pah.4931 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"pah.4931" said: > > Shroud is and always will be the problem with the necro class. And in all honesty, I wouldn't mind seeing it go. I don't think they ever will (they will just phase it out with elite specs)... > > > > Lastly, from a nerdier perspective, the necromancer class has the LEAST class fantasy of all the other classes (imo) -- death shroud, with any other name, has nothing at all to do with Necromancy (it could be a resource for any class). And once you are in shroud, there is nothing overly necromancer about it other than the names of abilities. No vampire, no command of death, nothing. It's weird. > > I would say Engineer has the least class fantasy. This Necromancer actually fits the fantasy theme. Reaper is 100% a fantasy theme and being able to play as one is a huge draw for people who have played Necromancer in fantasy games like Dungeons and Dragons. Death Shroud too. I'm not sure how entering Death or Reaper Shroud is not necromancy since these are abilities designed around being a "living" personification of death and soul reaping made manifest. Summoning minions is pretty par the course for a Necromancer. They put their own unique spin on it but I do not find it to be outside of fantasy tropes. They have several vampiric abilities that symphony blood and health from other people. The chill theme fits a Necromancer fantasy trope. I think Scourge is the least Necromancy part of the profession. The concept of shades makes it feel necromancy in a fantasy way but the sand part of it pulls it away from anything people would consider a core fantasy trope. > > Engineer, on the other hand, 100% steampunk. Running around with guns and rifles is closer to Steampunk or flintlock fantasy than it is pure fantasy. The Elites it has take it further away from being a fantasy type profession. There is nothing fantasy about Scrapper and Holosmith has you running around with a lightsabre. > > Engineer has the least class fantasy of all the other professions. Necromancer is just not a cookie cutter, carbon copy of what other games have done with the concept. And for that, I appreciate them for. I like when games get creative with fantasy tropes and presents them in new and interesting ways. I think it's because the class fantasy comes mostly from just naming conventions and graphics (I guess we are walking a fine line here, I'll admit). You could have the exact same shroud ability on an elementalist and instead, she turns into a fire/water/storm/earth abomination instead of a "personification of death" and change the names of the abilities (same effects) and nothing has changed. A warrior, too, could have the exact same mechanic, and instead turn into a huge giant fighter. Create a new profession called Werewolf with the exact mechanic and no one would bat an eye. Just change graphics and names. The mechanic itself is NOT necromancery (as opposed to the class mechanic being more around raising the dead). You could make similar arguments with a lot of classes (and I would concede many of them), but the necromancer feels particularly lost in this respect. As far as vampire-like abilities, most are so bad that they aren't playable. There is very little trait support for them and without going all-in on healing power (and even then) they aren't very effective. As far as minions go, I feel more like a puppet-master than a necromancer (this is entirely personal preference, but raising skeleton armies from dead enemies feels much more in line with a necro fantasy than a reanimator-type ability to create "flesh puppets" in my garage from bits from roadkill). I will agree that Reaper is fantasy-themed -- to a fault. A slow-moving, hulking, hard-to-kill, powerful spectre of death. Cool. Until you put that fantasy into a PvP setting and then... that theme doesn't really work without nerfing a lot of what makes the theme great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Well. Shroud doesn't have to go. Just make it work like holoforge. Instead of filling heat it starts @ 100% lf and then depletes the more you use shroud skills. That would also not lock you out from other abilities. But Necro definetly would need to get some movement or blocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taqe.1342 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 As long as core necro will not get "fixed" shroud/life force =/= health, adding new elite spec means nothing , you still need to use 2 core trait lines and there is no way they can add mobility, active defences, boons in a single trait line to compensate loss of "passive" defence of life force/health. It will only create more and more balancing issues, coz you either make OP eliste spec or nerf core even more so new elite is not to OP... and this cycle will go on as we saw with scourge, nerfing core and reaper becouse new spec was to OP, they had to bring it in line, so now after they nerfed core and reaper, they have to find ways to buff them without ovebuffing scourge again... mechanicly core and reaper have shroud and scourge don't, to much of a difference to balance this huge change in how a class is played. First two have OP "second life bar" so they have to have no active defences, no moblity, no boons, and mediocore dps to compensate, and then you will introduce new elite without shroud, how do you balance it if 2 other traitlines that you have to take MUST be balanced around core and reaper becouse "shroud". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > I suspect that we will see future Elite specs try to reenvision the Shroud mechanic in a way that makes it more balanced thus giving people who want a change and a fix their fix and allowing people who don't see it as a problem the ability to continue playing as they currently are. > > The issue will remain that the core isn't fit to support such e-specs which will lead to more tweaks impacting the existent (read "nerf") and more complains from everywhere since players won't be able to play as they currently are. A good example of that is that with scourge they had to modify _speed of shadow_ and _vital persistence_ which impacted greatly the way players played core and reaper. (I'm not saying that modifying VP wasn't needed due to it's overwhelming utility for every builds, but it hurted a lot the gameplay and the changes didn't really changed the fact that this trait still seem mandatory for a lot of builds that use the soul reaping trait line) Yeah, I'm aware of that possibility. I think it's an imperfect solution to the fact that ANet is kinda stuck with what they have now that people have been playing it for six years. I think they are in a lose/lose bind and they are just trying to figure out a way to make losing hurt less for all involved. > @"pah.4931" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > Shroud is and always will be the problem with the necro class. And in all honesty, I wouldn't mind seeing it go. I don't think they ever will (they will just phase it out with elite specs)... > > > > > > Lastly, from a nerdier perspective, the necromancer class has the LEAST class fantasy of all the other classes (imo) -- death shroud, with any other name, has nothing at all to do with Necromancy (it could be a resource for any class). And once you are in shroud, there is nothing overly necromancer about it other than the names of abilities. No vampire, no command of death, nothing. It's weird. > > > > I would say Engineer has the least class fantasy. This Necromancer actually fits the fantasy theme. Reaper is 100% a fantasy theme and being able to play as one is a huge draw for people who have played Necromancer in fantasy games like Dungeons and Dragons. Death Shroud too. I'm not sure how entering Death or Reaper Shroud is not necromancy since these are abilities designed around being a "living" personification of death and soul reaping made manifest. Summoning minions is pretty par the course for a Necromancer. They put their own unique spin on it but I do not find it to be outside of fantasy tropes. They have several vampiric abilities that symphony blood and health from other people. The chill theme fits a Necromancer fantasy trope. I think Scourge is the least Necromancy part of the profession. The concept of shades makes it feel necromancy in a fantasy way but the sand part of it pulls it away from anything people would consider a core fantasy trope. > > > > Engineer, on the other hand, 100% steampunk. Running around with guns and rifles is closer to Steampunk or flintlock fantasy than it is pure fantasy. The Elites it has take it further away from being a fantasy type profession. There is nothing fantasy about Scrapper and Holosmith has you running around with a lightsabre. > > > > Engineer has the least class fantasy of all the other professions. Necromancer is just not a cookie cutter, carbon copy of what other games have done with the concept. And for that, I appreciate them for. I like when games get creative with fantasy tropes and presents them in new and interesting ways. > > I think it's because the class fantasy comes mostly from just naming conventions and graphics (I guess we are walking a fine line here, I'll admit). You could have the exact same shroud ability on an elementalist and instead, she turns into a fire/water/storm/earth abomination instead of a "personification of death" and change the names of the abilities (same effects) and nothing has changed. A warrior, too, could have the exact same mechanic, and instead turn into a huge giant fighter. Create a new profession called Werewolf with the exact mechanic and no one would bat an eye. Just change graphics and names. The mechanic itself is NOT necromancery (as opposed to the class mechanic being more around raising the dead). > > You could make similar arguments with a lot of classes (and I would concede many of them), but the necromancer feels particularly lost in this respect. > > As far as vampire-like abilities, most are so bad that they aren't playable. There is very little trait support for them and without going all-in on healing power (and even then) they aren't very effective. > > As far as minions go, I feel more like a puppet-master than a necromancer (this is entirely personal preference, but raising skeleton armies from dead enemies feels much more in line with a necro fantasy than a reanimator-type ability to create "flesh puppets" in my garage from bits from roadkill). > > I will agree that Reaper is fantasy-themed -- to a fault. A slow-moving, hulking, hard-to-kill, powerful spectre of death. Cool. Until you put that fantasy into a PvP setting and then... that theme doesn't really work without nerfing a lot of what makes the theme great. None of that changes that Necromancer still leans on traditional Necromantic tropes. Whether or not you like them or you feel they work particularly well as abilities they are still there and thus the profession is still a fantasy Necromantic type class. There are unique elements to this version of a Necromancer but it is still a recognizable Necromancer. Death Shroud is still a Necromancer type ability. Sure they could take that mechanic and give it a new name with a new theme but it doesn't change that ANet gave that mechanic a Necromantic theme so that it felt like a Necromancer. On a mechanical level, everyone will do Necromancer differently, mostly because each game uses a different set up for how their classes work. Mechanics isn't what defines a Necromancer. It's the themes and tropes used to define those mechanics. Engineer, on the other hand, is still the least fantasy based profession in the game. No matter how bad you may feel Necromancer is at being a Necromancer the Engineer is 100% a steampunk or flintlock fantasy styled profession. > @"Taqe.1342" said: > As long as core necro will not get "fixed" shroud/life force =/= health, adding new elite spec means nothing , you still need to use 2 core trait lines and there is no way they can add mobility, active defences, boons in a single trait line to compensate loss of "passive" defence of life force/health. It will only create more and more balancing issues, coz you either make OP eliste spec or nerf core even more so new elite is not to OP... and this cycle will go on as we saw with scourge, nerfing core and reaper becouse new spec was to OP, they had to bring it in line, so now after they nerfed core and reaper, they have to find ways to buff them without ovebuffing scourge again... mechanicly core and reaper have shroud and scourge don't, to much of a difference to balance this huge change in how a class is played. First two have OP "second life bar" so they have to have no active defences, no moblity, no boons, and mediocore dps to compensate, and then you will introduce new elite without shroud, how do you balance it if 2 other traitlines that you have to take MUST be balanced around core and reaper becouse "shroud". That's possible. We have to remember, Necromancer may not be fixable. So long as the core rules continue as it there may be no fixing Necromancer and that's a hard reality for a lot of people to come to terms with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > > Engineer, on the other hand, is still the least fantasy based profession in the game. No matter how bad you may feel Necromancer is at being a Necromancer the Engineer is 100% a steampunk or flintlock fantasy styled profession. > Hmm. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. First - there isn't a really strong "engineer" class fantasy in general (it is not NEARLY as well-trodden as wizard, necromancer, warrior, etc). Second - in most iterations of this class fantasy, it IS steampunk. For example, here is a write up from a list of Fantasy Character Archetypes: "The Engineer: Other Names: Tinkerer, Artificer, Machinist, Gadgeteer, Alchemist note . This is a character class that relies on technology, often of the Steam Punk or Magitek variety, to achieve ranged controlling effects similar to a wizard. They most likely have guns and bombs as primary weapons, and employ stationary and/or mobile machines on the battlefield. May be seen as "too sci-fi"." Third - you've got guns and kits (including a WRENCH!) and turrets and elixirs (alchemy) and gyros and bombs and grenades. If you are arguing that "Death Shroud" is strong class fantasy just because it's name, then you have no leg to stand on for claiming Engineer is lacking class fantasy. Holosmith is a big deviation from Engineer, but so is scourge... so /shrug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > Engineer, on the other hand, is still the least fantasy based profession in the game. No matter how bad you may feel Necromancer is at being a Necromancer the Engineer is 100% a steampunk or flintlock fantasy styled profession. > > > > Hmm. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. > > First - there isn't a really strong "engineer" class fantasy in general (it is not NEARLY as well-trodden as wizard, necromancer, warrior, etc). > > Second - in most iterations of this class fantasy, it IS steampunk. For example, here is a write up from a list of Fantasy Character Archetypes: "The Engineer: Other Names: Tinkerer, Artificer, Machinist, Gadgeteer, Alchemist note . This is a character class that relies on technology, often of the Steam Punk or Magitek variety, to achieve ranged controlling effects similar to a wizard. They most likely have guns and bombs as primary weapons, and employ stationary and/or mobile machines on the battlefield. May be seen as "too sci-fi"." > > Third - you've got guns and kits (including a WRENCH!) and turrets and elixirs (alchemy) and gyros and bombs and grenades. If you are arguing that "Death Shroud" is strong class fantasy just because it's name, then you have no leg to stand on for claiming Engineer is lacking class fantasy. Holosmith is a big deviation from Engineer, but so is scourge... so /shrug. > Agree to disagre? Actually no. You seem to dilute the definitions of things like fantasy, steampunk, Necromancer, Engineer so that it fits whatever you need it to fit in order for you to be "correct." You discount Necromancer abilities that clearly make it a standard fantasy necromancer while at the same time redefining Engineer abilities so that you can fit them into fantasy. That's an argument in bad faith and why would I ever agree to disagree when the person is not making a good faith argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer.3875 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Necro is just fine, bud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"pah.4931" said: > > > > > > Engineer, on the other hand, is still the least fantasy based profession in the game. No matter how bad you may feel Necromancer is at being a Necromancer the Engineer is 100% a steampunk or flintlock fantasy styled profession. > > > > > > > Hmm. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. > > > > First - there isn't a really strong "engineer" class fantasy in general (it is not NEARLY as well-trodden as wizard, necromancer, warrior, etc). > > > > Second - in most iterations of this class fantasy, it IS steampunk. For example, here is a write up from a list of Fantasy Character Archetypes: "The Engineer: Other Names: Tinkerer, Artificer, Machinist, Gadgeteer, Alchemist note . This is a character class that relies on technology, often of the Steam Punk or Magitek variety, to achieve ranged controlling effects similar to a wizard. They most likely have guns and bombs as primary weapons, and employ stationary and/or mobile machines on the battlefield. May be seen as "too sci-fi"." > > > > Third - you've got guns and kits (including a WRENCH!) and turrets and elixirs (alchemy) and gyros and bombs and grenades. If you are arguing that "Death Shroud" is strong class fantasy just because it's name, then you have no leg to stand on for claiming Engineer is lacking class fantasy. Holosmith is a big deviation from Engineer, but so is scourge... so /shrug. > > > > Agree to disagre? Actually no. You seem to dilute the definitions of things like fantasy, steampunk, Necromancer, Engineer so that it fits whatever you need it to fit in order for you to be "correct." You discount Necromancer abilities that clearly make it a standard fantasy necromancer while at the same time redefining Engineer abilities so that you can fit them into fantasy. That's an argument in bad faith and why would I ever agree to disagree when the person is not making a good faith argument. LOL! You arguing as if MY opinions are opinions and YOUR opinions are facts (which seems to have excused you from having to make any substantial argument or examples). I literally quote an outside source of what an engineer often is in Fantasy, which lists "steampunk" (which was your main reason why Engineers in GW2 are NOT Engineers, right?) and you just bury your head in the sand and say "la la la." I was in fact generously giving you an out -- as you don't have a great argument here -- and you slung it back at me! Good stuff. Here's an Engineer class from Warhammer Online: http://warhammer.gamepressure.com/war_abilities_engineer.asp Let's see (just scanning down the page)... gun, grenade, turret (and ability to repair turrets), land mines, mortars, mini-keg bomb, and look! Even a flamethrower. Necromancers, on the other hand, USUALLY have some sort of command of the dead (which they don't have at all in GW2). In GW2 they have minions, but these aren't spirits or skeletons or zombies... they are flesh puppets, which is more in line with a "reanimator" fantasy (golems vs. army of the dead - big difference). They can't raise allies. They don't avoid death themselves or do anything special in death themselves. And shroud is entirely unique to GW2 (a pretty good hint that it's not at ALL in-line with any class fantasy tropes... since tropes USUALLY mean overly-used and wide-spread traits and abilities; they are almost cliches). I never claimed necro had NO class fantasy, just the least. Chill (not unique to necro), fear (also not unique), and some lame self-corruption, sure. Three other classes have access to life-leeching abilities, so that's not even unique to the necro in GW2! You could call a necromancer in GW2 a "Warlock," rename Death Shroud to Soul Shroud and no one would have batted an eye. **So then... since you're claiming I am "diluting the definition" then we cannot move forward until you provide me the real definitions.** Until you provide me with the correct definitions, here are the descriptions of each prof from Anet: NECRO: Practitioners of the dark arts **(sure)**, necromancers summon the dead **(nope!)**, wield the power of lost souls **(nope!)**, and literally suck the life force from the enemy **(I guess? But it means nothing because "life force" isn't a stat of other players)**. Necromancers feed on life force, which they can use to bring allies back from the brink **(nope!)** or cheat death itself **(kinda, but also not really - Elixir S cheats death WAY better)**. ENGI: Masters of mechanical mayhem, engineers love to tinker with explosives **(yup!)**, elixirs **(yup!)**, and all manner of hazardous gadgets **(yup!)**. They can take control of an area by placing turrets (yup!), support their allies with alchemic weaponry **(yup!)**, or lay waste to foes with a wide array of mines **(yup!)**, bombs **(yup!)**, and grenades **(yup!)**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Silencer.3875" said: > Necro is just fine, bud! See!!!!!! I knew such people existed!!!!!!!!! HA!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlinvf.1358 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 just to weigh in before the rabbit hole floods with tears..... Magic based classes usually aren't well defined by mechanics, because magic (by function) defies mechanics. Magic is more defined by themes; yet the basic mechanics is pretty simple..... "stuff just happens". But since thats not possible with games, because game are literally a set of rules, you either mimic other mechanics or bypass them. RPG games love to do both. There was a period in early 2000 where every show had to go "hard scifi", and went out of their way to explain how everything worked. Doesn't matter what it was... magic, technology, psychic powers, Unobtainium, just all needed an arbitrary break down of its pseudo science- even if that information did nothing for the story, or even actively damaged it. The irony though is that, when it was all said and done, still relied on a simple suspension of disbelief, because Unobtainum is only subject to its own internal logic. Writers and Game systems would later label this concept "Hard Magic", where an otherwise undefined/unlimited system is given a hard limit to its rule set. Steam Punk for instance is limited by mechanical design and physical interaction, but powered by completely fantastical energy sources (Ether often being the answer to numerous problems). But to take a page from Dr Orphus- The line between schools of magic are the theatrics. He is a Necromancer by trade, but his powers aren't limited to dead (and or previously dead) things. HENCHMAN 21 But you're a necromancer! That's what necromancers do! That is the definition of necromancer! DR. ORPHEUS Well yes, technically. But the term is used loosely these days. Magician, wizard, warlock; they sound rather goofy. Necromancer is all we've got left. ...................... Tiny Attorney : Could you tell the court what it is that you do? You're a type of magician? Dr. Byron Orpheus : Well, if you must call me that, yes. But, if you are after mere parlor tricks, you will be sorely disappointed. For if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, but your very soul! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hfGEdw03sw aaaaannnnywayyyyy........ The game is nothing but mechanics, and much of the mechanics are similar across the board. But what makes the different things interesting is the theatrics and themeing of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 What i like about scourge is that life force is used as a secondary resource, and just that, you dont enter into a transform which gives you a second health bar and also doesnt let you to use your utilities, maybe this concept should be applied to Reaper and Core necro, in exchange of more active defenses. But still we have so many traits which work with shroud, so it is a huge work to do if we are to get rid of this skill. And still, i cannot see clearly the role of scourge and reaper in pve, to try to make some sort of hybrid classes has never worked well in the game, so i cannot discern clearly if Scourge role is to do heavy aoe pressure or to do support by giving might and barriers. But the idea is to be one or the other, because by hibridizyng the spec we have now a profesion which doesnt do better dps than other classes and also doesnt make better support than more specialized support classes. Anyways, for the next expansion i expect something diferent with the life force mechanic of necro, variations can be inmense, even we can copy another class mechanic and that would be fine, because it will be something new and exciting fro necromancer players. And maybe, the problem is not necro, but the other profesions, they do so much damage that they must be brought down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > What i like about scourge is that life force is used as a secondary resource, and just that, you dont enter into a transform which gives you a second health bar and also doesnt let you to use your utilities, maybe this concept should be applied to Reaper and Core necro, in exchange of more active defenses. But still we have so many traits which work with shroud, so it is a huge work to do if we are to get rid of this skill. > > And still, i cannot see clearly the role of scourge and reaper in pve, to try to make some sort of hybrid classes has never worked well in the game, so i cannot discern clearly if Scourge role is to do heavy aoe pressure or to do support by giving might and barriers. But the idea is to be one or the other, because by hibridizyng the spec we have now a profesion which doesnt do better dps than other classes and also doesnt make better support than more specialized support classes. > > Anyways, for the next expansion i expect something diferent with the life force mechanic of necro, variations can be inmense, even we can copy another class mechanic and that would be fine, because it will be something new and exciting fro necromancer players. > > And maybe, the problem is not necro, but the other profesions, they do so much damage that they must be brought down. Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColderThanYou.7549 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I loved this game and spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on it just to be the absolute best possible. I played Necro exclusively and finally have uninstalled the game because ANET is letting us take it up the a-- on a daily basis. I'm sure a handful (if not all) of the dev team play Elementalist or whatever flavor of the month class. But to be fair, even if Necros were #1 in every respect of the game... I'd still have quit. Spamming the exact same 5-10 skills for half a decade got boring real fast and the lack of cosmetic individuality disgust me. I understand the "lore" reasons behind the minion appearance, but holy sh-t they are beyond repulsive. And not in a good way. They have the time and resources to give a visual update or even offer gem store skins for minions, yet they don't. Every day since launch some Necro somewhere in the world is asking for minions to be looked at. ANET should take notes from Blizzard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"ColderThanYou.7549" said: > I loved this game and spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on it just to be the absolute best possible. I played Necro exclusively and finally have uninstalled the game because ANET is letting us take it up the a-- on a daily basis. I'm sure a handful (if not all) of the dev team play Elementalist or whatever flavor of the month class. But to be fair, even if Necros were #1 in every respect of the game... I'd still have quit. Spamming the exact same 5-10 skills for half a decade got boring real fast and the lack of cosmetic individuality disgust me. > > I understand the "lore" reasons behind the minion appearance, but holy sh-t they are beyond repulsive. And not in a good way. They have the time and resources to give a visual update or even offer gem store skins for minions, yet they don't. Every day since launch some Necro somewhere in the world is asking for minions to be looked at. ANET should take notes from Blizzard. You mean like gravedigger on enemies below 50% health? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better. Im open to suggestions. Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this. But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother? Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better. > > Im open to suggestions. > > Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this. > > But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother? > > Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss Even if you suggest a whole bunch of 'not DPS' things to throw at Necro to make it meta, consider: 1. Anet has not shown that's how they work so the idea doesn't even conform to the game development; they don't just slap on a big ability to make classes desirable 2. I would say that the 'things' are already there, they just aren't popular with the Meta crowd because they aren't inline with optimized play. One of those 'things' is superior rezzing. Whenever we try a new bit of content in our group, we always have a rezzing necro, not because we suck, but because we learn the content by doing it. Someone who is downed 50% of the time can't learn the content. Rezzing strength of Necro is a GREAT and almost unique feature to this class. To be fair, you asked some good questions I think everyone should answer. I think damage could be buffed, but it's not going to be any level of damage that makes meta teams take Necro; I agree with Dace on that point. Damage is just NOT a class defining thing. What role ... I keep seeing this. It's a fallacy to think that giving necro a 'role' will make them desirable. The game just isn't complex enough and giving classes 'roles' specifically to make them desirable is strongly against the idea you can play how you want, which is still preserved by the fact that the threshold to succeed is very low. If you make a thing in content, or pass out the 'role' baton to a class, that class is actually deficient in design because it's a forced situation that requires specific balance and consideration, leaving the rest of the class behind. It's also actually a step backwards for the game concept to ensure classes fill roles; I've wasted FAR too much time in other games waiting for a healer or tank ... or worse ... that special class that no one wants to play, but everyone wants, because it has that special skill that makes the encounters much less difficult. It's a disappointment to me that raids ended up taking on a psuedo-trinity flavour. Still, I doubt that's a reason to just throw out the roles and compromise the whole game design for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Even if you suggest a whole bunch of 'not DPS' things to throw at Necro to make it meta, consider: > > 1. Anet has not shown that's how they work so the idea doesn't even conform to the game development; they don't just slap on a big ability to make classes desirable > 2. I would say that the 'things' are already there, they just aren't popular with the Meta crowd because they aren't inline with optimized play. One of those 'things' is superior rezzing. Whenever we try a new bit of content in our group, we always have a rezzing necro, not because we suck, but because we learn the content by doing it. Someone who is downed 50% of the time can't learn the content. Rezzing strength of Necro is a GREAT and almost unique feature to this class. > > To be fair, you asked some good questions I think everyone should answer. I think damage could be buffed, but it's not going to be any level of damage that makes meta teams take Necro; I agree with Dace on that point. Damage is just NOT a class defining thing. > > What role ... I keep seeing this. It's a fallacy to think that giving necro a 'role' will make them desirable. The game just isn't complex enough and giving classes 'roles' specifically to make them desirable is strongly against the idea you can play how you want, which is still preserved by the fact that the threshold to succeed is very low. If you make a thing in content, or pass out the 'role' baton to a class, that class is actually deficient in design because it's a forced situation that requires specific balance and consideration, leaving the rest of the class behind. > > It's also actually a step backwards for the game concept to ensure classes fill roles; I've wasted FAR too much time in other games waiting for a healer or tank ... or worse ... that special class that no one wants to play, but everyone wants, because it has that special skill that makes the encounters much less difficult. > > It's a disappointment to me that raids ended up taking on a psuedo-trinity flavour. Still, I doubt that's a reason to just throw out the roles and compromise the whole game design for it. While taking in consideration in these points, we must be aware that there is an issue with the profesion, so now the question is, necromancers are not desirable, how you make them desirable? What could you make to necromancers, to make a random player say "guys, we need a necro for this one!"? If lets say, i forgot about a "role", ok, lets see this from an higher plane. What could a necromancer have to make people say "guys, we are missing a necro for this one!". Professions are desirable for what they can do, what uniqueness can have a necromancer to make people say "nice, we have a necro!" when joining in a party? How we solve this? Because even if necro have some unique traits that make them special above other classes, well, it seems that these are not enough or these are not attractive. It is like, per example, i can go to the park and sell the very best ice cream in the universe, but hell, it is winter here and no one will want something cold, but i keep saying "i can make the best ice cream, IT should work!". The "meta" that we know today its the result of the people to adaptate to the best situation, i could even say that this is inherently a human behavior on almost all situations of life, you do some task, then the next time you want to do it better, faster, smarter, easier, so you adapt and make some rules and protocols, then a meta is born. And sometimes you have a group of people, so you want to optimize the work, then "roles" are created and that is also the result of human behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > While taking in consideration in these points, we must be aware that there is an issue with the profesion, so now the question is, necromancers are not desirable, how you make them desirable? > 3 years ago, ANet answered this question by giving the necro a "niche": Boon corruption. Now we all know what happened, Necro became stronger in WvW zerg, meta in PvP and fractals gained an instability granting boons to mobs where the necromancer enjoyed a limited glory. > What could you make to necromancers, to make a random player say "guys, we need a necro for this one!"? If lets say, i forgot about a "role", ok, lets see this from an higher plane. > > What could a necromancer have to make people say "guys, we are missing a necro for this one!". Professions are desirable for what they can do, what uniqueness can have a necromancer to make people say "nice, we have a necro!" when joining in a party? How we solve this? > > Because even if necro have some unique traits that make them special above other classes, well, it seems that these are not enough or these are not attractive. It is like, per example, i can go to the park and sell the very best ice cream in the universe, but hell, it is winter here and no one will want something cold, but i keep saying "i can make the best ice cream, IT should work!". > > The "meta" that we know today its the result of the people to adaptate to the best situation, i could even say that this is inherently a human behavior on almost all situations of life, you do some task, then the next time you want to do it better, faster, smarter, easier, so you adapt and make some rules and protocols, then a meta is born. And sometimes you have a group of people, so you want to optimize the work, then "roles" are created and that is also the result of human behavior. The issue with the necromancer is that it's unique traits are way more effective against players than they are against mobs and especially boss. The only way to make the necromancer more attractive is not to bet on it's unique traits, but to strip him off of it's uniqueness. Ultimately, the necromancer need to be more in line with what other profession do and less with what he is known for. Which mean that he need less "passive" survivability opening a path in balance for more sheer damage potential in order to be brought in line with other. He need less uniqueness in it's direct support tools (boon corruption, revive, barrier and vampiric effect are very difficult to balance support tools that limit the potential of the necromancer in PvE due to PvP and WvW). This is stupid but what prevent the necromancer to be desirable in PvE is it's uniqueness, digging into necromancer's uniqueness to make him desirable in PvE is the worst thing that ANet could do for their game as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Even if you suggest a whole bunch of 'not DPS' things to throw at Necro to make it meta, consider: > > > > 1. Anet has not shown that's how they work so the idea doesn't even conform to the game development; they don't just slap on a big ability to make classes desirable > > 2. I would say that the 'things' are already there, they just aren't popular with the Meta crowd because they aren't inline with optimized play. One of those 'things' is superior rezzing. Whenever we try a new bit of content in our group, we always have a rezzing necro, not because we suck, but because we learn the content by doing it. Someone who is downed 50% of the time can't learn the content. Rezzing strength of Necro is a GREAT and almost unique feature to this class. > > > > To be fair, you asked some good questions I think everyone should answer. I think damage could be buffed, but it's not going to be any level of damage that makes meta teams take Necro; I agree with Dace on that point. Damage is just NOT a class defining thing. > > > > What role ... I keep seeing this. It's a fallacy to think that giving necro a 'role' will make them desirable. The game just isn't complex enough and giving classes 'roles' specifically to make them desirable is strongly against the idea you can play how you want, which is still preserved by the fact that the threshold to succeed is very low. If you make a thing in content, or pass out the 'role' baton to a class, that class is actually deficient in design because it's a forced situation that requires specific balance and consideration, leaving the rest of the class behind. > > > > It's also actually a step backwards for the game concept to ensure classes fill roles; I've wasted FAR too much time in other games waiting for a healer or tank ... or worse ... that special class that no one wants to play, but everyone wants, because it has that special skill that makes the encounters much less difficult. > > > > It's a disappointment to me that raids ended up taking on a psuedo-trinity flavour. Still, I doubt that's a reason to just throw out the roles and compromise the whole game design for it. > > While taking in consideration in these points, we must be aware that there is an issue with the profesion, so now the question is, necromancers are not desirable, how you make them desirable? If you ask me, that's a small problem that doesn't need to be fixed, because they are only undesirable for a very specific situations; Necros trying to join strict Meta PUGs. Being desirable isn't about giving something to necros; it's about how people play the game. There are LOTS of undesirable classes and builds if someone wants to build an ultra optimized Meta group. That doesn't mean there's a problem. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > This is stupid but what prevent the necromancer to be desirable in PvE is it's uniqueness, digging into necromancer's uniqueness to make him desirable in PvE is the worst thing that ANet could do for their game as a whole. This is true I think; it goes back to making classes 'special' and in this game model that's not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better. > > Im open to suggestions. > > Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this. > > But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother? > > Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Taqe.1342" said: > As long as core necro will not get "fixed" shroud/life force =/= health, adding new elite spec means nothing , you still need to use 2 core trait lines and there is no way they can add mobility, active defences, boons in a single trait line to compensate loss of "passive" defence of life force/health. It will only create more and more balancing issues, coz you either make OP eliste spec or nerf core even more so new elite is not to OP... and this cycle will go on as we saw with scourge, nerfing core and reaper becouse new spec was to OP, they had to bring it in line, so now after they nerfed core and reaper, they have to find ways to buff them without ovebuffing scourge again... mechanicly core and reaper have shroud and scourge don't, to much of a difference to balance this huge change in how a class is played. First two have OP "second life bar" so they have to have no active defences, no moblity, no boons, and mediocore dps to compensate, and then you will introduce new elite without shroud, how do you balance it if 2 other traitlines that you have to take MUST be balanced around core and reaper becouse "shroud". I personally think Shroud has a fairly simple (but major) fix that could solve the core problem but, Necro would still need a skills and trait overhaul to make it work. Here's my Shroud Core Mechanic change that would solve the main problem: #####1. No second life bar but a power bar that gets reduced when you get life force. When the bar is full you can enter Shroud. #####2. Life Force is a pool that heals you upon use. So it's a 2nd heal Not 2nd life bar. You use all of it each time you enter Shroud. (THE MAIN CORE CHANGE) #####3. In Shroud you replace your weapon skills as normal but keep your utility skills. #####4. Your HP slowly goes down while in Shroud. If your HP drops below 25% then you are knocked out of Shroud. Otherwise you can stay in shroud. #####5. You can heal as normal in Shroud but need to be out of Shroud to use Life Force to heal. Some trait changes would be useful: - Either Soul Reaping or Death should have trait to proc Invul upon entering Shroud - More than 1 Trait line (besides Death) should auto-proc Shroud. For example, Curses could proc Shroud with X number of conditions. - An Endurance enhancing trait would be nice. Like refilling Endurance upon entering shroud. - Some speed traits would be nice too. If Vampires are part of the inspiration of a Necro then a spring or quicken would be in theme I think the main changes of this core change will get rid of the hate for the 2nd life bar. The heal and the trait changes would still give shroud a familiar feel to longtime players but at the same time help people get over the idea that Shroud is a viable defense. Then finally we can get some defensive traits and skills and balance the class. I'll leave it up to the community and hopefully Devs to figure out the math to balance everything. It think this core change will fix the ultimate problem which is the perceptions which hinder the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > As long as core necro will not get "fixed" shroud/life force =/= health, adding new elite spec means nothing , you still need to use 2 core trait lines and there is no way they can add mobility, active defences, boons in a single trait line to compensate loss of "passive" defence of life force/health. It will only create more and more balancing issues, coz you either make OP eliste spec or nerf core even more so new elite is not to OP... and this cycle will go on as we saw with scourge, nerfing core and reaper becouse new spec was to OP, they had to bring it in line, so now after they nerfed core and reaper, they have to find ways to buff them without ovebuffing scourge again... mechanicly core and reaper have shroud and scourge don't, to much of a difference to balance this huge change in how a class is played. First two have OP "second life bar" so they have to have no active defences, no moblity, no boons, and mediocore dps to compensate, and then you will introduce new elite without shroud, how do you balance it if 2 other traitlines that you have to take MUST be balanced around core and reaper becouse "shroud". > > I personally think Shroud has a fairly simple (but major) fix that could solve the core problem but, Necro would still need a skills and trait overhaul to make it work. > Here's my Shroud Core Mechanic change that would solve the main problem: > #####1. No second life bar but a power bar that gets reduced when you get life force. When the bar is full you can enter Shroud. > #####2. Life Force is a pool that heals you upon use. So it's a 2nd heal Not 2nd life bar. You use all of it each time you enter Shroud. (THE MAIN CORE CHANGE) > #####3. In Shroud you replace your weapon skills as normal but keep your utility skills. > #####4. Your HP slowly goes down while in Shroud. If your HP drops below 25% then you are knocked out of Shroud. Otherwise you can stay in shroud. > #####5. You can heal as normal in Shroud but need to be out of Shroud to use Life Force to heal. > Some trait changes would be useful: > - Either Soul Reaping or Death should have trait to proc Invul upon entering Shroud > - More than 1 Trait line (besides Death) should auto-proc Shroud. For example, Curses could proc Shroud with X number of conditions. > - An Endurance enhancing trait would be nice. Like refilling Endurance upon entering shroud. > - Some speed traits would be nice too. If Vampires are part of the inspiration of a Necro then a spring or quicken would be in theme > > I think the main changes of this core change will get rid of the hate for the 2nd life bar. The heal and the trait changes would still give shroud a familiar feel to longtime players but at the same time help people get over the idea that Shroud is a viable defense. Then finally we can get some defensive traits and skills and balance the class. I'll leave it up to the community and hopefully Devs to figure out the math to balance everything. It think this core change will fix the ultimate problem which is the perceptions which hinder the profession. I'm not convinced that you need Utilities in Shroud. You're not really in the Shroud form long enough for most of them matter. What little time you are there really should be devoted to the use of the Shroud abilities, otherwise what's the point? Additionally, unless Shroud worked like Photon Forge in which it can enhance certain skills due to some kind of mechanic related to being in Shroud similar to Heat there doesn't really seem to be a need for Utilities. In that regard, if Shroud and Utitlies were to be used at the same time then there really should be some form of synergy between the two. Having two real heal skills like that also runs the risk of reducing the overall effectiveness of Necromancers heals similar to what we see in Revenant due to their access two heals. Which in turn could make Shroud sapping at your life a bad idea. For instance, if you are already below 25% health you wouldn't be able to enter Shroud all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > Except, damage isn't exactly the issue. It's the thing that a lot of people talk about but DPS alone isn't what at fault. Even if you lowered the DPS of every other profession in the game Necromancer would still suffer the same problem as a lot of the other professions in the game doing damage and .... If Necromancer only brings just DPS to the table people would still likely shun it since they can get DPS from any old profession but those other professions also offer other useful things. Mesmer offers you DPS and access to useful boons such as alacrity. The discussion on Necromancer needs to evolve beyond damage because damage alone will not make Necromancer better. > > > > Im open to suggestions. > > > > Right now scourge provides little quantities of might, a good idea could be to buff these skills to give might more easily, still, druids and i think mesmers give might too. So, if this get buffed, then maybe the problem will not be solved, other solution can be a unique buff, but since necromancer have already vampiric presence, and this one buff is really bad i dont see what can be done with this. > > > > But i still believe that damage needs to be buffed. I ask now, what you want from necromancer? what kind of role? because even if necromancer can get buffs like quickness or alacrity, well, you have mesmer that will do it better, so why bother? > > > > Also, necromancer is not a class that empowers him/herself, its about weaken the enemy, another suggestion can be that your weakening conditions are stronger, say, with necro you can get 5 extra stacks of vulnerabilty, reaching 30 stacks, that can be huge in a boss > > I don't have a role in mind as I don't main Necromancer. I just like playing Reaper a lot. But if I had to pick a role for Necromancer I would like go with boon and condition manipulation along the lines of corrupting and converting them. Take the conditions on someone else and turn them into boons. Take the boons on someone else and turn them into conditions. Damage can be buffed but just a pure buff doesn't change anything. If you made Necromancer equal in terms of DPS to everyone else there is still no reason to take them as everyone else can do DPS plus something else. It's the plus something else that gets a profession added to a team, not just pure DPS. That's not really a major problem anymore and a simple DPS increase could make Necro viable in the eyes of Meta players. Not optimal, but viable, like all other professions. The game is in a spot now where Chronomancer does everything else. To a lesser extent you have Druid and BS always filling a slot, but beyond that, all you need to get into a group is a profession that does over 32K DPS (preferably power for most of the endgame content), preferably a bit more with some up front burst and cleave. That's it. Unfortunately, Necromancer is the only profession that falls far behind that, doing nearly a whopping five thousand damage less than that every second. That is just too much to phase bosses comfortably in a lot of situation, making a variety of encounters much more difficult, and no one wants to bother with that for no reason if they can just take any other DPS instead. I'm not saying this is a good situation or a satisfying fix, but until especially Chronomancer get's nerfed, that's all that is left for every other class to do. Do a certain number of DPS that is in line with other DPS's. The other option to make Necro currently viable without redesigning the entire game, giving mobs plentiful boons and condition applications, would be to give Scourge one or two powerful group damage buffs, as well as adding a few direct heals to a weapon or two, as well as changing some utility skills to provide more support in forms of heals and or boons and buffing it's ability to generate 25 stacks of might slightly and adding some group Fury to the kit, so it could properly compete with Druid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekretaal.6485 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 In the past, Anet seems to look at buffs/nerfs for stuff that players are playing that is over performing/underperforming. For Example: Guardian Focus was a meta quality weapon with an underperforming #4. Players used the weapon, but hated the #4 (big damage that bounced to nearby targets and blinded). They got a new, huge overall damage, power based damage over time skill. Necromancer Focus is hot garbage, unused by anybody. Necromancer #4 does only 33% of its stated damage which is already too low because of an awkward bouncing theme that doesn't work because it doesn't come with something to bounce off of like mirror blade. Guardian got the incredibly well designed new focus 4, because Guardian players were using their focus and Necromancer players were not using their focus. Give Necromancer that Guardian focus skill, and players would start playing Focus, even though necromancer focus 5 still under performs with its long cast time and preconditions to do damage. Base Necromancer Shroud sits unplayed, so it gets no attention. Ditto for minions, focus, staff, offhand dagger, mainland dagger... There may be hope. Thief and Mesmer and Revenant all got redesigns, so maybe someday Necromancer will get its turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Maybe Necro is actually good but people are to blind to see it. "Has no insane DPS Benchmark on the Golem" = Trash Tier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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