"You're not Druid/Chrono? Bye bye then..."

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Not that i have much of a clue, but considering that chrono shield skill 4 is basically a cc + quickness skill. And wells are healing as well as doing powerful unique boons alongside some conditions, I dunno, These skills do way too much utility things imo.

>

>

 

Because they are doing multiple things you need to chose if you need to save them or not, basicaly you are chosing cc or quickness uptime

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > Chrono can give both alacrity and quickness, its the reason why people take it.

>

> It's one of the reasons why but not the only one. In my opinion, the list is pretty expansive for why Chrono is taken. It also isn't very easy to solve.

>

> 1. Bountiful Disillusionment in Chaos. Access to extra might, vigor, fury, prot, stability in a group setting makes the gameplay way more safe and consistent. Also buffs warrior, deadeye, arcane ele, etc.

> 2. Signet of Inspiration. One huge difference between FB/Rev and Chrono is that chrono can maintain boons that it doesn't generate itself (or permanently itself). A few big hitters are protection from stone spirit, retaliation for/from DH, Aegis from numerous sources, etc. Extra uptime on might, fury, vigor, regen, prot, etc.

> 3. Strong CC with many options. Focus, tides of time, moa, gravity well, etc. Lots of CC that can be easily customized for the fight.

> 4. One thing that people don't talk about as much is the fact that people would continue to play chrono even if 1-3 are nerfed (or other classes buffed) simply because they have it geared and have developed strategies around using chrono. 3 years of chrono strats, players, gear, etc won't just go away if another option becomes comparable.

>

 

Not really. What you are conveniently leaving out is the fact that chrono was used even in builds not using chaos in the past. So that is point 1 and 2 out the window. Chrono was meta even before he provided uptime to most boons. On some bosses the class still is without chaos (if a skilled enough chrono is present).

 

Yes strong cc is true, there is enough cc on damage classes which could take it in case this was ever reduced. Cc and breakbar damage was never a reason for bringing a class. The gained damage could easily be covered by another class wich brings quickness and alacrity with higher damage but less cc.

 

Yes chrono is a strong package (with lack in almost only 1 area being damage) .Yet the dominant reason why the class is being taken is and always has been quickness and alacrity. Everything else can be worked around and has in the past.

[thrag.9740]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Not that i have much of a clue, but considering that chrono shield skill 4 is basically a cc + quickness skill. And wells are healing as well as doing powerful unique boons alongside some conditions, I dunno, These skills do way too much utility things imo.

>

>

While technically correct, shield 4 is the block skill which summons a phantasms and applies slow. Slow of course is a soft cc, and summoning a phantasms does share quickness (along with all other boons). I think your trying to refer to shield 5, tides of time. ToT is legitimately broken, because it multi hit's big hitbox. But many skills are dual purpose, if ToT was only alacrity or only cc, there would be no choice about when to use it. For example, holo's (running bomb kit) use big ol bomb off cool down because its a dps increase, but also a cc skill, so in optimizing their dps they are sacrificing their cc availability. Similarly, chrono has a choice between optimizing alacrity uptime and cc availability.

 

As for healing wells, those wells only having any noticeable healing if you spec hard for healer. A chrono that only gives boons, but no healing, does 9k dps. If your willing to tank its dps down to 2-3k you can get some decent healing (not enough for a bad group to replace a druid, but enough for a good group to roll condi druid or condi soulbeast + spirits probably). I think its important to discuss which build you believe is overpowered. For example, power chrono dps build has strong burst, but that is not related to chaos chrono (9k dps).

 

As for the 2-3k dps healer + boon chrono, I agree it is powerful. But its only powerful for experienced groups that can dodge damage enough to make a full magi druid unnecessary. That's not exactly your typical gw2 group. Additionally, I think its quite nice that in fractals, druids can be dropped for a single healer + boons chrono. In 5 man content, 3 fixed classes + 2 dps is a little restrictive. Nerfing chrono's weak heals isn't going to change the meta in raids, but could hit fractals where chrono-healer is more common, but even there its not exactly the majority of groups running heal chrono.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > There is only one class that can do what chrono does, and it is chrono. Only one class has such quickness+alacrity uptime.>

> > >

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > First, kitten?

> > > > >

> > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here.

> > >

> > > Feel free to show how is it legitimate that one class has control over two most important boons in the game, and only it has the capacity to do them in such a combination. And how is the difference minimal? It even can't be since no other class has such quickness and alacrity generation.

> >

> > Easy.

> > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

> >

> Which in the current state of the game means that #1 is more viable and consequential than #2 and #3 as support and thus indirectly as a "tank". So they arent even applying for the same role or within the same party compostion. Which is literally what i sad when i mention what balance is in my previous post.

There are only 2 reasons why people take chrono over FB/Renegade.

1- Firebrand Mantra bug not hitting subsquads.

Solution : Fix.

2- They occupy 2 slots in a **subsquad** and 2 Renegades is overkill in a squad.

Solution : Make Renegade utilities and mechanics target 10 man.

Easy.

> And again, not all boons are the same. I dont know why at this point some players are even pretending that quickness + alacrity are not far more consequential than other boons.

Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > You mean pressing a mantra and giving 6 to 12 seconds of quickness or pressing F2 and giving 6 to 12 seconds of alacrity? Yeah, "no means of such quickness and alacrity generation".

>

> Huh? I assume you are talking about guardian and revenant, neither which of can give both quickness and alacrity. I was talking about professions that can give both, and thus basically free up slots in party compostion

So? Chrono has to give up all her dps, Firebrand doesn't have to and Renegade can go hybrid or support. Even support Renegade has 10K more dps than Chrono.

> The only class that can get quickness and/or alacrity from mantra and/or F2 skill is a chronomancer. Which is literally my entire point. Which you have just proved

 

[Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

[Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

[stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

[Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

[Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

[serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > Chrono can give both alacrity and quickness, its the reason why people take it.

> >

> > It's one of the reasons why but not the only one. In my opinion, the list is pretty expansive for why Chrono is taken. It also isn't very easy to solve.

> >

> > 1. Bountiful Disillusionment in Chaos. Access to extra might, vigor, fury, prot, stability in a group setting makes the gameplay way more safe and consistent. Also buffs warrior, deadeye, arcane ele, etc.

> > 2. Signet of Inspiration. One huge difference between FB/Rev and Chrono is that chrono can maintain boons that it doesn't generate itself (or permanently itself). A few big hitters are protection from stone spirit, retaliation for/from DH, Aegis from numerous sources, etc. Extra uptime on might, fury, vigor, regen, prot, etc.

> > 3. Strong CC with many options. Focus, tides of time, moa, gravity well, etc. Lots of CC that can be easily customized for the fight.

> > 4. One thing that people don't talk about as much is the fact that people would continue to play chrono even if 1-3 are nerfed (or other classes buffed) simply because they have it geared and have developed strategies around using chrono. 3 years of chrono strats, players, gear, etc won't just go away if another option becomes comparable.

> >

>

> Not really. What you are conveniently leaving out is the fact that chrono was used even in builds not using chaos in the past. So that is point 1 and 2 out the window. Chrono was meta even before he provided uptime to most boons. On some bosses the class still is without chaos (if a skilled enough chrono is present).

>

> Yes strong cc is true, there is enough cc on damage classes which could take it in case this was ever reduced. Cc and breakbar damage was never a reason for bringing a class. The gained damage could easily be covered by another class wich brings quickness and alacrity with higher damage but less cc.

>

> Yes chrono is a strong package (with lack in almost only 1 area being damage) .Yet the dominant reason why the class is being taken is and always has been quickness and alacrity. Everything else can be worked around and has in the past.

 

My list wasn't meant to be expansive, rather just in addition to the obvious quickness/alacrity. I'm not arguing that isn't the main reason...just that it isn't the only reason.

 

Just because people didn't take Chaos in the past doesn't mean it isn't a factor for how strong chrono is. Roughly the first year or so of raids people ran 4/4/2 with a single chrono and rev for boon duration. Does it mean that was the most optimal way at the time? Turns out it wasn't. Alacrity at that time was even stronger the highest DPS class at the time was heavily impacted by alacrity uptime (DPS Staff Tempest). All this means is that the community wasn't 100% correct in being optimal for raids at that time...which is okay.

 

In addition, you are conveniently leaving out the reason why Chaos wasn't meta in the past. The reason was that prior to the mesmer phantasm rework, shattering your phantasms came at the cost of alacrity. This means the major benefit of Chaos (i.e. sharing a ton of useful boons after shattering) was not as beneficial because it meant drastically lower alacrity uptime (unless you played it perfect with shattering just before shield 4).

 

Now that shattering clones to gain boons doesn't negatively impact your alacrity uptime, Chaos becomes a much greater benefit to Chrono vs other quickness/alacrity setups. Again...not the only reason...just additional ones.

 

There are bosses where it is advantageous to not run Chaos, you are correct. I personally don't believe that is in a high enough abundance to negate the fact that Chaos is a benefit over ren/FB combo. In addition, my point #2 still stands even if you don't run Chaos. SoI is busted because any other boon generation from other sources is effectively 100% due to SoI.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> Just because people didn't take Chaos in the past doesn't mean it isn't a factor for how strong chrono is. Roughly the first year or so of raids people ran 4/4/2 with a single chrono and rev for boon duration. Does it mean that was the most optimal way at the time? Turns out it wasn't.

Why do you think it wasn't? If you don't remember, shift from 4/4/2 to mirror comp happened not because people found out a better strategy, but because of changes to revs . The new strategy ended up better simply because the old one was no longer working.

 

> In addition, you are conveniently leaving out the reason why Chaos wasn't meta in the past. The reason was that prior to the mesmer phantasm rework, shattering your phantasms came at the cost of alacrity. This means the major benefit of Chaos (i.e. sharing a ton of useful boons after shattering) was not as beneficial because it meant drastically lower alacrity uptime (unless you played it perfect with shattering just before shield 4).

>

> Now that shattering clones to gain boons doesn't negatively impact your alacrity uptime, Chaos becomes a much greater benefit to Chrono vs other quickness/alacrity setups. Again...not the only reason...just additional ones.

If people decided to sacrifice all that boon generation in order to be able to better upkeep alacrity, doesn't it show you the difference in importance of those two things? All those additional boons were inconsequential (because all of them, if necessary, can be already supplied by other classes). All that mattered was Alacrity and Quickness uptime.

 

The same is true even now.

 

 

 

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> [Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

> [Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

> [stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

> [Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

> [Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

> [serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

 

Those are two professions, guardian and firebrand. Not one profession. Which I am saying this entire time. Nobody ever said that there aren't classes that have quickness or alacrity beside chronomancer.

 

 

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

 

> Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

 

Sure

 

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

 

> Easy.

> Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

>

 

You see, this "equation" is true only if term "boon" means the same thing in all three statements. Considering these classes do not give the same boons the general category of boons doesn't mean the same thing in each particular instance. As your comparison is focused on quantity and not quality, this comparison can be valid only if boons given by guardian, mesmer and revenant are considered to be of the same consequence for the team output.

 

Not to mention how this comparison only plays a role in situation where quickness firebrand is geared in dps gear. And since guardian that intends to give out quickness is not geared in dps gear this "strong dps" is a hypothetical that doesn't even exit in the game. No meta build has dps guardian with quickness, and thats for a reason

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > Just because people didn't take Chaos in the past doesn't mean it isn't a factor for how strong chrono is. Roughly the first year or so of raids people ran 4/4/2 with a single chrono and rev for boon duration. Does it mean that was the most optimal way at the time? Turns out it wasn't.

> Why do you think it wasn't? If you don't remember, shift from 4/4/2 to mirror comp happened not because people found out a better strategy, but because of changes to revs . The new strategy ended up better simply because the old one was no longer working.

>

> > In addition, you are conveniently leaving out the reason why Chaos wasn't meta in the past. The reason was that prior to the mesmer phantasm rework, shattering your phantasms came at the cost of alacrity. This means the major benefit of Chaos (i.e. sharing a ton of useful boons after shattering) was not as beneficial because it meant drastically lower alacrity uptime (unless you played it perfect with shattering just before shield 4).

> >

> > Now that shattering clones to gain boons doesn't negatively impact your alacrity uptime, Chaos becomes a much greater benefit to Chrono vs other quickness/alacrity setups. Again...not the only reason...just additional ones.

> If people decided to sacrifice all that boon generation in order to be able to better upkeep alacrity, doesn't it show you the difference in importance of those two things? All those additional boons were inconsequential (because all of them, if necessary, can be already supplied by other classes). All that mattered was Alacrity and Quickness uptime.

>

> The same is true even now.

>

>

>

 

The 4/4/2 comment is partially correct. The Rev nerfs did have some involvement. But there were bosses that ran 5/5 at that time, such as VG for distorts. My point wasn't to dive into the reason of the 4/4/2 swap to 5/5 but rather to point out that 4/4/2 was always mathematically worse, but it still happened.

 

What's funny is that the argument around other classes bringing the inconsequential boons in some amount is actually another argument in the benefit of chrono due to how busted SoI is.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > [Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

> > [Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

> > [stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

> > [Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

> > [Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

> > [serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

>

> Those are two professions, guardian and firebrand. Not one profession. Which I am saying this entire time. Nobody ever said that there aren't classes that have quickness or alacrity beside chronomancer.

>

>

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

>

> Sure

>

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > Easy.

> > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

> >

>

> You see, this "equation" is true only if term "boon" means the same thing in all three statements. Considering these classes do not give the same boons the general category of boons doesn't mean the same thing in each particular instance. As your comparison is focused on quantity and not quality, this comparison can be valid only if boons given by guardian, mesmer and revenant are considered to be of the same consequence for the team output.

>

> Not to mention how this comparison only plays a role in situation where quickness firebrand is geared in dps gear. And since guardian that intends to give out quickness is not geared in dps gear this "strong dps" is a hypothetical that doesn't even exit in the game. No meta build has dps guardian with quickness, and thats for a reason

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

1) inspiration+chronomancer are also 2 proffesions

2) dps quickness firebrand exist and have around 27k dps. Gear is full viper with sigil of concentration and firebrand runes

Edit: if you thought firebrand and revenant then you are correct. 1+1=2. But if there are no spirits in game then 27+22>15+10 (dont know exact condi druid dps)

[castillle.5248]

Last time I tried quickness firebrand months ago, I kept giving quickness to the wrong people in raid training. Has this been fixed already?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > >

> > > [Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

> > > [Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

> > > [stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

> > > [Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

> > > [Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

> > > [serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

> >

> > Those are two professions, guardian and firebrand. Not one profession. Which I am saying this entire time. Nobody ever said that there aren't classes that have quickness or alacrity beside chronomancer.

> >

> >

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > > Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

> >

> > Sure

> >

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > > Easy.

> > > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> > > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> > > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

> > >

> >

> > You see, this "equation" is true only if term "boon" means the same thing in all three statements. Considering these classes do not give the same boons the general category of boons doesn't mean the same thing in each particular instance. As your comparison is focused on quantity and not quality, this comparison can be valid only if boons given by guardian, mesmer and revenant are considered to be of the same consequence for the team output.

> >

> > Not to mention how this comparison only plays a role in situation where quickness firebrand is geared in dps gear. And since guardian that intends to give out quickness is not geared in dps gear this "strong dps" is a hypothetical that doesn't even exit in the game. No meta build has dps guardian with quickness, and thats for a reason

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> 1) inspiration+chronomancer are also 2 proffesions

> 2) dps quickness firebrand exist and have around 27k dps. Gear is full viper with sigil of concentration and firebrand runes

> Edit: if you thought firebrand and revenant then you are correct. 1+1=2. But if there are no spirits in game then 27+22>15+10 (dont know exact condi druid dps)

 

While I will not disagree that SoI is powerful (and it is and I wouldn't wonder if Arenanet went down the road to drastically change it or make it mesmer only), you are vastly overstating how powerful it is. SoI is NOT equal to a full profession providing boons and by its self can not upkeep a boon. At best let's call it 1/2 a profession IF the correct talents are chosen which automatically locks chrono into a very specific role.

 

DPS Firebrand and Revenant were already mentioned by thrag and they huge damage disparity to chrono. Even if they woul have to give up a good chunk of damage ability, they still dwarf chrono by a huge dps difference.

 

I do not believe any one here (at least not myself) is arguing that chrono is not powerful in its own way. The main argument is which balance approach is healthiest to the game. That is the main disagreement (not counting the occasional random voice which comes fully uneducated into the debate). I have to agree with Astralporing.1957 here and prefer if other alternatives were given instead of simply getting out the nerf bat and starting to wack around.

 

Personally I'm fine with any approach:

 

- removal of alacrity (or making it caster only) while unfortunate game play and variety wise, if there is no other way to get more alternatives and balance in. Cool downs could get reworked class wide to make flow a bit better (which leads to powercreep since synergy is not required for higher performance)

 

- bringing up a couple of support options which can at least provide quickness and alacrity without having near dps performance or insane group heal (mainly due to other game modes getting unbalanced). My preferred approach to the issue. May need re-tuning once more classes are able to upkeep alacrity and quickness and effects can be seen

 

- nerfing chrono - I'll survive, I've stuck with this class through way way way worse and I personally have enough alternatives I can play in group compositions and am willing and able to put in the work (practice wise) if need be. Still I believe this to be the worst option since by its own it would make grouping and raid meta against more restrictive

 

I'm not fine though with taking the nerf venue without at least exploring the other options. It just shows people not investing any time into synergy and group composition effects and simply pointing a finger at something which they disagree with.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > >

> > > > [Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

> > > > [Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

> > > > [stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

> > > > [Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

> > > > [Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

> > > > [serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

> > >

> > > Those are two professions, guardian and firebrand. Not one profession. Which I am saying this entire time. Nobody ever said that there aren't classes that have quickness or alacrity beside chronomancer.

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > >

> > > > Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

> > >

> > > Sure

> > >

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > >

> > > > Easy.

> > > > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> > > > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> > > > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You see, this "equation" is true only if term "boon" means the same thing in all three statements. Considering these classes do not give the same boons the general category of boons doesn't mean the same thing in each particular instance. As your comparison is focused on quantity and not quality, this comparison can be valid only if boons given by guardian, mesmer and revenant are considered to be of the same consequence for the team output.

> > >

> > > Not to mention how this comparison only plays a role in situation where quickness firebrand is geared in dps gear. And since guardian that intends to give out quickness is not geared in dps gear this "strong dps" is a hypothetical that doesn't even exit in the game. No meta build has dps guardian with quickness, and thats for a reason

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 1) inspiration+chronomancer are also 2 proffesions

> > 2) dps quickness firebrand exist and have around 27k dps. Gear is full viper with sigil of concentration and firebrand runes

> > Edit: if you thought firebrand and revenant then you are correct. 1+1=2. But if there are no spirits in game then 27+22>15+10 (dont know exact condi druid dps)

>

> While I will not disagree that SoI is powerful (and it is and I wouldn't wonder if Arenanet went down the road to drastically change it or make it mesmer only), you are vastly overstating how powerful it is. SoI is NOT equal to a full profession providing boons and by its self can not upkeep a boon. At best let's call it 1/2 a profession IF the correct talents are chosen which automatically locks chrono into a very specific role.

>

> DPS Firebrand and Revenant were already mentioned by thrag and they huge damage disparity to chrono. Even if they woul have to give up a good chunk of damage ability, they still dwarf chrono by a huge dps difference.

>

> I do not believe any one here (at least not myself) is arguing that chrono is not powerful in its own way. The main argument is which balance approach is healthiest to the game. That is the main disagreement (not counting the occasional random voice which comes fully uneducated into the debate). I have to agree with Astralporing.1957 here and prefer if other alternatives were given instead of simply getting out the nerf bat and starting to wack around.

>

> Personally I'm fine with any approach:

>

> - removal of alacrity (or making it caster only) while unfortunate game play and variety wise, if there is no other way to get more alternatives and balance in. Cool downs could get reworked class wide to make flow a bit better (which leads to powercreep since synergy is not required for higher performance)

>

> - bringing up a couple of support options which can at least provide quickness and alacrity without having near dps performance or insane group heal (mainly due to other game modes getting unbalanced). My preferred approach to the issue. May need re-tuning once more classes are able to upkeep alacrity and quickness and effects can be seen

>

> - nerfing chrono - I'll survive, I've stuck with this class through way way way worse and I personally have enough alternatives I can play in group compositions and am willing and able to put in the work (practice wise) if need be. Still I believe this to be the worst option since by its own it would make grouping and raid meta against more restrictive

>

> I'm not fine though with taking the nerf venue without at least exploring the other options. It just shows people not investing any time into synergy and group composition effects and simply pointing a finger at something which they disagree with.

 

First step should be fixing firebrand. After that there are few things that can be done to help another composition.

1) introduction of condiotion based concentration gear.

2) increse range on firebrand quickness

3) firebrand quickness for 10 players (but then I would decresse base duration

4) nerfing spirits

5) change herald glint f2 so it provide alacrity

 

Thosevare just a few that would help firebrand comp

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > [Mantra of Potence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Potence)

> > [Liberator's Vow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator%27s_Vow)

> > [stalwart Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed)

> > [Orders From Above](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above)

> > [Righteous Rebel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel)

> > [serene Rejuvenation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation)

>

> Those are two professions, guardian and firebrand. Not one profession. Which I am saying this entire time. Nobody ever said that there aren't classes that have quickness or alacrity beside chronomancer.

And the entire time people were telling you that Chrono sacrifices all its dps to do the things you listed.

Raids are based on DPS, and 2 Chrono + 1 Druid + Banner + 6 DPS comp has 10-15K more dps than the Firebrand renegade squad.

>

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > Please show me where I was "pretending" to do that.

>

> Sure

>

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > Easy.

> > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS.

> > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS.

> > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments.

> >

>

> You see, this "equation" is true only if term "boon" means the same thing in all three statements. Considering these classes do not give the same boons the general category of boons doesn't mean the same thing in each particular instance. As your comparison is focused on quantity and not quality, this comparison can be valid only if boons given by guardian, mesmer and revenant are considered to be of the same consequence for the team output.

You see, boons other than Might, Fury, Quickness and Alacrity are worthless if there wasn't traits like [bountiful Power](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power). So quality doesn't actually matter if you got these 4 boons covered.

> Not to mention how this comparison only plays a role in situation where quickness firebrand is geared in dps gear. And since guardian that intends to give out quickness is not geared in dps gear this "strong dps" is a hypothetical that doesn't even exit in the game. No meta build has dps guardian with quickness, and thats for a reason

Quickbrand is around 26K DPS, which is much more than 10K DPS Chaos Chrono.

Hybrid Renegade is also around 20K DPS which is much more than 10K DPS Chaos Chrono.

 

If Firebrand Mantra bug is fixed and Renegade can provide 10 man buffs, problem is solved.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

 

> Why do you think it wasn't? If you don't remember, shift from 4/4/2 to mirror comp happened not because people found out a better strategy, but because of changes to revs . The new strategy ended up better simply because the old one was no longer working.

 

And after we switched to 5/5 we noticed that kill times and total team DPS improved. It turned out that 5/5 was better all along.

 

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>

> > Why do you think it wasn't? If you don't remember, shift from 4/4/2 to mirror comp happened not because people found out a better strategy, but because of changes to revs . The new strategy ended up better simply because the old one was no longer working.

>

> And after we switched to 5/5 we noticed that kill times and total team DPS improved. It turned out that 5/5 was better all along.

>

>

It's almost like they don't read when I said this earlier :)

[nsleep.7839]

> @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> >

> > > Why do you think it wasn't? If you don't remember, shift from 4/4/2 to mirror comp happened not because people found out a better strategy, but because of changes to revs . The new strategy ended up better simply because the old one was no longer working.

> >

> > And after we switched to 5/5 we noticed that kill times and total team DPS improved. It turned out that 5/5 was better all along.

> >

> >

> It's almost like they don't read when I said this earlier :)

They don't really.

 

It's the same as when I mentioned that even if you hit one or two of the Chrono abilities, it would still be taken for its remaining things, such as the way Chronos are able to tank bosses while being perfectly still, which is only really relevant in some fights where your mobility is limited for reasons or when optimizing dps.

 

People lack a lot of comprehension on why the meta is formed, why it persists even when things are changed, and that what is meta for pugs or available on cetain sites for builds might not be the current best builds available. Also, the fact that back in the day people were still figuring stuff out, like using the Fire Elemental in the suggested meta builds and accepted as the norm instead of FGS which was discovered later to be a significant dps gain.

 

But this isn't limited to this game, and mostly happens because most players never tryharded something to the point where these things actually matter.

[Axl.8924]

I think htey need to buff other classes anyways in support:necro support could use a few changes so it can be a decent healer.

 

What about tempest? its got some good healing, and a few changes people have talked about, it would be good.

I don't hear about scrapper, what about scrapper? are they good enough for fractals?

[Linken.6345]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I think htey need to buff other classes anyways in support:necro support could use a few changes so it can be a decent healer.

>

> What about tempest? its got some good healing, and a few changes people have talked about, it would be good.

> I don't hear about scrapper, what about scrapper? are they good enough for fractals?

 

I thought scrapper were more of a wvw elite spec.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Understand this guys. From PvE perspective, support class is only used if bringing it will increase overall dps of the squad. If bringing that class lower squads dps then that build will never be meta. No matter how they buff support necro/tempest/herald/renegade.... if you dont get more dps from bringing that class then it is usless. Only reason why druid and chrono are played is because they increase squads dps. No healer can replace druid because no other healer exept herald can stack might for 10 players (so you need to use 2 slots to mightstacking classes) and even when herald has much better heals he doesnt bring as good dps increase as druid. Firebrand will never replace chrono because there are only 2 sources of alacrity and we just clarified why revenant can never replace druid.