Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > If I were to make any changes they would be along the lines of giving the opponent more tells if you're paying attention, as if you're unaware that a mesmer or an ele is in the area you deserve to get blown up, so the same logic should apply to thief. The one I saw recently of leaving a smoke afterimage when you stealth for a few seconds is a good idea, people would have an idea where you were going and that you're in the area etc. There's already a smoke effect when stealth is applied, they'd just need to change that and that would give the other player more information without breaking the deadeye at the same time. A second, and more important change is to make sniper's cover not castable inside a wall like it is currently so you can hide your smoke field, that would give more opportunity to counterplay the same with black powder. Stuff like that is the way to go I feel. > > that after image on stealth would work on most roaming deadeyes i have encountered as they often dont stealth until they themselves see the opponent. yet there is also a group like me who will mostly be in stealth when going over a map with the intention to kill what ever comes their way. i only walk visible if i want to reach a certain place in time but even then with partially stealth for movement speed. > so i am not sure such a smoky thief visual would actually tell you someone is there. a little signal sound when someone enters your 1500 radius in stealth for example with no directional indicator might be better. you wouldnt know wich side, but you know something is near. > > snipers cover can be cast into a wall because it is forcefully cast on a distance. if the wall instead was casted inside the deadeye, you wouldnt be able to hide it fully into a wall only mostly into a corner. but that on the other hand would grand the deadeye 360° projectile block. now the question is what is better? directional block + hideable field or 360° projectile block with visible field. i despise duelling mesmers, especially mirages that spamm evades and their ability to be more or less immune to projectiles that are not unblockable. with sniperscover having no CD it would be the same for deadeyes. with it being directional and rather short wall, opponents have room for counterplay with positioning. > another thing is if they make it to cast inside the deadeye, that still wont change the way of permastealthing with the least tell so more people might be going for that, not sure if i should explain it tho as it surely will be used by some to ask for nerfs to this and that, just because people see permastealth as a bigger issue than it is. its just a tool to avoid conflicts, yet without conflicts you wont win in any mode. you might avoid an encounter you would lose, but does that make you win in the mode? for example you are alone in a tower in WvW, 50 man zerg comes and you port to spawn = avoided conflict that you would have lost, but you still lost the tower. so why do people want to force an encounter, i dont know. but running away seems to be a more accepted way of avoiding an encounter than stealth it seems. > so what do you really want to adress with changes to snipers cover? easier countering the permastealthing as a tool to avoid combat and pick fights or do you want to just have a tell that someone is nearby in stealth, a warning. in that case i think an audio tell is best. > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. And honestly I don't think perma stealth is as big an issue as it's made out to be either, but I can't deny that DE is extremely strong right now. The opponent having more information as to what I'm doing isn't the end of the world, so I don't have a problem with those sort of changes at all. That said organised groups won't let me pick someone off easily, skilled opponents will beat me, and if someone knows how to use reveal it can be very problematic. Holosmiths are seriously annoying to fight if they know you're there. I don't know. Part of me agrees with more counterplay but when someone suggests something I find myself defending the spec as I did with soulsin, as toning it down without neutering it is extremely difficult at this point and there IS counterplay available, it's just not equally available to all specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. > you can stack easily over 10s of stealth and walk pretty far with that. and it would if you dont stack much at once give you an idea where the thief is at any given time wich kinda makes them kind of 'visible' again, when you just want to make them aware that there is someone there. i would still much prefer an audio tell over that. cause stealth effect says your invisible but not that you are quiet. > When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. > i think that doesnt work as easily, because you have a forced minimal distance and the wall has allways the same ankle in the world. i guess if they change it, anet would go for the easier soultion wich is making it cast within you instead of groundtargeted. in what kind of situation do you see hiding snipers cover as an issue? because i mostly do that out of an actual fight, like when hiding in a keep. but for that there is again a way to permastealth without any deadeye audio, without visual etc. so someone trying to hide its tells will when this get fixed at latest switch to an even less noticable way. but i dont see a reason for anet to change that, only because people still havent learned how to deal with someone in their keeps. in an actual fight there is no reason to use snipers cover + leaps, maybe if you are highly outnumbered and need some time till your targets split up again so you can actually finish and not just down your target, but in such a situation it doesnt really matter as they should be able to deal with you anyway the moment you decide to attack. i think just an audio tell so that you know a target entered stealth within 1500 range or approaches in stealth within this range, would be enough to be aware of the presence. too much visual tells for each stealth stack would make it less invisible. you need tells so you can prepare for invisible opponents, audio is better because it doesnt reduce the invisibility while it does warn the target. it also is better for the target as you cant hide an audio tell with FoV/LoS. i had a few times people complaining about audiotells, because they have issues with hearing etc. so if that is too much of an issue, maybe any type of audio tell, be it a sound or a voiceline could be made into text as an option for combatlog. than people could set their chat window in a way that they see what others can hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. > > > you can stack easily over 10s of stealth and walk pretty far with that. and it would if you dont stack much at once give you an idea where the thief is at any given time wich kinda makes them kind of 'visible' again, when you just want to make them aware that there is someone there. i would still much prefer an audio tell over that. cause stealth effect says your invisible but not that you are quiet. > > When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. > > > i think that doesnt work as easily, because you have a forced minimal distance and the wall has allways the same ankle in the world. i guess if they change it, anet would go for the easier soultion wich is making it cast within you instead of groundtargeted. > in what kind of situation do you see hiding snipers cover as an issue? because i mostly do that out of an actual fight, like when hiding in a keep. but for that there is again a way to permastealth without any deadeye audio, without visual etc. so someone trying to hide its tells will when this get fixed at latest switch to an even less noticable way. but i dont see a reason for anet to change that, only because people still havent learned how to deal with someone in their keeps. > in an actual fight there is no reason to use snipers cover + leaps, maybe if you are highly outnumbered and need some time till your targets split up again so you can actually finish and not just down your target, but in such a situation it doesnt really matter as they should be able to deal with you anyway the moment you decide to attack. > > i think just an audio tell so that you know a target entered stealth within 1500 range or approaches in stealth within this range, would be enough to be aware of the presence. > too much visual tells for each stealth stack would make it less invisible. you need tells so you can prepare for invisible opponents, audio is better because it doesnt reduce the invisibility while it does warn the target. it also is better for the target as you cant hide an audio tell with FoV/LoS. > > i had a few times people complaining about audiotells, because they have issues with hearing etc. so if that is too much of an issue, maybe any type of audio tell, be it a sound or a voiceline could be made into text as an option for combatlog. than people could set their chat window in a way that they see what others can hear. Yeah, all this is pretty true still. I'm trying to see both sides to the argument to be honest, as while there is little in the way of tells currently a deadeye can be dealt with effectively by a player that knows what they're doing. I don't agree with the majority of complaints against deadeye but I do feel it is very strong and it would be unfair to not even consider their points. An audio tell could be good, I guess my main problem with that would be that audio tends to be the first thing to lag when a big fight starts. But it would be something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. > > > > > you can stack easily over 10s of stealth and walk pretty far with that. and it would if you dont stack much at once give you an idea where the thief is at any given time wich kinda makes them kind of 'visible' again, when you just want to make them aware that there is someone there. i would still much prefer an audio tell over that. cause stealth effect says your invisible but not that you are quiet. > > > When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. > > > > > i think that doesnt work as easily, because you have a forced minimal distance and the wall has allways the same ankle in the world. i guess if they change it, anet would go for the easier soultion wich is making it cast within you instead of groundtargeted. > > in what kind of situation do you see hiding snipers cover as an issue? because i mostly do that out of an actual fight, like when hiding in a keep. but for that there is again a way to permastealth without any deadeye audio, without visual etc. so someone trying to hide its tells will when this get fixed at latest switch to an even less noticable way. but i dont see a reason for anet to change that, only because people still havent learned how to deal with someone in their keeps. > > in an actual fight there is no reason to use snipers cover + leaps, maybe if you are highly outnumbered and need some time till your targets split up again so you can actually finish and not just down your target, but in such a situation it doesnt really matter as they should be able to deal with you anyway the moment you decide to attack. > > > > i think just an audio tell so that you know a target entered stealth within 1500 range or approaches in stealth within this range, would be enough to be aware of the presence. > > too much visual tells for each stealth stack would make it less invisible. you need tells so you can prepare for invisible opponents, audio is better because it doesnt reduce the invisibility while it does warn the target. it also is better for the target as you cant hide an audio tell with FoV/LoS. > > > > i had a few times people complaining about audiotells, because they have issues with hearing etc. so if that is too much of an issue, maybe any type of audio tell, be it a sound or a voiceline could be made into text as an option for combatlog. than people could set their chat window in a way that they see what others can hear. > > Yeah, all this is pretty true still. I'm trying to see both sides to the argument to be honest, as while there is little in the way of tells currently a deadeye can be dealt with effectively by a player that knows what they're doing. I don't agree with the majority of complaints against deadeye but I do feel it is very strong and it would be unfair to not even consider their points. > > An audio tell could be good, I guess my main problem with that would be that audio tends to be the first thing to lag when a big fight starts. But it would be something. would you even notice a visual tell in a big fight? would have to be some very flashy tell for an invisible player then. as for complains, they usually depend on knowledge and experience. if people dont even know what their opponents can do their perception of the encounter can be very interesting thats why you have people complaining about 'unkillable' warriors for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. > > > > > > > you can stack easily over 10s of stealth and walk pretty far with that. and it would if you dont stack much at once give you an idea where the thief is at any given time wich kinda makes them kind of 'visible' again, when you just want to make them aware that there is someone there. i would still much prefer an audio tell over that. cause stealth effect says your invisible but not that you are quiet. > > > > When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. > > > > > > > i think that doesnt work as easily, because you have a forced minimal distance and the wall has allways the same ankle in the world. i guess if they change it, anet would go for the easier soultion wich is making it cast within you instead of groundtargeted. > > > in what kind of situation do you see hiding snipers cover as an issue? because i mostly do that out of an actual fight, like when hiding in a keep. but for that there is again a way to permastealth without any deadeye audio, without visual etc. so someone trying to hide its tells will when this get fixed at latest switch to an even less noticable way. but i dont see a reason for anet to change that, only because people still havent learned how to deal with someone in their keeps. > > > in an actual fight there is no reason to use snipers cover + leaps, maybe if you are highly outnumbered and need some time till your targets split up again so you can actually finish and not just down your target, but in such a situation it doesnt really matter as they should be able to deal with you anyway the moment you decide to attack. > > > > > > i think just an audio tell so that you know a target entered stealth within 1500 range or approaches in stealth within this range, would be enough to be aware of the presence. > > > too much visual tells for each stealth stack would make it less invisible. you need tells so you can prepare for invisible opponents, audio is better because it doesnt reduce the invisibility while it does warn the target. it also is better for the target as you cant hide an audio tell with FoV/LoS. > > > > > > i had a few times people complaining about audiotells, because they have issues with hearing etc. so if that is too much of an issue, maybe any type of audio tell, be it a sound or a voiceline could be made into text as an option for combatlog. than people could set their chat window in a way that they see what others can hear. > > > > Yeah, all this is pretty true still. I'm trying to see both sides to the argument to be honest, as while there is little in the way of tells currently a deadeye can be dealt with effectively by a player that knows what they're doing. I don't agree with the majority of complaints against deadeye but I do feel it is very strong and it would be unfair to not even consider their points. > > > > An audio tell could be good, I guess my main problem with that would be that audio tends to be the first thing to lag when a big fight starts. But it would be something. > > would you even notice a visual tell in a big fight? would have to be some very flashy tell for an invisible player then. > as for complains, they usually depend on knowledge and experience. if people dont even know what their opponents can do their perception of the encounter can be very interesting thats why you have people complaining about 'unkillable' warriors for example. > I usually do react to dj in larger scale fights but if I don't pay attention at all I can get hit solo. It's mostly wether the player is alert or half a sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > Yeah, that's true, if it did it on stealth application not just on the initial stealth it might be fairer, that's kinda how I pictured it tbh. > > > > > > > you can stack easily over 10s of stealth and walk pretty far with that. and it would if you dont stack much at once give you an idea where the thief is at any given time wich kinda makes them kind of 'visible' again, when you just want to make them aware that there is someone there. i would still much prefer an audio tell over that. cause stealth effect says your invisible but not that you are quiet. > > > > When it comes to sniper's cover it's simply being able to see the field. Black power kinda casts on top of the wall if it's within the field radius if that makes sense, instead of being physically inside the wall. Making sniper's cover behave the same way would be enough, as visible fields give away the fact there's a stealthed opponent and his position, allowing some counterplay through AoE reveal and CC. I don't want anything else about the skill changed mind, with the exception of being able to hide it as it functions perfectly otherwise imo. > > > > > > > i think that doesnt work as easily, because you have a forced minimal distance and the wall has allways the same ankle in the world. i guess if they change it, anet would go for the easier soultion wich is making it cast within you instead of groundtargeted. > > > in what kind of situation do you see hiding snipers cover as an issue? because i mostly do that out of an actual fight, like when hiding in a keep. but for that there is again a way to permastealth without any deadeye audio, without visual etc. so someone trying to hide its tells will when this get fixed at latest switch to an even less noticable way. but i dont see a reason for anet to change that, only because people still havent learned how to deal with someone in their keeps. > > > in an actual fight there is no reason to use snipers cover + leaps, maybe if you are highly outnumbered and need some time till your targets split up again so you can actually finish and not just down your target, but in such a situation it doesnt really matter as they should be able to deal with you anyway the moment you decide to attack. > > > > > > i think just an audio tell so that you know a target entered stealth within 1500 range or approaches in stealth within this range, would be enough to be aware of the presence. > > > too much visual tells for each stealth stack would make it less invisible. you need tells so you can prepare for invisible opponents, audio is better because it doesnt reduce the invisibility while it does warn the target. it also is better for the target as you cant hide an audio tell with FoV/LoS. > > > > > > i had a few times people complaining about audiotells, because they have issues with hearing etc. so if that is too much of an issue, maybe any type of audio tell, be it a sound or a voiceline could be made into text as an option for combatlog. than people could set their chat window in a way that they see what others can hear. > > > > Yeah, all this is pretty true still. I'm trying to see both sides to the argument to be honest, as while there is little in the way of tells currently a deadeye can be dealt with effectively by a player that knows what they're doing. I don't agree with the majority of complaints against deadeye but I do feel it is very strong and it would be unfair to not even consider their points. > > > > An audio tell could be good, I guess my main problem with that would be that audio tends to be the first thing to lag when a big fight starts. But it would be something. > > would you even notice a visual tell in a big fight? would have to be some very flashy tell for an invisible player then. > as for complains, they usually depend on knowledge and experience. if people dont even know what their opponents can do their perception of the encounter can be very interesting thats why you have people complaining about 'unkillable' warriors for example. > This is kinda what I mean. It's hard to suggest actual meaningful changes with deadeye, and critics don't tend to help as they either don't play the spec so don't know what to suggest either or just plain hate it unconditionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 And this balance pass just made perma-stealth Thief more durable at the cost of nothing. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > And this balance pass just made perma-stealth Thief more durable at the cost of nothing. Hmm. My thoughts exactly lol. "Huh I guess we'll just keep buffing SA since it's not taken in PvE :thinking:." This actually may have been one of the single worst patches to date when looking at things game-wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > And this balance pass just made perma-stealth Thief more durable at the cost of nothing. Hmm. > > My thoughts exactly lol. > > "Huh I guess we'll just keep buffing SA since it's not taken in PvE :thinking:." yeah completely unneeded buff. the sustain while in stealth was already great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > And this balance pass just made perma-stealth Thief more durable at the cost of nothing. Hmm. > > My thoughts exactly lol. > > "Huh I guess we'll just keep buffing SA since it's not taken in PvE :thinking:." > > This actually may have been one of the single worst patches to date when looking at things game-wide. So much for the new team/group collaboration... what are they call again? Instead of making useless teams, they will be more informed if they actually each profession and play it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSin.5682 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 @Jugglemonkey.8741 I am not taking offense in any way, the discussion in this topic is quite healthy taking in consideration that i wasn't started by haters * **cough** * **cough** * As far as MBS damage goes, I am to lazy for maths. But when I mentioned to halve BS base damage I am taking in consideration that the full malice stack will still hit the same damage as BS + 70% bonus, In a quick math, post-my-suggestion 1/2 MBS would had a 340% damage bonus ( 48% bonus damage per malice stack). Of course, that need to be better calculated to take in consideration other numbers and traits but you get the idea. And I seriously don't agree that Perma Stealth DD worked out before DE. Its a matter of trait and skills sinergy in my head but I won't derail the topic in this subject. I still believe that, from my post, the better feedback from stealth players would be everything that is needed. And Alas, we need more suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"SoulSin.5682" said: > As far as MBS damage goes, I am to lazy for maths. But when I mentioned to halve BS base damage I am taking in consideration that the full malice stack will still hit the same damage as BS + 70% bonus, in either situation a low malice stab against a squishy or a full malice stack against a tanky one, there is not much the target can do. targets that you cant kill with a low malice stab usually also dont have the damage to burst you if you weave stealth so the build up against them is pretty safe and backstab having no tell aside from 'someone in stealth' will remain an issue here. i made earlier a suggestion to make backstab easier to apply mechanically for the thief and as a trade off give it a visual+audio tell (to the skill itself) the target can react to, as most DD/corre dont build backstabs that can onehit people, could make such a change to only malicious backstab, as deadeye also lacks option to combo backstab with steal so it is a little more 'difficult' for a deadeye to apply a backstab right now. i think the damage of a deadeye should remain deadly and not nerfed, but as you say conceptionally the targets should have an option to react to it. i see deadeye overall anyway as a more tactical way of playing the thief, while core/DD often are more mechanically intense. a deadeye can decide a fight by approaching it the right way but a suprise will kill him, a daredevil might jump into a fight without thinking but can react to suprises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"SoulSin.5682" said: > @Jugglemonkey.8741 > > I am not taking offense in any way, the discussion in this topic is quite healthy taking in consideration that i wasn't started by haters * **cough** * **cough** * > > As far as MBS damage goes, I am to lazy for maths. But when I mentioned to halve BS base damage I am taking in consideration that the full malice stack will still hit the same damage as BS + 70% bonus, > > In a quick math, post-my-suggestion 1/2 MBS would had a 340% damage bonus ( 48% bonus damage per malice stack). Of course, that need to be better calculated to take in consideration other numbers and traits but you get the idea. > > And I seriously don't agree that Perma Stealth DD worked out before DE. Its a matter of trait and skills sinergy in my head but I won't derail the topic in this subject. > > I still believe that, from my post, the better feedback from stealth players would be everything that is needed. > > And Alas, we need more suggestions. That's fair, I'm happy enough to just say that we disagree on certain points tbh. I do agree about the better feedback for the other player point tho; most of the complaints are based around deadeye feeling unfair to fight, and while that's always going to be a thing, if that's lessened somewhat through giving the opponent more tells so they can counter better as they gain experience fighting deadeyes then that's sufficient imo. Honestly it's just nice to have an actual discussion about it that didn't start with salt like you say haha. And as for the patch, I'm pretty sure the way to stop buffs to deadeye at this point is for more people to play it. They clearly think it needs more buffs as most thieves play daredevil still, so it's going to keep getting buffed until they see an increase in player numbers, regardless of the fact most people don't play deadeye as they don't like the concept/execution of it as opposed to it being actually weak *facepalm* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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