I don't even care about new raid wing if the balance's still terrible

[Opopanax.1803]

Like you patronized about not explaining basics of alacrity and quickness, I'll let you ponder how giving every class in the game the same boonspam as chrono is powercreep in all game modes.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> Like you patronized about not explaining basics of alacrity and quickness, I'll let you ponder how giving every class in the game the same boonspam as chrono is powercreep in all game modes.

 

Boons like alacrity and quickness on their own are of little use, they need classes which can utilize those boons. Having no damage on a quickness and alacrity support with no one to make use of those is about as useful as going 1 hour late to the TD meta.

 

Oh yes, open world would be affected by this, on no, open world content might get even easier.

 

Good job on side stepping answering though.

 

EDIT: and just to not be misunderstood, I said give 1-2 classes in their support role quickness and alacrity (while reducing the classes damage drastically), let's not put words in my mouth now.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

> >

> > Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

> >

> > Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

>

> Maybe you are so blinded that you can't see how many roles chrono covers, how many boons it provides, and how many dps critical boo nd it provides that no other profession can touch.

>

> But go ahead and keep telling yourself that it is "math" !o!! One of the best ones I've read in this thread. A really good laugh, thanks!

 

This is why I criticize you for not doing your math. If we look at firebrand, quickness upkeep takes its dps down to 28k. Renegade can upkeep alacrity by taking its dps down to 23k (see note below). If we take a baselines for the dps role as 35k (which admittedly is fuzzy), then we can see that quickness should cost 7k and alacrity 12k. Which means that a class that can do both boons should be around 15k maybe 17k, now there are chrono builds that hit 16k with both boons (dueling builds) and not much else, but those builds are reliant on the other chrono's shield 5 + time warp from what I understand; so I would argue dueling builds are pretty balanced. Much of this discussion seems to be focused on chaos chrono (which hits 10k dps). So, is it fair to give up another 6k to get the boons of chaos trait line + the 50 second cd emergency aegis of insp?

 

Tough to say, there isn't really much to compare it to. Maybe chaos chrono is OP and should have boons removed or dps lowered. But your discussion is never nuanced like that. You keep saying that chrono gives way more boons than the other booners, but you can't even be bothered to mention which chrono build you mean.

 

videos if you want to fact check my numbers:

Chaos chrono 10K:

(youtube.com/watch?v=q_tIm_huB94)

 

duel illu: 16k

(youtube.com/watch?v=kqgUdSs8W7E)

 

quickness firebrand: 28k

(youtube.com/watch?v=NfVm_XAjBTw)

 

alacrity renegade (not a healer, just a renegade that gives perm alacrity, power and condi builds similar): 26k

(youtube.com/watch?v=AdMmqmEYpko)

(youtube.com/watch?v=SGpZu2exus8) note this isn't perm alacrity, but it is close. Its the best video resource I have at the time being.

It may be accurate to lower the dps of the renegade a few k to achieve truly permanent alacrity uptime by swapping in more boon duration. I don't have time nor skill to test everything myself unfortunately, so I estimated 23k.

 

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> snip for overview sake

 

If we assume that permanent alacrity and quickness can be exchanged for around 8-10k dps, that would give us a good assumption of where classes should be balance wise.

 

Let's assume a baseline of 30-35k dps, now subtract 8k for providing permanent quickness. That leaves us at 20-25k dps, very similar to where Firebrand is right now.

Let's assume the same math for alacrity just use 10k and it brings us close to where Renegade is at dps wise.

Let's use both numbers for chrono thus subtracting around 18k (power chrono is at around 32k without providing massive boon support) and we end close to where support chrono is damage wise, less when specced into chaos.

 

Why 8-10k? Well first those are the base numbers we have right now, and give or take that is the amount by which a classes dps can be lowered with these boons to still provide a net benefit to the group by enhancing other classes. I'm pretty sure Arenanet has internal figures for every boon and utility to make balancing easier (or at least I hope they do). It also suggests that we should never see alacrity/quickness providing classes with over xx amounts of dps (currently 25-30k) in order to not power creep the group damage output.

 

It makes for an interesting theory that if classes are redesigned with boon support in mind, while at the same time lowering their damage output, they could remain balanced for the pve endgame. Now this is just table top math with not factoring for a lot of other variables like further utility, rotation difficulty etc. but it does make the basic idea more plausible that pure support classes can work in this game.

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Nope, simply responding in kind to your assumption every body but you is an idiot.

>

> Getting personal also does not make you look smarter.

 

I'll leave it at this: You are the one in this thread trying to argue that chrono simply needs to be duplicated to other professions to solve the problem. You are the one shutting down differing points of view that would affect your Chrono. You are the one who HAS said "rest assured, I've thought about this a lot" ; only you have the answer, as you have pointed out many times.

 

No, you are the one telling everyone else to stop thinking and that anyone that disagrees with you is an "idiot", to quote you.

 

Truth is, it is telling that you are so quick to talk over everyone and to always have the last word. "I think she doeth protest too much!"

 

My only hope is that Anet solves this without your input. I have no desire to see the Chrono problem solved by simply making classes do the same thing as chrono; this is how WoW ended up with homogenized classes. Better to nerf the outlier than make multiple other classes do the same stuff as Chrono.

 

Carry on!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Nope, simply responding in kind to your assumption every body but you is an idiot.

> >

> > Getting personal also does not make you look smarter.

>

> I'll leave it at this: You are the one in this thread trying to argue that chrono simply needs to be duplicated to other professions to solve the problem. You are the one shutting down differing points of view that would affect your Chrono. You are the one who HAS said "rest assured, I've thought about this a lot" ; only you have the answer, as you have pointed out many times.

>

> No, you are the one telling everyone else to stop thinking and that anyone that disagrees with you is an "idiot", to quote you.

>

> Truth is, it is telling that you are so quick to talk over everyone and to always have the last word. "I think she doeth protest too much!"

>

> My only hope is that Anet solves this without your input. I have no desire to see the Chrono problem solved by simply making classes do the same thing as chrono; this is how WoW ended up with homogenized classes. Better to nerf the outlier than make multiple other classes do the same stuff as Chrono.

>

> Carry on!

 

Okay, short question, was this you in this thread?:

 

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> Chrono needs to be nerfed, regardless of what the chrono mains argue here.

 

and this:

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> Naw, one class that can provide all bones should be nerfed, period.

>

> Hey don't be offended. If there was a class that could do all of chronos boons +1, I'd ask for a nerf of that class as well.

>

> You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

 

You are telling me I am stubborn and unreasonable when you came waltzing in with a pre set opinion, decided to be smarter than everyone else, ignore other arguments and becoming personal.

 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Here is a train of thought for you: **there is multiple ways to achieve balance on this subject**. If you want to disprove or counter argue my ideas go ahead. So far all you have contributed to this discussion is arrogance and personal attacks and nothing more (and I was not the only target of those by the way).

 

EDIT: and while at it, please quote me where I said someone disagreeing is an idiot? Please do. I did mention that some very basic balance theories need not be explained since they are self evident but please enlighten me where I was wrong. You can be unknowable about the game no matter if you agree or disagree with me, making bogus claims though ignoring basic knowledge will have me call you out on it.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> If we assume that permanent alacrity and quickness can be exchanged for around 8-10k dps, that would give us a good assumption of where classes should be balance wise.

>

> Let's assume a baseline of 30-35k dps, now subtract 8k for providing permanent quickness. That leaves us at 20-25k dps, very similar to where Firebrand is right now.

> Let's assume the same math for alacrity just use 10k and it brings us close to where Renegade is at dps wise.

> Let's use both numbers for chrono thus subtracting around 18k (power chrono is at around 32k without providing massive boon support) and we end close to where support chrono is damage wise, less when specced into chaos.

>

> Why 8-10k? Well first those are the base numbers we have right now, and give or take that is the amount by which a classes dps can be lowered with these boons to still provide a net benefit to the group by enhancing other classes. I'm pretty sure Arenanet has internal figures for every boon and utility to make balancing easier (or at least I hope they do). It also suggests that we should never see alacrity/quickness providing classes with over xx amounts of dps (currently 25-30k) in order to not power creep the group damage output.

>

> It makes for an interesting theory that if classes are redesigned with boon support in mind, while at the same time lowering their damage output, they could remain balanced for the pve endgame. Now this is just table top math with not factoring for a lot of other variables like further utility, rotation difficulty etc. but it does make the basic idea more plausible that pure support classes can work in this game.

 

Chrono (or rather mesmer) is just the only class that has the range of tunability the trait system should aim for, mesmer can tune itself from basically a 0k top-tier booner with some healing to a top tier dps with no boon output, and many things in between. It all comes down to the fact that Anet has clearly worked hard to make mesmer trait lines work together in many different impactful ways.

 

Conversely, the 'not loved' classes like necromancer frequently find themselves with very little inter-trait interactions. Brazil once joked that the condi greatsword reaper build was 3 builds at once a few years ago. But he wasn't wrong, greatsword was suppose to be a power weapon, and reaper a power spec. I mean really think about this, a power elite spec ran as a condi build was necro's max dps build because of bolt combo finishers being the only way to generate chill for a very long time. You never see something that ridiculous on mesmer.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> So Cyninja, you (and supposedly "most") are saying all classes need to have an equal amount of boonshare and tanking capabilities? Really?

>

> So your suggestion is that we now have 9 professions that look like chrono?

>

> I hope you realize just how silly that suggestion is.

 

Let's tone down the sensationalism ... there isn't even ONE profession that looks like chrono. THAT'S part of the problem.

 

 

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

 

Balance is worse than it's ever been. The game can't be "balanced" around a game mode that so few people participate in compared to others. Raids in effect have destroyed the balance across the rest of the game modes. Best thing Anet can do is remove raids completely so the game can achieve some semblance of balance again.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

>

> Balance is worse than it's ever been. The game can't be "balanced" around a game mode that so few people participate in compared to others.

 

That's a bold statement to make. Not sure all that many people play spvp or wvw over raids or fractals to be honest.

 

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Raids in effect have destroyed the balance across the rest of the game modes. Best thing Anet can do is remove raids completely so the game can achieve some semblance of balance again.

 

The main issue spvp and wvw face is power creep which has drastically affected those game modes (and 2 elite specializations per class which is insanely hard to balance for competitive game modes). I do wonder if a global damage reduction and healing reduction for spvp could some what fix the issue. Damage reduction as to make fights less spiky, healing reduction as to not push the game mode back in to an unbeatable bunker meta.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

>

> Balance is worse than it's ever been. The game can't be "balanced" around a game mode that so few people participate in compared to others. Raids in effect have destroyed the balance across the rest of the game modes. Best thing Anet can do is remove raids completely so the game can achieve some semblance of balance again.

 

Plain wrong. Yes, raids are only a tiny fraction compared to open world PvE (maybe 10%), but that's not due to balance. Even then, why would "chrono so op" matter at all in terms of balance? It's so good it deters others from playing the mode? Makes no sense. There are so many viable classes and builds for every single class, raids are more accessible for a wide variety of styles than ever before. You can't deny that

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > So Cyninja, you (and supposedly "most") are saying all classes need to have an equal amount of boonshare and tanking capabilities? Really?

> >

> > So your suggestion is that we now have 9 professions that look like chrono?

> >

> > I hope you realize just how silly that suggestion is.

>

> Let's tone down the sensationalism ... there isn't even ONE profession that looks like chrono. THAT'S part of the problem.

>

>

 

Looks like the thread for cleaned up some and some of the thread is deleted. Not sure who reported, but regardless the suggestion was to triplicate chronomancer so that two additional classes could do the same boonshare tank, etc. I think this thread has been beaten to death... Basically two camps in this that do not agree.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > So Cyninja, you (and supposedly "most") are saying all classes need to have an equal amount of boonshare and tanking capabilities? Really?

> > >

> > > So your suggestion is that we now have 9 professions that look like chrono?

> > >

> > > I hope you realize just how silly that suggestion is.

> >

> > Let's tone down the sensationalism ... there isn't even ONE profession that looks like chrono. THAT'S part of the problem.

> >

> >

>

> Looks like the thread for cleaned up some and some of the thread is deleted. Not sure who reported, but regardless the suggestion was to triplicate chronomancer so that two additional classes could do the same boonshare tank, etc. I think this thread has been beaten to death... Basically two camps in this that do not agree.

 

Nope, entire thread is still here. You did get a strike on your last personal attack though which was removed. The suggestion to give 1-2 classes quickness and alacrity is still there.

 

You simply misunderstood Obtena. What he said was: there is not one class which provides the same amount of support as chrono, that is the problem. Which can be read both ways:

 

A. there needs to be more classes like chrono with similar ability to support

B. chrono needs to get toned down so it is no longer an outlier

 

Both viable methods to approach this balance issue and which have been getting discussed both here and in past threads.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > > So Cyninja, you (and supposedly "most") are saying all classes need to have an equal amount of boonshare and tanking capabilities? Really?

> > > >

> > > > So your suggestion is that we now have 9 professions that look like chrono?

> > > >

> > > > I hope you realize just how silly that suggestion is.

> > >

> > > Let's tone down the sensationalism ... there isn't even ONE profession that looks like chrono. THAT'S part of the problem.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Looks like the thread for cleaned up some and some of the thread is deleted. Not sure who reported, but regardless the suggestion was to triplicate chronomancer so that two additional classes could do the same boonshare tank, etc. I think this thread has been beaten to death... Basically two camps in this that do not agree.

>

> Nope, entire thread is still here. You did get a strike on your last personal attack though which was removed. The suggestion to give 1-2 classes quickness and alacrity is still there.

>

> You simply misunderstood Obtena. What he said was: there is not one class which provides the same amount of support as chrono, that is the problem. Which can be read both ways:

>

> A. there needs to be more classes like chrono with similar ability to support

> B. chrono needs to get toned down so it is no longer an outlier

>

> Both viable methods to approach this balance issue and which have been getting discussed both here and in past threads.

 

A is better option in my oppinion. No matter how hard you nerf chrono, chrono will still be op (if I accept that chrono is op because it is the only class that do something) or usless.

On the other hand if there is competition in support spots then you might balance around that.

There would be competition if firebrand mantras worked in more them 5 player squads, if rev could provide alacrity to 10 players or if spirits were removed.

 

Right now firebrand/rev dont work because you need to take 1 druid anyway. If rev could be first healer and firebrand was not buged then there might be competition

[Astralporing.1957]

Seems that we're going to see now who was right. Chrono just got nerfed hard to say yet how significantly, although it doesn't look good from a casual look, if i am reading the patchnotes right. On the other hand, even though firebrand got unbugged, there's still no sensible replacement i can see for chrono.

So, hardly an improvement to anything.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Seems that we're going to see now who was right. Chrono just got nerfed hard to say yet how significantly, although it doesn't look good from a casual look, if i am reading the patchnotes right. On the other hand, even though firebrand got unbugged, there's still no sensible replacement i can see for chrono.

> So, hardly an improvement to anything.

 

I think teams that are running two Chronomancers shouldn't have a problem adapting since Signet of Inspiration can be traited to affect 10 targets now. The "problem" is gonna be in fractals where you can't have two chronos.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Seems that we're going to see now who was right. Chrono just got nerfed hard to say yet how significantly, although it doesn't look good from a casual look, if i am reading the patchnotes right. On the other hand, even though firebrand got unbugged, there's still no sensible replacement i can see for chrono.

> So, hardly an improvement to anything.

 

Its not exactly a nerf. chronos lost lesser soi, but they also gained 10 man soi. Those 2 skills had identical cool downs. So its like chrono lost half its soi uses, but they are now able to be twice as strong. Everything a chrono lost in terms of single group buffing, it gained in terms of 2 group buffing.

 

However, this also means that composition might be less modular? It seems like you either go 2 chrono or 0 chronos. i.e I don't think you could do something like group 1 chrono, group 2 renegade + firebrand, as the chrono group will struggle for boons I think. Although, technically there are dueling builds pre-patch that didn't have lesser soi either.

 

Will be interesting to see what develops.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Seems that we're going to see now who was right. Chrono just got nerfed hard to say yet how significantly, although it doesn't look good from a casual look, if i am reading the patchnotes right. On the other hand, even though firebrand got unbugged, there's still no sensible replacement i can see for chrono.

> > So, hardly an improvement to anything.

>

> Its not exactly a nerf. chronos lost lesser soi, but they also gained 10 man soi. Those 2 skills had identical cool downs. So its like chrono lost half its soi uses, but they are now able to be twice as strong. Everything a chrono lost in terms of single group buffing, it gained in terms of 2 group buffing.

>

> However, this also means that composition might be less modular? It seems like you either go 2 chrono or 0 chronos. i.e I don't think you could do something like group 1 chrono, group 2 renegade + firebrand, as the chrono group will struggle for boons I think. Although, technically there are dueling builds pre-patch that didn't have lesser soi either.

>

> Will be interesting to see what develops.

Yep, it enforces the double chrono comp even more, no place for alternative second group setup here. Also, it _is_ an effective nerf even in 10-man content, because to stay at the previous boon upkeep values you'd need to have perfect cooperation between both chronos (which in most cases you won't have). And that's still only SoI changes, there's also well of recall nerf.

 

And of course that's in raids. In fractals it is just a straight nerf. It will be also a nerf in any situation where you have group splits (like twin largos).

They really should have just changed the Blurred inscriptions enhancement of SoI from 10 man to double shared boon time.

 

[Amineo.8951]

I'm glad they nerfed Chrono but holy crap they really destroyed DPS Guardian/DH though, that Sword of Wrath and Symbol of Punishment nerf is really big.

 

Oh well, now it's time for Druid to get a nerf.

[Grogba.6204]

Chrono remains with Moa, TW, Gravity well, Focus pull, Tides of Time, Aegis share, portals and is _**still the only class that maintains both Alacrity and Quickness.**_

 

This won't change the Raid meta at all, but will likely force both Chronos to play Chaos/Inspiration for the 10 player boon share. Only alternative would be two Firebrand and two Renegades without a Chrono. The nerf hits a single Chrono and fractal Chronos the most but the class offers enough boon uptime if people stack inside the wells, get hit from Tides of Times and receive SoIs (So about those "Social Awkwardness" changes, Ben).

 

This punishes the average Chrono, Warr, Druid + 2 DPS group much more than the Chrono, Warr + 3 DPS group by nature of having longer fights.

 

And even then, Chaos Chrono can maintain 100% uptime of both buffs on itself, a few runs on the test golem made it clear that Quickness uptime for the group suffers the most (83-85% Quickness on group now, at least during my test runs). This doesn't concern Soulbeasts too much thanks to "Healing as One!" and the trait with the same effect.

 

I predict that this will likely lead to groups relying on a healer to kick the Druid and add a Hybrid Firebrand for Aegis, Stability, Healing and Quickness. *shrug*

 

 

> @"Amineo.8951" said:

> they really destroyed DPS Guardian/DH though, that Sword of Wrath and Symbol of Punishment nerf is really big.

>

 

Sword was buffed if you let the chain finish but if you interrupt it then yes, it's a nerf.

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

They changed everything i said. Mantras are fixed and renegade can provide alacrity to 10 players. On some fights fb/rev might be better then chrono (like w6b2 where you need to split).

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> They changed everything i said. Mantras are fixed and renegade can provide alacrity to 10 players. On some fights fb/rev might be better then chrono (like w6b2 where you need to split).

 

Mantra fix and renegade alacrity 10-man cap won't make a difference on that fight, actually. And i doubt anyone would take fb+rene x2 (for each squad) anyway. You'd still be taking 2 builds to replace one.

We'll see, i guess.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > They changed everything i said. Mantras are fixed and renegade can provide alacrity to 10 players. On some fights fb/rev might be better then chrono (like w6b2 where you need to split).

>

> Mantra fix and renegade alacrity 10-man cap won't make a difference on that fight, actually. And i doubt anyone would take fb+rene x2 (for each squad) anyway. You'd still be taking 2 builds to replace one.

> We'll see, i guess.

 

Yes. Another idea is that some mirages take signet there and since mirages and condi chronos are meta there now, i dont think that will change.