New Dagger Storm Is Unfun Power Creep (Please Anet stop doing these arbitrary power creeps)

[Turk.5460]

> @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > > > @"Caysadia.7405" said:

> > > > I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

> > >

> > > How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

> >

> > I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

> >

> > That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that *were already applied* before activating the skill.

>

> I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.

 

Well yes, you would handle it the same if you are power. However not everyone is all power so when EP or SoS is popped against hybrid or condi builds it's just business as usual for them - they'll keep attacking as normal as their condis will still land and do damage.

[Warkind.6745]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > > > > @"Caysadia.7405" said:

> > > > > I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

> > > >

> > > > How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

> > >

> > > I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

> > >

> > > That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that *were already applied* before activating the skill.

> >

> > I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.

>

> Well yes, you would handle it the same if you are power. However not everyone is all power so when EP or SoS is popped against hybrid or condi builds it's just business as usual for them - they'll keep attacking as normal as their condis will still land and do damage.

 

I suppose so. Guess I never really saw much difference between evades,invuln, or signet/endure since they all have the same effect to me. I still feel like if I can get used to peeling off classes for a few seconds to wait out cool downs, condi players can get used to it too though.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

I didn't really think there was anything wrong with it so don't understand why it had to be buffed/nerfed. For those who don't know how to use it you need to get in a hitbox, like a downed opponent, and try to stay there. All your attacks will hit inside the hitbox and you do huge AoE damage(10-15k). It's enough that you can sometimes end an entire sPvP team fight with it. Using it to reflect range attacks, stop people from fleeing, or escaping was just a side thing you could do, but it puts it in cooldown, which you might not want, as it's less of an effect. The evade essentially makes you invulnerable so you can delay a cap or use it in a team fight where you're disadvantaged so it would be suicide to use it before the buff. Honestly, if they were going to buff it a smaller cooldown would be better so you could use it for more things which would have been preferred over increasing the cooldown and making it trolly.

[alchemyst.2165]

Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

 

I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

 

Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

>

> I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

>

> Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

 

Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Instead of making DB a real evade they just overpower the hell out of this elite lol. Now all thieves can chain evades like D/D, without the added punish frames!

 

Instead of nerfing the amount of sustain and unblockable projectiles, they add more sustain to counter it.

 

It's this rock-paper-scissors nonsense that makes people quit. For %$#&'s sake, JUST UNDO POWERCREEP.

 

If this is the result of the Systems Team, they've already failed miserably, and it verifies what I've said for a long time: ANet is detached from their own game, and puts PvE roleplay balance in much higher stead than competitive mode balance.

[MechVampyre.2903]

"dagger storm is completely useless. doesn't do anything and only get yourself killed"

_dagger storm gets an evade_

"omg totally broken op wtf?!?!?!" xD

 

yes, those evades, invulns and stuff promote a lazy and passive way of playing, nothing new about that.

a-net doesn't delete or change such things, as we all witness since quite a while.

there are thieves wanting more sustain for thief, so a-net gives it to them, while keep walking their path of rather powercreeping skills/traits that are totally ok, instead of nerfing others- that's just how they do it. i neither like it...

 

but some comments here are so ridiculously dramatic concerning daggerstorms performance before the buff, aswell as after the buff.

 

[alchemyst.2165]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

> >

> > I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

> >

> > Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

>

> Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

>

>

 

Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

> > >

> > > I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

> > >

> > > Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

> >

> > Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

> >

> >

>

> Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

 

The ranged damage is minimal. You are unlikely to get hit by more then two of these daggers. I just spent several hours in WvW and saw a number of thieves using the skill. Some escaped as many and more were downed. The damage THEY inflicted in turn was minimal and could all but be ignored as there far more damage coming from other classes and other skills. Indeed damage wise you got more to fear from a DE NOT doing the spin and using a TRB from stealth instead . As to bland gameplay it no different really then waiting for a thief to leave stealth or the endure pain to run out on a warrior. It 4 seconds and a bit and you are not seeing it again for 90. POWERcreep is defined by an OP skill. This skill is not OP in any way shape or form. Quite frankly when I am playing my warrior or my necromancer, I would much rather see a thief using DS then one using SMELD. Somehing much nastier will be coming your way after an smeld then a few daggers.

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

It would be a more interesting skill if it were on around a 20s cooldown, granted 1s evade, 1-1.5s projectile reflect (similar to scrapper hammer reflect) and simply threw daggers at everything in range that bleed, cripple and bounce to more targets (so like a supercharged dagger 4) with an animation of similar timing to a triggered full counter. Lower cooldown means more interaction with trickster, and the lower duration makes it counterable as it's more about timing the skill for a true shot or overcharged shot etc so the stab wouldn't be needed. That's my two cents anyways, numbers are obviously variable for balance etc.

[dDuff.3860]

From my perspective, DS isn't anywhere from being imbalanced. In fact it compete on the spot with basilisk venom, shadow meld and impact strike.

So when you see thief has dagger storm you already know that he given up some of its utility/survivability.

Also from what I've seen, it is being used mostly by sd builds, which already have close to no reliable cc.

 

On the other side, I can imagine how strong this ability can be in a masspvp environment. And I'd say there it is needed. Unlike many other classes, and you know it, thief doesn't have a lot of damage reduction. So, getting some sort of fomo button is okay.

 

And I consider it fun, unlike OP mentioned, Your stream show that is really fun)

 

Out of everything, 4,5 per 90 sec is just a BS to be counted as OP.

 

3 ammo for 1,5 sec on 30 sec cooldown,

Or

2 ammo for 2,5 sec on 45 sec

 

could've make it tho.

[AikijinX.6258]

I'm easing my way back into this game again, and I've just seen this new DS change. Honestly I like it, however yes the counterplay isnt really there. The Thief in me wants to say "Good this is what we've deserved, and needed to make D.S actually fun to run, plus this is pretty much what Mirages can spec into with traits their dodge, reflect" But the Good natured person in me is calling for abit of a tweak on the skill. I love it just the way it is, however I acknowledge it's abit strong with evasion builds, and a RNG improv proc.

[alchemyst.2165]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > > Agree with the OP. There isn't any counterplay to Dagger Storm as of now, and I think it served the purpose it was intended to before. I think if they really wanted to buff it, a simple damage reduction would have been fine, but a 4+ second mobile evade while dealing damage and reflecting can't really be counterplayed.

> > > >

> > > > I appreciate them trying to buff underwhelming utilities but I think that a buff would be better suited in other skills/traits.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: A possible solution could be to make the evade portion much shorter (~1 second) or add damage reduction if they wanted to make the skill more survivable. I think it's a good point that DS was basically a death sentence to the thief before since you couldn't really do anything else during it.

> > >

> > > Doing nothing is a counter. I have seen a number use this in WvW. It rather easy just to wait until the DS runs its course and then counter. I do the same when I see Defy pain activated on a warrior obsidian flesh on elementalists or watch the distortion/evade chains on mesmer. Now one can certainly argue that the evades of that mesmer do not last 4 seconds but then the damage they can do is a LOT more in that shorter period of time then what DS can do and they are not waiting 90 seconds for the next. More people will die to Blurred frenzy

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Doing nothing is much easier to say than do in this case considering that the skill deals ranged damage AND has superspeed while using it, making it much more difficult to kite it especially when coupled with cripple. The fact that doing nothing is really the only option just proves that skills like DS as they are now simply create uninteresting, bland gameplay. It would be fine if this symptom existed in a vacuum, but the game is currently filled with power-creep (although they're doing a better job of minimizing it) and they decided to respond with more power-creep, which only fuels the issue. Balance is relative, yes, but if everybody has power-creep, the gameplay becomes simultaneously more boring and frustrating.

>

> The ranged damage is minimal. You are unlikely to get hit by more then two of these daggers. I just spent several hours in WvW and saw a number of thieves using the skill. Some escaped as many and more were downed. The damage THEY inflicted in turn was minimal and could all but be ignored as there far more damage coming from other classes and other skills. Indeed damage wise you got more to fear from a DE NOT doing the spin and using a TRB from stealth instead . As to bland gameplay it no different really then waiting for a thief to leave stealth or the endure pain to run out on a warrior. It 4 seconds and a bit and you are not seeing it again for 90. POWERcreep is defined by an OP skill. This skill is not OP in any way shape or form. Quite frankly when I am playing my warrior or my necromancer, I would much rather see a thief using DS then one using SMELD. Somehing much nastier will be coming your way after an smeld then a few daggers.

>

>

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree then.

 

I've been running it and testing it out for the past few days and all it's really turned into is a "yolo" no-thinking skill.

 

You're right about it being bland in regards to endure pain or thieves leaving stealth. That's exactly my point; we don't need any more of that type of gameplay. It's nice to finally have a good buff, but truthfully, we didn't need all of that, and it's just a bit ridiculous. We complain about the same types of skills on mirage, but when they're given to us we're happy about it. But that's just my perspective.