Downed state - Nerf it ?

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"displayname.8315" said:

> Small scale you should stealth and warp your downs to safety, or illusion of life them, invuln and res with traited or mercy. Even if taking on larger groups it can work both ways.

>

> Game is very gank oriented and snipey, downstate works ok both ways.

 

Thing is that in fights vs several people you Need to use all the skills and utils available on your bar.It happens that the utils you want for safestomping are on cd because youre fighting vs 3x more people and thus there is no way for safestomping in many scenarios.Downed state does NOT work Ok both ways,hence this thread.Ive suggested it multiple time sinsce 2012.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > Again,this is about SMALL SCALE/ROAMING ONLY. Leave blobbing and 15 - 20+ raiding out of this because it is no issue in those fights.Everything anet has done since 2012 is promoting blob play.Its time to give the hand full of people that still bother to roam a helping hand aswell,and the issue layed out is one of the most frustrating aspects of roaming where you face more than your side has nad ppl keep getting ressed like that without you able to do a thing agaisnt it besides downing them fully 4x.

> > >

> > >

> > I think that's hard to do though.

> >

> > Downstate affects all aspects of WvW play. Zergs, guild raids, havoc groups, solo roamers.

> >

> > So it's impossible to separate the groups. Not without, as an earlier poster noted significantly increasing the server load.

> >

> > And I do understand you are no asking in this thread for downstate to be removed.

> >

> > I think most would agree to some nerf in downstate. I've seen a few suggestions:

> > - decreasing downstate health

> > - Increasing the downstate penalty to decrease how many times you can go down without breaking combat

> > - Decreasing rezzing effectiveness

> > - Etc

> >

> > I think the biggest challenge would be finding a mechanism that didn't significantly impact PvE as unfortunately we play by a similar rule

> > Set.

> >

> > I know we don't really care how it impacts PvE, but any significant change would cause them to blow up. And given the numbers they have......

> >

>

> The decrease in res speed,the less hp in downed state,the less ways of getting downed in one minute.How would this even hurt raiding or blob play ? this will only shine in small scale stuff anyway.It would even give those 15+ "skilled" raiders a chance vs something bigger again aswell.

 

I do know downed state fits in pve,but in wvw ? Not how it currently works.

 

 

Somehow im quoting myself now..Was meant for Strider.

 

We have 152 replies and over 2k views in a few days,( Thats more than most threads in this forum section ) i think people care enough for Anet to make a move.I think Anet also knows the issue, otherwise what was the point of no downed state event ? .

 

It seemed like a test to me.I know downed state has its place in wvw,but i do expect a heavy nerf to it somehow,open your eyes anet.I even invite you to run with me some nights when i roam ( Without your anet tags ) so you can see the issues described !

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > Again,this is about SMALL SCALE/ROAMING ONLY. Leave blobbing and 15 - 20+ raiding out of this because it is no issue in those fights.Everything anet has done since 2012 is promoting blob play.Its time to give the hand full of people that still bother to roam a helping hand aswell,and the issue layed out is one of the most frustrating aspects of roaming where you face more than your side has nad ppl keep getting ressed like that without you able to do a thing agaisnt it besides downing them fully 4x.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > I think that's hard to do though.

> > >

> > > Downstate affects all aspects of WvW play. Zergs, guild raids, havoc groups, solo roamers.

> > >

> > > So it's impossible to separate the groups. Not without, as an earlier poster noted significantly increasing the server load.

> > >

> > > And I do understand you are no asking in this thread for downstate to be removed.

> > >

> > > I think most would agree to some nerf in downstate. I've seen a few suggestions:

> > > - decreasing downstate health

> > > - Increasing the downstate penalty to decrease how many times you can go down without breaking combat

> > > - Decreasing rezzing effectiveness

> > > - Etc

> > >

> > > I think the biggest challenge would be finding a mechanism that didn't significantly impact PvE as unfortunately we play by a similar rule

> > > Set.

> > >

> > > I know we don't really care how it impacts PvE, but any significant change would cause them to blow up. And given the numbers they have......

> > >

> >

> > The decrease in res speed,the less hp in downed state,the less ways of getting downed in one minute.How would this even hurt raiding or blob play ? this will only shine in small scale stuff anyway.It would even give those 15+ "skilled" raiders a chance vs something bigger again aswell.

>

> I do know downed state fits in pve,but in wvw ? Not how it currently works.

>

>

> Somehow im quoting myself now..Was meant for Strider.

>

> We have 152 replies and over 2k views in a few days,( Thats more than most threads in this forum section ) i think people care enough for Anet to make a move.I think Anet also knows the issue, otherwise what was the point of no downed state event ? .

>

> It seemed like a test to me.I know downed state has its place in wvw,but i do expect a heavy nerf to it somehow,open your eyes anet.I even invite you to run with me some nights when i roam ( Without your anet tags ) so you can see the issues described !

 

I understood you were responding to me.

 

I don't disagree that the three things I noted wouldn't break PvE, and I am not original enough to have come up with them.

 

But some of the other ideas, that some others have noted (and not all of them) might be very poorly received over there. That's all I meant.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > > Again,this is about SMALL SCALE/ROAMING ONLY. Leave blobbing and 15 - 20+ raiding out of this because it is no issue in those fights.Everything anet has done since 2012 is promoting blob play.Its time to give the hand full of people that still bother to roam a helping hand aswell,and the issue layed out is one of the most frustrating aspects of roaming where you face more than your side has nad ppl keep getting ressed like that without you able to do a thing agaisnt it besides downing them fully 4x.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > I think that's hard to do though.

> > > >

> > > > Downstate affects all aspects of WvW play. Zergs, guild raids, havoc groups, solo roamers.

> > > >

> > > > So it's impossible to separate the groups. Not without, as an earlier poster noted significantly increasing the server load.

> > > >

> > > > And I do understand you are no asking in this thread for downstate to be removed.

> > > >

> > > > I think most would agree to some nerf in downstate. I've seen a few suggestions:

> > > > - decreasing downstate health

> > > > - Increasing the downstate penalty to decrease how many times you can go down without breaking combat

> > > > - Decreasing rezzing effectiveness

> > > > - Etc

> > > >

> > > > I think the biggest challenge would be finding a mechanism that didn't significantly impact PvE as unfortunately we play by a similar rule

> > > > Set.

> > > >

> > > > I know we don't really care how it impacts PvE, but any significant change would cause them to blow up. And given the numbers they have......

> > > >

> > >

> > > The decrease in res speed,the less hp in downed state,the less ways of getting downed in one minute.How would this even hurt raiding or blob play ? this will only shine in small scale stuff anyway.It would even give those 15+ "skilled" raiders a chance vs something bigger again aswell.

> >

> > I do know downed state fits in pve,but in wvw ? Not how it currently works.

> >

> >

> > Somehow im quoting myself now..Was meant for Strider.

> >

> > We have 152 replies and over 2k views in a few days,( Thats more than most threads in this forum section ) i think people care enough for Anet to make a move.I think Anet also knows the issue, otherwise what was the point of no downed state event ? .

> >

> > It seemed like a test to me.I know downed state has its place in wvw,but i do expect a heavy nerf to it somehow,open your eyes anet.I even invite you to run with me some nights when i roam ( Without your anet tags ) so you can see the issues described !

>

> I understood you were responding to me.

>

> I don't disagree that the three things I noted wouldn't break PvE, and I am not original enough to have come up with them.

>

> But some of the other ideas, that some others have noted (and not all of them) might be very poorly received over there. That's all I meant.

 

Thing is ,i know im greatly outmanned when making a suggestion like this.Blobbers make up about,what 90% of wvw ? Roamers might be 10% i actually think its less.Doesnt mean we should be forgotten.

[displayname.8315]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"displayname.8315" said:

> > Small scale you should stealth and warp your downs to safety, or illusion of life them, invuln and res with traited or mercy. Even if taking on larger groups it can work both ways.

> >

> > Game is very gank oriented and snipey, downstate works ok both ways.

>

> Thing is that in fights vs several people you Need to use all the skills and utils available on your bar.It happens that the utils you want for safestomping are on cd because youre fighting vs 3x more people and thus there is no way for safestomping in many scenarios.Downed state does NOT work Ok both ways,hence this thread.Ive suggested it multiple time sinsce 2012.

 

If your talking 3x more so 15v45 you shouldn't expect to just mow them down then for sure. Yeah you would have to be falling back more, bring a good gank and expect all your guildies to have some escape if hard focused.

 

A skilled guild could do it, if your talking pugmanding or something then nah.

[Ferus.3165]

nerf it so it takes the same time to rez somebody as it does underwater!

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> nerf it so it takes the same time to rez somebody as it does underwater!

 

Rangers or other classes? Cause if rangers, you just buffed downstate to immortality.

[santenal.1054]

Troll ressing is annoying and cheesy. It should be dealt with.

> @"Caedmon.6798"

In the previous week I saw 2 deadeyes and I think a mirage (for drawing attention and stomping?) kill players (most of which just left the spawn trying to get to the commander like most WVW players do I assume) near north camp (desert borderland/Aurora Glade). The Mithril Deadeye had a similar name as you, were you that guy? Troll ressing is cheesy but that is far from the only cheesy thing in WVW (that could use some tweaking).

[Dajas.4715]

Sure it's already been said but I'm to lazy to read all comments...leave down state but give all classes 0 skills to use whilst downed, maybe even double the the time it takes to rev to make it that bit more risk vs reward when reving.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"santenal.1054" said:

> Troll ressing is annoying and cheesy. It should be dealt with.

> > @"Caedmon.6798"

> In the previous week I saw 2 deadeyes and I think a mirage (for drawing attention and stomping?) kill players (most of which just left the spawn trying to get to the commander like most WVW players do I assume) near north camp (desert borderland/Aurora Glade). The Mithril Deadeye had a similar name as you, were you that guy? Troll ressing is cheesy but that is far from the only cheesy thing in WVW (that could use some tweaking).

 

Asuran mirage ? Than prob yes.And i know it goes both ways,i dont only view things from my own perspective thats why i also dont ask for the complete removal of downed state.I know thief stealth res is stupid aswell and it falls under the same category.

[kmfart.7480]

I also noticed that 2vs5 have a high change of being unsuccessfull these days (prolly due to the number of healing/support builds players run). You can generate downs repeatedly, but you will never kill them before they get up again (and healed to full in a few seconds). If I see 2-5 enemy players in a camp, I just run to the next camp, no point trying anymore, as combat mode doesnt actually yield participation either. Its a total waste of time.

 

[Exalted Quality.8534]

All that needs to be done to downstate is removing the invuln on down. This would make cleaving down targets far more affective and balance the stupidity of how strong reviving is. No worse feeling than winning than winning a 1v3 in WvW and then having some random blood necro enter the fray and start reviving everything.

[Victory.2879]

> @"kmfart.7480" said:

> I also noticed that 2vs5 have a high change of being unsuccessfull these days (prolly due to the number of healing/support builds players run). You can generate downs repeatedly, but you will never kill them before they get up again (and healed to full in a few seconds). If I see 2-5 enemy players in a camp, I just run to the next camp, no point trying anymore, as combat mode doesnt actually yield participation either. Its a total waste of time.

>

 

I read this as 'you can instanta gib players repeatedly using cheesy builds', but you can't kill them off because you're waiting on all your insta-gib spike set up to come off cool down. 'It's not fair that people run healing/support builds or have worked out how to get players up'.

 

Maybe it's just that people have got more used to insta-gib cheese builds and now both build better and react better to it?

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"kmfart.7480" said:

> I also noticed that 2vs5 have a high change of being unsuccessfull these days (prolly due to the number of healing/support builds players run). You can generate downs repeatedly, but you will never kill them before they get up again (and healed to full in a few seconds). If I see 2-5 enemy players in a camp, I just run to the next camp, no point trying anymore, as combat mode doesnt actually yield participation either. Its a total waste of time.

>

Considering healing/support builds are worthless on their own or in small scale equal scenarios that means... teamwork wins?

 

Hm.

 

How odd to that people see that as a flaw in a multiplayer game.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"kmfart.7480" said:

> > I also noticed that 2vs5 have a high change of being unsuccessfull these days (prolly due to the number of healing/support builds players run). You can generate downs repeatedly, but you will never kill them before they get up again (and healed to full in a few seconds). If I see 2-5 enemy players in a camp, I just run to the next camp, no point trying anymore, as combat mode doesnt actually yield participation either. Its a total waste of time.

> >

> Considering healing/support builds are worthless on their own or in small scale equal scenarios that means... teamwork wins?

>

> Hm.

>

> How odd to that people see that as a flaw in a multiplayer game.

 

Obviously people shouldn't be prepared.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> > @"kmfart.7480" said:

> > I also noticed that 2vs5 have a high change of being unsuccessfull these days (prolly due to the number of healing/support builds players run). You can generate downs repeatedly, but you will never kill them before they get up again (and healed to full in a few seconds). If I see 2-5 enemy players in a camp, I just run to the next camp, no point trying anymore, as combat mode doesnt actually yield participation either. Its a total waste of time.

> >

>

> I read this as 'you can instanta gib players repeatedly using cheesy builds', but you can't kill them off because you're waiting on all your insta-gib spike set up to come off cool down. 'It's not fair that people run healing/support builds or have worked out how to get players up'.

>

> Maybe it's just that people have got more used to insta-gib cheese builds and now both build better and react better to it?

 

Slot mercy runes press F

Beastly combo, years to master

[atheria.2837]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> Are you EVER going to take a serious look at downed state and how much it carries ? I can't count the times i'm fighting 2vs 5+ where downed state is carrying so hard because ressing is faster than finishing for some reason,and cleaving isn't enough either alot of the times.And the ridiculous 4x downed in one minute,get rid of it.All that downed state does is making people rely on others to back them up in a fight where they went down 3x and still because of that stupid mechanic able to win a fight they should have lost.Downed state is for casuals and it only shines when you outman the other side.Do something about this ridiculous carrying mechanic already.By reducing the res speed and making it so people can go down once but the 2nd time theyre dead.

 

Reviving is faster than stomping.

 

Down state is ridiculously OP or reviving is stupidly slow.

 

Reviving isn't even done much on some servers, because it's too slow - and people die just trying to get others up now instead of being *able* to mass revive.

 

What changed?

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > i like downed state. It's fair because you also have a downstate, everyone has a downstate. I'm not gonna lie, it can be annoying. But most of the time it's exciting trying to stop the enemy from ressing. I find that it adds to the action, intensity, and desperation of trying to survive.

>

> Its far from being fair because it only favors the side with more people,hence the post.When you fight more people it can be nearly impossible to finish off people and having to rely on downing them 4x to fully finish them off.When i go down myself i know i lost,i dont even wanna be ressed and should be dead.But i assume most people playing wvw rely on this mechanic anyways,very exciting gameplay,indeed.

 

Im having a hard time following you. Are you saying its supposed to be easy when you are out numbered? I mean... I dont know you... Maybe in real life you could win against five people armed with big pointy sticks and no skill with just your bare fist.

 

 

But it is extremely rare to win a fight where you are that badly out numbered unless the gap in skill is just that massive.

[Nate.3927]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Nate.3927" said:

> > As for winning outnumbered fights, people need to accept that if in a 2v5 you can down them but not secure kills, then yes on an individual level you are probably more skilled than all 5 players on the other side, but as a group, your collective ability and teamwork does not exceed theirs. This game mode is about more than just individual skill, teamwork is also a thing.

> I get your point, but:

>

> they did not win because of good teamwork, but because of a mechanic that favors the bigger group. If they would have had good teamwork they would have killed us without any one of them going down as they had a healer (who failed at healing 8 times) and did greatly outnumber us.

>

> Playing well should feel rewarding. That's a game design basic. If it doesn't, then a lot of people will leave the game and play something else.

>

> ...maybe one of the reasons why GW2 PvP/WvW has a low population.

>

>

 

I realize my response is two weeks late, mainly because I don't go to these forums often, but your quote conveniently ignores the rest of my post, which was:

 

> People do realize there is a thing called a downstate penalty right? Focus fire the same enemy and down them multiple times in a row and they will go insta-dead. Then you can start focus firing the rest. If you choose to switch targets each time they rez someone, that's just bad decision making on your side and is the main reason why your side lost.

 

If you managed to get 8 downs, had you focused those on just 2 people, after 3-4 downs, they go insta dead. So you would've gotten two kills and bring the fight to a 2v3 at which point you can probably kill the remaining three easily. You made a bad decision in trying to spread your damage too much. Learn from it and make a different decision next time. I have seen good players whittle down enemy numbers in a 3v10 until it reached the point where they killed 7-8 with the rest running away. Sometimes I'm a neutral third party observer watching people from the other two servers fight, sometimes I'm on the receiving end (the bigger player group that eventually all died or ran). I'm personally not good enough to win fights like that unless the opponents happen to be really really bad, but I've seen plenty good players do it. Good players sees failure as a hurdle to overcome, not something to complain about and ask for things to be made easier.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Nate.3927" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > @"Nate.3927" said:

> > > As for winning outnumbered fights, people need to accept that if in a 2v5 you can down them but not secure kills, then yes on an individual level you are probably more skilled than all 5 players on the other side, but as a group, your collective ability and teamwork does not exceed theirs. This game mode is about more than just individual skill, teamwork is also a thing.

> > I get your point, but:

> >

> > they did not win because of good teamwork, but because of a mechanic that favors the bigger group. If they would have had good teamwork they would have killed us without any one of them going down as they had a healer (who failed at healing 8 times) and did greatly outnumber us.

> >

> > Playing well should feel rewarding. That's a game design basic. If it doesn't, then a lot of people will leave the game and play something else.

> >

> > ...maybe one of the reasons why GW2 PvP/WvW has a low population.

> >

> >

>

> I realize my response is two weeks late, mainly because I don't go to these forums often, but your quote conveniently ignores the rest of my post, which was:

>

> > People do realize there is a thing called a downstate penalty right? Focus fire the same enemy and down them multiple times in a row and they will go insta-dead. Then you can start focus firing the rest. If you choose to switch targets each time they rez someone, that's just bad decision making on your side and is the main reason why your side lost.

>

> If you managed to get 8 downs, had you focused those on just 2 people, after 3-4 downs, they go insta dead. So you would've gotten two kills and bring the fight to a 2v3 at which point you can probably kill the remaining three easily. You made a bad decision in trying to spread your damage too much. Learn from it and make a different decision next time. I have seen good players whittle down enemy numbers in a 3v10 until it reached the point where they killed 7-8 with the rest running away. Sometimes I'm a neutral third party observer watching people from the other two servers fight, sometimes I'm on the receiving end (the bigger player group that eventually all died or ran). I'm personally not good enough to win fights like that unless the opponents happen to be really really bad, but I've seen plenty good players do it. Good players sees failure as a hurdle to overcome, not something to complain about and ask for things to be made easier.

 

Im playing since 2012.Shall i present you with my entire history of all the fights ive had ? Where did i ever say im never winning these fights ? Its the obnoxious fact that these resbots and downed state ruin something what could have been a great fight.After Pof it just got worse,not just Fb's but everybody seems to be ressing way too fast,also dont forget about having to actually move in to your target thats been downed where people from his side right Next to him can insta press F .I already switched class months ago to make it for easier safestomping.People do not win as described because of being better,but because of this carrying mechanic.

 

Im not even perplexed to see many people defending this mechanic because so many rely on it and rely on running with more people ( or calling for more people ) than the other side has,which in this case is usually 2 - 4 people ( when talking about roamers ) .Where often enough they call out 10 or so just for those few because its not happening with even numbers,which is all fine.It just doesnt make sense to me why going down 4x in one minute is still a thing and why people can still rally of npc's and even destroyed siege and why ressing has to be so fast.

 

Good players dont ask for 10 more people to kill 2 -3 guys and then still having to rely on downed state either.

[BlueMelody.6398]

The only changes downed state needs, in order, are 1) remove rallying entirely and force self-ressing or teammate-ressing; 2) remove invuln upon going down and instead institute a brief invuln upon ressing so that you don't go down instantly again to accumulated condis.

 

Otherwise, leave it alone.