Etheri.5406 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 > @"Idril.8532" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > Too much effort overall. Veterans need to make content, builds, teach, inform, from baby steps all the way up. Meanwhile they don't get content. Often they don't even get appreciation. Instead they get flamed. SC and qT elitist. WvW elitists. PvP elitists. Metaslaves. Bad at the game need builds to carry them. > > > > At the same time, every pug also thinks their own builds are somehow better than meta. That they're the magical exception to the rule. Almost all of them are misinformed. If you ever so much as tell them in any tone or way that they just... don't have the insight or understanding they'll flip their kitten and be mad for days. I would know, it's why I get banned on a regular basis. > > > > Instead you have to do what... Show them 5 pages of math that proves it works out better which they'll ignore with "i can't do math, way too tryhard"? > > > > It's just too much effort, no reason, no appreciation, no fun, so why bother? It's clear our friendly community doesn't really value these players. Yet the moment these players - the backbone for every competitive and difficult gamemode - are gone, the casuals demand anet somehow fixes these issues they first created. > > I'm sorry that all this work has to fall on veterans. I've always felt like I missed something by stopping playing GW2 vanilla and I hate having to catch up by watching/reading guides. Why can't the game tell me? Guide me, teach me.. Maybe it would be even more boring for you veterans but at least you wouldn't have the burden to teach to every new person coming with a new expansion. I've been playing "constantly" since late HOT and yet, as you saw, I've learnt nothing. I am not good at support in WvW, I don't dare entering fractals and I am not even an efficient gold farmer. Why do I keep missing everything? T_T Out of sheer fear I haven't even tried mesmer, I dread the day somebody will ask me to tp them somewhere. I am even kitten at puzzle. Most hardcore players don't mind doing these things in themselves. Creating content and being involved in a game they love isn't something they "mind" doing. But there's no content (consideratoin) for us. Not enough balance, no challenges, no repetitive content. If you talk about that, you get an army of casual players telling you the game isn't for you. If you post meta builds and guides, anywhere, for any gamemode you get hundreds of players telling you what is wrong, that meta is bad, that it enforces or creates elitism... If you promote them you get the exact same. If you discuss other builds which are promoted as "better" you still get the same. If at ANY point you imply these players don't perform or understand the game well enough, it's considered toxic and repeatedly reported / downvoted / bashed. It's clear the community is more and more casual, and also not very welcoming to other (more hardcore) playstyles. I'm at a point where when it comes to WvW, we give out builds and anyone not willing to run them gets kicked. I don't have the time or energy to bother with everyone being different and unique. And even having simple rules : follow these builds or don't join which we enforce on our own raids which we host? Constant harassment and flame because hardcore elitists. But at the same time, most "elitists" aren't really as mean as people make them out to be. Show them you WANT to learn and improve and you'll take their advise and in my experience, there's plenty of groups willing to teach / help out. There are still regular leads where people will tell you what to do, and if you don't understand just ask. And don't give up when things don't work out the first time, just keep at it. People with realistic expectations who actually wanna improve are very welcome almost anywhere. I know for a FACT that every single WvW server wants more dedicated support pugs that want to improve and play FB. There's not ONE eu server that will say no to players wanting to play FB during open / pug raids. Improving in GW2 may seem daunting but you can just slap on a meta build, ask others what skills they use / when / why and play / improve from there. > > > remove the http x.x. it's some basic site not on https atm. http://builds.vabbi.eu should work. > > I still can't have access to it, it says that ez.gw2discord.eu denied it. :/ http://ezbuilds.x10host.com/builds/guardian.html Does this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs. Part 2... 2 v 2 gameplay with 3 support archetypes and 1 ranged damage archetype… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defender and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Corruptor vs https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defender and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blaster “A Blaster's primary power sets are designed specifically for ranged attacks. A Blaster's secondary power sets are designed for support via melee attacks, minor crowd control powers, or temporary self-buffs. A Corruptor's primary power sets are designed for ranged attacks. A Corruptor's secondary power sets are designed for buffing or debuffing. A Defender's primary power sets are designed specifically for buffing or debuffing. A Defender's secondary power sets are designed for ranged attacks.” As a support oriented player, I can say that the specs and mechanics to play any support role I have been given to use in gw2 is let’s say… not fun at all. I have a feeling that if we polled players here on what builds are more fun, fluid and rewarding to play, I doubt we would have many hands up for any support roles or builds. Edit- And let’s say we theorize by putting the shoe on the other foot... Let’s exchange some Druid designs with Deadeye mechanics... Take the deadeye rifle and create it to be a low damage weapon normally, with some utility, and create a Deadeye stance where players need to build malice to unlock heavy hitting rifle attacks. Now make some of these rifle attacks ground target skills and throw in a long channel root skill. The new Deadeye stance is also placed on a timer, so any skills need to be used within the allotted time... Let’s switch up Ventari and Scourge mechanics... The new Manifest Sand Shade is now a permanent entity that must be manually moved within the game world once summoned. All shade and slot skills are now centered around the shade... ...This game was designed with movement based combat in mind. We have dodges, positioning skills, ports and very few skills that root the caster... I can guarantee that players would be miffed if a lot more elite specs and builds functioned like Druid or Ventari. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archmagus.7249 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 On the topic of things returning, how about my beloved Rune of Durability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs. I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others. First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky. Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI) Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this. The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all. Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved. The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said: > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs. > > I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp > Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others. > > First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky. > Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI) > Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself > > > The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this. > > The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all. > > > Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved. > > The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents. A lot of the things you wrote are plain wrong. Tempest and firebrand have the same health. The armor value really isn't that much of a difference, tempest takes about 10% more damage which with the tempest protection trait almost evens out. Firebrand's healing is almost all outgoing healing rather than self-healing. What makes firebrand so good is that it has answers for EVERYTHING. On top of that, you can help players past healing by preventing a LOT of damage especially at a higher level. You have several stunbreaks for allies, allowing you to repeatedly save your DPS specs even if they get caught. Also stab. Also cleanse. Also aegis spam rather than healing up the hits if they take them. On top of that, insane defensives (reflects, taunts, more stab, more toughness, more healing, great cleanse, great boonuptime). Most other supports don't come close and active defenses (e.g. stab, aegis, stunbreak) allowing you to avoid damgae has always been stronger than healing up the damage you unavoidably take in GW2. FB has no problems healing more than druid in PvE. You dont' need F2 tome to heal more than a druid; and a druid is limited by CA too. The reason it's bad is a lack of offensive buffs (25 might / alac / ...), dps modifiers, spirits, ... It can still replace 2nd druid and do very well especially on some bosses. Tempest heals more than FB but only if its overloads don't get interupted. Not feasible in high end PvP. It also doesn't matter if it heals more, if a FB uses their active damage mitigation then they are plain better. A lot better. Take a warrior going into rampage to smack my necro. I can quite literally block / avoid all of its hits and my nec can be full hp the moment the warrior leaves rampage if he dodges once. A tempest can heal - a huge amount - and cleanse great condies, but he'll use half his CD's to heal up the nec where i'll just apply 3 blocks. A tempest can peel and help you survive burst, but if you get focussed hard they can't do much to outheal a burst. A FB can prevent / mitigate half the burst, stunbreak you several times in a row, remove all the condies and if you survive heal you too. If you don't? Well there's always signet of mercy since MI got nerfed into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneQR.7412 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Idril.8532" said: > I should give it another chance then, I left her to rot while I was grinding harrier accessories for her with other dps characters, but I do not understand why a healer should tag at all. > > In other games were I played pvp, if you were a healer, your contribution wasn't based on you tagging enemy players. Why should you be 'judged' on a dps-base if you are not one? Healer FB are not as efficient as Scourge, for example, in tagging, you said it yourself. So, what's the point of tagging? I'm not asking to change the class, I can keep on reflecting and all, but be judged for my actual role. Tagging is bot a dps based thing. Its rather a technical thing. Atm the game does not against enemy you foght except you hit them once before they die. Its to determine if you fought that enemy. They reduced the amount of dmg for contribution by a significant margin so you will get loot even when mainly supporting but you have to tag atleast once do the game knows from what you will get your loot from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 x.x, yes please make more healing class, so we will overheal in pvp instead of killing, 5 healers from each side, let us run and practice healing while barely scratching each other. Maybe we can push others from point with belly fight or something. Also while we are on this please make a 'king of hill' mod. Would be fun to hold single point with healing classes. while pushing others down by using very specific belly move. ;) I gotta stop . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 The thing is, you could entirely delete Tome Of Resolve from Firebrand, and it would likely still be a better support than Tempest is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said: > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs. > > > > I think this won't work they way most people think. I play Ele/Tempest and Firebrand in pvp > > Like many people said Firebrand are a healer and supporter but what makes him the first choice is his survivability his own and to some degree what the class can give to others. > > > > First is his heavy armor and high HP pool which makes him tanky. > > Second is his own heal skills and his 0 skill (can't say the name its to big for my UI) > > Third he can convert all condis on him to boons (contemplation of purity) this can be extended by using "Save yourselves" which transfer the condis of my teammates on to myself > > > > > > The big weakpoint of the Firebrand is it is built only for short to medium encounters depending on the playstyle of the user because(F1) F2 and F3 have a munition systems and relativ big CD of 40 and 50s . You can spam them and use them up in 4s or try only use when necessary but for PvE this is relative bad because often the encounters are longer then this. In theory it is enough for a fractal speed run but for this you need to compensate the lose of the dmg for not being a Druid or something like this. > > > > The logic of PvP is the opposite of the one of raids in raids dmg is all because of enrage timers ( healer = druid because dps increase boons), in pvp a bad healer is better then a dead healer. You can nerf it until it unusable but then the meta is properly no healer at all. > > > > > > Tempest has the stick that it has the lowest survivability, limited condi cleaning, no dps boons besides pre stacking a bit of might but the strongest heal. It has it palace in some raids corners and in theory it would be good also good in open PvE like Dragon Resistance or bounty hunts but there is the missing loot and event participation is a problem. In theory you can balance between Druid and healing Tempest without problem nerf the DPS boons of the Druid and at some extra to the Tempest overload problem solved. > > > > The Firebrand on the other hand is basically built for what the class is doing you could change that but then you need to change the munition system and the CDs too but then there is the big danger to create an healer which is absolute OP and dominate all endcontents. > > A lot of the things you wrote are plain wrong. Tempest and firebrand have the same health. The armor value really isn't that much of a difference, tempest takes about 10% more damage which with the tempest protection trait almost evens out. Firebrand's healing is almost all outgoing healing rather than self-healing. What makes firebrand so good is that it has answers for EVERYTHING. On top of that, you can help players past healing by preventing a LOT of damage especially at a higher level. > > You have several stunbreaks for allies, allowing you to repeatedly save your DPS specs even if they get caught. Also stab. Also cleanse. Also aegis spam rather than healing up the hits if they take them. On top of that, insane defensives (reflects, taunts, more stab, more toughness, more healing, great cleanse, great boonuptime). Most other supports don't come close and active defenses (e.g. stab, aegis, stunbreak) allowing you to avoid damgae has always been stronger than healing up the damage you unavoidably take in GW2. > > FB has no problems healing more than druid in PvE. You dont' need F2 tome to heal more than a druid; and a druid is limited by CA too. The reason it's bad is a lack of offensive buffs (25 might / alac / ...), dps modifiers, spirits, ... It can still replace 2nd druid and do very well especially on some bosses. > > Tempest heals more than FB but only if its overloads don't get interupted. Not feasible in high end PvP. It also doesn't matter if it heals more, if a FB uses their active damage mitigation then they are plain better. A lot better. Take a warrior going into rampage to smack my necro. I can quite literally block / avoid all of its hits and my nec can be full hp the moment the warrior leaves rampage if he dodges once. A tempest can heal - a huge amount - and cleanse great condies, but he'll use half his CD's to heal up the nec where i'll just apply 3 blocks. A tempest can peel and help you survive burst, but if you get focussed hard they can't do much to outheal a burst. A FB can prevent / mitigate half the burst, stunbreak you several times in a row, remove all the condies and if you survive heal you too. If you don't? Well there's always signet of mercy since MI got nerfed into the ground. > > I compared the PvP Firebrand with an plain Tempest if this is fair is question but I don't think it is completely wrong The whole list what F3 does I didn't saw a reason the repeat it it just so it comes above what I said increasing it survivability further and the survivability of the teammates same goes for the shield of absorption. Yes In the FB you have another skill for healing but it has also a CD of 50s or so Tempest is just quicker ready again which I also said is only good for some PvE corners but not for PvP other classes are better through dps boons and better condi cleansing and better protection. I didn't compare FB or Tempest to Druids heal power because simple reason... I can't I'm still leveling my ranger . The whole question of the thread was about more healing classes in PvP and like you said FB is a even better supporter then a healer . In general I die as FB 0-2 in a match while as DD even when winning 2-5 while my winning chance increase about 70% because as FB because I sit most of the time on the middle control point and blocking it. The some degree this is also the enemies fault by simply not grouping together and over powering me which in higher level pvp they do the rest is the skills and the munition system fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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