Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 If Necro Axe is 100-0ing people, I have to wonder what glass cannon self-stacked 25 vuln on themselves. Sure, a full channel of Ghastly Claws hurts, but it's not enough to kill even a Zerker ele with full health. 75% with no damage reduction and 25 vuln? If the Necro is really lucky on crits, yeah. Dealing with Reaper is easy: kite the shroud, dodge, block, or stunbreak the hard CC skills. Do that, and you win. Hugging the big black guy with a giant scythe is not a good idea in PvP. But...but kiting means I'm not on point! How can I win if I'm not on point 100% of the time!!?!11!?! It's better to lose the point, kill the opponent, and take the point than to be killed and lose the point anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 just kite them if they're running the "dps build", they die too fast to be useful lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilman.1532 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I enjoy taking a S on them every time I get the chance. Many other builds have been much much worse recently and in the further past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Play.6104 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Can't face tank necro. Necro OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevice.2751 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. Dude, read my post again. No, no, i'll be more specific to you: "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevice.2751 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > Dude, read my post again. > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > Are you somehow saying reapers are in any way stronger than Scourge right now? Scourge, who can strip that quickness, flip their stab, chill them, weaken them, get healed by their FB, and just shit out more conditions than a reaper can EVER deal with, you're saying are in any way inferior to reapers? What are you saying? Who is dying to reapers in that time frame? Those warriors? Those invisible mesmers? Those shadowstepped thieves who are no where near that damage? Who is dying to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSin.5682 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > Dude, read my post again. > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > You will laugh at what you are writing here someday. Necromancer is a class with slow sustain, active defenses and no mobility. They have high health, yes, but its still pretty easy to burn it down. Having a third eye on team fight is not necessary. On a team fight you always need to focus in the most dangerous target. If it's the necro, then pay attention to it. Always. Once you start getting used to PvP and start applying Hit & Run & kiting tactics, Necromancers become a joke as long they don't have a support class with then. Classes like Holosmith, Herald, Guardian, DeadEye, Thief, Mesmer and Rangers can take down a Necromancer alone very smoothly. There is not even room for "mistake" when you drop a Necro from 100% to zero in a single rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > > > Dude, read my post again. > > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > > > > Are you somehow saying reapers are in any way stronger than Scourge right now? Scourge, who can strip that quickness, flip their stab, chill them, weaken them, get healed by their FB, and just kitten out more conditions than a reaper can EVER deal with, you're saying are in any way inferior to reapers? > > What are you saying? > > Who is dying to reapers in that time frame? Those warriors? Those invisible mesmers? Those shadowstepped thieves who are no where near that damage? > > Who is dying to this? Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur shit, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"SoulSin.5682" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > > > Dude, read my post again. > > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > > > > You will laugh at what you are writing here someday. > > Necromancer is a class with slow sustain, active defenses and no mobility. They have high health, yes, but its still pretty easy to burn it down. > Having a third eye on team fight is not necessary. On a team fight you always need to focus in the most dangerous target. If it's the necro, then pay attention to it. Always. > > Once you start getting used to PvP and start applying Hit & Run & kiting tactics, Necromancers become a joke as long they don't have a support class with then. > > Classes like Holosmith, Herald, Guardian, DeadEye, Thief, Mesmer and Rangers can take down a Necromancer alone very smoothly. There is not even room for "mistake" when you drop a Necro from 100% to zero in a single rotation. You're assuming i'm just trying to facetank a reaper, and that's not the case. You're assuming again i'm not using basic tactics in pvp, and that's not the case again. The point of this topic, from the beggining, is that there's a spec that is denying access to a circle (objective) just like the old scourge monster, but now it's ok? Scourges got toned down pretty hard, have giant tells for their offensive bombs and looks like they're in a good place right now (i even think that last nerf to dhummfire was unecessary). Problem is reapers are ruining teamfights worst than scourges was doing. Less sustain? Low mobility? ok? They have their flaws, so lets work on buff a bit of this. But making a powercreep monster that will RIP everything he runs into like a train don't look like good balancing for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). Look up the term "window of opportunity" and you will have your answer as to why Reaper's current state is fairly healthy for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 OP it really sounds like you have some issues fighting reapers in general and you are basing something being OP on your own notion of how skilled you are and your inability to beat something you feel you should. Maybe you should be a little more humble and ask for help instead of saying " well I can't do it and I am obviously good, better than people I am fighting, so it must be broken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 If cap points were bigger where you could effectively kite while contesting I'm sure no one would complain about reaper... Or many other specs for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kicast.1459 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Reapers complained last months... now they are op as f u c k and want to remain... Business as usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warscythes.9307 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > > > > > Dude, read my post again. > > > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > > > > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > > > > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > > > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > > > > > > > Are you somehow saying reapers are in any way stronger than Scourge right now? Scourge, who can strip that quickness, flip their stab, chill them, weaken them, get healed by their FB, and just kitten out more conditions than a reaper can EVER deal with, you're saying are in any way inferior to reapers? > > > > What are you saying? > > > > Who is dying to reapers in that time frame? Those warriors? Those invisible mesmers? Those shadowstepped thieves who are no where near that damage? > > > > Who is dying to this? > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). I don't play that much PvP but from what I can tell there are 3 main differences from personal observations. 1) Reapers cannot be healed in shroud but scourge can. This means especially in pug matches, a FB following a scourge can just press buttons and the scourge would never die while pumping out damage. We all know by now that a lone scourge is a dead scourge, but a scourge with a support is terrifying especially back then. Reaper have to coordinate with the support to heal and that's much harder if not impossible to do in solo queue. 2) Reaper has to be on point to do most of the damage as he is melee first and foremost. Before if you want to contest the point, Scourge can just drop a shade on the circle and let you decap if they can't beat you in melee range. So to get to them you have to run through the spam in order to hit the Scourge. Reaper has to melee for majority of the time so if he wants to contest the point and hit you. Then he has to be on the point and get hit. Essentially the circle of influence is much greater for a scourge than a reaper. 3) Reaper is much more vulnerable to debuff such as weakness than scourge. If the might gets corrupted and Reaper has might all the time, then the damage loss is pretty significant while Scourge is barely affected if at all. Any other sources of weakness etc has a greater effect mostly because Reaper doesn't deal with condi removal that well. So they has easier ways of getting shutdown. Just my personal musings and observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > OP it really sounds like you have some issues fighting reapers in general and you are basing something being OP on your own notion of how skilled you are and your inability to beat something you feel you should. > Maybe you should be a little more humble and ask for help instead of saying " well I can't do it and I am obviously good, better than people I am fighting, so it must be broken" Look, i'm not saying i'm "obviously better" then every reaper. What i'm saying is that i play all classes and i know when someone is making a lot of mistakes, and getting free out of jail cards while i'm playing the piano on weaver and can't put enough pressure on that guy (i mean, i put pressure, but it's not enought because when he's about to drop the second health pool pops and i have to run like there's no tomorrow). While if i make ONE mistake, i'm just downed (and when i say mistake, it's not just a failed dodge or stunbreaker, most of the time i'm not even the target, i'ts just collateral damage). And remember, the whole point of this posts still stands for: "How can this (reaper wrecking train) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (old time scourge)? And least but not less important: how can i beat a reaper as a weaver? A serious question, i would really like some details if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). > > Look up the term "window of opportunity" and you will have your answer as to why Reaper's current state is fairly healthy for the game. I would really appreciate if you could go a little more in-depth on your comment. When, specifically is that window of opportunity? Specially for a weaver (lets take cooldowns and all in consideration and the fact the i'm playing a melee class) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 Just to add another note on this topic. I was really trying hard to make weaver works, and it wasn't going so bad. Played 4 matches just now as a Holosmith. Now reaper is ok. I proc my first invul (active), no chill, the guy keeps spinning, spend shroud, if something hits hard the second (passive) invul will proc and i'm still safe, at least after that it's a game of "who dodges better"... guy still have the "original" health pool and i have the damage to put him down. I would just like to play differente professions and have fun, but if it's not possible, lets cheese the shit out of it, for the lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 I don't think anyone here appreciates those instakill fights, got hit hard by some soulbeasts too. Of course you can build for this and """have fun""", but this is really what we, as a community, want for this game? 100 to 0 health in less than 2 seconds unless you have a passive invul (that from a soulbeast, from stealth)... if that's it, ok, case closed. I just thought people wanted good fights and some fun, but it's really all for the lulz. People will defend their professions to feel better, i'll just face and accept it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > > > So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions? > > > > > > Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode? > > > > > > > > > > Dude if you're dying as a scourge vs a freaking reaper its a L2P issue. > > > > > No clue how you can die to a reaper as a scourge. You literally counter a reaper as a scourge and scourge are overall the better class > > > > > > > > > > players are just too used to Reapers being pushovers. They want them to be easy kills. Now they're not so now people want to complain. > > > > > > > > Dude, read my post again. > > > > No, no, i'll be more specific to you: > > > > > > > > "So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights). > > > > How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?" > > > > > > > > I've made a comparisson of the 2 specs (people were complaining about scourges at some point, now are complaining about reapers). > > > > Where did you get the info that i'm dying as a scourge to reapers? > > > > > > > > > > Are you somehow saying reapers are in any way stronger than Scourge right now? Scourge, who can strip that quickness, flip their stab, chill them, weaken them, get healed by their FB, and just kitten out more conditions than a reaper can EVER deal with, you're saying are in any way inferior to reapers? > > > > > > What are you saying? > > > > > > Who is dying to reapers in that time frame? Those warriors? Those invisible mesmers? Those shadowstepped thieves who are no where near that damage? > > > > > > Who is dying to this? > > > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). > > I don't play that much PvP but from what I can tell there are 3 main differences from personal observations. > > 1) Reapers cannot be healed in shroud but scourge can. This means especially in pug matches, a FB following a scourge can just press buttons and the scourge would never die while pumping out damage. We all know by now that a lone scourge is a dead scourge, but a scourge with a support is terrifying especially back then. Reaper have to coordinate with the support to heal and that's much harder if not impossible to do in solo queue. > > 2) Reaper has to be on point to do most of the damage as he is melee first and foremost. Before if you want to contest the point, Scourge can just drop a shade on the circle and let you decap if they can't beat you in melee range. So to get to them you have to run through the spam in order to hit the Scourge. Reaper has to melee for majority of the time so if he wants to contest the point and hit you. Then he has to be on the point and get hit. Essentially the circle of influence is much greater for a scourge than a reaper. > > 3) Reaper is much more vulnerable to debuff such as weakness than scourge. If the might gets corrupted and Reaper has might all the time, then the damage loss is pretty significant while Scourge is barely affected if at all. Any other sources of weakness etc has a greater effect mostly because Reaper doesn't deal with condi removal that well. So they has easier ways of getting shutdown. > > Just my personal musings and observations. Yeah, i'll agree with mostly everything you said! I think Scourges are way more balanced than reapers atm (even being "better" overall) If you look at the influx of Reapers in spvp it'll just remember Scourges "golden times", the damage is over the top. I'll try to record some footage in my potato PC and show exactly what i think it's wrong atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > > > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > > > > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > > > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > > > > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > > > > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > > > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > > > > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > > > > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). > > > > Look up the term "window of opportunity" and you will have your answer as to why Reaper's current state is fairly healthy for the game. > > I would really appreciate if you could go a little more in-depth on your comment. > When, specifically is that window of opportunity? Specially for a weaver (lets take cooldowns and all in consideration and the fact the i'm playing a melee class) The window of opportunity against Reaper is the same no matter what class you are playing. There's one minor one, that's longer, and one major one that's shorter. The minor one is Soul Spiral and Executioner's Scythe. These almost always have a 24 second cooldown and are often chained one into another. Once these have been used, you can go fight them, keeping in mind that they still do put out decent damage even outside of those skills. That is just the high-burst combo for all varieties of Reaper. Getting out of range when he starts to use Executioner's Scythe (even with Quickness, you have ~3/4 second cast time to react to) also gets you out of range for the follow-up Soul Spiral. Watch this particular Reaper carefully for how they follow up on a failed ES hit. If they don't go right into Soul Spiral, you will have to adjust your tactics. Executioner's Scythe isn't that bad to be hit by if you have a stunbreak available and are above 50% health. If this is your situation, I actually suggest you let the stun land, then stunbreak and dodge away to bait them into using Soul Spiral. You want to open up this window as wide as possible. The major window I referred to is the 10 seconds after the Reaper leaves Shroud. Not only do they not have their heavy burst combo available (regardless of cooldowns on the skills themselves, they cannot be used during this period), but they are also very weak defensively. Fighting Necros of any sort requires mentally timing things out. Unlike other classes, their defenses are unable to be chained together, as it's overloaded onto their class mechanic instead of spread out over multiple skills or traits. For Reaper and Scourge, these defensive periods are also their strongest offensive periods, so engaging them directly during those periods is best avoided. They don't last long, so you will be able to go back in to fight them soon. That said, because Elementalist (all varieties) is so dependent on Attunement cooldowns, the Chill Reaper puts out can be incredibly oppressive to them in particular. It's far from an impossible fight, but Elementalist vs. Reaper heavily favors Reaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 OP we get you are looking to have fun you're fighting on elementslist, a class pretty much the entire community agrees needs help ,into one of its more difficult/losing matchups and claiming the class is overpowered. It's similar to how for time in memorial necro players complain about thief. Or rev players about condi. Chill seriously messed with attunement swapping disrupting the flow of combat for elementslist more than it does others. There is a bunch of useful advise in the thread and there is a thread dedicated to fighting the "new" high damage reaper build and how to shut it down. I would understand your complaints if they were about spiteful spirit or chill if death. The latter only being so strong now since over time the chance if someone having three boons for max damage has gone from low to pretty much 100% . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > @"Malafaia.8903" said: > > > > > > > > Looks like there's really a communication problem here (and i mean, honestly, no offense at all). > > > > What i'm trying to say is that people at some point was freaking out that Scourges could drop a red circle (on a game mode based on being inside a circle) and deny access to the place. Following me at this, right? (forget about that "fight on point hur dur kitten, you can kite, obviously, but the nuclear bomb shouldn't be a thing anyway). > > > > > > > > Whats happening now is the same, but with reapers. If you see the Scythe, just run, or you'll drop (and you'll drop faster than in the good "old" Scourge time). They're denying access to that point just like Scourges. > > > > And then we go back to the first question i've put to this topic: > > > > > > > > "How can this (reapers, the new king of powercreep) be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions (scourges)?" > > > > > > > > And to answer your last question: "Who is dying to this?" > > > > Elementalists are dying. I'm playing weaver atm and it's just impossible to kill a reaper. It's frustrating because you're clearly putting a lot of pressure and overskilling your opponent really bad, then (when the scythe appears, lol) you have to go full defensive, evades, stunbreaks (if you made a mistake), run, kite like hell, that assuming you already burnd some defensives against axe 2, and when the guy drop reaper mode he'll heal, you'll pressure him thru all his soul, but that LF is ready again, so the loop starts again. > > > > > > > > Yes, eles are in a bad position atm, the damage isn't sufficient to put down much foes, but when the skill gap is so big (using the reaper example again) and even like this you can't put the guy down, something looks wrong. Specially wrong when your sustain isn't sufficient against the 2 ~ 3 skills that will put you down so easily. > > > > > > > > That's being my experience in the last few days against reapers. I'm pressuring and putting down spellbreakers, holosmiths, mirages, but i can't put the reaper down. I can sustain even outnumbered by those other professions. But i just need ONE mistake to be taken down by a reaper (even the whole point of weaver being the sustain). > > > > > > Look up the term "window of opportunity" and you will have your answer as to why Reaper's current state is fairly healthy for the game. > > > > I would really appreciate if you could go a little more in-depth on your comment. > > When, specifically is that window of opportunity? Specially for a weaver (lets take cooldowns and all in consideration and the fact the i'm playing a melee class) > > The window of opportunity against Reaper is the same no matter what class you are playing. There's one minor one, that's longer, and one major one that's shorter. > > The minor one is Soul Spiral and Executioner's Scythe. These almost always have a 24 second cooldown and are often chained one into another. Once these have been used, you can go fight them, keeping in mind that they still do put out decent damage even outside of those skills. That is just the high-burst combo for all varieties of Reaper. Getting out of range when he starts to use Executioner's Scythe (even with Quickness, you have ~3/4 second cast time to react to) also gets you out of range for the follow-up Soul Spiral. > > Watch this particular Reaper carefully for how they follow up on a failed ES hit. If they don't go right into Soul Spiral, you will have to adjust your tactics. Executioner's Scythe isn't that bad to be hit by if you have a stunbreak available and are above 50% health. If this is your situation, I actually suggest you let the stun land, then stunbreak and dodge away to bait them into using Soul Spiral You want to open up this window as wide as possible. > > The major window I referred to is the 10 seconds after the Reaper leaves Shroud. Not only do they not have their heavy burst combo available (regardless of cooldowns on the skills themselves, they cannot be used during this period), but they are also very weak defensively. > > Fighting Necros of any sort requires mentally timing things out. Unlike other classes, their defenses are unable to be chained together, as it's overloaded onto their class mechanic instead of spread out over multiple skills or traits. For Reaper and Scourge, these defensive periods are also their strongest offensive periods, so engaging them directly during those periods is best avoided. They don't last long, so you will be able to go back in to fight them soon. > > That said, because Elementalist (all varieties) is so dependent on Attunement cooldowns, the Chill Reaper puts out can be incredibly oppressive to them in particular. It's far from an impossible fight, but Elementalist vs. Reaper heavily favors Reaper. Yup, appreciate your efforts on explaining those mechanics. But i still won't survive if in reach of the reaper (assuming avoidind ES and SS). The auto-attack Life rend chain hits like a truck too (ok, i'm exagerating a bit here, but we can agree that's a PRETTY SOLID auto-attack, right?) I agree on that second window you referer when they leave shroud. That's the moment i can put the most pressure. But what usually happens is that i need to go a bit defensive going to water (if i got hit by anything while he was in shroud, even the autos, or i'm risking dying by his axe/ GS) and a weaver don't have the damage output (cooldowns) to put them down even in that big window if you don't avoid EVERY hit while the guy is in shroud (so you don't need to waste time on the water attunement). Basically what i was trying to say: i made one mistake = DED, the guy made 3 or 4 mistakes, free out of jail card. What i'm asking is: don't make a monster that can hit so hard that a class that's only usable as a sustain bot can't handle it, at least with some kind of fairness. I won't even get on the chill x attunement shit because if you got chilled while need cleansing (going water)... yeah... DED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malafaia.8903 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > OP we get you are looking to have fun you're fighting on elementslist, a class pretty much the entire community agrees needs help ,into one of its more difficult/losing matchups and claiming the class is overpowered. It's similar to how for time in memorial necro players complain about thief. Or rev players about condi. Chill seriously messed with attunement swapping disrupting the flow of combat for elementslist more than it does others. > > There is a bunch of useful advise in the thread and there is a thread dedicated to fighting the "new" high damage reaper build and how to shut it down. > > I would understand your complaints if they were about spiteful spirit or chill if death. The latter only being so strong now since over time the chance if someone having three boons for max damage has gone from low to pretty much 100% . Yeah, i'm very disappointed that i was ALMOST making weaver works at the point of having some fun, but today, after playing a bit of holo and a bit of scourge, i've just abandoned that stupid idea, lol. One point i'll still stands for: Look at the big influx of Necros (reapers) on ranked pvp. You know something isn't right when that kind of thing is happening (again). Then the cicle of nerfing the profession to oblivion will occour and we'll be discussing exactly the opposite here. That's just sad. Again, me, personally, want some good fights, not infinite bunkering, but not Necro/Soulbeast instakills. This isn't funny, this discourages new players, this is bad for pvp in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 I really really hope they don't nerf reaper again, because i just came back and i heard reapers are still below most classes in dps.Reapers are supposedly at 31k dps and thieves/engis/eles/mesmers etc are are around 33-35k ish Support classes are aroudn 28-30k dps so we are only slightly above a support, and we lack support as reaper function to be really contributive, so if reaper gets nerfed, we basically get /Autokicked from raids/fractals. And for pvp:reapers in particular get picked off by every other class with ranged and burst: Mesmers Thieves Rangers Probably holomancers since they got good defense and massive dmg. They are a glass build now which the reaper form doesn't last very long, and once we are outside of reaper form we are very easy to kill. If we are nerfed to meh status or less, we will have nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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