People are going off what it gave when it first came out, before the fix, which is very different from how things are today. Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urud.4925 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I see. Yep, I was missing something. I remember now that page, but I completely forgot it. Too complicated to understand for my laziness. Rewards could be more balanced, true, it's not some mat that let me stay on a map for a long time, indeed. But central Tyria doesn't need many players anyway, events are easy and new players should be able to complete them. World bosses are still killed regularly, so those low rewards are still fine imo. The point was: if you simply nerf Istan and SW, ppl will find another farming map and stuck in there. Even if devs were so good in perfectly balancing the rewards (from dynamic events, bounties, JP, EVERYTHING), ppl would equally spread all over Tyria. And we have a lot of maps. And more will come. Creating a temporary, moving, bandwagon or players that move every week into a different map, would probably help the players that still need to complete some achievements there. It's like playing on the map chosen for the daily PvE, but in PoF/HoT. I said a bonus to MF because it's something easy to implement and very visible, but it could be something else (a rare chance to drop a BL key from events for example, so someone could stop creating and deleting characters just for that). It doesn't have to be something so valuable that "force" us to play there, but enough to move the most greedy of us (I don't farm Istan and I only go to SW if I have to open many bags. And I've nothing against the low prices of the mats at the TP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > > > the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? > > > > Auric Basin still has the best farm in the game for raw gold while Shining Baubles are the map rewards. > > Lake Doric is very active > > > > People love the illusion of getting something worthwhile in all those unidentified gear drops in Istan. Outside of ectos it is really weak unless you have a personal use for the crafting materials out of shipments. Because they cost 1g each the actual profit is rather low from them. > > > > But there is a great need for all those materials, so it will continue to be good. > > > > Gold differences in the end aren't that huge. Istan is overhyped, people tend to forget other farms because "Go to Istan" is the perpetuated answer to anybody needing gold. > > > > So this all comes down to personal choice! I haven't set foot in Istan for a few months and I have more gold than ever before, just farming Lake Doric. Gotta get some variety or else the annoying task of killing mobs over and over again becomes unbearable. Glad that choice exists. Sad it doesn't exist in base PoF or other LS 4 maps. > > What are you on about... Half the materials in istan are already being oversupplied. It just supplies SO MANY that it's still by far the best. On release it was what... upwards of 60g/hour until the first nerf? Down from over 40g/hour once ectos completley tanked? > > Auric basin isn't as fast as istan and is still a very very rewarding map. Same for lake doric. Let's take some less rewarding LS3 maps. Wait no, lets take some core maps while the map rotation is on the peak. Oh right... 1/5th of istan appears to be the standard there. And the rewards you do get? Worth jack kitten since istan tanked their prices. Auric Basin farm has 0 waiting for events, it's permanent running over the entire map and tagging everything. In an hour you get 16g raw gold directly plus about 200 bags. I never said Istan wasn't good or the best? It's still overhyped and real profit is still nowhere near that and hasn't been that high in the past either. Profit came mostly from shipments back then because they gave you more than one gold profit. Obviously it's all ectos now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > > > > > the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? > > > > > > Auric Basin still has the best farm in the game for raw gold while Shining Baubles are the map rewards. > > > Lake Doric is very active > > > > > > People love the illusion of getting something worthwhile in all those unidentified gear drops in Istan. Outside of ectos it is really weak unless you have a personal use for the crafting materials out of shipments. Because they cost 1g each the actual profit is rather low from them. > > > > > > But there is a great need for all those materials, so it will continue to be good. > > > > > > Gold differences in the end aren't that huge. Istan is overhyped, people tend to forget other farms because "Go to Istan" is the perpetuated answer to anybody needing gold. > > > > > > So this all comes down to personal choice! I haven't set foot in Istan for a few months and I have more gold than ever before, just farming Lake Doric. Gotta get some variety or else the annoying task of killing mobs over and over again becomes unbearable. Glad that choice exists. Sad it doesn't exist in base PoF or other LS 4 maps. > > > > What are you on about... Half the materials in istan are already being oversupplied. It just supplies SO MANY that it's still by far the best. On release it was what... upwards of 60g/hour until the first nerf? Down from over 40g/hour once ectos completley tanked? > > > > Auric basin isn't as fast as istan and is still a very very rewarding map. Same for lake doric. Let's take some less rewarding LS3 maps. Wait no, lets take some core maps while the map rotation is on the peak. Oh right... 1/5th of istan appears to be the standard there. And the rewards you do get? Worth jack kitten since istan tanked their prices. > > Auric Basin farm has 0 waiting for events, it's permanent running over the entire map and tagging everything. In an hour you get 16g raw gold directly plus about 200 bags. > > I never said Istan wasn't good or the best? It's still overhyped and real profit is still nowhere near that and hasn't been that high in the past either. Profit came mostly from shipments back then because they gave you more than one gold profit. > > Obviously it's all ectos now. Imagine you have 4 classes in PvE that are op. Let's call them "chrono, druid, bs and weaver". These are so good they push away most alternatives. Yet you still want each 4 because they fill, to some extent, a different niche. Now I'm calling out one of them for being overpowered, say weaver. You can say "no, it's not because clearly you also need chronos for your weavers to do anything!" But that doesn't mean they're balanced overall. Likewise, you can't pick up the maps which reward far more than most ingame activities as a baseline, to say istan isn't that broken. That's just being dishonest. Now you tell me auric basin farms 16 (????) liquid gold per hour. I'd quite like to see that, because frankly I don't even believe it. Especially if you're not doing the events. What even is the source of all this magical liquid gold. 200 bags? That I can almost believe ;) Istan is still over 22g / hour. Compared to 16g that's still like having one dps at 30k and a second at 40k. I can assure you, if the difference is 25% then raiders will happily kick the underperforming spec every time. 25% is a big difference - but compared to most reward inbalances in the game it's nothing. Lets compare to ... domain of kourna. Lets compare to core maps. No actually, lets compare to dry top. A map quite similar to silverwastes and in my opinion not an unfun or bad map. Just... way less rewarding than SW. Istan supplies more ectos than there are sinks existing for ectos in the game. Before current event we had almost 1.4 million supply of ectos sitting on the TP. The prices crashed down to what... less than half of the level of before istan and somehow istan is STILL the most profitable farm in the game. I'm sure it doesnt' need nerfs ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehipone.6812 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. You are correct that PvP/WvW are less gold, but you do get some unique things (including the thrill of competition) in those modes, so it isn't pure 1-to-1 comparison. I think it would be complete horror of wintrading, killfarming and other unsavory stuff if those became the best gold-per-hour spots. Random PvE play may not get you to 20/hr, but there are MANY different farms in many different areas that will get close or even exceed that number. For PvE, efficient gathering of about 10 different things (especially glyph enhanced), t3 fines farming, effective and targeted PoF or LS4 mob farming or some combination of the above. [Focused farming of the most valuable/in-demand stuff can well exceed 20/hr](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35063/research-drop-rates-of-materials-from-foes-and-influence-of-magic-find#latest). Just random play in PoF maps without necessarily focus farming will net you at least 10-15g/hr, assuming you actually bother to pick up the gold that is laying all over the ground. Every ori/ancient node is worth 10 silver (orbs), every cache about 10 silver, bleached bones/chests the same, mobs rain valuable loot from t6 mats to jacaranda blooms@14silver/ea to evergreen stones, piles of unid gear, mussels are common (avg. 6 silver/gather) and you also get freshwater pearls from many types of chests. On top of this, you get chances at the rare stuff - warbeast armor recipes (up to 40 gold), minis 20 to 100+ gold. This does suggest a sort f "wandering" gameplay and I understand that that isn't everyones cup of tea. I happen to like it better than racing to tag a champ through a sea of nameplates at 6fps in Istan. And one day I will get a music box. What it is not - PoF is not a zerg farm, and that's ok. There are places that could be zerg/mini-zerg farms if players were a bit more open minded to possibilities - the blood/claw/fang loop in the NW of Desert Highlands could be a ridiculous Halloween labyrinth type farm train, or even a 5-10 man farm train like the old karka farm. If people bothered to get it together and organize for the DH treasure hunt it could be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"thehipone.6812" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. > > You are correct that PvP/WvW are less gold, but you do get some unique things (including the thrill of competition) in those modes, so it isn't pure 1-to-1 comparison. I think it would be complete horror of wintrading, killfarming and other unsavory stuff if those became the best gold-per-hour spots. Random PvE play may not get you to 20/hr, but there are MANY different farms in many different areas that will get close or even exceed that number. For PvE, efficient gathering of about 10 different things (especially glyph enhanced), t3 fines farming, effective and targeted PoF or LS4 mob farming or some combination of the above. (Focused farming of the most valuable/in-demand stuff can well exceed 20/hr)[https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35063/research-drop-rates-of-materials-from-foes-and-influence-of-magic-find#latest]. Just random play in PoF maps without necessarily focus farming will net you at least 10-15g/hr, assuming you actually bother to pick up the gold that is laying all over the ground. Every ori/ancient node is worth 10 silver (orbs), every cache about 10 silver, bleached bones/chests the same, mobs rain valuable loot from t6 mats to jacaranda blooms@14silver/ea to evergreen stones, piles of unid gear, mussels are common (avg. 6 silver/gather) and you also get freshwater pearls from many types of chests. On top of this, you get chances at the rare stuff - warbeast armor recipes (up to 40 gold), minis 20 to 100+ gold. This does suggest a sort f "wandering" gameplay and I understand that that isn't everyones cup of tea. I happen to like it better than racing to tag a champ through a sea of nameplates at 6fps in Istan. And one day I will get a music box. > > What it is not - PoF is not a zerg farm, and that's ok. There are places that could be zerg/mini-zerg farms if players were a bit more open minded to possibilities - the blood/claw/fang loop in the NW of Desert Highlands could be a ridiculous Halloween labyrinth type farm train, or even a 5-10 man farm train like the old karka farm. If people bothered to get it together and organize for the DH treasure hunt it could be awesome. > > > I agree I never want WvW or PvP to be high gold farm places. Players are too bad at the game to want them in the gamemode, they're not making it any better. Players are also too dumb to do basic math to realise that half the rewards are a scam, but hey. Players being exceptionally clueless in GW2 isn't really something new. Does this change ANYTHING about the fact that some maps and meta's literally give 5 less materials than others? Nope. It just proves that this game has absolutely massive reward inbalance. I almost wish there would be a geargrind for a month or two, that is actually linked to ingame cash. Players would actually realise howmuch more rewarding some activities are over others. You clearly state "I like this method of farming better and it comes close". That's my point. If alternatives COME CLOSE then they're valid options. Would you still do it if it gave... 5 times less than istan? Would it be worth farming 5 times longer for the same amount of money? No. So does that effectively reduce the optoins in "how you can play"? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Haco.1546" said: > The fact is: we have a problem here. And the problem is PoF maps are empty! Do something Anet E.g move that confetti from trash choya pinata into Serpent Ire P.S. Imma horrible person, I know :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenedge.9675 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > I despise HoT but don't advocate any changes because I understand that there is a segment of the player base that really likes it. That's cool. I just don't go there unless I > have to. HoT requires a mindset to become part of the meta (role-playing as a part of the team) and a dedication of at least an hour to get rewards. The HoT monsters ARE harder. They require that you know their abilities, then you can anticipate or counter their attacks. Many with only a simple dodge. > I do enjoy PoF for the exploration and understand about the lack of meta events; however, what keeps me out of PoF is the ridiculous aggro ranges. I can deal with the > mobs, but the aggro makes it annoying. This could also be part of the reason that the maps seem emptier. PoF monsters, HoT monsters ARE harder. Plus, they now come with elite skills. They also require that you know their abilities, then you can anticipate or counter their attacks. Remember with every new wave of elite skills we get, there WILL be monsters with those skills in the associated maps. People used to complain bitterly about the same issue in the Orr maps. But we all got better and it's a non-issue to solo there. Same with HoT and PoF. It just takes time and practice. Challenges like this help us develop skills and mature as players. I gave up on HoT maps for almost a year out of frustration from the mobs (and the client issues). I still played core Tyria. Then I summoned a renewed determination, rose to the challenge and I'm now comfortable with those maps. (Chak is still no fun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.8572 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"keenedge.9675" said: > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > I despise HoT but don't advocate any changes because I understand that there is a segment of the player base that really likes it. That's cool. I just don't go there unless I > have to. > HoT requires a mindset to become part of the meta (role-playing as a part of the team) and a dedication of at least an hour to get rewards. > The HoT monsters ARE harder. They require that you know their abilities, then you can anticipate or counter their attacks. Many with only a simple dodge. > > > I do enjoy PoF for the exploration and understand about the lack of meta events; however, what keeps me out of PoF is the ridiculous aggro ranges. I can deal with the > > mobs, but the aggro makes it annoying. This could also be part of the reason that the maps seem emptier. > PoF monsters, HoT monsters ARE harder. Plus, they now come with elite skills. They also require that you know their abilities, then you can anticipate or counter their attacks. > > Remember with every new wave of elite skills we get, there WILL be monsters with those skills in the associated maps. People used to complain bitterly about the same issue in the Orr maps. But we all got better and it's a non-issue to solo there. Same with HoT and PoF. It just takes time and practice. > > Challenges like this help us develop skills and mature as players. I gave up on HoT maps for almost a year out of frustration from the mobs (and the client issues). I still played core Tyria. Then I summoned a renewed determination, rose to the challenge and I'm now comfortable with those maps. (Chak is still no fun) > > > Sure but (1) the mobs in Orr were later nerfed and the population of the mobs were thinned; and (2) the aggro ranges of PoF mobs have nothing to do with player-facing skill. It just makes PoF mobs a nuissance that encourages some people like the poster you quote to just avoid those PoF maps in favor of other ones. Fighting mobs should be fun and challenging, but it's not fun to pull a hydra from two sand dunes over while doing a hero point next to another set of mobs that have respawned while you were trying to kill the hydra and the hero point challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 @"keenedge.9675" It's not the enemies that irritate me in PoF, rather it's their aggro ranges. As for HoT, it likewise isn't the enemies, it's the maps. I give credit to them as they are well done. I personally don't enjoy them. Even as a very casual player, I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the critters and their abilities and whatnot. That's not my issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Genesis.8572" said: > Sure but (1) the mobs in Orr were later nerfed and the population of the mobs were thinned; and (2) the aggro ranges of PoF mobs have nothing to do with player-facing skill. It just makes PoF mobs a nuissance that encourages some people like the poster you quote to just avoid those PoF maps in favor of other ones. Fighting mobs should be fun and challenging, but it's not fun to pull a hydra from two sand dunes over while doing a hero point next to another set of mobs that have respawned while you were trying to kill the hydra and the hero point challenge. Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > > > > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > > > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > > > > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. > > > > Then please state what the gold per hour of Istan is compared to SW and other farms. People are going off what it gave when it first came out, before the fix, which is very different from how things are today. > > Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. Linking a convoluted website that doesn’t actually list what people are getting on average isn’t answering my question. Unless the 20G/hour was your response which isn’t that far off from other farms as others have made it out to be. Not all content in the game is going to yield the same rewards. There will always be activities that yield optimal G/hr. We had it with Orr, dungeons, fractal 40, SW, and Istan. I’m sure I’m missing some others. The content people have complaining about having difficulty doing won’t be resolved by adding farms. Most, if not all, of the issues can be resolved by using the LFG. This includes creating their own instead of just sitting there waiting for one to pop up as well. Farm != Improved rewards for existing metas in my book. Metas like Serpent’s Ire could certainly be improved but not to the level to make them a farm comparable to SW and Istan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > > > > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > > > > > > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > > > > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > > > > > > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. > > > > > > Then please state what the gold per hour of Istan is compared to SW and other farms. People are going off what it gave when it first came out, before the fix, which is very different from how things are today. > > > > Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. > I'm going to entertain myself by comparing your arguments to balancing of DPS. I'll do this after looking at it from an on-topic point of view for each argument. Maybe then you'll see why literally every argument you made is either inconsistent or completely irrelevant for the issues we're trying to adress. > Linking a convoluted website that doesn’t actually list what people are getting on average isn’t answering my question. Unless the 20G/hour was your response which isn’t that far off from other farms as others have made it out to be. The website is extensive research in istan farmrates and shows that far more than 20g/hour is currently obtainable. We can argue all day what is "realistic" and what is not, but I doubt we'll go even near as extensive as the model discusses. "Benchmark dps doesn't matter because it's not representative of bosses !!! your data is meaningless even if it shows issues because I can always argue the premises and assumptions you MUST use to come to ANY number" > Not all content in the game is going to yield the same rewards. There will always be activities that yield optimal G/hr. We had it with Orr, dungeons, fractal 40, SW, and Istan. I’m sure I’m missing some others. Yet again the eternal GW2 community showing it's completely clueless regarding balance. I get that not all content will yield the same results. I also get that perfect balance is impossible. I get that something will ALWAYS be optimal. At NO POINT did I deny this. This changes NOTHING about the fact that having some maps be WAY more rewarding than others - which you will not deny - isn't balanced. It's also not healthy for the replayability of both maps. "Not all classes in the game need a viable build. There will always be classes that yield better DPS results. We had icebow meta, FGS meta, FA tempest meta, burn tempest meta, weaver meta and now THIEVES doing most dps. I'm sure I'm missing some other top DPS results. Clearly there is NO POINT in trying to balance DPS specs, anet should stop doing balancing updates." > The content people have complaining about having difficulty doing won’t be resolved by adding farms. Most, if not all, of the issues can be resolved by using the LFG. This includes creating their own instead of just sitting there waiting for one to pop up as well. Of course not, giving rewards doesn't suddenly make the community bright or good at the game. That much is obvious. In fact, it'd just make them constantly tell anet how the content should be easier so they can access the rewards. But is there a reason that much of this difficult content is much less rewarding than others? To make sure players don't consider it worthwhile? Yeah that sounds great. Perhaps there are players who'd like a bit of challenge, but also rewards. Perhaps there are players who'd like ... just a different farm or change, without giving up huge amounts of rewards. Perhaps they just... prefer a different type of gameplay or meta. "People complaining about XXX content being diffult on YYY class won't be resolved by balancing these classes. Most, if not all, of the issues can be resolved by PLAYING BETTER. This includes creating their own instead of sitting there waiting for one to pop up as well. There's no point in balancing classes, if people really want to they can complete any boss with any setup. Balancing and meta are completely irrelevant." > > Farm != Improved rewards for existing metas in my book. Metas like Serpent’s Ire could certainly be improved but not to the level to make them a farm comparable to SW and Istan. No, farms like istan and SW are very unhealthy for the long-term health of both our content AND our economy and should have been gutted months ago. You talk about farms like orr except... Oh right, nobody does them anymore. Not because they got nerfed, but because the newer ones like SW and istan are strictly better. So you claimed a lot of arguments, which all miss the mark. I'll use your arguments on CLASS and DPS balancing just so you get how dumb it looks. "A meta spec is something different than the existing classes and specs in my book. Some classes like core necro could certainly be improved but not to the level to make them a meta spec comparable to chrono." You see how dumb these arguments look when you just replace farms and other maps with meta specs and less performant specs? Right. Now you'll cry they're totally not comparable because... the content you play is a choice and the class you play is an identity or some BS? Because you consider the two totally not comparable? Because there is no analogy to be found? Because you don't believe in meta either? Yeah. I remember PVE casuals denying certain classes were better than others because "we can't measure it" too. Then DPS meters came, and showed everyone that balance was a shitshow. Time to ask gw2efficiency to full-track our account value and allow us to map gold/hour for the ourselves and the playerbase just to prove to you that it's ALL OVER THE FUCKING PLACE? :trollface: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > > > > > > > Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. > > > > > > > > > > "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... > > > > > Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. > > > > > > > > > > And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. > > > > > > > > Then please state what the gold per hour of Istan is compared to SW and other farms. People are going off what it gave when it first came out, before the fix, which is very different from how things are today. > > > > > > Use https://sites.google.com/view/gw2-tipm/get-the-model/how-to-use-it as reference. I'm not comparing to SW; SW also needs nerfs. If you think the "average" maps in GW2 come close to 20g/hour you're pretty off. If you think PvP / WvW come near that, even worse. > > > > I'm going to entertain myself by comparing your arguments to balancing of DPS. I'll do this after looking at it from an on-topic point of view for each argument. Maybe then you'll see why literally every argument you made is either inconsistent or completely irrelevant for the issues we're trying to adress. The balancing of farms in the game and the balancing of DPS are two very different things. > > Linking a convoluted website that doesn’t actually list what people are getting on average isn’t answering my question. Unless the 20G/hour was your response which isn’t that far off from other farms as others have made it out to be. > > The website is extensive research in istan farmrates and shows that far more than 20g/hour is currently obtainable. We can argue all day what is "realistic" and what is not, but I doubt we'll go even near as extensive as the model discusses. > > "Benchmark dps doesn't matter because it's not representative of bosses !!! your data is meaningless even if it shows issues because I can always argue the premises and assumptions you MUST use to come to ANY number" I asked for a simple g/hr number and you linked a page that didn’t have that and instead listed a convoluted reasoning for how to determine g/hr. It’s suspicious if people will state that Istan gives out so much more g/hr than other farms yet decline to provide the average rate players obtain. > > Not all content in the game is going to yield the same rewards. There will always be activities that yield optimal G/hr. We had it with Orr, dungeons, fractal 40, SW, and Istan. I’m sure I’m missing some others. > > Yet again the eternal GW2 community showing it's completely clueless regarding balance. I get that not all content will yield the same results. I also get that perfect balance is impossible. I get that something will ALWAYS be optimal. At NO POINT did I deny this. > > This changes NOTHING about the fact that having some maps be WAY more rewarding than others - which you will not deny - isn't balanced. It's also not healthy for the replayability of both maps. > > "Not all classes in the game need a viable build. There will always be classes that yield better DPS results. We had icebow meta, FGS meta, FA tempest meta, burn tempest meta, weaver meta and now THIEVES doing most dps. I'm sure I'm missing some other top DPS results. Clearly there is NO POINT in trying to balance DPS specs, anet should stop doing balancing updates." Why does there need to be a balance between which maps yield the best g/hr? Exactly what is gained by having players farming on all of the maps equally? One farm is inherently no different than another as the highly profitable ones often involve following around a massive zerg just hitting auto attack for hours upon hours. Again, class balance is not the same as gold farming balance. I find it difficult to believe that the issue of class balance is as pressing as the balance of farms across maps. > > The content people have complaining about having difficulty doing won’t be resolved by adding farms. Most, if not all, of the issues can be resolved by using the LFG. This includes creating their own instead of just sitting there waiting for one to pop up as well. > > Of course not, giving rewards doesn't suddenly make the community bright or good at the game. That much is obvious. In fact, it'd just make them constantly tell anet how the content should be easier so they can access the rewards. But is there a reason that much of this difficult content is much less rewarding than others? To make sure players don't consider it worthwhile? Yeah that sounds great. > > Perhaps there are players who'd like a bit of challenge, but also rewards. Perhaps there are players who'd like ... just a different farm or change, without giving up huge amounts of rewards. Perhaps they just... prefer a different type of gameplay or meta. > > "People complaining about XXX content being diffult on YYY class won't be resolved by balancing these classes. Most, if not all, of the issues can be resolved by PLAYING BETTER. This includes creating their own instead of sitting there waiting for one to pop up as well. There's no point in balancing classes, if people really want to they can complete any boss with any setup. Balancing and meta are completely irrelevant." Exactly what content is more difficult than others? Serpent’s Ire is only “difficult” because of players’ collective ability to not CC. That’s on them though and not the game. Farms on all maps to resolve issues with a lack of players is something I think the OP had brought up or perhaps it was someone else. They wanted to resolve the issue with getting players to do certain group activities which the farms may not even help with. Another issue is who will balance out these farms and what impact do you think it’ll have on the economy? > > Farm != Improved rewards for existing metas in my book. Metas like Serpent’s Ire could certainly be improved but not to the level to make them a farm comparable to SW and Istan. > > No, farms like istan and SW are very unhealthy for the long-term health of both our content AND our economy and should have been gutted months ago. > You talk about farms like orr except... Oh right, nobody does them anymore. Not because they got nerfed, but because the newer ones like SW and istan are strictly better. > > So you claimed a lot of arguments, which all miss the mark. I'll use your arguments on CLASS and DPS balancing just so you get how dumb it looks. > > "A meta spec is something different than the existing classes and specs in my book. Some classes like core necro could certainly be improved but not to the level to make them a meta spec comparable to chrono." > > You see how dumb these arguments look when you just replace farms and other maps with meta specs and less performant specs? Right. Now you'll cry they're totally not comparable because... the content you play is a choice and the class you play is an identity or some BS? Because you consider the two totally not comparable? Because there is no analogy to be found? Because you don't believe in meta either? > > Yeah. I remember PVE casuals denying certain classes were better than others because "we can't measure it" too. Then DPS meters came, and showed everyone that balance was a shitshow. Time to ask gw2efficiency to full-track our account value and allow us to map gold/hour for the ourselves and the playerbase just to prove to you that it's ALL OVER THE kitten PLACE? > > :trollface: No those farms are not. We’ve had farms like these since the game launched. The farms located on specific maps have had minimal impact. What’s been the loot has had an impact on the economy but only for those items. The PoF chests around the maps have had a greater impact. I’ve seen people still doing Orr but I also was primarily referencing back at launch when Orr was THE place to farm. There has never been a balance in this game on farm locations and I seriously doubt you can say the same for most of the other MMO’s. As I said above, class balance and balance of farms are two entirely different things. You can’t really compare them. Balance of farms across maps only impacts the location of where you farm but the farm itself will remain relatively unchanged. Where you choose to farm only impacts your ability to a specfic amount of gold over a specific amount of time. You’ll still earn gold regardless but it will just take a little longer to achieve your goal(s). Class balance is different as this impacts your ability to be competitive in some game modes such as WvW and sPvP. In PvE it really only impacts in getting groups for high level content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valderen.1843 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I personally hated Orr and HoT but love PoF maps. For me I simply found the events in Orr and HoT to be too disruptive to gameplay if you were not actually doing them but were there for other reasons. PoF in that aspect is perfect, the events are not disruptive to regular gameplay. The issue that the rewards are bad in PoF is somewhat unrelated to how the zones and events are designed, and could easily be fixed. I believe that if all things were equal (difficulty/rewards), PoF would be more popular than HoT. The nature of GW also makes it so that unlike most MMO, players are not limited to the latest zones only. WoW will only find people in the expansion zones because the rest of the content is totally invalidated by the new content, this isn't the case for GW. It makes it much harder on Anet. There's good and bad to both, I prefer the GW model obviously, but it will create instances where some old content is more interesting/rewarding then the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalendraf.9521 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 It might depend on when you're playing. I've recently been trying to polish off achievements on PoF maps and found a lot of players active on the Elon and Vabbi maps during the weekend and NA weeknight time frames. At each heart I saw several other players doing them as well. When bounties spawned a few dozen players came to join the fights even without active tags on the map, and only a map chat notice. However, I doubt I will be returning to these maps very often once I complete the remaining achievements. Thus, long term, I do think there will be an incentive problem with attracting enough players. On the other hand, the same can be said for many of the Tyria maps, or even some of the HoT maps. Players will tend to gravitate toward the newest maps, or the ones that give the best rewards for time spent. If a map offers neither, it won't attract players. One option might be to update some of the events on older maps to reward new or improved rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 As a WvW/PvP player, I'd gladly hang out in the PvE maps if there was any chance of excitement (ie. pvp combat). The maps are all beautifully designed and a lot of fun to explore. I'm just bored out of my skull because the only thing to do there is kill mobs or run pve event chains. Optional pvp flag on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"coro.3176" said: > As a WvW/PvP player, I'd gladly hang out in the PvE maps if there was any chance of excitement (ie. pvp combat). The maps are all beautifully designed and a lot of fun to explore. I'm just bored out of my skull because the only thing to do there is kill mobs or run pve event chains. > > Optional pvp flag on? Ew no please. They "tried" that in SW with the bandit camp for awhile, and it backfired horribly, also made it annoying to get that POI. PVE in this game is PVE, and if they allowed PVP in it itd add *another* thing theyd have to balance around and they have issues with balance already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > As a WvW/PvP player, I'd gladly hang out in the PvE maps if there was any chance of excitement (ie. pvp combat). The maps are all beautifully designed and a lot of fun to explore. I'm just bored out of my skull because the only thing to do there is kill mobs or run pve event chains. > > > > Optional pvp flag on? > > Ew no please. They "tried" that in SW with the bandit camp for awhile, and it backfired horribly, also made it annoying to get that POI. PVE in this game is PVE, and if they allowed PVP in it itd add *another* thing theyd have to balance around and they have issues with balance already. Fair. I'm just saying there's a large population that never spends any time in the PvE maps at all because there's no chance of the kind of combat we like - vs other real players. If you want to make a deal with the devil (.. so to speak), you could have a lot more players on those PvE maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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