Constructive Suggestions for Stealth and Thief.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> TL;DR : this rework would delete stealth from PvP, I'm still against this. Trim DE stealth, leave stealth as a mechanic alone.

 

your right that the encounters in spvp are far more predictable wich would make true sight there alot stronger than in WvW.

this rework would delete invisbility form spvp correct, not stealth. the range of true sight could be mode dependent. because in WvW you need ~2k range considering with such a stealth they can hit you from 1500 range and there is no reason to come closer, no point to contest and plenty of time to walk a long arc when LoS is broken. in spvp it certainly could be reduced so you can hide your movement with stealth.

 

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> DE was fine before the rework (apart from the camp in stealth for half a minute cancer), I almost got my top 25 title with it, the mid-season rework kittened me up.

 

you didnt get top 25 with camping stealth as that is not efficient. there is absolutely nothing efficient about camping stealth for long.

camping stealth before an encounter wont make much of a difference if you camp there for 5 seconds or 30 minutes, if you stack stealth to leave an encounter doesnt matter if you keep stacking stealth for 1 minute while slowly walking away or using 5s stealth to cover your movement skills but the longer stealth is less efficient. if you stack long stealth during a fight it will be a reset for your opponent aswell.

remaining in stealth is not what makes deadeye strong, weaving stealth with a range weapon is the issue. attacking from range most builds need to target their opponent and close the gap first and they only have short time till you reenter stealth and appear to another side shortly after.

 

there is only 1 thing were camping stealth is actually really good in WvW. to capture towers/keeps by hiding inside. but that is only good because it demands something of the opponent, that is not intuitiv. many try to force a fight if they notice someone stealthed inside, but thats pretty stupid. that leads to either them dying themselves or they need to stack too many people to get a stale situation wich again is not efficient for the mode as one person would bind multiple. what you need to do is leave the tower/keep, because then you force the deadeye to leave stealth and go for the lord or be inefficient. with that you kind of control the deadeye and can then gank him at lord. obviously you shouldnt sent your minstrel guard to gank that deadeye.

i think its similar with a bunker in spvp, if you leave them alone on a spot that will become inefficient for him to stay there alone. and i am sure in lower tiers people wont ever leave a bunker alone.

so stealth camping altho an issue some bring ahead in WvW frequently is mostly an issue of l2p IMO.

 

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> You're forced to go for the oneshot kill, because in a battle longer then a second you don't stand a chance. True Sight doesn't fix the "no counterplay to burst from stealth" problem, if anything it would amplify it.

 

i thought in spvp you play as a thief for frontloaded damage anyway.

if you use stealth with SA you stand a chance with the above changes even with true sight. if you use it without SA, you usually have other means to keep yourself in the fight if needed. be it range advantage, CC, evades, mobility.

no counterplay to burst from stealth is also adressed above as you wouldnt be bursting as much from stealth to a target without true sight.

 

the main thing i wanted to adress is weaving stealth, as that leaves little room to counterpressure when it is done with a range weapon. i wanted to instead give the thief options to take some more hits with keeping the SA benefits while visible to one opponent and give their opponent a chance to actually reach the thief. this way you mostly would only have to deal with one opponent at a time aswell, so you dont need as much scaling defense like evades/mobility instead damage reductions and condition removes gain in value.

 

for most opponents i dont need to go back in stealth often so most changes to only stealth access or reveals in the game wont matter in even fights. yet that is what people keep proposing, thats nerfs that dont fix their issue.

maybe a less extreme change would be better for start like the one @"Sir Vincent III.1286" proposed that reveal only counters invisbility not stealth itself. with that a little more reveal could be added before it would render bringing stealth useless.

or maybe you have a better idea. no/low tell opening bursts from stealth and range weaving stealth are the main issues with stealth. maybe you have an idea how to adress that, without affecting too much other usages of stealth like hiding movement in conquest or hiding presence in WvW (pretty much the same just different mode).

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I'm not a massive fan of the proposed rework here, as it would have far reaching effects on so many builds and classes and runs the risk of killing off stealth thieves entirely. That said, revealed is too hard a counter to stealth, which means shadow meld is currently necessary to stop encounters being rock paper scissors in the opponent's favour. Revealed needs reworking into something that isn't such a hard counter to stealth, that way it could be more widely distributed, stealth could be left as it is and shadow meld would become a non issue as a consequence.

 

The main reason I use SA in WvW is the condi cleanse and the stealth on mark which is a direct response to the ganky condi spam mindset that permeates the mode. The rest I could take or leave tbh. It's important to note that it's not actually SA that grants permastealth for the most part, it's the ability to get stealth using resources other than ini and utilities, daredevil works the same way with bound and can get comparable opening backstab damage to deadeye if built for it, so to me perma stealth and high opening spike damage is a non issue here as it's not deadeye specific. That leaves the range, and the way malicious backstab increases damage with malice. The entire point of deadeye is to be the range spec, so to me the high malice backstabs is the only deadeye specific thing that could use toning down.

 

And frankly if the backstabs were toned down I wouldn't have a problem. I'd just deal with it, or go back to rifle S/D which is a spec I find infinitely more fun. I just have a hard time justifying it's use when D/P is so obviously better at the moment.

 

So I don't know. I get the feeling most of the hate to DE is because it emphasises the parts of the class that non thieves hate, but that said they were gonna make a stealth themed elite spec sooner or later so what do people expect. If ANet is content to let mirage, weaver and others run around one shotting people I don't see why the class that's descended from assassins shouldn't be able to. *shrugs*

[MUDse.7623]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741"

in the op is only my suggestion. yet i ask for further suggestions, that dont have to necessarily do anything with my suggestion.

 

what would you say to @"Sir Vincent III.1286" 's suggestion above making the reveal effect just make the target visible and not break the stealth effect as such? so it would still allow for SA and stealth attacks till stealth is broken, by hitting for example.

 

while at it sir vincent if reveal only removes invisibility not the stealth, does it still prevent you from appyling new stealth while keeping you visible? with that we could after an attack faster enter stealth and already get SA defense waiting for reveal to tick off , to get invisibile again :3

and for your thieves seeing each other in stealth, could this be made general? like when you are in stealth you see others that also are in stealth and if its just their half invisible silhouette when closer than 600 units.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741"

> in the op is only my suggestion.

>

> what would you say to @"Sir Vincent III.1286" 's suggestion above making the reveal effect just make the target visible and not break the stealth effect as such? so it would still allow for SA and stealth attacks till stealth is broken, by hitting for example.

 

I know it's your suggestion in the OP, don't worry ^^ I appreciate the thought you gave to the problem, it's something I've thought about but couldn't see a clear solution that didn't involve a LOT of changes.

 

I could see that working, although if reveal simply made the player visible but still under the effects of stealth, would that just be visible to the player who cast the reveal? If so, I could see splitting reveal skills into single target (just revealing for the player who cast it) and AoE (revealing for everyone), which would allow more reveal skills to be introduced without necessarily screwing over the thief in every instance. I'm still more of the opinion that it's actually the damage that people are salty about not the stealth, since permastealth was largely ignored before deadeye and it's increased spike damage, but what Sir Vincent says is something that could work with less major changes to everything with stealth access.

 

As to your edit, you're right, self reveal from attacking out of stealth should be seperate from reveal applied to the thief, and it should remain the same as it is now, no new stealth and visible to everyone. That means shadow meld would still have a purpose after a backstab to try to get a cheeky stomp, but the new revealed effect applied to the thief externally could introduce counterplay without being so one sided.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741"

> > in the op is only my suggestion.

> >

> > what would you say to @"Sir Vincent III.1286" 's suggestion above making the reveal effect just make the target visible and not break the stealth effect as such? so it would still allow for SA and stealth attacks till stealth is broken, by hitting for example.

>

> I know it's your suggestion in the OP, don't worry ^^ I appreciate the thought you gave to the problem, it's something I've thought about but couldn't see a clear solution that didn't involve a LOT of changes.

>

i know that the suggestion in my OP involves too many changes, so it could only be done with a major rework. the issue with small changes i think is that they often wont change much in the actual fight, leaving the same complaints and causing more and more changes or even nerfs.

 

 

[reddie.5861]

Stealth isn't problem.

 

Never had been never will be.

Mobility is everyone's problem but they can't see it as problem because we come out of stealth.

Remove mobility from your thief or just play without mobility on your thief play like a guardian relay on swiftness and that's it.

 

Now you'll see your thief is shit with stealth or without.

I mean thief in wvw isn't anymore the thief that it used to be in roaming section back in the days thief was far better.

Nowadays most classes have been buffed up so much they deal tons of dmg and have sustain think only thief and mesmer do not have sustain but mobility.

 

Seriously mobility for us is like sustain for guard and warrior.

 

Take away warriors and guard sustain and they are useless take away our mobility and we are done also.

 

Take away our stealth and not much will change in my eyes, can still pick the fights can still choose to disengage or to reset etc do not need stealth for this.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> the main thing i wanted to adress is weaving stealth, as that leaves little room to counterpressure when it is done with a range weapon.

 

Permastealth was always possible with (or even without) Shadow Arts. The way I play it for example, using the elite and the dodgerolls is mostly reserved for combat situations, I use the core thief kit to stealth the team before the first encounter, to stealth before disengageing for a decap etc.

Also I don't see why weaving stealth is something you need to counter. If you should be on the offense(with less then 2 points capped), camping stealth means you're being useless. The ability to stealth on demand is sure annoying and somewhat OP, but prolonging it is just a bad decision in any situation.

 

I see how it can be a problem for some WvW-ers, but I don't care. Camping stealth to hunt for other players only works in a very niche part of the game (solo roaming with a slow/stealthless build in raid DPS armor, how the f-word could you make that balanced?)

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

>i wanted to instead give the thief options to take some more hits with keeping the SA benefits while visible to one opponent and give their opponent a chance to actually reach the thief.

 

4 seconds of reveal every time you break stealth, thats their window. And meta powerbuilds can almost instantly down you with your 17K hp, and decent/good sPvP players are really trying. If you ever feel like noone gives you enough attention, just play DE in high plat. Even with the build being relatively simple, having to avoid EVERYTHING is what makes playing it fun. Giving the thief options to tank hits goes against everything what a thief should be anyway, so I disagree with what you're trying to do here.

Thief is meant to die to 2-3 well placed attacks, don't give it any passive defenses or the class loses its flavour.

(Im mostly against your idea of doubling stealth because it moves it towards being more passive aswell)

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> maybe a less extreme change would be better for start like the one @"Sir Vincent III.1286" proposed that reveal only counters invisbility not stealth itself.

 

What does that even mean? Those words stand for the same thing in this game. What would stealth be if it wasn't making you invisible? What would its effect be?

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> or maybe you have a better idea. no/low tell opening bursts from stealth and range weaving stealth are the main issues with stealth. maybe you have an idea how to adress that, without affecting too much other usages of stealth like hiding movement in conquest or hiding presence in WvW (pretty much the same just different mode).

 

I already mentioned a possible solution: normalise damage by getting rid of pesky PvE stats and skill balance. If everyone is confined to amulets and cant rely on consumables, damage numbers would drop drasicly on these gimmicky builds. Also the 4 second reveal instead of the PvE version of 3 seconds would give the newbies a better window to react.

Pros for this idea: would destroy oneshot builds. Cons: would throw WvW into chaos. (Wink wink nudge nude possible weekend event idea?)

[SoulSin.5682]

I am not a big fan of nerfing stealth anymore because its being 6 years new players are complaining about it as well it has been 6 years since most experienced players have never seen any problem with it.

 

Either way, what I would suggest regarding stealth is prolly a QoL regardless of how stealth works for your opponent.

 

**Examples of QoLchanges:**

- Or Make so a small "shadow" of the thief is left "in the air" in the same position as the thief was in the moment it enters stealth. That would grant you 2 pieces of information: the direction the thief was running on and the feedback someone is invisible around you (in case you weren't paying attention to the class with stealth).

- Or make the stealth a "fade in" effect, meaning that you can still see the thief for 0,5 seconds after the stealth triggers. Same feedback as above.

- Improve the way tab targeting works: like adding filter rules to it. Like for example you can have a hotkey with a specific filter to tab targeting that will always target the closest Thief/Mesmer with priority over other targets (other MMos have mechanics like that). This makes retargetting a thief when he leaves stealth faster assuming that you actually cared to make an extra button for it.

 

 

 

This won't change Stealth at its core, but granting more information makes creating counter measures more instinctive to all players that can't fight something invisible.

 

**Now talking about possible "NERFS" to stealth that wouldn't break current mechanics:**

- Or make the "shadow" feedback listed above appears EVERYTIME the thief stacks stealth. Even if on stealth. Meaning that you will always have the visible feedback of where the thief was when he add another stack of stealth. (Downside: would be direct nerf to Shadow Refuge as well as D/P builds).

- Or Add a radius to stealth. Basically the game will remember the last spot you entered stealth and will add a wide 1200 units circle around it. Regardless of amount of stealth time you would break stealth (not revelead) if you leave that circle. This basically would grant the players the feedback that the Thief is inside that area, and that he needs to reapear somewhere to reapply stealth if he wants more range. That range would be a good nerf to perma stealth builds since you can no longer stealth and walk kilometers invisible. (Downsides: Mobility skills become more limited with stealth due to range).

 

 

Those suggestions are not perfect but wouldn't nerf the way any of the current builds work. They would only give "pulses" of feedback to your opponents when you are on stealth or stacking it.

 

On another subject, I am against changing the way revealed skills works. I totally agree with the fact you need to target the thief to reveal him.

As many mentioned, in the current meta its easy to down a thief in 4 seconds. Having a skill that extends that time is already good enough for the skilled players to work with. The concept of "press a button, now i can see the thief" is a lazy and terrible way to solve the problem, due the way stealth skills interact with each class.

 

 

**Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

- On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

- Just add a internal cooldown for the stealth on dodge already. There is no need to remove permanent stealth, but the Thieves NEED to invest more on stealth to make it works. That's how Core Thief and DD always worked out and I don't understand what ANET was thinking when they made DE so effortlessly to stack stealth.

- DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

- Shadow meld now works like mantras and only cleanses revealed on the last ammo.

 

That's some of my suggestions.

 

PS: @"MUDse.7623" I am also not a big fan to your mechanic change. I would literally quit this game if they change the way stealth works.

I like the way it currently is.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

 

Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

 

> - Just add a internal cooldown for the stealth on dodge already. There is no need to remove permanent stealth, but the Thieves NEED to invest more on stealth to make it works. That's how Core Thief and DD always worked out and I don't understand what ANET was thinking when they made DE so effortlessly to stack stealth.

 

I didn't have a problem with the way kneel worked initially, so having similar stealth access to that would be fine. That said the deadeye build people are complaining about already does invest in SA, what more investment should be necessary? I like the way it forces you to trade dodges for stealth given dodges are a scarcer resource on deadeye than daredevil, which can still permastealth and has the same initial backstab damage as said above, core thief maybe needs more investment but daredevil doesn't.

 

> - DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

 

This looks good on paper, but unless you bait dodges or +1 you won't hit a good enemy at range with DJ. I actually find shadowstepping close to them before using DJ so the projectile flight time is reduced is way more reliable than quickness on the animation, so removing the interaction with quickness won't really change a lot for me.

 

> - Shadow meld now works like mantras and only cleanses revealed on the last ammo.

 

So what's the point in having it under the ammo system if only the last charge removes revealed? Might as well just remove the ammo and have it as a straight 45s cooldown if that's what you're going to do.

 

I like your suggestion of stealth application leaving an aftershadow, to me that would be sufficient as it would warn people there's a thief about. That's all it needs imo.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> >i wanted to instead give the thief options to take some more hits with keeping the SA benefits while visible to one opponent and give their opponent a chance to actually reach the thief.

>

> 4 seconds of reveal every time you break stealth, thats their window. And meta powerbuilds can almost instantly down you with your 17K hp, and decent/good sPvP players are really trying. If you ever feel like noone gives you enough attention, just play DE in high plat. Even with the build being relatively simple, having to avoid EVERYTHING is what makes playing it fun. Giving the thief options to tank hits goes against everything what a thief should be anyway, so I disagree with what you're trying to do here.

> Thief is meant to die to 2-3 well placed attacks, don't give it any passive defenses or the class loses its flavour.

i know that it is fun for the thief to avoid EVERYTHNG, i mean thats probably a part of why i play it. but when done too well my opponents keep complaining that the fight is unfun as i dont even give them a chance to do something. DE especially avoids most counterplay with its setup not with its reaction like DD/core, that makes it feel cheesier for the opponent. like when i need to dodge their stuff right etc. then i still may fail but if i already have more or less won by setup, then the only thing they can try is run, wich i dont think is really fun to them. for them to beat a deadeye they have to bait the deadeye into choosing the wrong way to start the fight, they have to suprise the deadeye. a fight against a deadeye wont be decided by mechanical fails, like many other fights can be.

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > maybe a less extreme change would be better for start like the one @"Sir Vincent III.1286" proposed that reveal only counters invisbility not stealth itself.

>

> What does that even mean? Those words stand for the same thing in this game. What would stealth be if it wasn't making you invisible? What would its effect be?

the point is that then you are revealed and have the stealth effect, wich then incase for a ranger for example is the same as reveal now. but for a thief who has more tied to the stealth effect, you dont strip them of more. so you are visible but as long as you have stealth you still would profit from any stealth trait and stealth attacks.

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > or maybe you have a better idea. no/low tell opening bursts from stealth and range weaving stealth are the main issues with stealth. maybe you have an idea how to adress that, without affecting too much other usages of stealth like hiding movement in conquest or hiding presence in WvW (pretty much the same just different mode).

>

> I already mentioned a possible solution: normalise damage by getting rid of pesky PvE stats and skill balance. If everyone is confined to amulets and cant rely on consumables, damage numbers would drop drasicly on these gimmicky builds. Also the 4 second reveal instead of the PvE version of 3 seconds would give the newbies a better window to react.

> Pros for this idea: would destroy oneshot builds. Cons: would throw WvW into chaos. (Wink wink nudge nude possible weekend event idea?)

i am not convinced that gear/food would change much. because against glassy opponents i am doing alot of overkill. the only opponents were i even need the PvE power stats are the ones using PvE tank stuff. and many roamers run a lot more defensive than you could in sPvP from gear/rune etc choice.

but certainly worth a try. yet i think many underestimate the difference in the encounters between spvp and WvW. the situation is different. i am not pressed for time, i have tons of space i can use, that changes ALOT.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> **Examples of QoLchanges:**

> - Or Make so a small "shadow" of the thief is left "in the air" in the same position as the thief was in the moment it enters stealth. That would grant you 2 pieces of information: the direction the thief was running on and the feedback someone is invisible around you (in case you weren't paying attention to the class with stealth).

> - Or make the stealth a "fade in" effect, meaning that you can still see the thief for 0,5 seconds after the stealth triggers. Same feedback as above.

 

that would be fine, yet if it is only were the thief entered stealth, that means the thief was already in the FoV of the opponent visibly.

 

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> - Improve the way tab targeting works: like adding filter rules to it. Like for example you can have a hotkey with a specific filter to tab targeting that will always target the closest Thief/Mesmer with priority over other targets (other MMos have mechanics like that). This makes retargetting a thief when he leaves stealth faster assuming that you actually cared to make an extra button for it.

i would really like optional keybinds to target specific professions not just mesmer / thief, every profession. that would help in group fights.

 

> On another subject, I am against changing the way revealed skills works. I totally agree with the fact you need to target the thief to reveal him.

> As many mentioned, in the current meta its easy to down a thief in 4 seconds. Having a skill that extends that time is already good enough for the skilled players to work with. The concept of "press a button, now i can see the thief" is a lazy and terrible way to solve the problem, due the way stealth skills interact with each class.

 

thats correct aslong as reveal counters way more than just being invisible, it has to be unreliable and avoidable for most parts.

 

> **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

the issue is that would mainly nerf core/DD because the base malicious backstab is a normal backstab. you can get same OHKO as 1 malice MBackstab with a daredevil build more or less. either we are fine with base backstab or we are not, one could add a tell to the skill itself so the target can react to it (more or less like DJ) but then it would need to be easier to setup. as difficult setup + easier avoidable = not worth trying.

> - Just add a internal cooldown for the stealth on dodge already. There is no need to remove permanent stealth, but the Thieves NEED to invest more on stealth to make it works. That's how Core Thief and DD always worked out and I don't understand what ANET was thinking when they made DE so effortlessly to stack stealth.

there was a cooldown that was resettable with kneel. the idea is that endurance gain is your cooldown, wich is at base 10s for one dodge and that would be the same cooldown as old kneel for stealth. if i invest more into endurance i lose on something else. core cannot utilize its endurance for stealth gain and DD can effortlessly stack stealth with bound aswell wich also uses endurance. or would you say that a dodge is less valuable than a few seconds of stealth?

> - Shadow meld now works like mantras and only cleanses revealed on the last ammo.

with that if you get revealed you would spamm your first charge(s) into 'immune' messages till you cleanse the reveal? i would prefer reducing it to 1 charge than to that.

 

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > - DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

>

> This looks good on paper, but unless you bait dodges or +1 you won't hit a good enemy at range with DJ. I actually find shadowstepping close to them before using DJ so the projectile flight time is reduced is way more reliable than quickness on the animation, so removing the interaction with quickness won't really change a lot for me.

>

yeah i also feel like the bullet travel time is longer than the cast.

 

 

[Vornollo.5182]

Refrained from reacting to this topic for a bit until I got more comfortable with DE and it's workings and such (*as that's where the majority of your suggestions seem to be based on*). Still not a fan of the playstyle, but ey, that's how it should be... Some people like one thing, others like something different.

I don't like your suggestions overall, this time around though. Sure they're damn good for DE and Stealth-reliant WvW builds. But they'd destroy other builds and build diversity in mostly sPvP and to a slightly lesser extent in WvW.

 

Stealth as it is right now, is amazing. It's a strong tool that can be used in so many ways and allows one to actually separate good thieves from bad thieves on several occasions. It's intricate due to being able to weave it into your combat and doesn't necessarily have to be cheesy. In fact, on the vast majority of builds it's not cheesy at all, no matter what the plethora of newbies claim on other forums.

 

I think that right now, Stealth has 2 issues... 1) In some builds/setups it's **too easy** to apply and 2) Revealed applied by enemies breaks a complete traitline.

And to some extent I'd add 3) Stealth Attack(s) going on CD.

 

For the first issue, which I mostly consider to be with Daredevil's "Bounding Dodger" to a degree, but mostly with Deadeye's Silent Scope. I sadly can't really think of any solution. The leap finisher on Bound isn't inherently broken by any means, it's just very tedious to play against something where you can see someone stealthing, but not being able to counter it in any significant way (*heck, getting in close for an immob with Infiltrator's Strike or timing a Steal just at the right time can actually really hurt your chances at winning the fight instead. Luckily there's other options to semi-counter that for us too.*), but with other Combo-Fields I don't think it's any issue at all.

Making the Leap Finisher apply to everything except smokefields also doesn't seem like a solution to me...

With Silent Scope, I think there's an even bigger issue though. Sure you can semi-counter it a little bit easier due to the lack of damage at the end of the dodge. But unlike with Bound, it has no "tell" on it whatsoever. A Daredevil running bound needs a smokefield first, so you can counter them just based on that knowledge.

Silent Scope though... Sure, you can look at whether the Deadeye's currently on Rifle or not, but there's no way to actually counteract their access to stealth at that point.

This inability to "counter" easy stealth access is what makes it so tedious for most players and results in many of the rants and cries regarding Thief (*yeah, not DE, Thief... Because plebs are too uneducated about Thief 9/10 times or something...*).

Plus I don't believe that getting anything too easy is good gamedesign, regardless of class or mechanic.

Thing is though, now that I've been playing CS/SA/DE with Rifle and D/P quite frequently as of late (*specifically for the reason of trying to come up with alternatives to said easy Stealth*) I've come to realize that DE actually does **need** the extra stealth, even if it is to stand out a bit. Indeed, a D/P Daredevil with Bound could out-stealth a Deadeye rather comfortably if the Deadeye didn't have the Stealth on Dodge... And I don't think that's a correct balance between the Elite Specs.

So where to put the Stealth for DE instead of on Dodge..? Simply putting the 10 second ICD back on it won't do, I think.

Personally, I think that 'One in the Chamber' could be used to a significant effect. If That trait would add 2 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip (*in addition to it's other effects, but I think the additional Stealth might need an ICD on it*), I think that much could already be "solved", it's not perfect though. It'd greatly overtune Shadow Meld as it'd effectively allow you to permastealth using only the first ammo of the Elite skill (*unless there's a hefty ICD on the extra Stealth application, but that'd defeat the entire purpose of this*). But that in turn would also make DE's think extra about just casting it to get rid of Reveal without thinking about it. You could choose to take the revealed duration in favor of maintaining your easy permastealth. Or ofcourse, they could remove the Ammunition mechanic off Shadow Meld and simply reduce it's CD to like 20 seconds or something in addition to changing 'One in the Chamber'. If they'd do that, then I'd reckon instead of 2 seconds of additional Stealth, you could get 3 seconds.

Problem would then be that all cantrips other than Mercy and Shadow Meld would instantly break your stealth again... Argh, tedious stuff.

 

Rough to point out a "problem" without having a solution for it. Sorry about that, wish I'd have something more to add to that part of the discussion. But I just can't seem to find a fair solution without tossing the entire existing DE traitline around, and changing tons of things which I don't think is worth the effort in light of the recent reworks that it's already received.

 

For the second issue with Stealth, where Revealed breaks an entire traitline. I think there's an pretty easy fix. **Self-inflicted Reveal** should flip-over all skills/utilities back to normal and keep you visible to everyone, exactly how it is right now.

Admittedly, Shadow Arts is the only(?) traitline in this game with such a heavy decision-making aspect and I honestly think all traits and traitlines should work exactly like that, SA would just be a good example for the rest to follow.

**Enemy-inflicted Reveal** however, should just make you visible to everybody, your traits would still work. I think this is where they'd need to split between "Revealed" and something like "True Sight" (*Same as we got 'Stealth' (thief) and 'Hide in Shadows' (mesmer) and "Camouflage" to some extent*). Where one breaks Stealth entirely as it does now, where'd it'd be on your own terms and based on your own decision. And one where it just breaks invisibility, based on enemy counterattacks.

 

For the third issue I got with Stealth, the Stealth Attacks' CD... Truly, it's not too hard to connect a Backstab I find. Problem is that there's so many random defenses floating about in the game right now, that even when you connect your Backstab, something silly will decide to proc to mitigate it out of nowhere. Sure, you can stow the attack when you notice a block, blind or invuln, but that still puts it on a brief CD.

I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're forced to either spend Initiative or do nothing for up to 2 seconds just because some tedious passive or whatnot decided to be a kitten.

Just took Backstab as an easy example, but the issue exists for all Stealth Attacks.

What I'd like to see, is that when, for whatever reason, your Stealth Attack is mitigated, that the first weaponskill flips over to the standard Auto-Attack again. Then, when the 2 second timer has worn off again, it should revert back to the Stealth Attack again. This'd allow you to decide whether you want to sit in stealth a little longer to try and get off the second Stealth Attack, or just continue attacking with normal hits.

 

 

So all in all, Stealth is fine and it's a great mechanic.

There's just a few kinks that should be reconsidered and worked on...

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> Refrained from reacting to this topic for a bit until I got more comfortable with DE and it's workings and such (*as that's where the majority of your suggestions seem to be based on*). Still not a fan of the playstyle, but ey, that's how it should be... Some people like one thing, others like something different.

> I don't like your suggestions overall, this time around though. Sure they're kitten good for DE and Stealth-reliant WvW builds. But they'd destroy other builds and build diversity in mostly sPvP and to a slightly lesser extent in WvW.

>

> Stealth as it is right now, is amazing. It's a strong tool that can be used in so many ways and allows one to actually separate good thieves from bad thieves on several occasions. It's intricate due to being able to weave it into your combat and doesn't necessarily have to be cheesy. In fact, on the vast majority of builds it's not cheesy at all, no matter what the plethora of newbies claim on other forums.

>

> I think that right now, Stealth has 2 issues... 1) In some builds/setups it's **too easy** to apply and 2) Revealed applied by enemies breaks a complete traitline.

> And to some extent I'd add 3) Stealth Attack(s) going on CD.

>

> For the first issue, which I mostly consider to be with Daredevil's "Bounding Dodger" to a degree, but mostly with Deadeye's Silent Scope. I sadly can't really think of any solution. The leap finisher on Bound isn't inherently broken by any means, it's just very tedious to play against something where you can see someone stealthing, but not being able to counter it in any significant way (*heck, getting in close for an immob with Infiltrator's Strike or timing a Steal just at the right time can actually really hurt your chances at winning the fight instead. Luckily there's other options to semi-counter that for us too.*), but with other Combo-Fields I don't think it's any issue at all.

> Making the Leap Finisher apply to everything except smokefields also doesn't seem like a solution to me...

> With Silent Scope, I think there's an even bigger issue though. Sure you can semi-counter it a little bit easier due to the lack of damage at the end of the dodge. But unlike with Bound, it has no "tell" on it whatsoever. A Daredevil running bound needs a smokefield first, so you can counter them just based on that knowledge.

> Silent Scope though... Sure, you can look at whether the Deadeye's currently on Rifle or not, but there's no way to actually counteract their access to stealth at that point.

> This inability to "counter" easy stealth access is what makes it so tedious for most players and results in many of the rants and cries regarding Thief (*yeah, not DE, Thief... Because plebs are too uneducated about Thief 9/10 times or something...*).

> Plus I don't believe that getting anything too easy is good gamedesign, regardless of class or mechanic.

> Thing is though, now that I've been playing CS/SA/DE with Rifle and D/P quite frequently as of late (*specifically for the reason of trying to come up with alternatives to said easy Stealth*) I've come to realize that DE actually does **need** the extra stealth, even if it is to stand out a bit. Indeed, a D/P Daredevil with Bound could out-stealth a Deadeye rather comfortably if the Deadeye didn't have the Stealth on Dodge... And I don't think that's a correct balance between the Elite Specs.

> So where to put the Stealth for DE instead of on Dodge..? Simply putting the 10 second ICD back on it won't do, I think.

> Personally, I think that 'One in the Chamber' could be used to a significant effect. If That trait would add 2 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip (*in addition to it's other effects, but I think the additional Stealth might need an ICD on it*), I think that much could already be "solved", it's not perfect though. It'd greatly overtune Shadow Meld as it'd effectively allow you to permastealth using only the first ammo of the Elite skill (*unless there's a hefty ICD on the extra Stealth application, but that'd defeat the entire purpose of this*). But that in turn would also make DE's think extra about just casting it to get rid of Reveal without thinking about it. You could choose to take the revealed duration in favor of maintaining your easy permastealth. Or ofcourse, they could remove the Ammunition mechanic off Shadow Meld and simply reduce it's CD to like 20 seconds or something in addition to changing 'One in the Chamber'. If they'd do that, then I'd reckon instead of 2 seconds of additional Stealth, you could get 3 seconds.

> Problem would then be that all cantrips other than Mercy and Shadow Meld would instantly break your stealth again... Argh, tedious stuff.

>

> Rough to point out a "problem" without having a solution for it. Sorry about that, wish I'd have something more to add to that part of the discussion. But I just can't seem to find a fair solution without tossing the entire existing DE traitline around, and changing tons of things which I don't think is worth the effort in light of the recent reworks that it's already received.

>

> For the second issue with Stealth, where Revealed breaks an entire traitline. I think there's an pretty easy fix. **Self-inflicted Reveal** should flip-over all skills/utilities back to normal and keep you visible to everyone, exactly how it is right now.

> Admittedly, Shadow Arts is the only(?) traitline in this game with such a heavy decision-making aspect and I honestly think all traits and traitlines should work exactly like that, SA would just be a good example for the rest to follow.

> **Enemy-inflicted Reveal** however, should just make you visible to everybody, your traits would still work. I think this is where they'd need to split between "Revealed" and something like "True Sight" (*Same as we got 'Stealth' (thief) and 'Hide in Shadows' (mesmer) and "Camouflage" to some extent*). Where one breaks Stealth entirely as it does now, where'd it'd be on your own terms and based on your own decision. And one where it just breaks invisibility, based on enemy counterattacks.

>

> For the third issue I got with Stealth, the Stealth Attacks' CD... Truly, it's not too hard to connect a Backstab I find. Problem is that there's so many random defenses floating about in the game right now, that even when you connect your Backstab, something silly will decide to proc to mitigate it out of nowhere. Sure, you can stow the attack when you notice a block, blind or invuln, but that still puts it on a brief CD.

> I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're forced to either spend Initiative or do nothing for up to 2 seconds just because some tedious passive or whatnot decided to be a kitten.

> Just took Backstab as an easy example, but the issue exists for all Stealth Attacks.

> What I'd like to see, is that when, for whatever reason, your Stealth Attack is mitigated, that the first weaponskill flips over to the standard Auto-Attack again. Then, when the 2 second timer has worn off again, it should revert back to the Stealth Attack again. This'd allow you to decide whether you want to sit in stealth a little longer to try and get off the second Stealth Attack, or just continue attacking with normal hits.

>

>

> So all in all, Stealth is fine and it's a great mechanic.

> There's just a few kinks that should be reconsidered and worked on...

 

Wow thats a long way of saying "I don't know how to fix this either"!

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> > - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

>

> Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

 

I think you guys are making a big confusion here.

[Malicious Backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Backstab "Malicious Backstab") and [backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab "Backstab") are different skills. Even tough ANET has left both with the same numbers, changing one of then won't affect the other one.

So nerfing MBS won't affect Daredevil or Core Thieves. It's not the same skill.

 

And yes, I am totally aware that its possible to hit 20k with a normal Backstab. But the setup involved for that to happen is different than how DE does it, as well as the method to make it BS actually hit and the ways to counter it.

 

My point is that, by design, DE should warn the target before doing the big hit. Aproaching someone from perma stealth, using mark and instantly deal 18k damage is **not** the way the class was intended.

 

DJ has enough warnings for its damage, MBS has not.

MBS can be a great opener for DEs, 5k-12k damage is fine. But if they want to hit that 20k full invested damage, they need to have at least 4~6 stacks of malice or more.

 

Kepp in mind that halving the damage is just a suggestion. You could also make MBS work the same way as hearthseeker and make damage variable based on target health or anything.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

>>DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

>This looks good on paper, but unless you bait dodges or +1 you won't hit a good enemy at range with DJ. I actually find shadowstepping close to them before using DJ so the projectile flight time is reduced is way more reliable than quickness on the animation, so removing the interaction with quickness won't really change a lot for me.

 

And why is that bad?

Taking in fact the damage and unblockable factor of the skill, as well as the fact that you don't lose malice upon miss in a class with easy access to stealth, forcing the opponent to burn dodges and active defenses before using the skill seens extremely fair.

[Artaz.3819]

You don't remove a class mechanic (Stealth) because of one single trait in a single specialized line that becomes overpowered because of Shadow Meld in another trait line...

 

Silent Scope needs to be removed and replaced with a Rifle trait that removes the need for kneeling to receive the better shots in kneel currently...that's it. Sniper's Cover (smoke screen) replaces skill 5 kneel. If a Thief stands still for more than 'x' (1?) seconds, all rifle skills gain +20% critical chance and thief receives +1 initiative every 3s, done.

 

Well, maybe add a target reticle option for direction of Death's Retreat too (quality of life) on Rifle. Then done.

 

Note, invisibility in any game will always be whined about as being too powerful, especially when it can be permanently applied (if focused build). Deadeye did not change that. Deadeye's Silent Scope rifle trait DID change that investment balance though because it allows significantly easier perma-stealth for a fraction of the trait/gear/build cost.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> > > - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

> >

> > Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

>

> I think you guys are making a big confusion here.

> [Malicious Backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Backstab "Malicious Backstab") and [backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab "Backstab") are different skills. Even tough ANET has left both with the same numbers, changing one of then won't affect the other one.

> So nerfing MBS won't affect Daredevil or Core Thieves. It's not the same skill.

>

> And yes, I am totally aware that its possible to hit 20k with a normal Backstab. But the setup involved for that to happen is different than how DE does it, as well as the method to make it BS actually hit and the ways to counter it.

>

> My point is that, by design, DE should warn the target before doing the big hit. Aproaching someone from perma stealth, using mark and instantly deal 18k damage is **not** the way the class was intended.

 

how is the setup harder on a daredevil for a normal backstab? they dont even have to take a utility for a portstab, they can just use steal.

 

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > maybe a less extreme change would be better for start like the one @"Sir Vincent III.1286" proposed that reveal only counters invisbility not stealth itself.

>

> What does that even mean? Those words stand for the same thing in this game. What would stealth be if it wasn't making you invisible? What would its effect be?

>

 

Shadow Apparition Effect. Stealth in GW2 is Shadow Magic thus the Thief is covered in shadow to be unseen, not necessarily invisible. So to Reveal a stealthed Thief, they will have a Shadow Apparition Effect. It will be like spotting someone in a dark alley covered in a smokey aura.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> > > - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

> >

> > Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

>

> I think you guys are making a big confusion here.

> [Malicious Backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Backstab "Malicious Backstab") and [backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab "Backstab") are different skills. Even tough ANET has left both with the same numbers, changing one of then won't affect the other one.

> So nerfing MBS won't affect Daredevil or Core Thieves. It's not the same skill.

 

I'm well aware it's not the same skill, my question is why would I take deadeye over daredevil if the initial malicious backstab damage is half that of regular backstab?

 

> And yes, I am totally aware that its possible to hit 20k with a normal Backstab. But the setup involved for that to happen is different than how DE does it, as well as the method to make it BS actually hit and the ways to counter it.

>

> My point is that, by design, DE should warn the target before doing the big hit. Aproaching someone from perma stealth, using mark and instantly deal 18k damage is **not** the way the class was intended.

 

So we agree that deadeye and daredevil can both permastealth, and can both immediately hit for 17-20k on an initial hit, but you only want deadeye nerfed. Okie doke.

 

> DJ has enough warnings for its damage, MBS has not.

 

It has the same warnings as regular backstab, which can hit for the same damage from stealth as a one malice malicious backstab. So why are we nerfing malicious backstab but not regular backstab, if it's the damage that you want nerfing?

 

> MBS can be a great opener for DEs, 5k-12k damage is fine. But if they want to hit that 20k full invested damage, they need to have at least 4~6 stacks of malice or more.

 

Again, why would I bother with deadeye then when regular backstab can hit harder with less setup?

 

> Kepp in mind that halving the damage is just a suggestion. You could also make MBS work the same way as hearthseeker and make damage variable based on target health or anything.

 

I agree the way malice scales the damage for max malice malicious backstabs is pretty ridiculous. That said, the BASIC damage is the same as regular backstab. You can't halve the damage of malicious backstab without A. making deadeye a self nerf compared to core or B. nerfing core along with it.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> >>DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

> >This looks good on paper, but unless you bait dodges or +1 you won't hit a good enemy at range with DJ. I actually find shadowstepping close to them before using DJ so the projectile flight time is reduced is way more reliable than quickness on the animation, so removing the interaction with quickness won't really change a lot for me.

>

> And why is that bad?

> Taking in fact the damage and unblockable factor of the skill, as well as the fact that you don't lose malice upon miss in a class with easy access to stealth, forcing the opponent to burn dodges and active defenses before using the skill seens extremely fair.

 

It's not bad, you missed my point entirely. I'm saying that reducing the interaction with quickness won't affect anything because we're ALREADY in a state where we have to bait dodges to get DJ to land vs good opponents. It's a pointless change.

 

TLDR: currently a 1 malice malicious backstab does the same damage as a regular backstab, assuming both builds are invested into damage. You can't nerf the base damage of malicious backstab without making deadeye a self nerf, or without nerfing core backstab at the same time. While I agree it's pretty OP, it's not a sensible nerf and while power shatter mirage exists I don't see why deadeye should be nerfed in a vacuum simply because people don't like it. It's power creep, kinda systemic at this point.

[anduriell.6280]

nope, the problem with thief is not only the stealth is how the class has access to high mobility, high burst and the stealth uptime itself.

But the class is defined around stealth. Modifying how it works now it would require to review and modify all the class traits and skills or being in risk to destroy the class.

 

My solution would be:

* when somebody is stealthed and is hit, the numbers should be shown. That way it opens to have more "counter stealth" mechanic without abusing revealed state.

* Stealthed enemies stay in combat to avoid health regeneration while keep stalking the target.

 

* all classes in game to have access to a counter mechanic to stealth. As an example some classes have access to a lot of AoE. Now as the hits are shown it can be used to ping an invisible enemy. Other may have easier access to taunt to invisible enemies for example. And then there is revealed,

 

Now to address this level of high burst and no risk (as the thief at any moment has access to a ridiculous amounts of long teleports and evades)

* Thief does damage in function of how much initiative is left. This way it has to actually time burst with initiative. The less initiative the less damage it does.

* To balance the issue of lack of initiative generation, some traits and skills my be modified to provide initiative when some event happen. As an example a trait can refill the initiative when an enemy is stunned.

* Autoattacks do not drain initiative but do not allow more initiative to be earn passively.

 

The idea is to keep the high burst but to balance with the amount of teleports\leaps\stealth the player has used to be able to hit. Having the damage linked to the initiative left should balance the damage overall, making the abuse of the broken mechanics less attractive.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> Now to address this level of high burst and no risk (as the thief at any moment has access to a ridiculous amounts of long teleports and evades)

> * Thief does damage in function of how much initiative is left. This way it has to actually time burst with initiative. The less initiative the less damage it does.

> * To balance the issue of lack of initiative generation, some traits and skills my be modified to provide initiative when some event happen. As an example a trait can refill the initiative when an enemy is stunned.

> * Autoattacks do not drain initiative but do not allow more initiative to be earn passively.

>

> The idea is to keep the high burst but to balance with the amount of teleports\leaps\stealth the player has used to be able to hit. Having the damage linked to the initiative left should balance the damage overall, making the abuse of the broken mechanics less attractive.

>

you do realize that the more initative the more damage would support high opening bursts and a hit and run playstyle? i mean thats what many thief builds do so i dont understand what this change is doing aside from giving more ini regen for whatever.

 

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> > > > - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

> > >

> > > Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

> >

> > I think you guys are making a big confusion here.

> > [Malicious Backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Backstab "Malicious Backstab") and [backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab "Backstab") are different skills. Even tough ANET has left both with the same numbers, changing one of then won't affect the other one.

> > So nerfing MBS won't affect Daredevil or Core Thieves. It's not the same skill.

>

> I'm well aware it's not the same skill, my question is why would I take deadeye over daredevil if the initial malicious backstab damage is half that of regular backstab?

>

 

Can hit up to 70% higher than normal backstab?

 

I mean, every class would kill a few kittens for that damage bonus. I can't understand why would you want more than that.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > And yes, I am totally aware that its possible to hit 20k with a normal Backstab. But the setup involved for that to happen is different than how DE does it, as well as the method to make it BS actually hit and the ways to counter it.

> >

> > My point is that, by design, DE should warn the target before doing the big hit. Aproaching someone from perma stealth, using mark and instantly deal 18k damage is **not** the way the class was intended.

>

> So we agree that deadeye and daredevil can both permastealth, and can both immediately hit for 17-20k on an initial hit, but you only want deadeye nerfed. Okie doke.

 

Negative. I don't agree that daredevil can perma stealth in an effective build.

With the sole exception of the trap condi build that got erased from the game, daredevil never had a proper full stealth build.

 

The perma stealth problem started with, and only, when DE was added to the game. The concept of perma stealth for 18k damage backstab wasn't around here on HoT.

It could be replicated but it's not as effective as current DE build.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > DJ has enough warnings for its damage, MBS has not.

>

> It has the same warnings as regular backstab, which can hit for the same damage from stealth as a one malice malicious backstab. So why are we nerfing malicious backstab but not regular backstab, if it's the damage that you want nerfing?

 

Its not the damage in itself. Its completely acceptable that a Full M7 MBS to hit 70% higher than a BS. I am saying that the MBS damage with only one malicious stack is too high for the DE design approach. (which is to warn the target before the big damage).

 

> > MBS can be a great opener for DEs, 5k-12k damage is fine. But if they want to hit that 20k full invested damage, they need to have at least 4~6 stacks of malice or more.

>

> Again, why would I bother with deadeye then when regular backstab can hit harder with less setup?

 

Daredevil doesn't have proper perma stealth build, etcetera, etcetera.

 

> > Kepp in mind that halving the damage is just a suggestion. You could also make MBS work the same way as hearthseeker and make damage variable based on target health or anything.

>

> I agree the way malice scales the damage for max malice malicious backstabs is pretty ridiculous. That said, the BASIC damage is the same as regular backstab. You can't halve the damage of malicious backstab without A. making deadeye a self nerf compared to core or B. nerfing core along with it.

 

Of course you can, the MBS will hit higher than BS after 5 Malices either way. Its a matter of Utility + Mediun Damage or Pure Strenght.

 

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > >>DJ animation is no longer affected by Quickness.

> > >This looks good on paper, but unless you bait dodges or +1 you won't hit a good enemy at range with DJ. I actually find shadowstepping close to them before using DJ so the projectile flight time is reduced is way more reliable than quickness on the animation, so removing the interaction with quickness won't really change a lot for me.

> >

> > And why is that bad?

> > Taking in fact the damage and unblockable factor of the skill, as well as the fact that you don't lose malice upon miss in a class with easy access to stealth, forcing the opponent to burn dodges and active defenses before using the skill seens extremely fair.

>

> It's not bad, you missed my point entirely. I'm saying that reducing the interaction with quickness won't affect anything because we're ALREADY in a state where we have to bait dodges to get DJ to land vs good opponents. It's a pointless change.

 

Yes i agree on that somewhat. Just that Quickness + DJ is on the list of conplaims of a lot of people.

 

I will say again that when I listed the nerfs I am not saying that you need to add "ALL OF THEN" to the game. Was just a list of "fair" suggestions of how to nerf DE.

Gods be dammed if ANET decide to implement all of then, that would be a total overnerf.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> TLDR: currently a 1 malice malicious backstab does the same damage as a regular backstab, assuming both builds are invested into damage. You can't nerf the base damage of malicious backstab without making deadeye a self nerf, or without nerfing core backstab at the same time. While I agree it's pretty OP, it's not a sensible nerf and while power shatter mirage exists I don't see why deadeye should be nerfed in a vacuum simply because people don't like it. It's power creep, kinda systemic at this point.

 

I like your opinion. But you have to accept the fact that is a lot less risky to walk around on Full Zerkers on a DE than on a Daredevil/Core Thief.

 

Most daredevil walk around on Marauders because they need the extra health.

DE doesn't need the extra health besides personal preference. A single roll and you are on stealth again, making gameplay a lot easier than DD's reliance on utilitys to enter stealth under pressure.

 

In fact, one of the reasons you "could" say that DE is broken is because of how comfortable it plays on Zerk gear meanwhile other Thief builds are forced for Valk/Marauder combinations. But thats just a personal observation.

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > > **Now on specific Dead Eye nerfs:**

> > > > > - On PvP and WvW, drop the base damage of Malicious Backstab by 1/2 and rise the damage bonus accordingly. Marking a target and OHKO it with 1 stack of malice is WRONG, but the way MBS damage bonus works IS NOT. Got seven stacks of malice and didn't took countermeasures? Die. But getting OHKO in 0,5 sec from nowhere is indeed not fun. The design of DJ pretty much tells us how DE should work, and the current MBS isn't following that.

> > > >

> > > > Are you willing to nerf core and daredevil backstab by half in order to nerf one malice malicious backstabs on deadeye? Look at the base numbers for regular backstab and malicious backstab, they're the same. Given core and deadeye are capable of 20k backstabs (I know this because I've been hit by the same), why would I take an elite spec that's supposedly focused on damage that actually halves the damage of a key skill like backstab?

> > >

> > > I think you guys are making a big confusion here.

> > > [Malicious Backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Backstab "Malicious Backstab") and [backstab](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab "Backstab") are different skills. Even tough ANET has left both with the same numbers, changing one of then won't affect the other one.

> > > So nerfing MBS won't affect Daredevil or Core Thieves. It's not the same skill.

> >

> > I'm well aware it's not the same skill, my question is why would I take deadeye over daredevil if the initial malicious backstab damage is half that of regular backstab?

> >

>

> Can hit up to 70% higher than normal backstab?

>

> I mean, every class would kill a few kittens for that damage bonus. I can't understand why would you want more than that.

>

 

This damage bonus is fine as it is. There's so much time given for counterplay before reaching that much damage bonus. if you can't tell that someone is building up Malice on you, then the problem is on you. Sometimes, target dies before the MBS even happen.

 

 

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > >

> > > My point is that, by design, DE should warn the target before doing the big hit. Aproaching someone from perma stealth, using mark and instantly deal 18k damage is **not** the way the class was intended.

 

DE 2.0 gives everyone a lot of warning time before the big hit. If the previous iteration of Malice still exists I would have agreed with you, but again, if a DE is spending Intiatives on you, it's pretty much a given that a big hit is coming.

 

The damage is not even the problem.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> Negative. I don't agree that daredevil can perma stealth in an effective build.

> With the sole exception of the trap condi build that got erased from the game, daredevil never had a proper full stealth build.

>

> The perma stealth problem started with, and only, when DE was added to the game. The concept of perma stealth for 18k damage backstab wasn't around here on HoT.

> It could be replicated but it's not as effective as current DE build.

 

daredevil can perfectly permastealth in an effective build using SA same as deadeye. but it wasnt till DE that you see it as often because DE has a bigger focus on stealth, more reasons to play with stealth so people accept a deadeye playing with stealth. yet for daredevil many people frowned upon thieves that would go for bound to permastealth. it is good for ganking and against some in 1 vs 1 but in many cases the UC was better, so going for bound you were just a 'ganker'.

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > I'm well aware it's not the same skill, my question is why would I take deadeye over daredevil if the initial malicious backstab damage is half that of regular backstab?

> >

>

> Can hit up to 70% higher than normal backstab?

>

> I mean, every class would kill a few kittens for that damage bonus. I can't understand why would you want more than that.

 

We were talking about INITIAL malicious backstab damage, damage with one malice stack. This is the same as regular backstab damage on a properly built daredevil as it has the same damage numbers and between havok mastery and bound you have roughly the same damage boost that is offered through DE traits. So only a 10% damage boost from malice, not 70%.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > So we agree that deadeye and daredevil can both permastealth, and can both immediately hit for 17-20k on an initial hit, but you only want deadeye nerfed. Okie doke.

>

> Negative. I don't agree that daredevil can perma stealth in an effective build.

> With the sole exception of the trap condi build that got erased from the game, daredevil never had a proper full stealth build.

>

> The perma stealth problem started with, and only, when DE was added to the game. The concept of perma stealth for 18k damage backstab wasn't around here on HoT.

> It could be replicated but it's not as effective as current DE build.

 

X trickery DD, D/P shortbow. With bound you can dodge twice then heartseeker twice through black powder, using your heal skill every second rotation to keep up endurance sufficient to permastealth and as I said earlier you can easily get the same damage modifiers from havok mastery and bound that DE gives on a one malice DE backstab. I used to run this as a oneshot build in HoT, the backstab damage is comparable and the lack of warning is pretty much the same as DE when played properly.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > It has the same warnings as regular backstab, which can hit for the same damage from stealth as a one malice malicious backstab. So why are we nerfing malicious backstab but not regular backstab, if it's the damage that you want nerfing?

>

> Its not the damage in itself. Its completely acceptable that a Full M7 MBS to hit 70% higher than a BS. I am saying that the MBS damage with only one malicious stack is too high for the DE design approach. (which is to warn the target before the big damage).

 

The problem is that it's the same damage as core backstab when you only have one malice, which is what the issue is. If the damage without warning is the issue then we should be nerfing regular backstab as well, if we only nerf deadeye then you're making it less attractive to use expansion paid for content, which apart from anything else that simply won't happen.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Again, why would I bother with deadeye then when regular backstab can hit harder with less setup?

>

> Daredevil doesn't have proper perma stealth build, etcetera, etcetera.

 

Yes, it does. I agree that deadeye has an easier time of it but that's kinda the point of the elite spec tbh.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > I agree the way malice scales the damage for max malice malicious backstabs is pretty ridiculous. That said, the BASIC damage is the same as regular backstab. You can't halve the damage of malicious backstab without A. making deadeye a self nerf compared to core or B. nerfing core along with it.

>

> Of course you can, the MBS will hit higher than BS after 5 Malices either way. Its a matter of Utility + Mediun Damage or Pure Strenght.

 

No, it won't. the 70% will be 70% of the halved value with this change, not the base backstab value. I'll work it out below so it's more straightforward;

 

Regular backstab damage = 1 (chosen to make the numbers easy to follow)

1/2= 0.5 (your suggested change to malicious backstab base numbers)

0.5*1.7=0.85 (your suggested change with 7 malice)

 

All other damage modifiers are available to both daredevil and DE, so with 7 malice you'd hit for 85% of the damage of a regular backstab if what you suggest is implemented, and that's after hitting the target a few times whereas the regular backstab can be done with no warning. You're just plain wrong on this one I'm afraid.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > It's not bad, you missed my point entirely. I'm saying that reducing the interaction with quickness won't affect anything because we're ALREADY in a state where we have to bait dodges to get DJ to land vs good opponents. It's a pointless change.

>

> Yes i agree on that somewhat. Just that Quickness + DJ is on the list of conplaims of a lot of people.

 

Most people don't know what actually kills them as they don't play the spec, and good deadeyes aren't seen until something is dead. So it's understandable there's a lot of misinformation about the spec tbh. I have no issues with meaningful changes to the spec to make it more fun to fight, this just won't do anything I'm afraid.

 

> I will say again that when I listed the nerfs I am not saying that you need to add "ALL OF THEN" to the game. Was just a list of "fair" suggestions of how to nerf DE.

> Gods be dammed if ANET decide to implement all of then, that would be a total overnerf.

 

Of course, I've mostly focussed on the halving malicious backstab change you mentioned as I disagree with it, but I don't have a problem with DE being changed in principle. I just want it to be changed in a way that doesn't neuter the spec and that actually achieves the desired result of making DE more "fair" to fight. Accomplishing both is rather difficult due to the design concept of DE I'm afraid.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > TLDR: currently a 1 malice malicious backstab does the same damage as a regular backstab, assuming both builds are invested into damage. You can't nerf the base damage of malicious backstab without making deadeye a self nerf, or without nerfing core backstab at the same time. While I agree it's pretty OP, it's not a sensible nerf and while power shatter mirage exists I don't see why deadeye should be nerfed in a vacuum simply because people don't like it. It's power creep, kinda systemic at this point.

>

> I like your opinion. But you have to accept the fact that is a lot less risky to walk around on Full Zerkers on a DE than on a Daredevil/Core Thief.

>

> Most daredevil walk around on Marauders because they need the extra health.

> DE doesn't need the extra health besides personal preference. A single roll and you are on stealth again, making gameplay a lot easier than DD's reliance on utilitys to enter stealth under pressure.

>

> In fact, one of the reasons you "could" say that DE is broken is because of how comfortable it plays on Zerk gear meanwhile other Thief builds are forced for Valk/Marauder combinations. But thats just a personal observation.

>

 

Honestly I switched to playing mostly valk with a few pieces of zerk on DE as there's really no reason not to with hidden killer. I fully agree that it's got a very low risk feel to it even with zerk, and I agree that deadeye has an easier time doing the high stealth high spike thing than daredevil, but it's kinda the point of the spec. Daredevil has other strengths, and if it were up to me I'd make daredevil the bruiser spec and deadeye the straight up assassin spec to diversify the builds a little bit. But it is what is is.

 

The problem is that the WvW meta roamers can blow you up in a split second these days, not just deadeye but mirage, holo, warrior, weaver etc. I prefer Rifle S/D deadeye with acro trickery DE myself, but stealth is always going to be better and my main condi cleanse is tied to stealth in SA. I honestly feel that stealth on dodge is total BS, it's almost impossible to counter outside of the most reliable reveal skills like sic 'em, lock on, DH F1, consume facet of darkness and magebane tether. Those are the skills that get me killed generally, and good players use them really effectively.

 

It's a hard one to balance tbh. I honestly cannot think of a way to balance it without neutering it or core in some way, and the way revealed and shadow meld functions plus the 1500 range on rifle leads to very rock paper scissors type matchups. To me it's simply the perfect solo roaming thief build at this time, it has everything you could want.

 

If I were to make any changes they would be along the lines of giving the opponent more tells if you're paying attention, as if you're unaware that a mesmer or an ele is in the area you deserve to get blown up, so the same logic should apply to thief. The one I saw recently of leaving a smoke afterimage when you stealth for a few seconds is a good idea, people would have an idea where you were going and that you're in the area etc. There's already a smoke effect when stealth is applied, they'd just need to change that and that would give the other player more information without breaking the deadeye at the same time. A second, and more important change is to make sniper's cover not castable inside a wall like it is currently so you can hide your smoke field, that would give more opportunity to counterplay the same with black powder. Stuff like that is the way to go I feel.

 

And don't take my post as aggressive in any way, I can word things more forcefully than I mean to when debating. It's not meant nastily ^^

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> If I were to make any changes they would be along the lines of giving the opponent more tells if you're paying attention, as if you're unaware that a mesmer or an ele is in the area you deserve to get blown up, so the same logic should apply to thief. The one I saw recently of leaving a smoke afterimage when you stealth for a few seconds is a good idea, people would have an idea where you were going and that you're in the area etc. There's already a smoke effect when stealth is applied, they'd just need to change that and that would give the other player more information without breaking the deadeye at the same time. A second, and more important change is to make sniper's cover not castable inside a wall like it is currently so you can hide your smoke field, that would give more opportunity to counterplay the same with black powder. Stuff like that is the way to go I feel.

 

that after image on stealth would work on most roaming deadeyes i have encountered as they often dont stealth until they themselves see the opponent. yet there is also a group like me who will mostly be in stealth when going over a map with the intention to kill what ever comes their way. i only walk visible if i want to reach a certain place in time but even then with partially stealth for movement speed.

so i am not sure such a smoky thief visual would actually tell you someone is there. a little signal sound when someone enters your 1500 radius in stealth for example with no directional indicator might be better. you wouldnt know wich side, but you know something is near.

 

snipers cover can be cast into a wall because it is forcefully cast on a distance. if the wall instead was casted inside the deadeye, you wouldnt be able to hide it fully into a wall only mostly into a corner. but that on the other hand would grand the deadeye 360° projectile block. now the question is what is better? directional block + hideable field or 360° projectile block with visible field. i despise duelling mesmers, especially mirages that spamm evades and their ability to be more or less immune to projectiles that are not unblockable. with sniperscover having no CD it would be the same for deadeyes. with it being directional and rather short wall, opponents have room for counterplay with positioning.

another thing is if they make it to cast inside the deadeye, that still wont change the way of permastealthing with the least tell so more people might be going for that, not sure if i should explain it tho as it surely will be used by some to ask for nerfs to this and that, just because people see permastealth as a bigger issue than it is. its just a tool to avoid conflicts, yet without conflicts you wont win in any mode. you might avoid an encounter you would lose, but does that make you win in the mode? for example you are alone in a tower in WvW, 50 man zerg comes and you port to spawn = avoided conflict that you would have lost, but you still lost the tower. so why do people want to force an encounter, i dont know. but running away seems to be a more accepted way of avoiding an encounter than stealth it seems.

so what do you really want to adress with changes to snipers cover? easier countering the permastealthing as a tool to avoid combat and pick fights or do you want to just have a tell that someone is nearby in stealth, a warning. in that case i think an audio tell is best.