Remove LF From Nearby Deaths

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system.

> >

> > That's kind of the point. Once LF is reliable and controllable, a complete rework becomes possible.

> >

> >

>

> Well, no, a complete rework is totally possible without touching LF gain from death. Like I said, LF gain from death only really impact WvW and act as a scalling defense mechanic there for core and reaper while it act as an endless fuel for scourge.

>

> And again, you won't have an increase of LF gen throught weaponskill because it would most likely break balance in sPvP. LF gain from death is a minor change that can't be made without a revamp of the necromancer's defensive tools. I know it's stupid but the change that you propose just can't be made before a full defensive rework, only alongside or after.

 

LF affects PvE too because having adds is a big dps boost in raids for Scourge because you can use your shroud on CD instead of just pressing F5. There is a very noticeable difference between a fight like SH where they are constant adds to fuel your LF compared to say Cairn where is just the boss. I am all for reliable and controllable LF gains but I do think there should be a little bit of LF from death just for thematic reasons.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system.

> >

> > That's kind of the point. Once LF is reliable and controllable, a complete rework becomes possible.

> >

> >

>

> Well, no, a complete rework is totally possible without touching LF gain from death. Like I said, LF gain from death only really impact WvW and act as a scalling defense mechanic there for core and reaper while it act as an endless fuel for scourge.

>

> And again, you won't have an increase of LF gen throught weaponskill because it would most likely break balance in sPvP. LF gain from death is a minor change that can't be made without a revamp of the necromancer's defensive tools. I know it's stupid but the change that you propose just can't be made before a full defensive rework, only alongside or after.

 

It's intended to happen at the same time. I'd rather see Shroud and it's HP soak/resource management mechanic maintained, rather then make Necro a mirror of every other class. The point of the LF change is to be part of an overall shroud/LF rework to make it effective in todays game. That's what I mean by calling this a gateway change - it's a necessary first step that makes the rest of the also necessary changes possible.

 

The issue as others have pointed out is scaling - Shroud worked great once, but with the power creep the game has had, it doesn't anymore. When a single class can burst 60 or 100k having a second health bar does nothing - in that environment, damage negation (blocks or evades or invuln) is king. Of course you can't add these things to Shroud because shroud is also sustain. Combining damage negation and sustain could very quickly get out of hand. That's the point of the LF change. It makes it easier for devs to control Shroud uptime, and permits adding scalable defenses. Those could be added to shroud (for example, returning the function it had at release of absorbing any-size single hit and not carrrying leftover damage to health) or could be added to other skills (like block or evades). Regardless, the sustain granted by shroud must be predictable or it will not be possible to tune it.

[Obtena.7952]

Is balancing LF regen a problem though? Put another way ... I think my more significant problem with Shroud is the ICD (on Core and Reaper), not really the core regen rate. It's almost impossible to find a necro build that doesn't have sufficient LF regen, so I'm not sure why the passive from deaths is holding us back in performance.

 

There has to be SOME amount of base LF regen not associated with weapons or traits, only because that COULD put Anet in a problem with balancing LF regen.

 

What I would propose instead is that there is a way for a player to choose (within some restrictions perhaps) what fraction of LF is regen from deaths vs. other sources, even a passive regen option as a minimum baseline amount.

[derd.6413]

since alot of ppl don't want it because it would mess with necro's defensive capabilities, what changes would ppl like to see?

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> since alot of ppl don't want it because it would mess with necro's defensive capabilities, what changes would ppl like to see?

 

A good question. Here's some idea's kicking around in my head. I'm sure not all of them are good, but whatever. Discuss.

 

-Damage in shroud that depletes LF to 0 no longer carries over to health (aka release functionality) (could also be a trait, like Foot in The Grave, which needs a buff anyway)

-Core shroud no longer degenerates over time

-LF slowly moves up or down towards 50% while out of combat.

-Overhaul of Core shroud skills, emphasizing defense and CC. (IMO: 1 should merge with Plague Blast, 2 should break immob and be ground targeted, 5 should pulse cripple)

-LF gain removed or reduced from offensive skills and utilities

-LF gain added or increased to defensive skills and utilities

-Slow steady LF gain from normal weapon rotations.

-Burst/On demand LF gain from defense oriented skills and utilities

-Scaling defenses added to Scourge and Reaper utility skills; eg, Aegis on "Nothing Can Save You" and/or 100% damage transfer to minions on "Rise!"

-Scourge LF costs rebalanced separately as needed to compensate

 

Overall Core shroud should for soaking damage and Reaper shroud should be for burst damage (and thus loses shroud uptime in exchange). Since Necro has so many DPS utilities, limiting burst LF gain onto defensive or "utility" utilities prevents a single build from having huge sustain and huge damage at the same time. Defense becomes about thoughtful resource management and not just timing your evades like every other class.

 

Basically I want to see Core Necro return to it's original concept, but viable in the modern game. Reaper should remain as the twitch/burst spec for those that don't like the old school attrition gameplay.

 

I suppose most of this doesn't technically require ambient LF gain to be removed, but it makes it a lot more predictable and that would only make it easier to tune these extra defenses. The big one that would be affected is shroud degeneration - it would be dumb to remove degeneration without also removing incidental LF gain. You could essentially heal by standing still, which is OP.

[googel.3278]

wow, there are many issues with other specs, especially with the massive invulns and stealth tactics. someone got killed by a necro and started this thread to put more nerfs on it? read some of the dumbest things in this topic.

[Axl.8924]

The sad thing is, that necromancers, or rather reaper will probably be nerfed again, and we will be back to being helpless free kills, because a few noobs couldn't learn how to counter them.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> LF affects PvE too because having adds is a big dps boost in raids for Scourge because you can use your shroud on CD instead of just pressing F5. There is a very noticeable difference between a fight like SH where they are constant adds to fuel your LF compared to say Cairn where is just the boss. I am all for reliable and controllable LF gains but I do think there should be a little bit of LF from death just for thematic reasons.

 

Well, the main reason one have to ask about LF on death removed is solely the scourge because this peculiar e-spec benefit a lot more from such thing than core and reaper whose LF use is gated behind a hard cool down and controlled by a permanent degen.

 

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> It's intended to happen at the same time. I'd rather see Shroud and it's HP soak/resource management mechanic maintained, rather then make Necro a mirror of every other class. The point of the LF change is to be part of an overall shroud/LF rework to make it effective in todays game. That's what I mean by calling this a gateway change - it's a necessary first step that makes the rest of the also necessary changes possible.

>

 

You won't have "buff" to shroud because there is no LF on death. Removing LF on death is not a gateway or a necessary first step for change. The profession defense is balanced around the regular LF sustain without LF gain from death. This is a "defense" balance made around the idea of small scale fight. The LF gain on death exist as a kind of oil for the necromancer defense engine in large scale battle. You remove the oil, the engine burn.

 

> The issue as others have pointed out is scaling - Shroud worked great once, but with the power creep the game has had, it doesn't anymore. When a single class can burst 60 or 100k having a second health bar does nothing - in that environment, damage negation (blocks or evades or invuln) is king. Of course you can't add these things to Shroud because shroud is also sustain. Combining damage negation and sustain could very quickly get out of hand. That's the point of the LF change. It makes it easier for devs to control Shroud uptime, and permits adding scalable defenses. Those could be added to shroud (for example, returning the function it had at release of absorbing any-size single hit and not carrrying leftover damage to health) or could be added to other skills (like block or evades).

 

Nope, shroud didn't work great, it never did. It did have a short time where it felt great when used in conjonction with a lot of traits that thus became mandatory but that's all.

 

> Regardless, the sustain granted by shroud must be predictable or it will not be possible to tune it.

 

That's the thing, core and reaper's sustain is already predictable and tuned because it's already gated behind a cool down and a permanent degen. Beside, without LF on death, you also lose the ability to refill your defensive mechanism without engaging directly in a fight. It migth seem trivial but it's a tremendous nerf.

 

LF on death isn't something that give a huge advantage to shroud specs, in their case it's a balanced sustain, it only really give an advantage to scourge atm. Like I said, I don't mind scourge, it's a badly designed spec that try to do everything and have been nerfed to underperform in everything, except WvW, already. However shroud specs need this LF on death for large scale fights and need to have their LF gain checked in small scale fight which mean that you can't compensate the loss of LF gain on death by a more flat LF gain.

 

You could say that a reform of the necromancer's defensive system **is** the gateway to remove LF gain on death leading to a more predictible LF sustain and keeping in check e-specs that don't rely on a cool down gated shroud as their main defensive mean. You need to make LF on death obsolete for the shroud specs before removing it.

 

> @"derd.6413" said:

> since alot of ppl don't want it because it would mess with necro's defensive capabilities, what changes would ppl like to see?

 

A reform of necromancer's defensive system at his core. It's certainly a colossal work to do but, as long as shroud "2nd life bar" exist, the current LF gains are required. I wouldn't expect the reform to remove the idea of soaking damage throught HP because it's what make the identity of the necromancer but I wouldn't tied this defense solely to the shroud and especially not to a 2nd LF bar.

 

What I'd do personnally (my current thoughts):

- Change the way traditionnal shroud work by removing the 2nd life bar and allowing utilities while in shroud.

- Introduce an aura specific to the necromancer, let's call it death aura, that grant barrier when hit (ICD 1s).

- Rework death magic around death aura and barrier. (first minor grant barrier on entering shroud, 2nd minor allow necromancer to gain death aura for 4 second when leaping in a dark field, grant a leap finisher on exiting shroud and 3rd minor reduce incoming damage and condition damage taken when under the effect of barrier.) Unholy sanctuary could increase death aura barrier gain when hit instead of throwing you into shroud.

- Change spectral armor to something like: Grant barrier and death aura (3 seconds). Breakstun. 2 charges with a 25 second CD.

- Change focus#4 to: Reaper's aura: Apply vulnerability to foes around you and gain death aura for 4 seconds. Additionnal skill: Reaper's touch: condense your death aura into a ray of dark light that damage your foe and apply vulnerability on it with each hit.

- Soul reaping: Last gasp changed to make death aura grant LF when you are stuck (ICD 1s).

- DS: Shroud#4 now grant barrier instead of LF.

- Reaper: Traited shouts grant barrier instead of stealing life.

 

And then at that moment there is no longer a need for unlimited amount of LF gain via death and I'd go with a system close to GW1's where LF gain on death are limited to 3 gain every 10 seconds.

 

After that, they can even create a few offensive traits based on "auras" creating synergy with elementalist and tempest and they can also limit scourge barrier output by focusing on death aura share instead of flat barrier output. (Death aura share intended to reduce a lot the need for scourge stacking).

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > since alot of ppl don't want it because it would mess with necro's defensive capabilities, what changes would ppl like to see?

>

> A reform of necromancer's defensive system at his core. It's certainly a colossal work to do but, as long as shroud "2nd life bar" exist, the current LF gains are required. I wouldn't expect the reform to remove the idea of soaking damage throught HP because it's what make the identity of the necromancer but I wouldn't tied this defense solely to the shroud and especially not to a 2nd LF bar.

>

> What I'd do personnally (my current thoughts):

> - Change the way traditionnal shroud work by removing the 2nd life bar and allowing utilities while in shroud.

> - Introduce an aura specific to the necromancer, let's call it death aura, that grant barrier when hit (ICD 1s).

> - Rework death magic around death aura and barrier. (first minor grant barrier on entering shroud, 2nd minor allow necromancer to gain death aura for 4 second when leaping in a dark field, grant a leap finisher on exiting shroud and 3rd minor reduce incoming damage and condition damage taken when under the effect of barrier.) Unholy sanctuary could increase death aura barrier gain when hit instead of throwing you into shroud.

> - Change spectral armor to something like: Grant barrier and death aura (3 seconds). Breakstun. 2 charges with a 25 second CD.

> - Change focus#4 to: Reaper's aura: Apply vulnerability to foes around you and gain death aura for 4 seconds. Additionnal skill: Reaper's touch: condense your death aura into a ray of dark light that damage your foe and apply vulnerability on it with each hit.

> - Soul reaping: Last gasp changed to make death aura grant LF when you are stuck (ICD 1s).

> - DS: Shroud#4 now grant barrier instead of LF.

> - Reaper: Traited shouts grant barrier instead of stealing life.

>

> And then at that moment there is no longer a need for unlimited amount of LF gain via death and I'd go with a system close to GW1's where LF gain on death are limited to 3 gain every 10 seconds.

>

> After that, they can even create a few offensive traits based on "auras" creating synergy with elementalist and tempest and they can also limit scourge barrier output by focusing on death aura share instead of flat barrier output. (Death aura share intended to reduce a lot the need for scourge stacking).

 

i don't know if giving barrier to core and reaper is a good idea given how much barrier is part of te scourge's identity. but a dark aura might work.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"derd.6413" said:

>

> i don't know if giving barrier to core and reaper is a good idea given how much barrier is part of te scourge's identity. but a dark aura might work.

 

Barrier is also part of scrapper and elementalist/weaver, I don't think we can really say that it's really part of the scourge's identity.

[googel.3278]

even if there is lf gained from nearby death, there is always a cooldown for the said spec. so during fights I dont know what to argue about, take a look at other specs speciality, necro has been severly punished throughout these patches.

 

 

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> >

> > i don't know if giving barrier to core and reaper is a good idea given how much barrier is part of te scourge's identity. but a dark aura might work.

>

> Barrier is also part of scrapper and elementalist/weaver, I don't think we can really say that it's really part of the scourge's identity.

 

scrapper and ele have mostly personal barrier with little support barrier. while with you're suggestion i'm assuming death magic get's reworked around barrier and dark aura which would give necro 2 specs centered around barrier. plus barier and shades are the only major new additions to necro provided by scourge.

 

i'm also convinced that with a bit of brain storming something better can be found.

 

if you'll let me spit ball:

 

dark aura could aply weakness or fear when struck.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > >

> > > i don't know if giving barrier to core and reaper is a good idea given how much barrier is part of te scourge's identity. but a dark aura might work.

> >

> > Barrier is also part of scrapper and elementalist/weaver, I don't think we can really say that it's really part of the scourge's identity.

>

> scrapper and ele have mostly personal barrier with little support barrier. while with you're suggestion i'm assuming death magic get's reworked around barrier and dark aura which would give necro 2 specs centered around barrier. plus barier and shades are the only major new additions to necro provided by scourge.

>

 

The idea behind the scourge and barrier was to give this e-spec the ability to share the shroud defense. Nothing in what I suggest change that, excpet that there is no longer a shroud defense but a firmly ingrained selfish barrier defense in core.

 

> i'm also convinced that with a bit of brain storming something better can be found.

>

> if you'll let me spit ball:

>

> dark aura could aply weakness or fear when struck.

 

I'd put fear out of the picture, way to dangerous to proc. Otherwise I totally agree with you that death aura or dark aura or even spectral aura (whatever name people will prefer) can easily be made to apply more than barrier, that's why I said:

 

> After that, they can even create a few offensive traits based on "auras"

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > >

> > > > i don't know if giving barrier to core and reaper is a good idea given how much barrier is part of te scourge's identity. but a dark aura might work.

> > >

> > > Barrier is also part of scrapper and elementalist/weaver, I don't think we can really say that it's really part of the scourge's identity.

> >

> > scrapper and ele have mostly personal barrier with little support barrier. while with you're suggestion i'm assuming death magic get's reworked around barrier and dark aura which would give necro 2 specs centered around barrier. plus barier and shades are the only major new additions to necro provided by scourge.

> >

>

> The idea behind the scourge and barrier was to give this e-spec the ability to share the shroud defense. Nothing in what I suggest change that, excpet that there is no longer a shroud defense but a firmly ingrained selfish barrier defense in core.

>

> > i'm also convinced that with a bit of brain storming something better can be found.

> >

> > if you'll let me spit ball:

> >

> > dark aura could aply weakness or fear when struck.

>

> I'd put fear out of the picture, way to dangerous to proc. Otherwise I totally agree with you that death aura or dark aura or even spectral aura (whatever name people will prefer) can easily be made to apply more than barrier, that's why I said:

>

> > After that, they can even create a few offensive traits based on "auras"

 

i meant dark aura applies weakness baseline and maybe make the barrier a trait because i very much doubt that: anet is gonna make dark aura necro exclusive but they'll defenitly let necro apply dark aura to allies (which will also means barrier) and maybe even add it as a combo finisher (baseline, not traited). i'm fine with adding barrier to core but i'm worried that what you've suggested is going overboard with the barrier aplicatioin.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> i meant dark aura applies weakness baseline and maybe make the barrier a trait because i very much doubt that: anet is gonna make dark aura necro exclusive but they'll defenitly let necro apply dark aura to allies (which will also means barrier) and maybe even add it as a combo finisher (baseline, not traited). i'm fine with adding barrier to core but i'm worried that what you've suggested is going overboard with the barrier aplicatioin.

 

Ah, I didn't counted weakness as baseline part of the dark aura kit for a simple reason: weakness is already part of the light aura kit.

 

As for making it a baseline combo finisher effect, that would be welcome. However, despite having seen a dev comment on the fact that he would like to spend some time to look at combos, I must admit that my hopes aren't high that they would do such thing.

 

Last but not least, I don't suggest to add barrier to the core, I suggest to replace the defensive aspect of the shroud by some barrier. Honnestly, I'm even scared that what I suggest is not enough to cover the loss of the 2nd life bar, it would probably end up with a better survivability against low sustain damage but a crappy survivability against burst damage (which isn't something odd for the necromancer but would suck as much as losing LF on death in the current context).

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > i meant dark aura applies weakness baseline and maybe make the barrier a trait because i very much doubt that: anet is gonna make dark aura necro exclusive but they'll defenitly let necro apply dark aura to allies (which will also means barrier) and maybe even add it as a combo finisher (baseline, not traited). i'm fine with adding barrier to core but i'm worried that what you've suggested is going overboard with the barrier aplicatioin.

>

> Ah, I didn't counted weakness as baseline part of the dark aura kit for a simple reason: weakness is already part of the light aura kit.

 

i think you've got some stuff confused here. the only weakness from combo's are blast/leap + poison, not light. and besides dark fields have blinds, just like smoke fields (tho they use diffrent finnishers) so it's not like it'd be anything new

 

> As for making it a baseline combo finisher effect, that would be welcome. However, despite having seen a dev comment on the fact that he would like to spend some time to look at combos, I must admit that my hopes aren't high that they would do such thing.

 

it's just as unlikely they'll change necro's defenses

 

> Last but not least, I don't suggest to add barrier to the core, I suggest to replace the defensive aspect of the shroud by some barrier. Honnestly, I'm even scared that what I suggest is not enough to cover the loss of the 2nd life bar, it would probably end up with a better survivability against low sustain damage but a crappy survivability against burst damage (which isn't something odd for the necromancer but would suck as much as losing LF on death in the current context).

 

you add barrier at the cost of defensive functionality of shroud. besides we're reworking his defensive capabilities so if you've got a concern, now is the time to adress it

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > i meant dark aura applies weakness baseline and maybe make the barrier a trait because i very much doubt that: anet is gonna make dark aura necro exclusive but they'll defenitly let necro apply dark aura to allies (which will also means barrier) and maybe even add it as a combo finisher (baseline, not traited). i'm fine with adding barrier to core but i'm worried that what you've suggested is going overboard with the barrier aplicatioin.

> >

> > Ah, I didn't counted weakness as baseline part of the dark aura kit for a simple reason: weakness is already part of the light aura kit.

>

> i think you've got some stuff confused here. the only weakness from combo's are blast/leap + poison, not light. and besides dark fields have blinds, just like smoke fields (tho they use diffrent finnishers) so it's not like it'd be anything new

>

 

You're right, it seem like I confused vuln and weakness on light aura and that even the vulnerability have been removed in favor of a condi damage reduction...

 

> > As for making it a baseline combo finisher effect, that would be welcome. However, despite having seen a dev comment on the fact that he would like to spend some time to look at combos, I must admit that my hopes aren't high that they would do such thing.

>

> it's just as unlikely they'll change necro's defenses

>

 

True, true.

 

> > Last but not least, I don't suggest to add barrier to the core, I suggest to replace the defensive aspect of the shroud by some barrier. Honnestly, I'm even scared that what I suggest is not enough to cover the loss of the 2nd life bar, it would probably end up with a better survivability against low sustain damage but a crappy survivability against burst damage (which isn't something odd for the necromancer but would suck as much as losing LF on death in the current context).

>

> you add barrier at the cost of defensive functionality of shroud. besides we're reworking his defensive capabilities so if you've got a concern, now is the time to adress it

>

 

It's difficult to be sure of everything when we talk about theory, what we know is that somehow scourge survivability isn't that bad so, what I suggest shouldn't put the necromancer into a precarious position in most of the game. However, with such a defensive system, without trying it before, you can't help but have a lingering fear abouut whether it's enough to mitigate burst damage or not. (Without even taking into account that it could be an intended weakness in order to allow other professions some room to counter the necromancer)

 

All in all, death aura is meant to be a reactive damage mitigation effect that you can heavily increase through DM traits. The few skills that directly grant barrier (spectral armor, DS#4 and reaper's shouts when they are traited) are here to allow the possibility to have some on demand defense in dire moment. Well, I concede that reaper's shout could grant death aura instead of barrier or even stay as they currently are with the vampiric effect, but there is really a need of an instant defense (spectral armor) and DS#4 is meant to be defensive and pumping life force wouldn't serve such purpose on a necromancer without the 2nd life bar.

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > i meant dark aura applies weakness baseline and maybe make the barrier a trait because i very much doubt that: anet is gonna make dark aura necro exclusive but they'll defenitly let necro apply dark aura to allies (which will also means barrier) and maybe even add it as a combo finisher (baseline, not traited). i'm fine with adding barrier to core but i'm worried that what you've suggested is going overboard with the barrier aplicatioin.

> > >

> > > Ah, I didn't counted weakness as baseline part of the dark aura kit for a simple reason: weakness is already part of the light aura kit.

> >

> > i think you've got some stuff confused here. the only weakness from combo's are blast/leap + poison, not light. and besides dark fields have blinds, just like smoke fields (tho they use diffrent finnishers) so it's not like it'd be anything new

> >

>

> You're right, it seem like I confused vuln and weakness on light aura and that even the vulnerability have been removed in favor of a condi damage reduction...

>

> > > As for making it a baseline combo finisher effect, that would be welcome. However, despite having seen a dev comment on the fact that he would like to spend some time to look at combos, I must admit that my hopes aren't high that they would do such thing.

> >

> > it's just as unlikely they'll change necro's defenses

> >

>

> True, true.

>

> > > Last but not least, I don't suggest to add barrier to the core, I suggest to replace the defensive aspect of the shroud by some barrier. Honnestly, I'm even scared that what I suggest is not enough to cover the loss of the 2nd life bar, it would probably end up with a better survivability against low sustain damage but a crappy survivability against burst damage (which isn't something odd for the necromancer but would suck as much as losing LF on death in the current context).

> >

> > you add barrier at the cost of defensive functionality of shroud. besides we're reworking his defensive capabilities so if you've got a concern, now is the time to adress it

> >

>

> It's difficult to be sure of everything when we talk about theory, what we know is that somehow scourge survivability isn't that bad so, what I suggest shouldn't put the necromancer into a precarious position in most of the game. However, with such a defensive system, without trying it before, you can't help but have a lingering fear abouut whether it's enough to mitigate burst damage or not. (Without even taking into account that it could be an intended weakness in order to allow other professions some room to counter the necromancer)

>

> All in all, death aura is meant to be a reactive damage mitigation effect that you can heavily increase through DM traits. The few skills that directly grant barrier (spectral armor, DS#4 and reaper's shouts when they are traited) are here to allow the possibility to have some on demand defense in dire moment. Well, I concede that reaper's shout could grant death aura instead of barrier or even stay as they currently are with the vampiric effect, but there is really a need of an instant defense (spectral armor) and DS#4 is meant to be defensive and pumping life force wouldn't serve such purpose on a necromancer without the 2nd life bar.

 

second life bar doesn't have to completly disapaer, could make it so damage is split 50/50 or something

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system.

> >

> > That's kind of the point. Once LF is reliable and controllable, a complete rework becomes possible.

> >

> >

>

> Well, no, a complete rework is totally possible without touching LF gain from death. Like I said, LF gain from death only really impact WvW and act as a scalling defense mechanic there for core and reaper while it act as an endless fuel for scourge.

>

> And again, you won't have an increase of LF gen throught weaponskill because it would most likely break balance in sPvP. LF gain from death is a minor change that can't be made without a revamp of the necromancer's defensive tools. I know it's stupid but the change that you propose just can't be made before a full defensive rework, only alongside or after.

 

^ This pretty much

 

Its why people meme about Soul comp in death magic.

 

Its not really useful in most areas of the game cause life force from deaths dont really matter. In some or many instances you will be fighting and nothing will really ever die around you to give you bonus life force or if things do die you might not be fighting which is not really all that useful either.

 

If they removed it ideally most necros wouldnt notice except those who run around zerging in wvw.

 

[Kam.4092]

Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping

 

They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever.

 

This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains.

 

If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though.

 

This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

 

Tl;dr

Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change.

 

This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

[derd.6413]

> @"Kam.4092" said:

> Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping

>

> They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever.

>

> This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains.

>

> If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though.

>

> This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

>

> Tl;dr

> Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change.

>

> This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

 

it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is?

 

also mechanics > themeing

[Kam.4092]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping

> >

> > They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever.

> >

> > This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains.

> >

> > If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though.

> >

> > This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

> >

> > Tl;dr

> > Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change.

> >

> > This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

>

> it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is?

>

> also mechanics > themeing

 

I just think they are using Life Force as an excuse now. The extra health bar is not that big compared to other classes and their defensive traits/abilities. As a Guardian I can live just as easy through mechanics as "squishy" Dragonhunter and Condition Firebrand. The excuse of the second health bar is getting old, especially when others have more defense capabilities. The extra health bar is just the go to thing when people rage about wanting to nerf Necromancer. If you stun, kite, or burst down a Power Reaper it's pretty weak by itself. Power Reaper is a noob killer, just like old Dragonhunter used to be in PvP.

 

The only bad part is that our extra health bar is also tied to our DPS. Increasing Life Force gain with weapons and in Shroud for PvE would be great. In PvP and WvW Life Force is fine, especially with the Scepter Trait change.

 

I just think it's an old excuse now simply.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Kam.4092" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > > Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping

> > >

> > > They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever.

> > >

> > > This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains.

> > >

> > > If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though.

> > >

> > > This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

> > >

> > > Tl;dr

> > > Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change.

> > >

> > > This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

> >

> > it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is?

> >

> > also mechanics > themeing

>

> I just think they are using Life Force as an excuse now. The extra health bar is not that big compared to other classes and their defensive traits/abilities. As a Guardian I can live just as easy through mechanics as "squishy" Dragonhunter and Condition Firebrand. The excuse of the second health bar is getting old, especially when others have more defense capabilities. The extra health bar is just the go to thing when people rage about wanting to nerf Necromancer. If you stun, kite, or burst down a Power Reaper it's pretty weak by itself. Power Reaper is a noob killer, just like old Dragonhunter used to be in PvP.

>

> The only bad part is that our extra health bar is also tied to our DPS. Increasing Life Force gain with weapons and in Shroud for PvE would be great. In PvP and WvW Life Force is fine, especially with the Scepter Trait change.

>

> I just think it's an old excuse now simply.

 

No offense, but I never seen Anet use the source of LF from deaths as an excuse to not balance the class, nor any hint that LF from deaths was the reason it performance is bad in any game mode. While I think Necro has issues with how Core Shroud and RS work, I can't see how rethinking LF from deaths addresses any of it.

 

If LF is preventing the class to move forward with fixes, it's more likely the kinds of parameters that determine regen/depletion rates, overall LF size, etc .... not the sources. There is SOME merit to how much LF is regened from deaths in the various game modes, but I think the impact is minor anyways because as we know, going into shroud in PVP/WvW is rather underwhelming in the first place.

 

@"derd.6413" Do not be so dismissive of Anet's fixation on theme ... Maintaining or enhancing theme is the primary reason for many changes on classes in this game; if you notice, balance as we equate to performance isn't exactly high on their list. If you don't believe that, just click my sig and learn for yourself.

[derd.6413]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > > > Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping

> > > >

> > > > They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever.

> > > >

> > > > This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains.

> > > >

> > > > If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though.

> > > >

> > > > This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

> > > >

> > > > Tl;dr

> > > > Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change.

> > > >

> > > > This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time.

> > >

> > > it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is?

> > >

> > > also mechanics > themeing

> >

> > I just think they are using Life Force as an excuse now. The extra health bar is not that big compared to other classes and their defensive traits/abilities. As a Guardian I can live just as easy through mechanics as "squishy" Dragonhunter and Condition Firebrand. The excuse of the second health bar is getting old, especially when others have more defense capabilities. The extra health bar is just the go to thing when people rage about wanting to nerf Necromancer. If you stun, kite, or burst down a Power Reaper it's pretty weak by itself. Power Reaper is a noob killer, just like old Dragonhunter used to be in PvP.

> >

> > The only bad part is that our extra health bar is also tied to our DPS. Increasing Life Force gain with weapons and in Shroud for PvE would be great. In PvP and WvW Life Force is fine, especially with the Scepter Trait change.

> >

> > I just think it's an old excuse now simply.

>

> @"derd.6413" Do not be so dismissive of Anet's fixation on theme ... Maintaining or enhancing theme is the primary reason for many changes on classes in this game; if you notice, balance as we equate to performance isn't exactly high on their list. If you don't believe that, just click my sig and learn for yourself.

 

"nerfing" LF generation from nearby deaths to a on kill effect isn't killing the theme, it's reducing the effectiveness of a mechanic that's thematically important, and anet has done it before when such mechanics became a problem (like with malice on DE).

note that i don't agree with OP that it's something that needs to change, but i also disagree that theming is one of the reasons it shouldn't be done.

[killfil.3472]

Removing LF from death's does seem like a good start.