Breaking the Stacking Meta (pve)

[Hot Boy.7138]

Currently, ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons. In addition, standing outside of the stacks means you lose out on all boons and heals resulting in significantly lower damage output and decreased chance of surviving.

 

Are there any discussions being had internally to mix things up?

Such as significantly increasing boonshare and healing range and making ranged weapons as viable for damage as melee weapons. And designing boss encounters that will pose equal, but different risks for melee and ranged fighters.

 

I strongly believe that breaking the stacking meta will be healthier for the game in the long run in terms of releasing more interesting, dynamic, diversified, and challenging content.

[Loosmaster.8263]

What's stopping you from stacking with everyone else? Do you not have access to any melee weapons?

[perilisk.1874]

Isn't the real issue the downed state? That is, cleave/AoE damage is theoretically a decent counter to the boon AoE benefit of stacking, but pressing F to undo that cleave damage is too powerful, and revive is specifically a close-range ability, so spreading out is somewhat punished in that regard.

 

Fixing downed state would be the more critical step toward undermining stacking, and would help with lots of other things that are dysfunctional.

 

Just taking a crack at an improved DS mechanic:

1. The red bar constantly degenerates with time or damage, and doesn't replenish until OOC (meaning it persists across DS). As such, probably don't need to auto-kill after 4 DS.

2. Standard healing adds to a separate green bar, starting from the red bar. If the green bar reaches the right, the person is revived. If the red bar reaches the left, they die. Basically, it's a race, not a tug of war, and it gets more stacked against the healers with every DS.

3. The revive skill should be distinct from healing -- more like a finisher, an interruptible channeled skill that revives someone if it completes. The DS count could still be tracked, and used to determine the length of the channel. Just like finishers, having multiple revivers would not bring anyone back faster than having a single reviver, though it could help with interrupts.

4. The basic revive shouldn't cost a skill slot, but it should cost something other than DPS. E.g., putting the heal skill on cooldown, such that you're sacrificing some access to self-heal to heal someone else instead.

5. The DS self-heal could either be a channeled revive, or just add healing to the green bar. In either case, it might not actually be possible to outheal degeneration.

6. Cut rally chance to less than 100% for creatures below vet rank. 33%, 50%, whatever. Otherwise, adds can make it too easy to rally.

7. No reviving defeated players in combat. Maybe defeated NPCs, if it would otherwise make some events too difficult or annoying.

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> What's stopping you from stacking with everyone else? Do you not have access to any melee weapons?

 

What's wrong with you?

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> Isn't the real issue the downed state? That is, cleave/AoE damage is theoretically a decent counter to the boon AoE benefit of stacking, but pressing F to undo that cleave damage is too powerful, and revive is specifically a close-range ability, so spreading out is somewhat punished in that regard.

>

> Fixing downed state would be the more critical step toward undermining stacking, and would help with lots of other things that are dysfunctional.

>

> Just taking a crack at an improved DS mechanic:

> 1. The red bar constantly degenerates with time or damage, and doesn't replenish until OOC (meaning it persists across DS). As such, probably don't need to auto-kill after 4 DS.

> 2. Standard healing adds to a separate green bar, starting from the red bar. If the green bar reaches the right, the person is revived. If the red bar reaches the left, they die. Basically, it's a race, not a tug of war, and it gets more stacked against the healers with every DS.

> 3. The revive skill should be distinct from healing -- more like a finisher, an interruptible channeled skill that revives someone if it completes. The DS count could still be tracked, and used to determine the length of the channel. Just like finishers, having multiple revivers would not bring anyone back faster than having a single reviver, though it could help with interrupts.

> 4. The basic revive shouldn't cost a skill slot, but it should cost something other than DPS. E.g., putting the heal skill on cooldown, such that you're sacrificing some access to self-heal to heal someone else instead.

> 5. The DS self-heal could either be a channeled revive, or just add healing to the green bar. In either case, it might not actually be possible to outheal degeneration.

> 6. Cut rally chance to less than 100% for creatures below vet rank. 33%, 50%, whatever. Otherwise, adds can make it too easy to rally.

> 7. No reviving defeated players in combat. Maybe defeated NPCs, if it would otherwise make some events too difficult or annoying.

 

This has nothing to do with my post at all. Why don't you make a separate thread for this?

[InsaneQR.7412]

Ranged weaponry is lower risk to lower reward so lower dmg is justified.

The boon application area could be increased to make up for the stacking part though but i am rather oblivious how to accomplish such a thing in an intelligent balanced way. .

Mid range isnt such an issue though and mid ranged weapons like most one handed range weapons or shortbow do not have a stacking issue IMO.

Only stuff like LB, riffles and staffs really suffwr from this.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> This has nothing to do with my post at all. Why don't you make a separate thread for this?

 

Doesn't it? Could have sworn this was about stacking meta, and downstate/revive is at least as much a contributor as boons/healing, if not moreso -- and for mostly the same reasons. Too powerful in a stack, mostly unavailable when spread out.

 

Not saying you have to agree with that assessment, but it certainly goes to the point.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> Currently, ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons. In addition, standing outside of the stacks means you lose out on all boons and heals resulting in significantly lower damage output and decreased chance of surviving.

 

You can go in melee range and get all the boons and buffs using a ranged weapon... that's how Rifle Holosmiths, Shortbow Soulbeasts and others worked and still work. A "ranged" weapon doesn't need to be far away from the target, with the only exceptions being Ranger Longbow and Mesmer Greatsword with their auto skills dealing more damage with range. Ranged characters have much more time to react to typical PVE boss attacks and are not even targeted by all the boss attacks because a lot of them are melee range only. Increasing the range of boons will only make encounters dumb as players will simply kite from maximum possible range and trivialize all encounters. Plus, increasing the boon share range would have a serious adverse effect on WvW, PvP and even open world PVE. In the case of the first two, it would allow those sharing the boons to stay back and buff their team mates while they stay away of trouble. In PVP specifically, it would make a bunker like Firebrand not only contest the node they are standing on (that you can ignore and play around) but a much larger area. based on how long this new boon range will be. Meanwhile in Open world PVE it will be hard to prioritize your boons to those that you want.

 

Overall, increasing boon range isn't a very good idea.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > What's stopping you from stacking with everyone else? Do you not have access to any melee weapons?

>

> What's wrong with you?

 

Nothing. I can ask the same of you. You want the boons, stack. It's not hard...

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > What's stopping you from stacking with everyone else? Do you not have access to any melee weapons?

> >

> > What's wrong with you?

>

> Nothing. I can ask the same of you. You want the boons, stack. It's not hard...

 

I don't jump on people's thread asking stupid questions, so no, you can't ask the same of me. Something is wrong with you. Before you talk, you should think to yourself, "is what i'm saying adding to the discussion."

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > Currently, ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons. In addition, standing outside of the stacks means you lose out on all boons and heals resulting in significantly lower damage output and decreased chance of surviving.

>

> You can go in melee range and get all the boons and buffs using a ranged weapon... that's how Rifle Holosmiths, Shortbow Soulbeasts and others worked and still work. A "ranged" weapon doesn't need to be far away from the target, with the only exceptions being Ranger Longbow and Mesmer Greatsword with their auto skills dealing more damage with range. Ranged characters have much more time to react to typical PVE boss attacks and are not even targeted by all the boss attacks because a lot of them are melee range only. Increasing the range of boons will only make encounters dumb as players will simply kite from maximum possible range and trivialize all encounters. Plus, increasing the boon share range would have a serious adverse effect on WvW, PvP and even open world PVE. In the case of the first two, it would allow those sharing the boons to stay back and buff their team mates while they stay away of trouble. In PVP specifically, it would make a bunker like Firebrand not only contest the node they are standing on (that you can ignore and play around) but a much larger area. based on how long this new boon range will be. Meanwhile in Open world PVE it will be hard to prioritize your boons to those that you want.

>

> Overall, increasing boon range isn't a very good idea.

 

I'm looking toward the future. You are looking backwards. I'm thinking of future encounter designs. Not the current that is based on stacking. I'm thinking of what future encounter designs would be like without a stacking meta in mind.

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > This has nothing to do with my post at all. Why don't you make a separate thread for this?

>

> Doesn't it? Could have sworn this was about stacking meta, and downstate/revive is at least as much a contributor as boons/healing, if not moreso -- and for mostly the same reasons. Too powerful in a stack, mostly unavailable when spread out.

>

> Not saying you have to agree with that assessment, but it certainly goes to the point.

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > This has nothing to do with my post at all. Why don't you make a separate thread for this?

>

> Doesn't it? Could have sworn this was about stacking meta, and downstate/revive is at least as much a contributor as boons/healing, if not moreso -- and for mostly the same reasons. Too powerful in a stack, mostly unavailable when spread out.

>

> Not saying you have to agree with that assessment, but it certainly goes to the point.

 

You went off, in great detail, on a tangent about what you feel is wrong with downed state. Just make a thread about down state.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > > What's stopping you from stacking with everyone else? Do you not have access to any melee weapons?

> > >

> > > What's wrong with you?

> >

> > Nothing. I can ask the same of you. You want the boons, stack. It's not hard...

>

> I don't jump on people's thread asking stupid questions, so no, you can't ask the same of me. Something is wrong with you. Before you talk, you should think to yourself, "is what i'm saying adding to the discussion."

 

Lol. Enjoy your one sided view...

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> I'm looking toward the future. You are looking backwards. I'm thinking of future encounter designs. Not the current that is based on stacking. I'm thinking of what future encounter designs would be like without a stacking meta in mind.

 

I already explained the problems of increasing the range of boons and heals, no amount of "encounter design" can take care of that. Allowing players to heal others while staying far back isn't good for the game, allowing players to earn the same damage and healing buffs while staying at a **safe** distance isn't good for the game either. I know what you will say "but they could make future designs to work around that!". Even if that was possible (it's not), there are multiple problems, first, they can't change that in PVP modes, that's fundamentally impossible, don't even think about it. Second you are asking for them to go back and re-tweak every single old encounter to account for such a huge change, otherwise this change would make zero sense since it would destroy all current encounters in the game. Unless these skills with the higher range of boons and healing will only be available in new content and not appear in old content at all, which is highly unlikely as well.

 

Also, your suggestion falls flat when the highest DPS comes from ranged weapons (used in melee range) and second, there can't be a boss that attacks all players equally at the same time. Only bosses that do that are Raid bosses with their damaging auras that hit everyone equally. That's the only "mechanic" that can attack everyone equally. Even bosses like Chak Gerent (that attacks all ranged players equally) have extra melee attacks that make sense for it to have, can't really design all your bosses without any melee attacks can you?

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > I'm looking toward the future. You are looking backwards. I'm thinking of future encounter designs. Not the current that is based on stacking. I'm thinking of what future encounter designs would be like without a stacking meta in mind.

>

> I already explained the problems of increasing the range of boons and heals, no amount of "encounter design" can take care of that. Allowing players to heal others while staying far back isn't good for the game, allowing players to earn the same damage and healing buffs while staying at a **safe** distance isn't good for the game either. I know what you will say "but they could make future designs to work around that!". Even if that was possible (it's not), there are multiple problems, first, they can't change that in PVP modes, that's fundamentally impossible, don't even think about it. Second you are asking for them to go back and re-tweak every single old encounter to account for such a huge change, otherwise this change would make zero sense since it would destroy all current encounters in the game. Unless these skills with the higher range of boons and healing will only be available in new content and not appear in old content at all, which is highly unlikely as well.

>

> Also, your suggestion falls flat when the highest DPS comes from ranged weapons (used in melee range) and second, there can't be a boss that attacks all players equally at the same time. Only bosses that do that are Raid bosses with their damaging auras that hit everyone equally. That's the only "mechanic" that can attack everyone equally. Even bosses like Chak Gerent (that attacks all ranged players equally) have extra melee attacks that make sense for it to have, can't really design all your bosses without any melee attacks can you?

 

I'm not asking for old encounters to redone at all. Old encounters should remain as they are. MMOs are always changing, and sometimes new designs trivialize old content. Such is the case with all MMOs. We have seen it plenty already in guild wars 2. It's just the nature of the genre. As I said, you are looking backwards. My friend, get used to change.

 

Have you raided in other games? In most other games that have awesome pve content and a very active raiding scene, boonshare and healing are long range. This is the only game i've played with a stacking meta. Those games seem to be doing quite well for themselves, and in some ways, better than Guild wars 2 when it comes to end game pve content such as raiding.

 

My suggestion doesn't fall flat because you can use a ranged weapon in melee range. The point of a ranged weapon is that you aren't limited by range. Some people prefer ranged, some prefer melee. It comes down to preference. I personally prefer melee. However, i've done lots of raiding in other games and know that stacking meta is a big limiter when it comes to designing encounters. The devs need to always plan for the fact that players need to be stacked to get heals and to do receive enough boons to do enough damage to the boss.

 

You have to broaden your mind. Bosses are fantasy monsters and can be designed any way. Stating that melee will always have it harder shows how small you are thinking. They can design a boss without melee attacks. They can design a boss without ranged attacks, with ranged attacks, with ranged and melee, with this , with that, without this, without that, they can design any kind of boss if they are not limited to a stacking meta.

 

Just as an example, I once did a raid boss fight in another game that was based totally on healing. As crazy as that sounds, it was so cool and refreshing to see the devs thinking outside of the box coming up with unique encounters. The healers had ress a dragon back to full health, while the dps and and tank managed the increasing waves of difficult adds. Some adds only the ranged could deal with because they would explode, and others the melee would deal with. Tanks took "vet" mobs, It was really exciting.

 

All i'm saying is, stop looking backwards. Broaden your mind and look forward. Stop holding on to old content. It's inevitable that some content will be trivialized by future changes.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> Have you raided in other games? In most other games that have awesome pve content and a very active raiding scene, boonshare and healing are long range. This is the only game i've played with a stacking meta. Those games seem to be doing quite well for themselves, and in some ways, better than Guild wars 2 when it comes to end game pve content such as raiding.

 

In other games you click on your allies to heal them and buff them. That's not in Guild Wars 2 and is highly unlikely to ever be implemented. Also, the idea in every other raiding mmorpg I've tried is for one person (the tank) or in some cases an off-tank to stay in melee range, draw the hate of the boss while everyone else dps and heal from afar. Is this what you want this game to turn into? What about bosses without a dedicated tank? That's what will limit their encounter design, not broaden it.

 

> My suggestion doesn't fall flat because you can use a ranged weapon in melee range.

 

It does because you can use a ranged weapon perfectly in melee range. You can use any weapon you want (with only 2 exceptions) and stay in melee range just fine. You know, in the range where it's harder to stay alive.

 

> All i'm saying is, stop looking backwards. Broaden your mind and look forward. Stop holding on to old content. It's inevitable that some content will be trivialized by future changes.

 

And this why -such- a change to the game won't be implemented, and shouldn't be implemented either. You should really start reading what I post too, because you are really only focusing on Raiding while this kind of charge would destroy any competitive modes completely.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> Currently, ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons. In addition, standing outside of the stacks means you lose out on all boons and heals resulting in significantly lower damage output and decreased chance of surviving.

>

> Are there any discussions being had internally to mix things up?

> Such as significantly increasing boonshare and healing range and making ranged weapons as viable for damage as melee weapons. And designing boss encounters that will pose equal, but different risks for melee and ranged fighters.

>

> I strongly believe that breaking the stacking meta will be healthier for the game in the long run in terms of releasing more interesting, dynamic, diversified, and challenging content.

 

You're trying to solve the problem the wrong way. If you want to prohibit stacking you need to reduce the number of boons shared and the range so that you can not feasibly cover the entire party in any space. However doing so invalidates several design goals of certain classes and mechanics like aura's.

 

A quick and dirty solution would be to neuter the uptime of all shared boons but increase each individual players capability to generate meaningful might and fury for themselves. I sincerely doubt Anet will trend this way though as it puts too much emphasis on individual responsiblity and ultimately limits build diversity.

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > Currently, ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons. In addition, standing outside of the stacks means you lose out on all boons and heals resulting in significantly lower damage output and decreased chance of surviving.

> >

> > Are there any discussions being had internally to mix things up?

> > Such as significantly increasing boonshare and healing range and making ranged weapons as viable for damage as melee weapons. And designing boss encounters that will pose equal, but different risks for melee and ranged fighters.

> >

> > I strongly believe that breaking the stacking meta will be healthier for the game in the long run in terms of releasing more interesting, dynamic, diversified, and challenging content.

>

> You're trying to solve the problem the wrong way. If you want to prohibit stacking you need to reduce the number of boons shared and the range so that you can not feasibly cover the entire party in any space. However doing so invalidates several design goals of certain classes and mechanics like aura's.

>

> A quick and dirty solution would be to neuter the uptime of all shared boons but increase each individual players capability to generate meaningful might and fury for themselves. I sincerely doubt Anet will trend this way though as it puts too much emphasis on individual responsiblity and ultimately limits build diversity.

 

My intention isn't to prohibit stacking. My intention is for them remove limiters that is blocking them from creating more varied and interesting PvE endgame boss encounter designs. Stacking may be the best strat on some bosses, but it shouldn't always be the best strat. I'd like to see more varied content, and even more build diversity by making more weapon types viable alternatives

[Gambit.9501]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Plus, increasing the boon share range would have a serious adverse effect on WvW, PvP and even open world PVE.

> Meanwhile in Open world PVE it will be hard to prioritize your boons to those that you want.

>

> Overall, increasing boon range isn't a very good idea.

 

...How in the hell would increased boon support range break _any_ part of PvE whatsoever??? You already have a hard time prioritizing your boons in zergs to begin with due to mass stacking... the only way you can reliably prioritize is by putting 4 other people in a squad group with you to guarantee that those people always receive your boons/heals. Increasing support radius would not change a lick of that, whatsoever. Herald facets have been able to pulse boons to 600-unit radius since release and nobody has concerns with that. I'm having a very hard time understanding this logic.

 

I understand the implications of changing this in PvP, but not PvE...

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Gambit.9501" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Plus, increasing the boon share range would have a serious adverse effect on WvW, PvP and even open world PVE.

> > Meanwhile in Open world PVE it will be hard to prioritize your boons to those that you want.

> >

> > Overall, increasing boon range isn't a very good idea.

>

> ...How in the hell would increased boon support range break _any_ part of PvE whatsoever??? You already have a hard time prioritizing your boons in zergs to begin with due to mass stacking... the only way you can reliably prioritize is by putting 4 other people in a squad group with you to guarantee that those people always receive your boons/heals. Increasing support radius would not change a lick of that, whatsoever. Herald facets have been able to pulse boons to 600-unit radius since release and nobody has concerns with that. I'm having a very hard time understanding this logic.

>

> I understand the implications of changing this in PvP, but not PvE...

 

Problem is, they aren't able to fully skill split between the modes..

 

So.... when a change benefits PvP or WvW, PVE gets the shaft. But when something benefits PvE, it tends to break WvW and / or PvP.

 

Thinking somethomg might solve an issue in one mode, is great, but pointing out how it will negatively impact another mode isn't derailing a thread as was assumed by a different poster.

[Rettan.9603]

To cancel an stacking meta they should not buff anything... i mean... whats wrong with stacking?

 

There are ways to ~~fix~~ change that, for example: add body blocks and collision :-P maybe not easy to implement, but will make so many aspects of the game more interesting. (Take a look on GW1 for it! In PvP for example was good positioning and body blocks a key aspect.)

Or simply design content for it. Some raid bosses have phases where the group have to stay split. That's okay.

 

I think stacking is not a big problem in the game. A bit boring and for sure not logic, but not a problem.

[maddoctor.2738]

You know how the developers already "counter" stacking? By making splitting mechanics, like green circles on Vale Guardian, cannons and timed bomb on Sabetha, poison on Slothasor, and loads more. Most bosses have mechanics that require players to move away of each other or face punishment. That's how they counter stacking, using interesting mechanics.