Q2 earnings.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > >

> > > > This.

> > > >

> > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > >

> > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > >

> > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > >

> > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > >

> > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > Long may it continue.

> >

> > Good point, the terminology I used was incorrect for what I was trying to say.

> >

> > The market is saturated, I fully agree. The market as a whole has shrunk too though, the time of MMOs being "the big thing" is over. Mobile games are the big thing now both in focus and revenue. Ease accessibility is the key word (Fortnite anyone?). MMOs have always been very difficult to get into, even if GW2 to a certain extent does this okayish, it's the just play MMO from all available (but falls flat in teaching players to go beyond pressing 1). Any company currently succeeding in this market does so by either being Blizzard, or having carved out a niche in the market which they cater to. As such it is nice to see GW2 and its business model working out.

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > >

> > > > This.

> > > >

> > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > >

> > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > >

> > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > >

> > > I dont think its pof it self (the expansion box with its content) but rather arena net managing to actually release content for the masses soon after the exoansion. something that hot didnt have.

> > >

> > > Also theres more titles in the mmo genre, BDO runescape as well as up and comming mmos such as Ashes of creation.

> >

> > I'd say it's both. The content drought after HoT was in my opinion more responsible for the decline in revenue than the actual expansion. Yes, more and more reliable updates has been working out better.

> >

> > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

>

> Bdo had shortcommings but it over came them and its a point where its releasing massive free updates and even a remaster to the game's graphics.

>

> Theres nothing to suggest that ashes is going to fail and according to staff hirings, communication with developers and milestones they've been doing great and have managed to become the biggest in developement kickstarter mmo rn.

 

AoC is a sandbox style MMO. Go do a short reading of how sandbox MMOs have done historically but you know what, go for it, be excited. I'm always happy when a new IP succeeds.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > >

> > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > >

> > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > >

> > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > >

> > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > >

> > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > >

> > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > >

> > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > >

> > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> >

> > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > >

> > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> >

> > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > >

> > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> >

> > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> >

> > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> >

>

> But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

>

> Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

 

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

 

Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

 

Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

 

 

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > >

> > > > > This.

> > > > >

> > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > >

> > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > >

> > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > >

> > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > Long may it continue.

> > >

> > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > >

> > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > >

> > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> >

> > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> >

> > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > >

> > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> >

> > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> >

> > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> >

>

> Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

>

> From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

>

> Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

>

> HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

>

> This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills. That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

 

While I again agree with you Vayne, I also believe WvW and PvP were better supported right out of the box.. but was allowed to slip down the ladder, especially leading up to and ever since HoT.

I still don't consider GW2 to be the norm just because it has raids or dungeons or whatever, but neither do I believe competition for numbers exists only in its own "we are special" part of the market. GW2 has to compete with all those other niche and normal parts of what has become a saturated marketplace imo.

[zealex.9410]

Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

 

 

Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

>

>

> Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

 

I don't play wow but i'd daresay they have a little more experience in the mmo genre, not to mention their budget is probably 3 times the size. GW2's way of making the game feel alive is much more subtle

[zealex.9410]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> >

> >

> > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

>

> I don't play wow but i'd daresay they have a little more experience in the mmo genre, not to mention their budget is probably 3 times the size. GW2's way of making the game feel alive is much more subtle

 

Iirc gw1 and wow released around the same period. Gw1 had more subtle living world through gw beyond than gw2 has.

 

The most "living world" we've got since forever was with the festival of 4 winds.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

>

>

> Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

 

I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

 

So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

 

Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> >

> >

> > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

>

> I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

>

> So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

>

> Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

 

Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

 

Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

 

They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > >

> > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > >

> > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > >

> > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > >

> > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > >

> > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > >

> > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > >

> > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > >

> > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > >

> > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > >

> > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > >

> > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > >

> > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > >

> >

> > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> >

> > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

>

>

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

>

> Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

>

> Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

>

>

 

You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> >

> > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> >

> > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> >

> > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

>

> Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

>

> Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

>

> They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

 

I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > >

> > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > >

> > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > >

> > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> >

> > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> >

> > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> >

> > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

>

> I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

 

Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

 

Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > >

> > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > >

> > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > >

> > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > >

> > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > >

> > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > >

> > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > >

> > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > >

> > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > >

> > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> >

> >

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> >

> > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> >

> > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> >

> >

>

> You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

 

Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > >

> > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > >

> > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > >

> > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > >

> > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > >

> > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > >

> > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> >

> > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

>

> Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

>

> Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

 

Yep.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > >

> > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > >

> > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > >

> > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > >

> > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > >

> > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > >

> > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

>

> Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > >

> > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > >

> > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > >

> > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > >

> > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > >

> > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> >

> > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> >

> > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

>

> Yep.

 

Actually, the most living area of the game for me remains Heart of Thorns. It's the place in the game I felt like I was actually moving through enemy territory. I felt more immersed in HOT than I ever did in core. Different strokes, I guess.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > >

> > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > >

> > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > >

> > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > >

> > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > >

> > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > >

> > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> >

> > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

>

> Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

>

> Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

 

Vanilla does have a main story line to follow that actually builds up over time. It's linked to the leveling so every couple of levels you'd get the next quest that advanced the story and it all ended with killing Zhaitan, which I think qualifies as an end boss. Here's a link if you want more details https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_story

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > >

> > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > >

> > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > >

> > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > >

> > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > >

> > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > >

> > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

>

> Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > >

> > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > >

> > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > >

> > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > >

> > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > >

> > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> >

> > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> >

> > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

>

> Yep.

 

How is it even worse than crafting? I also would not consider playing WvW for the level up chests or fractal dailies farming

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > >

> > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > >

> > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > >

> > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > >

> > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > >

> > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> >

> > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> >

> > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

>

> Vanilla does have a main story line to follow that actually builds up over time. It's linked to the leveling so every couple of levels you'd get the next quest that advanced the story and it all ended with killing Zhaitan, which I think qualifies as an end boss. Here's a link if you want more details https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_story

 

I think he means season1.

 

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > > >

> > > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > > >

> > > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

> >

> > Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > >

> > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > >

> > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > >

> > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > >

> > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > >

> > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> >

> > Yep.

>

> How is it even worse than crafting? I also would not consider playing WvW for the level up chests or fractal dailies farming

That's kinda the definition of farming in games... Playing a content repeatedly for a specific reward.

And it's worse than crafting because it's 100% RNG.

 

Also, again, you prove my point, since neither Fractals (especially T4 which is the way to increase the chances of getting a good reward) nor WvW are considered casual content, or and this is directly what was implied about collections, **EXPLORATION**. And farming that content for that specific reward is probably the furthest you can go from a "scavenger hunt".

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > >

> > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > >

> > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > >

> > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > >

> > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > >

> > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> >

> > Vanilla does have a main story line to follow that actually builds up over time. It's linked to the leveling so every couple of levels you'd get the next quest that advanced the story and it all ended with killing Zhaitan, which I think qualifies as an end boss. Here's a link if you want more details https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_story

>

> I think he means season1.

>

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > > > >

> > > > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

> > >

> > > Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > > >

> > > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> > >

> > > Yep.

> >

> > How is it even worse than crafting? I also would not consider playing WvW for the level up chests or fractal dailies farming

> That's kinda the definition of farming in games... Playing a content repeatedly for a specific reward.

> And it's worse than crafting because it's 100% RNG.

>

> Also, again, you prove my point, since neither Fractals (especially T4 which is the way to increase the chances of getting a good reward) nor WvW are considered casual content, or and this is directly what was implied about collections, **EXPLORATION**. And farming that content for that specific reward is probably the furthest you can go from a "scavenger hunt".

>

 

Considering that exotic is all you will ever need in this game IF you truly play and aim to play it casually, not sure what this entire ascended grind has to do with this.

 

That's not even getting into the fact that after almost 6 years, there has been 1 increases in gear Tier (when ascended was introduced step wise) over 4 years ago. I have WoW and other MMO characters, none of them are even remotely play-able now that I've been on break from those games for 1+ years.

 

But please, keep going on about how grindy this game is and similar to all the other MMOs.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > > >

> > > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> > >

> > > Vanilla does have a main story line to follow that actually builds up over time. It's linked to the leveling so every couple of levels you'd get the next quest that advanced the story and it all ended with killing Zhaitan, which I think qualifies as an end boss. Here's a link if you want more details https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_story

> >

> > I think he means season1.

> >

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > > > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > > > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > > > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > > > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > > > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > > > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > > > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

> > > >

> > > > Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> > > >

> > > > Yep.

> > >

> > > How is it even worse than crafting? I also would not consider playing WvW for the level up chests or fractal dailies farming

> > That's kinda the definition of farming in games... Playing a content repeatedly for a specific reward.

> > And it's worse than crafting because it's 100% RNG.

> >

> > Also, again, you prove my point, since neither Fractals (especially T4 which is the way to increase the chances of getting a good reward) nor WvW are considered casual content, or and this is directly what was implied about collections, **EXPLORATION**. And farming that content for that specific reward is probably the furthest you can go from a "scavenger hunt".

> >

>

> Considering that exotic is all you will ever need in this game IF you truly play and aim to play it casually, not sure what this entire ascended grind has to do with this.

>

> That's not even getting into the fact that after almost 6 years, there has been 1 increases in gear Tier (when ascended was introduced step wise) over 4 years ago. I have WoW and other MMO characters, none of them are even remotely play-able now that I've been on break from those games for 1+ years.

>

> But please, keep going on about how grindy this game is and similar to all the other MMOs.

 

At least know what you're answering to!

Seriously! Why in such a rush to look ignorant?

This came from a comment saying that all Collections were scavenger hunts that were mostly about exploration.

To which i replied with the example of the ascended armor collection, like i could give for just about any legendary collection, or Specialization Weapons, etc...

Soemone replied he didn't craft his, he got it from drops to which i pointed out, that it's even worse to farm it that way.

 

And now you're talking about gear tiers. Congrats man...

Hey, Warframe has a mod that allows Rhino to shed his invulnerability and do damage to enemies around it... That last sentence was just about as much on point as your whole comment.

 

GW2 had the potential to be the very best uncontested MMORPG in the world, no doubts, it had everything: A pro-level competitive pvp, the promise of a great living world and original story delivery, and a great RvR with tons of potential. But it's letting every single one of those things slip away, and the blame falls on us, the players, especially players like yourself that rush to it's defence, even at the risk of just speaking nonsense. Like it even needs you making excuses for all the problems, like Arena Net is still a company ran from some guy's apartment, not a corporation with hundreds of people that should be doing better with the resources they have.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> > > >

> > > > Vanilla does have a main story line to follow that actually builds up over time. It's linked to the leveling so every couple of levels you'd get the next quest that advanced the story and it all ended with killing Zhaitan, which I think qualifies as an end boss. Here's a link if you want more details https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_story

> > >

> > > I think he means season1.

> > >

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even better when you consider that POF was half the price of Heart of Thorns. Game is doing fairly well. Not setting any records by any means, but five million bucks a month is fairly healthy for a six year old game, in my opinion anyway. Considering we're in the middle of an expansion cycle, this is probably a bit better than I expected.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to go very in-depth and actually try to analyze or try to factor for more than just revenue but also in game digital goods.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, the entire line of convenience items and services offered post HoT and PoF (as well as skins) was not available at launch or in the first year. This points to an interesting transition which Arenanet managed resulting in a steady revenue stream.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pure numbers: game looks healthy and PoF seems to have peaked more peoples interests than HoT. Let's not forget though, the competition is near non existent. There is WoW, FF 14, and basically some more western MMOs which are barely beyond life support. ESO is doing okay from that crowd I think and Eve Online has its core player base. That's it though, most every other MMO be it western or asian has failed in the western market.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree with both @"Vayne.8563" and the above from @"Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Though I would disagree slightly with the belief that competition is non existent bar those few. I believe the market is saturated with competition, when compared to how the field looked when WoW was coming to prominence.. Not every online game or MMO has to be a WoW or an FF14 to be classed as competition. By its very nature a saturated market of good, bad and ugly games plays into the up's and downs of any games numbers. GW2 I believe is managing to keep players interested, has a cash shop that helps stimulate revenue in between and during expansion cycles and does it pretty well, but to say that they have little in the way of competition I think does ANET and their team a disservice tbh. I would like to think it's because of the game quality, the business model and the players liking of something a little off the ordinary approach to traditional MMO's is what helps maintain much of that "healthy" look, whilst having to compete in a saturated market place.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Long may it continue.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Well, it has and doesn't have competition. It has the more general competition of MMOs, however, if you're looking for a specific type of MMO, this game is in a class, almost by itself.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm most interested in a game that centers on the open world, rather than raiding, and in addition to that doesn't have open world PvP. There are precious few games like this. WOW has an open world, but it's clearly focused on group instanced content, particularly at end game (in PvE anyway). Final Fantasy XIV is also more dungeon/raid focused. Games like Archeage, BDO and Blade and Soul are more open world PvP games. BDO and Archeage don't even have PVE servers. They're PvP games pretty much from the ground up. So they compete with each other.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The problem is that Guild Wars, unlike those games isn't really defined either... That's why a lot of people end up leaving without touching half of what the game has to offer...

> > > > > > > > > > > GW2 has been trying to be all types of games, offering dungeons, world bosses, raids, "competitive" pvp and faction pvp. The thing is, for each of these aspects, there's competitors out there that focus more on these aspects and offer a better experience to people who enjoy any given specific aspect. With more games on the verge of releasing that, if they do what they promise, will eclipse WvW for example.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The thing with GW2 is that they reneged their original "living world" vision, with a world that changes with the game's story and progress, to a Living Story. And even though i prefer the Story, with it being replayable and what not. It's a major step back for the game in terms of uniqueness and it's identity.

> > > > > > > > > > > Right now, with the balance towards single player experience, GW2 is competing more with GW1 and games like the Witcher, Skyrim and other single player story driven RPGs than MMORPGs. And in that front it will lose again, even to GW1, some say.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > For people who play the game I play, there's Guild Wars 2 and maybe ESO. The competition for a specific playstyle is a lot less.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > That means everyone who is interested in a game that's basically open world PVP has a host of games. People who are interested in a predominantly raiding game have plenty of competition. This game has a general competition when it comes to MMOs, but it fills a niche very few games can compete with.

> > > > > > > > > > > Did you notice you never defined what GW2 is? What's it's strong point, niche or identity?

> > > > > > > > > > > It is a jack of all trades, but more and more it's becoming master of none, and that might hurt the game in the future. Especially because Arena Net is, apparently, abandoning their initial momentum and will to innovate, and are settling into a set pace with a very formulaic development, that, the further it continues, the more it hurts the game.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad they're doing well enough, but disappointed that they're not improving.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, i'd relish a open, transparent talk from the devs as to where the money came, if the more expensive items in the gem store have had a significant impact or not. What worked and what didn't.

> > > > > > > > > > > We're not likely going to see that, which is sad, since most of us are stakeholders on the game, and that kind of information would help us help them keep the game going for another 6+ years.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Actually Guild Wars 2 was very well defined before raids came out and raids muddied the waters. Before that happened, it was a home for people who liked casual open world content. Dungeons weren't ever heavily supported. Nor were Fractals. Ask PvP and WvW players how they felt the game did supporting their respective game modes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > From day one, Anet said over and over again, including on the first page of their website, they were interested in creating a living breathing world. That's what they wanted. It was what the dynamic events were about. It was what Living Story Season 1 was about. It was clearly the focus of the company and many of us knew it and talked about it. Saying it wasn't well defined just isn't true.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Actually, i said it's less defined **now** because they abandoned the Living World Season 1 model!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Right now, look at how the raid guys are saying they're not getting enough raids and fractals. But the open world people are getting a new zone every 2-3 months. They're getting new story every 2-3 months . This is what the game is focused on just looking at updates. When you go full hog on a sitting in chair update, you pretty much know what the game is about.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Adding new maps isn't something unique or a identity... It's something every MMORPG-adjacent game must do to keep alive. It's less of an identity than a necessity.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > HoT changed the conversation quite a bit because we had 9 months without a casual update, and during that time, we had raids and PvP seasons, and what happened? The casual guys, who felt the game was their game, were suddenly disenfranchised and either left or stopped spending money on the game. Anet went back and redid HOT and came up with the story/zone strategy which seems to be working. That's what the game is centered on, because that's where they updates seem to be most prolific and it matches Anet's statement of attempting to create a living breathing world. The game was defined just fine before HoT. It's why when HoT launched you saw so much outrage. It didn't fit the existing definition of the game.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > But that's the problem that i stated, the new maps aren't living or breathing. They're static, stopped in time, within their own cannon.

> > > > > > > > > Up to HoT the game was living and breathing, Dry Top was the embodiment of how well the living world could be done. With us being allowed to explore it deeper and deeper with subsequent releases, and watch the old areas change as well, with the vines showing up, with new events and a different environment.

> > > > > > > > > That changed post-HoT. The world froze in time, with small exceptions through "Current Events".

> > > > > > > > > They started doing the current formula of "new episode, new map", and most of the story forgets the rest of the world and focuses on the new maps, which leaves the rest of the world stale.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This game fills a niche that virtually no other game fills.

> > > > > > > > > Except Diablo series, Torchlight, Warframe, etc, etc.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >That's why it remains popular, even with all it's issues, 6 years after launch. It's because they're starting to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. Not so many raids, not so many fractals, but plenty of collections and mount skins, and stuff for casual players. That's where the game seems to be focused.

> > > > > > > > > I would argue that's not really an identity. But yeah, whatever works.

> > > > > > > > > My point is, 2012 Arena Net, or at least the face they showed us, didn't seem to be content with "remaining popular", and wanted to "revolutionize". That's the game i signed up for, and that's less and less the game we're getting.

> > > > > > > > > The game is becoming predictable, and not in a good way. Even if you say it's for casuals, a lion's share of all that content is all but for casuals. A lot of achievements require a lot of grinding and farming. There's plenty content locked behind the least casual game modes, like legendaries.

> > > > > > > > > That's why i say it tries too hard to do everything, and ends up not having an identity. You can say its for casual from their releases, which is debatable, but the content, the way it's delivered isn't, not really.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But is an an identity. It's still a world that's always changing, if nothing else by growth.

> > > > > > > That's not different than any other MMORPG. If it's the same as all MMORPGs it's not an identity!

> > > > > > > > Collections are like scavenger hunts. Exploration is encouraged.

> > > > > > > Are they? Craft all ascended gear is a scavenger hunt? What do i have to explore? The depths of my wallet?

> > > > > > > > It's a cooperative open world game, that happens to have some instances in it. You can say that's not an identity but it's absolutely an identity to me. It's funny, that if raids were the most supported content, people would say that it's a raiding game. But if open world is the most supported content, people wont' say it's an open world game.

> > > > > > > Because that's not really a thing is it? Again all MMORPGs have an open world, and as an open world game, btw, GW2 is the amongst the games with least open world, since we're limited to the constraints of each map. While in actual seamless open world games (BDO for example) you can run from one end of the world map to the other without restrictions. I'm not saying it makes it a better, or worse game, just that it's not really advertisement to the game.

> > > > > > > GW2, when i joined the game was about a friendly cooperative game, that **promissed** (and initially delivered) a game world that would be influenced by players and the story.

> > > > > > > That identity was lost with the expansion cycles, and the game's lack of identity is noticeable in the way the development cycle also took to a very predictable formula that's broken only by the talent of the current events team.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anet saw HoT as having repeatable content, and they were right. And what is it really? A shorter story and four open world metas event chains, plus daytime event chains as well (which used to be part of that meta system as well). PoF was largely all open world exploration.

> > > > > > > That must be why it's mostly empty by comparison. A waste of resources from players who bought it and on the teams that developed it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > BDO is mostly a commercial failure in the western market or at least not the shining star many believed it to be, Ashes of Creation will be no different, nor will any other asian MMO which gets imported. Besides Star Citizen (lol at that one) no big western developer is aiming at releasing a new MMO soon (not that I know of).

> > > > > > > Yet the "commercial failure" has more frequent updates than GW2 (all for free, even "expansions"), with a huge engine update incoming. What is GW2 doing? Oh messing up their already delayed updates, and aren't even up to updating their engine to use more recent APIs, or optimized textures... Meanwhile people with even cutting edge PCS are watching Slideshows in WvW because all PCs nowadays are way weaker in single core processing than what was predicted when the API they're using was made.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Weird how apparently the failure has better resources

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also, i present you Crowfall, the game that if it doesn't fail will probably take most of the WvW pop away from GW2. To the point that i'm not sure if the "inspiration" for the upcoming changes wasn't motivated by this very game. It is one of those "survival" MMORPG that you seem to think will fail, but some of the best classics have exactly those "survival" elements.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can easily collect all 3 ascended armor sets without crafting a single piece. I got them all via drops and not crafted a single one

> > > > >

> > > > > Its even worse that way isn't it? I mean the farm you need to reach that... Thanks for proving my point.

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Wow has a more living breathing world influence by story and player's actions than gw2 and thats gw2's main advertisement.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Hell even gw1 has had more of a changing and living world than what we got with seasons 3 and 4.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I recently tried the starter option that allows you to go to level 20. Aside from feeling like I was going back in a time machine, the game is obviously polished but I couldn't detect any main story line that guides you through the lands. It's all fetch and kill x quests without any main purpose. So I stopped at level 20 and didn't sub, also because I heard it's like that till level 60 pretty much.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So it seems to me that the story and player influence you talk about comes much later and that's a disadvantage. I'm sure it's great for seasoned wow players, but as a new player to the game it was really rather simplistic and uninspiring really and to have to wait till level 60 before it really starts was a bit of a "never mind" moment for me.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Having said that, GW2's personal story and player influence never remotely lived up to their promises as far as I'm concerned, but at least there is a main thread. I do prefer that over aimlessly running around just leveling, wondering what it's all gonna lead to for 60 levels before the real story starts.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gw2 isnt any diff in the sense that even with lw1 which i would consider living world was still endgame content.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Wow in the same sense will make content for the ppl that are max lvl by revisiting old zones adding new story quests and even changing it in major ways.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They arent gonna revamp the entire game its not possible.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't expect them to, but it's not for me to have to gain 60 levels before I get to the main story. I'm sure Blizzard can live with that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vanilla didnt have a end boss its was about smaller adventures and explorations with multiple bad guys. At least thats what ik. After that each expac has had a main antagonist and a plot line. Anyways what blizzard does for their first 60 lvl has nothing to do with their up to date content feeling more living than gw2 which advertises that about it self.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gw2 se 1 and 2 were an actual living world compaired to everything past that point. Thats about it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yep.

> > > >

> > > > How is it even worse than crafting? I also would not consider playing WvW for the level up chests or fractal dailies farming

> > > That's kinda the definition of farming in games... Playing a content repeatedly for a specific reward.

> > > And it's worse than crafting because it's 100% RNG.

> > >

> > > Also, again, you prove my point, since neither Fractals (especially T4 which is the way to increase the chances of getting a good reward) nor WvW are considered casual content, or and this is directly what was implied about collections, **EXPLORATION**. And farming that content for that specific reward is probably the furthest you can go from a "scavenger hunt".

> > >

> >

> > Considering that exotic is all you will ever need in this game IF you truly play and aim to play it casually, not sure what this entire ascended grind has to do with this.

> >

> > That's not even getting into the fact that after almost 6 years, there has been 1 increases in gear Tier (when ascended was introduced step wise) over 4 years ago. I have WoW and other MMO characters, none of them are even remotely play-able now that I've been on break from those games for 1+ years.

> >

> > But please, keep going on about how grindy this game is and similar to all the other MMOs.

>

> At least know what you're answering to!

> Seriously! Why in such a rush to look ignorant?

> This came from a comment saying that all Collections were scavenger hunts that were mostly about exploration.

> To which i replied with the example of the ascended armor collection, like i could give for just about any legendary collection, or Specialization Weapons, etc...

> Soemone replied he didn't craft his, he got it from drops to which i pointed out, that it's even worse to farm it that way.

>

> And now you're talking about gear tiers. Congrats man...

> Hey, Warframe has a mod that allows Rhino to shed his invulnerability and do damage to enemies around it... That last sentence was just about as much on point as your whole comment.

>

> GW2 had the potential to be the very best uncontested MMORPG in the world, no doubts, it had everything: A pro-level competitive pvp, the promise of a great living world and original story delivery, and a great RvR with tons of potential. But it's letting every single one of those things slip away, and the blame falls on us, the players, especially players like yourself that rush to it's defence, even at the risk of just speaking nonsense. Like it even needs you making excuses for all the problems, like Arena Net is still a company ran from some guy's apartment, not a corporation with hundreds of people that should be doing better with the resources they have.

 

The pvp was never pro Level, the wvw was always niche (which I find very unfortunately since I come from games like DAoC and WH Online) and the pve was absolutely unfocused for the first two years.

 

I'm not making excuses for anything. I'm just no negative Nancy letting my frustration out on a forum. The game has issues, it has longterm design problems and needs reworks in some key areas.

 

The game is and has been improving with both directions and Design (some of it short sighted and in need of read just ment, sure) but as a whole it stand among one of the current best MMOs in the western market with financial numbers to support this.

 

It's simply not the type of game YOU want.

 

As for collections, yes ascended Sets are available entirely via collections and not that difficult ones for dedicated players. The precursor armor collections alone reward two full sets. So do varios other collections like Bioluminescent.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

This topic has gone wildly off the core impetus for the thread, so we'll close it now.

[STIHL.2489]

For the Q2 - 2018 Year, the Won Ranged Between a Low 1,054 to high of 1,111... with a pretty solid average of around 1,070.

With the Q2-2018 at 19,860, that means Anet made around 18,560 (million USD) or 6,186 Million per month that Quarter.

 

As best anyone can figure, GW2 has somewhere between 3 million and 1.5 million _active_ players. So, just for the sake of keeping things simple, lets say, 6 million income divided by 1.5 million players means they made around 4 dollars a player per month.

 

Which seems about right, given that the Overall Sales of PoF made around 55 Million USD @ average of $30 to $55 Per Box that would safely be around 1.5 million sales.

 

Just in case anyone was wondering.

[Gehenna.3625]

Last year it was down to 4 million a month so PoF did a lot of good there. Your player numbers are of course completely made up and I have no idea where you got the numbers from regarding PoF sales because if you take that from Q4 last year, you cannot know how much of that is gem store sales and how much of it is revenue from PoF.

 

So other than then quarterly/monthly revenue you are merely speculating and the only thing I'm wondering is how you got to those numbers cause I don't see a solid foundation for them. Maybe 20 million of that 55 million is gem store revenue and then you have a lot fewer box sales and players. Maybe gem store sales are up overall and the mount skins did really well for them.

 

So all we know is that revenue is up to levels of 3 years ago, before HoT came out and this is encouraging.

[Silencer.3875]

Those are some impressive numbers. Anet deserves every penny. :D

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> Last year it was down to 4 million a month so PoF did a lot of good there. Your player numbers are of course completely made up and I have no idea where you got the numbers from regarding PoF sales because if you take that from Q4 last year, you cannot know how much of that is gem store sales and how much of it is revenue from PoF.

>

> So other than then quarterly/monthly revenue you are merely speculating and the only thing I'm wondering is how you got to those numbers cause I don't see a solid foundation for them. Maybe 20 million of that 55 million is gem store revenue and then you have a lot fewer box sales and players. Maybe gem store sales are up overall and the mount skins did really well for them.

>

> So all we know is that revenue is up to levels of 3 years ago, before HoT came out and this is encouraging.

 

Actually, I just tallied up the sales of Q4 & Q1, as NCSOFT openly states that PoF sales also directly affected the Numbers of Q1-2018 as well as Q4-2017 sales. But I took total sales, so, no, I did not make allowance for typical gem store purchases.

 

Also, keep in mind I am using the Full Price of PoF, ranging between $30 - $60, since PoF had gone on a half price sale, the overall box sale numbers could be anywhere across the board. I was just tossing them in to give an idea that a large majority of the player base that is _active_ also purchased PoF.

 

If you would like, we could play with numbers further and credit 13,500 Won as a base for the typical Sales (Would be in line with the trend of Post-HoT sales) and while not exact, still viable to use for rough estimates, and still go with the $30, base game, which would make PoF sole sales around 29 Million, or roughly still close to a Million Copies of PoF sold, again, not including the 50% off sales, which could spike the numbers up and down all over the place. But it still shows that PoF was a popular Expansion with the majority of the player base buying it.

 

Just some numbers to toss out and play with, try not to read too much into it.

 

As for my player numbers, these are my sources for the [1.5 million ](https://altarofgaming.com/all-mmos-sorted-by-population-2018/ "1.5 million ")and the[ 3 Million.](https://twinfinite.net/2018/05/most-popular-mmorpgs/9/ " 3 Million.") Feel free to argue with them, and while you are free to feel they were "entirely made up" they were not made up by me.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > Last year it was down to 4 million a month so PoF did a lot of good there. Your player numbers are of course completely made up and I have no idea where you got the numbers from regarding PoF sales because if you take that from Q4 last year, you cannot know how much of that is gem store sales and how much of it is revenue from PoF.

> >

> > So other than then quarterly/monthly revenue you are merely speculating and the only thing I'm wondering is how you got to those numbers cause I don't see a solid foundation for them. Maybe 20 million of that 55 million is gem store revenue and then you have a lot fewer box sales and players. Maybe gem store sales are up overall and the mount skins did really well for them.

> >

> > So all we know is that revenue is up to levels of 3 years ago, before HoT came out and this is encouraging.

>

> Actually, I just tallied up the sales of Q4 & Q1, as NCSOFT openly states that PoF sales also directly affected the Numbers of Q1-2018 as well as Q4-2017 sales. But I took total sales, so, no, I did not make allowance for typical gem store purchases.

 

Well, since before the release of PoF revenue was around 4 million a month and with the release of PoF we got the mount skins, and a number of players come back to the game when an expansion comes back and also increase gem store spending again you could also argue that 4-5 million per month at least would not be coming from box sales in those periods of time. It's all guess work but since there is 4 million revenue on the table already between expansions, the expansion peak itself should be seen as the difference on top of that and not the whole revenue picture.

 

That's why Q2 is so significant because it's 50% higher than before PoF and that to me is a good sign for the game.

 

> Also, keep in mind I am using the Full Price of PoF, ranging between $30 - $60, since PoF had gone on a half price sale, the overall box sale numbers could be anywhere across the board. I was just tossing them in to give an idea that a large majority of the player base that is _active_ also purchased PoF.

 

Well, the range should be bottomed out around 20 bucks, since that's what the low end goes for although you might say that for Q4 of 2017 that wasn't the case yet. And you are right that there is a pretty good player base. And of course there are players like myself who came back after absence to try out the new expansion, although in may case that wasn't until last month.

 

> If you would like, we could play with numbers further and credit 13,500 Won as a base for the typical Sales (Would be in line with the trend of Post-HoT sales) and while not exact, still viable to use for rough estimates, and still go with the $30, base game, which would make PoF sole sales around 29 Million, or roughly still close to a Million Copies of PoF sold, again, not including the 50% off sales, which could spike the numbers up and down all over the place. But it still shows that PoF was a popular Expansion with the majority of the player base buying it.

>

> Just some numbers to toss out and play with, try not to read too much into it.

>

> As for my player numbers, these are my sources for the [1.5 million ](https://altarofgaming.com/all-mmos-sorted-by-population-2018/ "1.5 million ")and the[ 3 Million.](https://twinfinite.net/2018/05/most-popular-mmorpgs/9/ " 3 Million.") Feel free to argue with them, and while you are free to feel they were "entirely made up" they were not made up by me.

 

I prefer to stay away from guessing player base numbers because it's so out there and easy to make mistakes. Also we don't know how much of the revenue was PoF box sales and how much is gem sales, so I find it too uncertain to use for calculations. So I'm not saying the numbers are wrong, but I am saying that they are based on a very thin basis in my view and could easily be way off.

 

We also have no clue how many people tried PoF and left it again. Also no idea how many of the PoF buyers were new players who might've stayed or gone. However, I played SWTOR for many years (quit in January) and this game has definitely got a much more solid player base. I mean my guess on active players for GW2 would be more between 500k-1.5million players but that's also a guess and there is no definitive reason I could give for other people to believe me. That's just my feeling.

 

The only thing that I could say of why I think it's less than the other estimates is because the way the GW2 servers work really don't give you a good idea about how many players there are. By opening and closing maps you make sure that the maps people are on are generally well filled and when numbers go down they close them. So it's easy to get the impression there are millions of players when there may not be.

 

In short, I feel there is too little to go on from my perspective to make a realistic guess on population.

 

I do think the population is pretty healthy though. There is no doubt in my mind and the key thing for me is that they managed to push monthly spending up for the first time in years and that has to be good news for the game.

 

As for the estimates you quoted:

 

The 1.5 million guesstimate says this and I quote:

_Here’s my gut check: GW2 probably has ~1.5 million monthly “players,” and many times less people who actually log on when there isn’t a holiday event/Living Story taking place._

So this is a GUT check. His feeling and it's only when new content comes out in his view. So between new content updates he feels its a lot lower. This is in line with my feelings but as I said, those are also feelings and I do not claim any secret knowledge.

 

Then about the 3 million guess that you linked. This guy is basically using reddit subscribers (who may or may not be active) as a foundation for this calculation. And the calculation itself has a lot of ifs and buts about it. In fact the guy in the 1.5 million guess talked about this as well and also indicated that it's a rather obscure calculation he uses.

 

All in all, people can all make guesses but I wouldn't use these numbers and talk about them as if they were more reliable than they are. And I feel that's what you did in the original post. Now, the game might have 3 million active users. I have no idea. But I also don't have anything of substance to make me think it's that many. Hence my more cautious guess.

 

The revenue numbers are the facts. I do not suspect they would flat out lie to their investors. But we do not know how much of that is actual PoF sales and how much is gem sales. But as sales in general are up since PoF, it's likely that gem sales are very much in better shape as well and that could mean again that the part that is PoF sales is actually a bit smaller than people might think. That notwithstanding, I feel very positive about these revenue numbers, because the game certainly feels well populated and revenue is up. And from my point of view those are two signs that combined sound very positive :)