Humans

[Castigator.3470]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> [A comparative analysis of human and charr population using ingame settlements.]

Nice analysis, and I agree with the basic premise that humans and charr are the most populous races in central Tyria.

I did an estimate in an earlier thread. The variation between low and high estimate may drive statisticians to tears, but such is life, without reliable census of Tyria.

Sylvari are too young to field comparable numbers, since there is only one source of sylvari and the firstborn were twelve individuals. This means with secondborn and thirdborn all coming from the pale tree, sylvari are maybe numbering in at a few thousand. Even stranger, if sylvari can die of old age and the growth rate stays constant, their population will stagnate at a certain number.

I have no idea how many Norn exist. They are larger than charr and they live in a harsh environment. This indicates low population density, which is fitting, considering that they are actually a giant subrace and not related to humans. Even worse, Norn likely resent any census as a violation of their free spirit. So I will refrain from counting norn, for now.

 

But even then, humans are as far from dying race as they could be, having taken the loss of two kingdoms, a Palawa Joko to their Elona, and depending on the health of Cantha, they might still be the most populous race on Tyria the planet with a huge lead over the charr.

On the continent Tyria they are likely number two, after the charr, or

in front of the militaristic cat people.

 

So what if humans are the versatile race that can excel in all areas and generally has its members specialize and practise division of labour to a larger extent than the others? This allows humans to be present everywhere.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> I have no idea how many Norn exist. They are larger than charr and they live in a harsh environment. This indicates low population density, which is fitting, considering that they are actually a giant subrace and not related to humans. Even worse, Norn likely resent any census as a violation of their free spirit. So I will refrain from counting norn, for now.

 

Yeah. I considered attempting a similar analysis on them, since they also have a large claimed territory (asura and sylvari are mostly confined to the Tarnished Coast - they have outposts elsewhere, but they're usually labs and military encampments rather than conventional settlements) but norn culture makes the analysis (even) less straightforward. While I think there is reason to believe that a charr settlement of equivalent size to a human settlement on the map still has a smaller number of actual individuals, it's at least likely that a charr village and a human village are each in the low thousands, or at least a few hundred.

 

Norn homesteads, on the other hand, likely generally represent extended family or friendship groups of maybe a few dozen. Hoelbrak itself is also probably quite a bit smaller in population than any of the other racial capitals, probably in the thousands. To be fair, on a similar principle to 'settlements are larger than they appear ingame', there may well be _more_ steadings dotted around the place that we actually see in the game.

 

The best indication, though, is probably the statement made by ArenaNet a while back that despite the average norn being considerably more formidable than the average charr, it would probably only have taken a single charr legion to overwhelm the norn. While population demographics may have shifted since then, they probably haven't shifted so much that conclusions drawn from this observation would be wildly off. On this basis, it's probably reasonable to conclude that the entire norn population is less than that of the Iron Legion, and by extension, Kryta.

[Lucius.2140]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> umh sweety to say the humans have no aptitude for magic or even science is false

>

> watchknights and every major character that's cast impressive magic without the help of magitech or an artifact being human for a start

 

That was a troll commentary, the later is the real.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> The best indication, though, is probably the statement made by ArenaNet a while back that despite the average norn being considerably more formidable than the average charr, it would probably only have taken a single charr legion to overwhelm the norn. While population demographics may have shifted since then, they probably haven't shifted so much that conclusions drawn from this observation would be wildly off. On this basis, it's probably reasonable to conclude that the entire norn population is less than that of the Iron Legion, and by extension, Kryta.

 

Population size doesn't mean military prowess. Anet comment likely referred to the fact that Charr have centralized government and military, norn don't. Charr have speialized military technology, norn don't. Complete organization of Charr society is centered around supporting war effort. Norn isn't.

All of these play much larger factor in military prowess than population size

 

 

Also, considering Norn are the longest living species in the game its safe to assume they have population that stay fertile for longer periods. This means higher birth rates. Existance of healing magic and general scientific state of the world suggest a period with low mortality rate. By this alone, Norn should be most populous race in the game.

It is possible that Norn culture (adventure time) serves as a detriment to their population growth as its safe to assume that most Norn pick their "legend building" over starting a family, and thus radically postpone reproduction or keep it to the minimum.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > The best indication, though, is probably the statement made by ArenaNet a while back that despite the average norn being considerably more formidable than the average charr, it would probably only have taken a single charr legion to overwhelm the norn. While population demographics may have shifted since then, they probably haven't shifted so much that conclusions drawn from this observation would be wildly off. On this basis, it's probably reasonable to conclude that the entire norn population is less than that of the Iron Legion, and by extension, Kryta.

>

> Population size doesn't mean military prowess. Anet comment likely referred to the fact that Charr have centralized government and military, norn don't. Charr have speialized military technology, norn don't. Complete organization of Charr society is centered around supporting war effort. Norn isn't.

> All of these play much larger factor in military prowess than population size

>

>

> Also, considering Norn are the longest living species in the game its safe to assume they have population that stay fertile for longer periods. This means higher birth rates. Existance of healing magic and general scientific state of the world suggest a period with low mortality rate. By this alone, Norn should be most populous race in the game.

> It is possible that Norn culture (adventure time) serves as a detriment to their population growth as its safe to assume that most Norn pick their "legend building" over starting a family, and thus radically postpone reproduction or keep it to the minimum.

>

>

 

That's true, but the sources also talked about how warbands could not overcome the individual strength of the norn. That implies a pretty big gap between the average norn and the average charr.

 

It's possible that the benefits of centralised military control and organisation that the charr could beat the norn despite being outnumbered, even if on a smaller scale the norn can win despite being significantly outnumbered. However, there's a point at which if your enemy is both stronger than you on an individual basis _and_ has a numerical advantage, it's difficult to believe that being better organised would make the difference. The norn might not be able to win in a battle between armies, but they might not have to - guerilla warfare from an enemy that outnumbers you and beats your soldiers one-on-one is difficult to counter. If the Movement of the World was so sure that just one legion could beat the norn, I think this strongly suggests that just one legion outnumbers the norn.

 

Regarding the longevity question: that can be answered in much the same way as with elves in most fantasy, namely lower fertility. Norn women in general seem to be uninterested in spending significant periods of their life pregnant when they could be building a legend, and norn tradition is that norn should only partner with other norn of similar reputation, which also reduces the opportunity. It's also noted that the most common last words for norn tend to be something like "Hey, watch this!", "Hold my beer!", or some other set of words indicating that the speaker is about to make a bid for a Darwin Award.

 

On top of that, what we observe of the norn indicates that they're pretty sparsely populated. The Great Lodge Hoelbrak is more of a, well, _lodge_ than a city: there's lots of space to gather, but residential areas are fairly limited (now, residential areas are under-represented in the game in general, but Hoelbrak takes it to extremes unless you assume that the norn are just lying out on the floors of those massive lodges, and I doubt the individualistic norn would consider sleeping in the main rooms of those giant lodges to be suitable long-term accommodations). Out in the wilds, the typical norn outpost is a single steading, or maybe two or three in close proximity, and the number of norn in a single steading is probably measured in the dozens _at most._

 

The carrying capacity of the land also argues against a large norn population. They're supposed to get most of their nutrition from hunting - that should mean that a considerable amount more land is needed to support a single norn, even a human-sized one, than a human who gets most of their nutrition from grain farming, or even a charr or human getting most of their nutrition from herding animals. Norn being bigger aggravates that, and the Shiverpeaks likely being less fertile on the whole than Kryta or Ascalon likely exacerbates it further.

 

Pretty much any way you look at it suggests that the norn have a smaller population than humans or charr.

[Genesis.8572]

I would also add to what Draxynnic has said by also commenting how the Iron Legion's hold over Ascalon remains a concerted effort between the Ash, Blood, and Iron Legions. So the population of Iron Legion alone in Ascalon is likely smaller than what is suggested in-game given that Blood and Ash are also contributing their troops in the area, with Ash legion leading the efforts against Flame in Fireheart Rise. This is also assuming that the Iron Legion is not likewise lending troops to Blood and Ash territory. And those troops may be part of the mutual arrangement to ensure that Blood and Ash gain access to Iron Legion military tech.

 

> @"Lucas.3718" said:

> But there i was asking myself, what does humans make special? Their Faith in the gods? Their versitile personality? what do you think ?

A part of this is the typical fantasy trope for humanity: humans are the adaptive jack-of-all-trades race. Humans are fairly competent in the strengths of the other races, which together packs a strong punch in the collective hands of humanity.

 

In the context of humans in GW2, humans are defined by their tenacious spirit that allows them to overcome the odds. Regardless of what they have lost in the past - their gods, their homes, their glory - they continue fighting forward with an eye on their survival and a desire to establish a brighter future for themselves. Other races likely view humans as a "dying race" because that is the cycle that many native Tyrian races have previously followed (e.g., dwarves, jotun, forgotten, seers, etc.), but in this regard, humans are different. They refuse to disappear like others had before them. Though some races find the human tendency to look backwards into the past puzzling, humans nevertheless walk brazenly into the future with courage. This is why so many of Tyria's greatest heroes have been human.

 

The geographical landscape does not support the idea that humans are dwindling in population either. It unquestionably experienced a sudden drop 250 years ago following the Searing, Cataclysm, and likely Palawa Joko's conquest. Despite that, however, the urbanization of Kryta and Ebonhawke actually supports the idea that humans have seen a relative boost in their populations. Divinity's Reach is an urban center unlike any other in present day Tyria. It is MASSIVE. It is far grander than Old Lion's Arch or Ascalon City ever were. It boasts multiple multi-ethnic districts, an elaborate system of roads, water and waste management, and hospitals. There are livable houses out the wazoo. And the settlements outside of Divinity's Reach are more conducive for supporting a growing population than what we had seen 250 years prior in Kryta.

 

A huge bulk of the Black Citadel, in contrast, is oriented towards its military complex rather than being residential in nature. So the Black Citadel, in many respects, is ironically more comparable to Ebonhawke in that it was built for war. I often find myself asking where charr "live" in Black Citadel as there is not much suggesting residential areas. Though Ebonhawke is nowhere near on the same scale as Divinity's Reach, we can the visible signs of its gradual expansion of its walls as it transformed from an outpost fortification into an urbanized fortress. The fort was most likely expanding as a result of its growing inner population. Ebonhawke may even have a larger permanent population than the Black Citadel.

 

[Elspereth.1280]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> On top of that, what we observe of the norn indicates that they're pretty sparsely populated. The Great Lodge Hoelbrak is more of a, well, _lodge_ than a city: there's lots of space to gather, but residential areas are fairly limited (now, residential areas are under-represented in the game in general, **but Hoelbrak takes it to extremes unless you assume that the norn are just lying out on the floors of those massive lodges**, and I doubt the individualistic norn would consider sleeping in the main rooms of those giant lodges to be suitable long-term accommodations). Out in the wilds, the typical norn outpost is a single steading, or maybe two or three in close proximity, and the number of norn in a single steading is probably measured in the dozens _at most._

 

Actually, if you wander around the home instance there are Norn sleeping on cots and on the floor. But yeah, most Norn don't like living in Hoelbrak and won't be found there.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

I'll admit I'm not as deep into the norn areas as I've gone with other races, but my understanding is that most of them aren't tied to any given habitation? In GW1, at least, the settlements were only for norn who wanted to settle down and/or put their lives towards something other than hunting and battle, and I got the sense that the GW2 steadings are a continuation of that tradition, with the average norn's lifestyle alternating between dropping by the various steads for drinks and boasts, and just roughing it in the wilderness.

 

If that's the case, we wouldn't be able to model their population by comparing structures the way we can with the other races.

 

(That said, I _do_ think they'd come out on the low end, maybe even lower than the asura. I just don't think they'd be as low as the steadings indicate on their own.)

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Come to think of it, Asura would be hard to gauge the population of too. While not quite as individualistic as Norn they do tend to just kind of set up labs all over the place and that seems to be where they live too.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> Come to think of it, Asura would be hard to gauge the population of too. While not quite as individualistic as Norn they do tend to just kind of set up labs all over the place and that seems to be where they live too.

 

I don't think that's too difficult, as long as you account for each one representing less asura than a similarly sized structure would house for the other races. At the end of the day, the asura are likely to all sleep there- you don't have to worry about a substantial nomadic population that's architecturally invisible.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > Come to think of it, Asura would be hard to gauge the population of too. While not quite as individualistic as Norn they do tend to just kind of set up labs all over the place and that seems to be where they live too.

>

> I don't think that's too difficult, as long as you account for each one representing less asura than a similarly sized structure would house for the other races. At the end of the day, the asura are likely to all sleep there- you don't have to worry about a substantial nomadic population that's architecturally invisible.

 

Most labs aren't static though, we see many Asura using tents and other such means that can be easily moved, some have more fixed labs but plenty don't too.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> It's possible that the benefits of centralised military control and organisation that the charr could beat the norn despite being outnumbered, even if on a smaller scale the norn can win despite being significantly outnumbered. However, there's a point at which if your enemy is both stronger than you on an individual basis _and_ has a numerical advantage, it's difficult to believe that being better organised would make the difference. The norn might not be able to win in a battle between armies, but they might not have to - guerilla warfare from an enemy that outnumbers you and beats your soldiers one-on-one is difficult to counter. If the Movement of the World was so sure that just one legion could beat the norn, I think this strongly suggests that just one legion outnumbers the norn.

 

Superior logistics and chain of supplies play detrimental role in wars. Not to mention ability to properly deploy troops that are well trained and equipped. For example, recent war game sstimulations made by NATO suggest that Russia has advantage simply because NATO is less integrated and by the time to deploy anything of substance Russian army can advance beyond repair. Systemic and competent chain of command is far more important than people think.

 

Honestly I cant imagine what kind of guerilla warfere would Norn do since there is basically no infrastructure in "Norn lands" and charr can deploy via choppers everywhere they want. Charr are known to erect metal fortifications and its questionable how much experience Norn have in besieging those.

We know that norn can be killed by stabbing, shooting, magic etc... Fact that norn are stronger physically means little if they are assaulted by tanks and choppers. Fact that norn is stronger than a warband means little if steading can be leveled by bombing. The only advantage that I see that Norn have is Shiverpeak mountains which are hard to invade.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> The carrying capacity of the land also argues against a large norn population. They're supposed to get most of their nutrition from hunting - that should mean that a considerable amount more land is needed to support a single norn, even a human-sized one, than a human who gets most of their nutrition from grain farming, or even a charr or human getting most of their nutrition from herding animals. Norn being bigger aggravates that, and the Shiverpeaks likely being less fertile on the whole than Kryta or Ascalon likely exacerbates it further.

>

> Pretty much any way you look at it suggests that the norn have a smaller population than humans or charr.

 

Norn herd dolyaks which they use for food. Also, food system in GW isnt really comparable to real world because of existance of fantasy creatures that live in harsh environments and are used as nutrients by locals. For example, if I remember correctly Norn eat ice wurms.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > Come to think of it, Asura would be hard to gauge the population of too. While not quite as individualistic as Norn they do tend to just kind of set up labs all over the place and that seems to be where they live too.

> >

> > I don't think that's too difficult, as long as you account for each one representing less asura than a similarly sized structure would house for the other races. At the end of the day, the asura are likely to all sleep there- you don't have to worry about a substantial nomadic population that's architecturally invisible.

>

> Most labs aren't static though, we see many Asura using tents and other such means that can be easily moved, some have more fixed labs but plenty don't too.

 

That is true. I'd forgotten those, since they're mainly used by the asura operating outside of asuran territory, but there are a fair few such camps.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > It's possible that the benefits of centralised military control and organisation that the charr could beat the norn despite being outnumbered, even if on a smaller scale the norn can win despite being significantly outnumbered. However, there's a point at which if your enemy is both stronger than you on an individual basis _and_ has a numerical advantage, it's difficult to believe that being better organised would make the difference. The norn might not be able to win in a battle between armies, but they might not have to - guerilla warfare from an enemy that outnumbers you and beats your soldiers one-on-one is difficult to counter. If the Movement of the World was so sure that just one legion could beat the norn, I think this strongly suggests that just one legion outnumbers the norn.

>

> Superior logistics and chain of supplies play detrimental role in wars. Not to mention ability to properly deploy troops that are well trained and equipped. For example, recent war game sstimulations made by NATO suggest that Russia has advantage simply because NATO is less integrated and by the time to deploy anything of substance Russian army can advance beyond repair. Systemic and competent chain of command is far more important than people think.

>

> Honestly I cant imagine what kind of guerilla warfere would Norn do since there is basically no infrastructure in "Norn lands" and charr can deploy via choppers everywhere they want. Charr are known to erect metal fortifications and its questionable how much experience Norn have in besieging those.

> We know that norn can be killed by stabbing, shooting, magic etc... Fact that norn are stronger physically means little if they are assaulted by tanks and choppers. Fact that norn is stronger than a warband means little if steading can be leveled by bombing. The only advantage that I see that Norn have is Shiverpeak mountains which are hard to invade.

 

The observation that it would have only taken one legion to conquer the norn was referring to pre-GW1 days, before the charr were industrialised.

 

The lack of norn infrastructure is actually an advantage for the norn in a guerilla war. The norn have nothing that they _have_ to defend, which the charr can attack to force them to battle. Meanwhile, the charr have nothing that they can take in order to support themselves. This means that the charr invasion force would need to rely on supplies shipped in from their own territory or on sending out hunting parties - all of which would be vulnerable to being picked off by norn hunting parties hiding out in the mountains. Over time, the charr would be starved out, _unless_ they had a sufficiently large numerical advantage to be stronger than the norn _everywhere._

 

Even if we were assuming modern industrial charr... that just adds to their supply requirements in the form of fuel. Theoretically supply by charrcopter could work, but supplying a large force purely through air is _hard_ - the Berlin Airlift was impressive in part because most people thought it was impossible until the RAF did the numbers and figured out that it was only _just_ within the realms of possibility. And helicopters are going to be a lot less suitable for that sort of thing. Airships might work, but at that point you're getting into technology that is beyond what the charr alone have (I think there's an indication somewhere that it was contributions from other races that made charrcopters actually viable - airships are explicitly stated to be a collaboration).

 

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > The carrying capacity of the land also argues against a large norn population. They're supposed to get most of their nutrition from hunting - that should mean that a considerable amount more land is needed to support a single norn, even a human-sized one, than a human who gets most of their nutrition from grain farming, or even a charr or human getting most of their nutrition from herding animals. Norn being bigger aggravates that, and the Shiverpeaks likely being less fertile on the whole than Kryta or Ascalon likely exacerbates it further.

> >

> > Pretty much any way you look at it suggests that the norn have a smaller population than humans or charr.

>

> Norn herd dolyaks which they use for food. Also, food system in GW isnt really comparable to real world because of existance of fantasy creatures that live in harsh environments and are used as nutrients by locals. For example, if I remember correctly Norn eat ice wurms.

>

Ice wurms still need to eat something - such considerations are taken into account when looking at the carrying capacity of the land versus different means of gathering sustenance. It pretty much boils down to the fact that _ultimately_ your nutrition comes from plants, and the more steps you go through, the more plants there needed to be in the first place to sustain your nutrition. Eating ice worms means that you needed to have the animals that the ice worms ate, and _then_ you needed to have the plants that were eaten by the animals that the ice worms ate: each step you go through, it's roughly a factor of ten increase in the amount of vegetation you needed to have in the first place.

 

And the Shiverpeaks are less fertile than the lowlands.

 

Unless you're just going to wave your hands and say 'fantasy'... but even fantastical settings need to be internally consistent to be believable. Maybe it doesn't matter that the surface of the Shiverpeaks is relatively infertile because there's a lot of food growing in volcanic regions underground and/or there's a lot of magic underground for people to eat anyway. But we have no evidence of that, and really, when you think more about it... if it's such a paradise underground, why would creatures like wurms bother to come to the surface where norn hunting parties can catch them in the first place?

[kasoki.5180]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> The observation that it would have only taken one legion to conquer the norn was referring to pre-GW1 days, before the charr were industrialised.

>

> The lack of norn infrastructure is actually an advantage for the norn in a guerilla war. The norn have nothing that they _have_ to defend, which the charr can attack to force them to battle. Meanwhile, the charr have nothing that they can take in order to support themselves. This means that the charr invasion force would need to rely on supplies shipped in from their own territory or on sending out hunting parties - all of which would be vulnerable to being picked off by norn hunting parties hiding out in the mountains. Over time, the charr would be starved out, _unless_ they had a sufficiently large numerical advantage to be stronger than the norn _everywhere._

 

Guerilla warfare is usually centered around infrastructure. The fact that norn have none goes in favour of charr, as supply chain would be established by Charr in pathways that are potentially foregin to norn. But even more, proximity of Black Citadel to Hoelbrak makes supplying an easier

 

Again, Charr do not have to over rely on supplies coming from Ascalon beacuse Shiverpeaks seems to be rich in resources. There is actually right now a charr dolyak herder in Wayfarer Foothills.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

Over time, the charr would be starved out, _unless_ they had a sufficiently large numerical advantage to be stronger than the norn _everywhere._

>

 

You are ignoring the role of technology. With superior technology and ability to hold points you don't have to be anywhere. You have to be in key places. Warfere isn't about two big guys clashing it out on the road. Or about people fighting wherever. Its about controlling key strategic points.

 

I don't see how would Charr starve out. Especially since charr would be able to fairly easily create an unbroken supply chain from BC to their Forward posts because of proximity of BC to the region. And again, they would be able to supply themselves by resources from the region itself.

 

Charr have the superior ability to hold points. Shiverpeaks provides enough resources for Charr army. Black citadel is close to Holebrak which makes thing simpler for the charr and reduces chances of elaborate partisan warfare by the norn. Charr have superior ability to deploy army, superior ability to organise army, superior firepower and military technology, superior chain of command. Literally in every possible military aspect Charr have an advantage. Population needs not to be one of them.

 

There are countless example in the history where smaller nation defeated larger. I don't remember I have ever heard about a war that was decided by population numbers. I have heard by those that were determined by ability to continuously support the war effert, or providing a more professional army.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> Even if we were assuming modern industrial charr... that just adds to their supply requirements in the form of fuel. Theoretically supply by charrcopter could work, but supplying a large force purely through air is _hard_ - the Berlin Airlift was impressive in part because most people thought it was impossible until the RAF did the numbers and figured out that it was only _just_ within the realms of possibility. And helicopters are going to be a lot less suitable for that sort of thing. Airships might work, but at that point you're getting into technology that is beyond what the charr alone have (I think there's an indication somewhere that it was contributions from other races that made charrcopters actually viable - airships are explicitly stated to be a collaboration).

>

 

Airship are of Charr design initially. Other races have contributed to newer designs since Pact formed. But any hypothetical attack from charr on the norn would definitely not go by just one route of deployment but multiple.

 

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> Ice wurms still need to eat something - such considerations are taken into account when looking at the carrying capacity of the land versus different means of gathering sustenance. It pretty much boils down to the fact that _ultimately_ your nutrition comes from plants, and the more steps you go through, the more plants there needed to be in the first place to sustain your nutrition. Eating ice worms means that you needed to have the animals that the ice worms ate, and _then_ you needed to have the plants that were eaten by the animals that the ice worms ate: each step you go through, it's roughly a factor of ten increase in the amount of vegetation you needed to have in the first place.

>

> And the Shiverpeaks are less fertile than the lowlands.

>

> Unless you're just going to wave your hands and say 'fantasy'... but even fantastical settings need to be internally consistent to be believable. Maybe it doesn't matter that the surface of the Shiverpeaks is relatively infertile because there's a lot of food growing in volcanic regions underground and/or there's a lot of magic underground for people to eat anyway. But we have no evidence of that, and really, when you think more about it... if it's such a paradise underground, why would creatures like wurms bother to come to the surface where norn hunting parties can catch them in the first place?

 

I agree. But that's not how the game presents it. There is abundance of creatures and wildlife in Shiverpeaks. There is nothing in the game that would suggest that Shiverpeaks can't sustain its wildlife on the level of lets say Ascalon.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

 

> Airship are of Charr design initially. Other races have contributed to newer designs since Pact formed.

 

I'll keep my nose out of the particulars of guerilla warfare, but this bit is probably untrue. Whoever had the idea for airships originally (and circumstantial evidence points to humans, not charr), there's no evidence that anyone produced a working model before the Pact, and their's explicitly took tech from three different races to pull off. Even the copters might be Pact inventions- we don't see any in use before the Pact's campaign in Orr, and earlier in the story, [the charr's prototype couldn't even make it to the next hill over.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Collect_griffon_feathers_for_Kailani%27s_flying_machine)

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > The observation that it would have only taken one legion to conquer the norn was referring to pre-GW1 days, before the charr were industrialised.

> >

> > The lack of norn infrastructure is actually an advantage for the norn in a guerilla war. The norn have nothing that they _have_ to defend, which the charr can attack to force them to battle. Meanwhile, the charr have nothing that they can take in order to support themselves. This means that the charr invasion force would need to rely on supplies shipped in from their own territory or on sending out hunting parties - all of which would be vulnerable to being picked off by norn hunting parties hiding out in the mountains. Over time, the charr would be starved out, _unless_ they had a sufficiently large numerical advantage to be stronger than the norn _everywhere._

>

> Guerilla warfare is usually centered around infrastructure. The fact that norn have none goes in favour of charr, as supply chain would be established by Charr in pathways that are potentially foregin to norn. But even more, proximity of Black Citadel to Hoelbrak makes supplying an easier

 

Guerilla warfare doesn't need to be centered around anything at all.

 

It just needs to have something you can attack where the enemy is weak.

 

Supply lines, hunting parties, and other small groups are, if anything, _more_ vulnerable to guerilla attacks. Fixed infrastructure you can just put a garrison on. An attack on supply lines could happen anywhere along the line.

 

If you're outnumbered by people who can outfight your troops one on one, good luck putting enough guards on supply convoys without leaving yourself vulnerable somewhere else.

 

_More importantly,_ the current proximity from the Black Citadel to Hoelbrak is irrelevant. The source was talking about _before the Norn were forced south by Jormag._

>

> Again, Charr do not have to over rely on supplies coming from Ascalon beacuse Shiverpeaks seems to be rich in resources. There is actually right now a charr dolyak herder in Wayfarer Foothills.

 

You still need to gather those resources. That means sending out hunting parties, unless you're really going to try sending your entire armies to gather food.

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Over time, the charr would be starved out, _unless_ they had a sufficiently large numerical advantage to be stronger than the norn _everywhere._

> >

>

> You are ignoring the role of technology. With superior technology and ability to hold points you don't have to be anywhere. You have to be in key places. Warfere isn't about two big guys clashing it out on the road. Or about people fighting wherever. Its about controlling key strategic points.

 

First, technology is irrelevant, because YOU are ignoring that the source referred to pre-GW1 times, when charr didn't have that technology.

 

Second, go look up a history book. Partisan warfare in WW2, the Vietnam War, more recent asymmetric warfare. A guerilla force absolutely _can_ make itself a real pain in the rear even when the enemy has both numerical and technological superiority.

 

Now, imagine a guerilla force which outnumbers you AND which has a qualitative edge (since everything we've been told indicates that the average norn beats the average charr on an individual basis). Imagine how the Vietnam War would have gone if the Viet Cong outnumbered the forces of the US and all its allies and the average Viet Cong soldier took a hit from a 20mm cannon to bring down. That's pretty much the scenario you're trying to argue here.

>

> There are countless example in the history where smaller nation defeated larger. I don't remember I have ever heard about a war that was decided by population numbers. I have heard by those that were determined by ability to continuously support the war effert, or providing a more professional army.

 

I've heard of several. Every time somebody tried to invade Russia (as opposed to simply stalemate until Russia defeated itself through a revolution, as Germany did in WW1), for instance.

>

> Airship are of Charr design initially. Other races have contributed to newer designs since Pact formed. But any hypothetical attack from charr on the norn would definitely not go by just one route of deployment but multiple.

 

Trahearne: These airships are the Pact's crowning achievement: a combination of asura, charr, and human technology.

Trahearne: The Pact developed these airships so that we might fight Zhaitan from every possible angle: land, sea, and now air.

 

From the What the Eye Beholds story arc. Airships are a collaboration.

>

> I agree. But that's not how the game presents it. There is abundance of creatures and wildlife in Shiverpeaks. There is nothing in the game that would suggest that Shiverpeaks can't sustain its wildlife on the level of lets say Ascalon.

>

The conversion of the world of Tyria into a game has likely resulted in denser wildlife than is actually present, _particularly_ when it comes to carnivores.

 

As a comparison, in the Ghosts of Ascalon book, crossing the Fields of Ruin takes a day. It takes a lot less than an hour to cross that distance ingame. Distances get compressed, but interesting locations are retained and enough wildlife (particularly hostile wildlife) is retained to keep the zones interesting, but you can bet that what you see in game is not an exact representation of what's present in the lore.

[Loesh.4697]

Some interesting stuff that I just wanted to add on to Drax's post there. Back during the Vietnam war we actually had a group that was essentially dedicated to outfighting U.S troops on equal or numerically inferior terms called sappers, who contrary to their name were not combat engineers. It was a term taken by American G.I's from the French to essentially mean 'To Undermine' which is exactly what they did. The common view at the time was that the Cong were unskilled soldiers with machetes and pitchforks, and to an extent that's true but it was also a needed viewpoint to keep up morale. While they sometimes backfired, and backfired quite badly, whenever a sapper attack went off it was a devastating blow to the militaries confidence, especially because they felt they were superior and more technologically advanced. To have an enemy that could pop out from seemingly anywhere, who knew te ground terrain better then you, was willing to use every dirty trick in the book to kill you, and who could outfight you one on one or even one on two? Yeah.

 

Fighting the Norn on their hometurf for that reason would be an absolute nightmare.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Lucas.3718" said:

> But there i was asking myself, what does humans make special? Their Faith in the gods? Their versitile personality? what do you think ?

 

Their past and heritage. Every great (and terrible) work in Tyria's recent past was the doing of humans whereas the other races are just now coming into their own.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

/snip

 

1. Considering we are talking about current population projections, I don't see what does Arena nets talk about pre-GW2 hypothetical has to do with anytihng. Sure that's how it started but I never claimed to be talking about that period. I was under impression we are talking about current period, at least I was. So no, simply ignoring development of technology and military doesn't work. You are ignoring my argument completely.

 

2. Again, you are completely ignoring role of fortifications and point control. "Good luck sending people doing x while not getting vulnerable elsewhere" - Thats not how controlling an area works. Superior positioning and fortifications play much bigger role than sending more people to do the job.

 

3. As someone coming from a country that was formed by partisans, and where partisans are still discussed historical topic I can tell you partisan warfare wouldn't work in Norn lands. Partisan warfare is centered around abusing infrastructure and distruption of supply lines while your enemy isn't watching and is very much a modern thing. Partisan warfare isn't about attacking your enemy head on or attacking their strong forts. That's because partisans weren't actually an army but were mostly villagers and peasants who were ill equipped. Also, assassination and conversion of enemy, which were also partisan tactics most definitely arent applicable by norn

I already said why disruption of supply line would hardly work agains the charr, done by the Norn. Physically attacking an armored military vehicle or a tank will get you killed, no matter what race you are

 

4. "Still getting those resources" - You absolutely do not have to send hunting parties to get those resources. You need to make sure that the herders who are already there send their products to the forward post. Armies mostly do not collect their own daily resources. Now, how best to ensure that products come to the invasion posts can be open to interpretation and it is valid to assume it would be a weak point.

 

5. No invasion of Russia failed because of Russian large population. Historically, Russia is known to use old persian tactic of burned land. This is tactic that Persians used against Ottoman invasion and is essentially withdrawing inland while burning the croplands until your enemy retreats because their army is starved. As population withdraws inland, so do certain experts. Like doctors, or other people who could usually help the invading force.

Also, there are other factors why invading Russia is historically bad idea. Historically, poor state of russian infrastructure and roads actually go agianst industrialized invader, russian winter etc etc... Population is not one of them, never was. Germans absolutely mutilated Russians because well equipped soldier on a window, with a rifle has no problem with 5 men with no weapon.

 

6. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Airship "The original airship prototypes were of charr design, but with the formation of the Pact..."

 

[draxynnic.3719]

1. It's indicative of the relative populations _at the time._ Unless the norn have had a massive population explosion since, or the charr have had a massive population crash since, it's likely that the ratios are roughly the same.

 

2. I'm not ignoring it.

 

You seem to be working on the assumption that it is possible for an industrialised army to control everywhere at once without dividing itself. History has shown, time and again, that this simple isn't possible. Primitive artillery can only fire so far, and if the charr have Taimi's communicator device, they haven't shown it. And as you seem to somehow think is a disadvantage against an occupying force: the norn have very little infrastructure. The charr have few pre-built strongpoints they can set up garrisons at, and even if they do set up such sites, a garrison only exercises control over the region within sight of the garrison unless you send out patrols. If you do send out patrols, those patrols can be ambushed. If you're fighting a guerilla enemy who both outnumbers you and whose soldiers are stronger than yours on an individual basis... you might be able to control the regions within sight of your garrisons, but try to go much further than that and you're going to be bled white.

 

3. You're right, partisan warfare is a bad example. Partisans are typically poorly equipped civilians putting up what resistance they can. The norn are a culture focused around hunting large monsters where even if a given norn is caught unarmed (highly unlikely given their culture of self-reliance) they can turn into some form of wereanimal and fight that way, and which are generally spoken of as being stronger than a charr in a one on one basis.

 

Guerilla warfare of all kinds is based on attacking the enemy's weak spots. Supply lines are targets.

 

When it comes to tanks: we seen ingame that things like dredge and charr tanks are actually fairly fragile. A hunting party of norn in an ambush would be able to take on a charrtank or two.

 

4. Yes, it's a weak point.

 

Herding requires allowing the herd animals to spread out so they can graze. Supplying people via herding, in fact, requires more land than supplying the same number of people through farming crops (the general rule of thumb here is about a factor of ten), so protecting enough livestock to feed the army without needing to be supplied from home would require maintaining control over significantly more territory than regular farming would, and _that_ is something that has historically proved difficult enough in hostile territory whether in modern warfare or medieval warfare. You'd be less vulnerable growing your food in your own territory and shipping it in.

 

5. Population of Russia isn't the only factor, but it is _a_ factor.

 

The other factors you list... pretty much also apply to the Shiverpeaks. The Shiverpeaks aren't as big as Russia, but have plenty of nooks and crannies for guerilla fighters to hide in, and norn culture is such that virtually _every_ norn has the skills required to disappear into the wilderness and become a guerilla fighter. The Shiverpeaks also have poor infrastructure - as you've observed yourself - and roads, and many of the bridges and the like that we do see are often blown up by Sons of Svanir, pirates, and other groups. For Russian winter... I think we can safely say that winter in the _Shiver_peaks is not going to be pleasant either, and the norn are much more accustomed to the climate than the charr.

 

When it comes to the 'five Russians with no weapon' thing... that would never happen with the norn. One thing to keep in mind is that the culture of both norn and charr expect every adult to be capable of fighting. Among the charr, it's because the charr train everyone as soldiers, even if individual warbands might be assigned to noncombat tasks. Among the norn, every norn is expected to be a self-sufficient hunter. You're never going to get five unarmed and desperate norn rushing a window - you're going to have five norn that are used to hunting large beasts, have weapons suitable to hunt large beasts with, and have the ability to turn into a giant bear-man and rampage in a pinch.

 

Because of this, the military strength of the charr and norn are directly proportional to their populations in a manner that the military strength of humans and other races are not, because every additional charr and norn is likely another fighter. There are other factors involved, but one of those factors is "the majority of norn are the type of person who goes out hunting large carnivores for food and prestige... and, oh, they can turn into large carnivores themselves."

 

6. _Citation needed._

 

The wiki is _riddled_ with people having posted their own speculation as fact, and the admins don't care. Konig tried to clean it up years ago, but when he got into a fight with one of the culprits, the admins just responded by banhammering both of them.

 

Never trust the wiki unless citations are given. I gave an ingame citation saying that airships were the creation of multiple races, and as far as I can recall - and I've been in the lore community for a while - there is nothing to indicate that the charr made the first prototypes on their own.

[Genesis.8572]

My dad could beat up your dad.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

 

> 6. _Citation needed._

>

> The wiki is _riddled_ with people having posted their own speculation as fact, and the admins don't care. Konig tried to clean it up years ago, but when he got into a fight with one of the culprits, the admins just responded by banhammering both of them.

>

> Never trust the wiki unless citations are given. I gave an ingame citation saying that airships were the creation of multiple races, and as far as I can recall - and I've been in the lore community for a while - there is nothing to indicate that the charr made the first prototypes on their own.

 

While I agree- both on the general grounds of not trusting the wiki, on on the specific grounds of never having seen anything that indicates the charr built functioning airships- it looks like in this case, Konig was the one who introduced the line to the article (9/16/'12). Maybe it's worth checking with him to see if he remembers his source?

 

[Castigator.3470]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> While I agree- both on the general grounds of not trusting the wiki, on on the specific grounds of never having seen anything that indicates the charr built functioning airships- it looks like in this case, Konig was the one who introduced the line to the article (9/16/'12). Maybe it's worth checking with him to see if he remembers his source?

>

Well, the wiki isn't half bad on general things like dialogue, or even skill coefficients. As for the lore itself, the original sources, while preferable, suffer from being either very generalizing, or specific to one event. Unfortunately, filling unsourced fluff can get dangerous very quickly, so I guess a wiki cleanup project would be a worthwhile, nay a virtuous pursuit!

But there is something else. We need more sources!

We could need more texts, and that is more primary sources, like novels, short stories, ingame dialogue, but even ingame books would be very helpful towards increasing the accuracy of our beloved wiki. (Anet Please!)

"Make the wiki great again! Make quoting the wiki safe again!"

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

>

> > 6. _Citation needed._

> >

> > The wiki is _riddled_ with people having posted their own speculation as fact, and the admins don't care. Konig tried to clean it up years ago, but when he got into a fight with one of the culprits, the admins just responded by banhammering both of them.

> >

> > Never trust the wiki unless citations are given. I gave an ingame citation saying that airships were the creation of multiple races, and as far as I can recall - and I've been in the lore community for a while - there is nothing to indicate that the charr made the first prototypes on their own.

>

> While I agree- both on the general grounds of not trusting the wiki, on on the specific grounds of never having seen anything that indicates the charr built functioning airships- it looks like in this case, Konig was the one who introduced the line to the article (9/16/'12). Maybe it's worth checking with him to see if he remembers his source?

 

Took digging since it's been so long, but my original policy regarding reference tagging has been what I was told when the tags got added, which was "only tag if it's not in-game".

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Skyfire

 

This guy calls airships the latest in "charr technology". He may or may not be fibbing (and unabashedly biased), though, looking at the dialogue this time around.

 

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > While I agree- both on the general grounds of not trusting the wiki, on on the specific grounds of never having seen anything that indicates the charr built functioning airships- it looks like in this case, Konig was the one who introduced the line to the article (9/16/'12). Maybe it's worth checking with him to see if he remembers his source?

> >

> Well, the wiki isn't half bad on general things like dialogue, or even skill coefficients. As for the lore itself, the original sources, while preferable, suffer from being either very generalizing, or specific to one event. Unfortunately, filling unsourced fluff can get dangerous very quickly, so I guess a wiki cleanup project would be a worthwhile, nay a virtuous pursuit!

> But there is something else. We need more sources!

> We could need more texts, and that is more primary sources, like novels, short stories, ingame dialogue, but even ingame books would be very helpful towards increasing the accuracy of our beloved wiki. (Anet Please!)

> "Make the wiki great again! Make quoting the wiki safe again!"

 

Current policy for lore articles is to reference all the thing, or direct link in the sentence if plausible. Kossage and I have been fleshing out references but when people suddenly go "I want citation for in-game stuff too!" after 6+ years of documenting without such, it's hard to backtrack! Not to mention that [oh dear lord](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint#References), [referencing can get lengthy as hell](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon#References).

 

Dialogue has always been verbatim, and we always tagged citations for out-of-game/novel stuff.