Scourge makes PvP not fun.

[Buran.3796]

> @Rodzynald.5897 said:

 

 

> Besides, even if some FB's find themselves in a teamfight on F3 tome to counter scourge, you are completely vulnerable to power damage that spellbreakers or any other power build brings in plenty. Aegis doesn't work, as a random fart in the wind can blow it off, following a few K hit to the face. I've tried bunker guard on FB and it is horrible.

 

Seems that Tage doesn't find the same problems playing as a bunker Firebrand:

 

 

Fought yeaterday a similar spport/bunker FB with my power Herald, and was a similar experience to matches vs the old "celestial ele" stuff: near impossible to kill in single 1 vs 1. And I think that it proves that FB defends well himself vs both condi and power builds, because Spellbreaker goes nowhere near to a power Herald in terms of damage.

 

[kin korn karn.9023]

Yup it's out of control. 1v1ing a scourge is bad enough, but they completely wreck team fights. It's not a l2p issue. A half-decent scourge has way too much sustain for how much damage they can dish out on a node, and they make downstate completely pointless.

 

Every time queue pops I cross my fingers my team has more scourges than the other, cos otherwise it's about 90% chance of loss. That's how bad it is. Match outcome currently is almost always determined by which team has more scourges.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> Yup it's out of control. 1v1ing a scourge is bad enough, but they completely wreck team fights. It's not a l2p issue. A half-decent scourge has way too much sustain for how much damage they can dish out on a node, and they make downstate completely pointless.

>

> Every time queue pops I cross my fingers my team has more scourges than the other, cos otherwise it's about 90% chance of loss. That's how bad it is. Match outcome currently is almost always determined by which team has more scourges.

 

stop playing in low rating.............

any player with class knowledge and proper burst build can blow up a Scourge with almost any class......

 

a scourge has like 0 selfsustain instead of going againts and fighting classes that have high mobility and insane sustain and letting the scourge sit on the point and free cast all day jump on him and just melt it.... a necro cant even run away from a Snail....

[Weerus.3701]

I know classes can be op, and a lot of ppl jump on that band wagon. But can't you just go and play their counter in current meta? You can't just expect that what you play will always be viable. Scourge probably really needs nerf, but you being unable to do shit is your own fault.

[Jacobin.8509]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> a scourge has like 0 selfsustain instead of going againts and fighting classes that have high mobility and insane sustain and letting the scourge sit on the point and free cast all day jump on him and just melt it.... a necro cant even run away from a Snail....

 

Scourge has 3 stun breaks and 7k in barriers that it can cast frequently. Its weak to ranged power but its not as brittle as ppl like to pretend.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @Buran.3796 said:

> > @Rodzynald.5897 said:

>

>

> > Besides, even if some FB's find themselves in a teamfight on F3 tome to counter scourge, you are completely vulnerable to power damage that spellbreakers or any other power build brings in plenty. Aegis doesn't work, as a random fart in the wind can blow it off, following a few K hit to the face. I've tried bunker guard on FB and it is horrible.

>

> Seems that Tage doesn't find the same problems playing as a bunker Firebrand:

>

>

>

> Fought yeaterday a similar spport/bunker FB with my power Herald, and was a similar experience to matches vs the old "celestial ele" stuff: near impossible to kill in single 1 vs 1. And I think that it proves that FB defends well himself vs both condi and power builds, because Spellbreaker goes nowhere near to a power Herald in terms of damage.

>

 

1st: An exception is not a status quo.

2nd: If you want to look at bunker FB, any decent (not great) bunker build will sustain in a 1v1 fight. Today I've entered ranked with two bunker FB's both in my and enemy team. Our bunker barely managed to heal us, and the enemy bunk, despite being a good healer, he crumbled once we caught him on F2 or F3 book. However, even when I was targetting him, he burned all his cooldowns to save his own bottom and even if I didn't manage to kill him, it turned out that his whole team died on mid beacause he couldn't keep at it with healing both his team and watching himself. And this is not an exception, it happens very, very frequently during matches I play.

3rd: Besides, this game is build wars 2. As in one thread someone mentioned fighting scourges, it depends on what you run. Besides, from what sort of game that video is, were their enemies the same level as they are? Based on that encounter and how ridiculously that thief died, I am ot sure that they fought enemies who knew what they were doing.

4rd: In the end it is all based on many, many different aspects that have to take place in the same time. The video of a one instance is a proof of one player's skill and a top tier at that, a proof of certain situation that happened in that particular moment. What I described is also a one, particular instance, but it is a description of a situation that happens way more frequently than what that video showed, even if both teams are equally skilled. Those players who play in the highest ranks are another level and should not be compared with random Bobs (us) that play ranked for legendary armour, going with whatever is a flavour of the month in current meta.

[Buran.3796]

> @Rodzynald.5897 said:

> Those players who play in the highest ranks are another level and should not be compared with random Bobs (us) that play ranked for legendary armour, going with whatever is a flavour of the month in current meta.

 

I agree in part, but I don't think that the game should be balanced based in how the professions are played at low tier, but about how are played at its finest. Scourges are easy to play and effective, but if you don't follow the "flavor of the month" that means literaly nothing. I was for a long time a Guardian and Warrior player; three seasons ago swapped to Rev as my main, and despite is much harder to play (and the PoF does nothing for the class in PvP) I keep playing Rev.

 

As I said before, playing easy/op builds doesn't makes you learn too much about the game. Personally I'm having a lot of fun playing vs Scourges and Spellbreakers as power Herald (way more than fighting against Mesmers and Thieves constantly warping to stealth).

[Exciton.8942]

> @Buran.3796 said:

> > @Rodzynald.5897 said:

> > Those players who play in the highest ranks are another level and should not be compared with random Bobs (us) that play ranked for legendary armour, going with whatever is a flavour of the month in current meta.

>

> I agree in part, but I don't think that the game should be balanced based in how the professions are played at low tier, but about how are played at its finest. Scourges are easy to play and effective, but if you don't follow the "flavor of the month" that means literaly nothing. I was for a long time a Guardian and Warrior player; three seasons ago swapped to Rev as my main, and despite is much harder to play (and the PoF does nothing for the class in PvP) I keep playing Rev.

>

> As I said before, playing easy/op builds doesn't makes you learn too much about the game. Personally I'm having a lot of fun playing vs Scourges and Spellbreakers as power Herald (way more than fighting against Mesmers and Thieves constantly warping to stealth).

 

Well, if we talk about top level play, you can go check out helseth and phantaram's stream. They both have problems with scourge and spellbreakers and think they are too strong..

 

 

[bluff.8962]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

 

>

> Well, if we talk about top level play, you can go check out helseth and phantaram's stream. They both have problems with scourge and spellbreakers and think they are too strong..

>

>

I've been on the top level streams as well and have heard the same.

 

These pros from a pvp aspect could've been a great asset in closed testing. They know the game incredibly well. And could've kept this from ever happening. Anet should've reached out to them.

 

[silent killer.5732]

> @Parlance.9584 said:

> When I made this thread, I admit I was pretty salty.

> But after making a Scourge and getting all the way from the bottom of gold 1 to almost plat I have to say that anyone who thinks this class isn't broken is delusional.

 

You play in which server! I will check your ranking today

[Buran.3796]

> @bluff.8962 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

>

> >

> > Well, if we talk about top level play, you can go check out helseth and phantaram's stream. They both have problems with scourge and spellbreakers and think they are too strong..

> >

> >

> I've been on the top level streams as well and have heard the same.

>

> These pros from a pvp aspect could've been a great asset in closed testing. They know the game incredibly well. And could've kept this from ever happening. Anet should've reached out to them.

>

 

I watch them and others as Sindrener, Caith, Frostball or Arken on regular basis, and yes, Sindrener seems on the opinion that the best current roster probably should be something like 2 Scourges + 2 Spellbreakers +1 Firebrand, so I see how some of the new classes should require a balance. But take in consideration that some of those players are used to single handly facerrolling most of other classes abusing the huge disengaging tools and self sustain they have.

 

Honestly I'm more interested to known the take on this from Tage, because I never heard Helseth or Sindrener saying "o my gosh, necros and guardians are now such in bad state that they are in desperate need of buffs". By the way, the topic of "the team with most Scourges wins" is fairly inacurate, they are very strong in terms of AoE damage and cc, but lack mobility and are somewhat weak to cc themselves. Spellbreakers do less damage than the Berserkers, and Warriors have been outside the meta for a while.

[RedSPINE.7845]

Didn't read everything, but just made games against a team with two scourges twice. Maybe it's an exception, maybe everyone on my side was bad. But watching teamfights was enough for me to google "are scourges op in pvp?". We were trying to focus targets, they just wiped the entire team at the same time, more than 15 times. It just looked like a huge green sand storm blew up in seconds any time we tried to take the mid point.

 

I play a Scrapper (the meta build) and took my cleansing gyro but it was totally useless. Spamming all my cleansing abilities weren't enough and I spent all the time with 5 or more conditions on me.

[Kuya.6495]

I have to stop reading the necro forums reactions to all of this otherwise I'm gonna lobby anet to delete necro from the game so i never have to read these things again.

[Murdock.6547]

High power burst obliterates scourge. heavy cc obliterates scourge. strong focus obliterates scourge, and hard engaging on a scourge who just condi bombed someone else obliterates scourge.

 

I'm a garbage bag of a thief and yet somehow I seem to eat scourges like a snack whenever I watch them roll their Fskills and obliterate someone else.

YES their shades are too strong to stand in ... but.. no shit? Don't stand in AoEs you ape. Necro has -always- been focused on keeping its enemies out of reach of them with area denial via wells, marks, or just spooky fields (poison and plaguelands) ... now they have GENUINELY DANGEROUS FIELDS and suddenly people forget how necromancer works?

 

Scourge did nothing to change necro; this is necro on steroids is all. Everything that worked before (focus, cc, and burst) still works. if anything it works even better because now necro doesn't have the sponging of shroud or the stability from reaper shroud.

Unbad yourselves, and coordinate to focus. Their escapes still don't exist and so long as you don't eat the fear and sit on your knees with your mouth open for the condi splurge you shouldn't be getting obliterated while focusing a necro.

 

Tl;dr: Stop standing in their aoe (yes, I know you want to cap. but this is what area denial is. kill the source of it if you want to stand there), don't get feared (it's instant cast so I won't call you bad if you do, but at least have a stunbreak ready), and use teamwork.

 

Also scourge is the reason hard bunkers will not exist any further unless they have non-boon related invuln spam. But invuln prevents point contribution so lul even if they do. So I welcome them entirely. Fuck ventari rev, and fuck bunker firebrand.

[silent killer.5732]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> High power burst obliterates scourge. heavy cc obliterates scourge. strong focus obliterates scourge, and hard engaging on a scourge who just condi bombed someone else obliterates scourge.

>

> I'm a garbage bag of a thief and yet somehow I seem to eat scourges like a snack whenever I watch them roll their Fskills and obliterate someone else.

> YES their shades are too strong to stand in ... but.. no kitten? Don't stand in AoEs you ape. Necro has -always- been focused on keeping its enemies out of reach of them with area denial via wells, marks, or just spooky fields (poison and plaguelands) ... now they have GENUINELY DANGEROUS FIELDS and suddenly people forget how necromancer works?

>

> Scourge did nothing to change necro; this is necro on steroids is all. Everything that worked before (focus, cc, and burst) still works. if anything it works even better because now necro doesn't have the sponging of shroud or the stability from reaper shroud.

> Unbad yourselves, and coordinate to focus. Their escapes still don't exist and so long as you don't eat the fear and sit on your knees with your mouth open for the condi splurge you shouldn't be getting obliterated while focusing a necro.

>

> Tl;dr: Stop standing in their aoe (yes, I know you want to cap. but this is what area denial is. kill the source of it if you want to stand there), don't get feared (it's instant cast so I won't call you bad if you do, but at least have a stunbreak ready), and use teamwork.

>

> Also scourge is the reason hard bunkers will not exist any further unless they have non-boon related invuln spam. But invuln prevents point contribution so lul even if they do. So I welcome them entirely. kitten ventari rev, and kitten bunker firebrand.

 

You are the only one who honest here about the scourge. The aoe classes now killed us even more i was angry about the scourge mainly because of the death shroud we lost and secondary for the fact we only can play condi build while my necro were power reaper and i love being power not condi

 

The theive and the mesmers and the rangers are our perfict enemies and if the enemy team are good they will defend those aoe classes and there is no op scourge would work after this form

 

We still die to one theif burst or mesmer or ranger

And we didn't Say anything since the very beginning..

[Aomine.5012]

> @"silent killer.5732" said:

> > @Murdock.6547 said:

> > High power burst obliterates scourge. heavy cc obliterates scourge. strong focus obliterates scourge, and hard engaging on a scourge who just condi bombed someone else obliterates scourge.

> >

> > I'm a garbage bag of a thief and yet somehow I seem to eat scourges like a snack whenever I watch them roll their Fskills and obliterate someone else.

> > YES their shades are too strong to stand in ... but.. no kitten? Don't stand in AoEs you ape. Necro has -always- been focused on keeping its enemies out of reach of them with area denial via wells, marks, or just spooky fields (poison and plaguelands) ... now they have GENUINELY DANGEROUS FIELDS and suddenly people forget how necromancer works?

> >

> > Scourge did nothing to change necro; this is necro on steroids is all. Everything that worked before (focus, cc, and burst) still works. if anything it works even better because now necro doesn't have the sponging of shroud or the stability from reaper shroud.

> > Unbad yourselves, and coordinate to focus. Their escapes still don't exist and so long as you don't eat the fear and sit on your knees with your mouth open for the condi splurge you shouldn't be getting obliterated while focusing a necro.

> >

> > Tl;dr: Stop standing in their aoe (yes, I know you want to cap. but this is what area denial is. kill the source of it if you want to stand there), don't get feared (it's instant cast so I won't call you bad if you do, but at least have a stunbreak ready), and use teamwork.

> >

> > Also scourge is the reason hard bunkers will not exist any further unless they have non-boon related invuln spam. But invuln prevents point contribution so lul even if they do. So I welcome them entirely. kitten ventari rev, and kitten bunker firebrand.

>

> You are the only one who honest here about the scourge. The aoe classes now killed us even more i was angry about the scourge mainly because of the death shroud we lost and secondary for the fact we only can play condi build while my necro were power reaper and i love being power not condi

>

> The theive and the mesmers and the rangers are our perfict enemies and if the enemy team are good they will defend those aoe classes and there is no op scourge would work after this form

>

> We still die to one theif burst or mesmer or ranger

> And we didn't Say anything since the very beginning..

 

Trying to play victim when 95% of the matches have 3~4 scourge per game.

 

Sure.

 

And yes, range class like Deadeye should kill you, but other than that Deadeye doesn't do much either and no-way defeating Spellbreaker or Firebrand.

Mesmer and Ranger also got countered by Spellbreaker completely, so playing them are at a disadvantage too.

 

Also what Scourge excel at is when there're 2 decent Scourge present in a team, they'd win any team fight that's not Foefire (big circle).

The good scourge use terrain for their advantage and utilize portal.

[silent killer.5732]

> @Aomine.5012 said:

> > @"silent killer.5732" said:

> > > @Murdock.6547 said:

> > > High power burst obliterates scourge. heavy cc obliterates scourge. strong focus obliterates scourge, and hard engaging on a scourge who just condi bombed someone else obliterates scourge.

> > >

> > > I'm a garbage bag of a thief and yet somehow I seem to eat scourges like a snack whenever I watch them roll their Fskills and obliterate someone else.

> > > YES their shades are too strong to stand in ... but.. no kitten? Don't stand in AoEs you ape. Necro has -always- been focused on keeping its enemies out of reach of them with area denial via wells, marks, or just spooky fields (poison and plaguelands) ... now they have GENUINELY DANGEROUS FIELDS and suddenly people forget how necromancer works?

> > >

> > > Scourge did nothing to change necro; this is necro on steroids is all. Everything that worked before (focus, cc, and burst) still works. if anything it works even better because now necro doesn't have the sponging of shroud or the stability from reaper shroud.

> > > Unbad yourselves, and coordinate to focus. Their escapes still don't exist and so long as you don't eat the fear and sit on your knees with your mouth open for the condi splurge you shouldn't be getting obliterated while focusing a necro.

> > >

> > > Tl;dr: Stop standing in their aoe (yes, I know you want to cap. but this is what area denial is. kill the source of it if you want to stand there), don't get feared (it's instant cast so I won't call you bad if you do, but at least have a stunbreak ready), and use teamwork.

> > >

> > > Also scourge is the reason hard bunkers will not exist any further unless they have non-boon related invuln spam. But invuln prevents point contribution so lul even if they do. So I welcome them entirely. kitten ventari rev, and kitten bunker firebrand.

> >

> > You are the only one who honest here about the scourge. The aoe classes now killed us even more i was angry about the scourge mainly because of the death shroud we lost and secondary for the fact we only can play condi build while my necro were power reaper and i love being power not condi

> >

> > The theive and the mesmers and the rangers are our perfict enemies and if the enemy team are good they will defend those aoe classes and there is no op scourge would work after this form

> >

> > We still die to one theif burst or mesmer or ranger

> > And we didn't Say anything since the very beginning..

>

> Trying to play victim when 95% of the matches have 3~4 scourge per game.

>

> Sure.

>

> And yes, range class like Deadeye should kill you, but other than that Deadeye doesn't do much either and no-way defeating Spellbreaker or Firebrand.

> Mesmer and Ranger also got countered by Spellbreaker completely, so playing them are at a disadvantage too.

>

> Also what Scourge excel at is when there're 2 decent Scourge present in a team, they'd win any team fight that's not Foefire (big circle).

> The good scourge use terrain for their advantage and utilize portal.

 

Why you speak about spellbreaker while i talked about who can easily kills us as scourge

And being there more than 2 scourges it doesn't change the fact that any decent aoe player could easily make the scourge worthless.

 

I been in this situation a lot of times

Where the enemy team just focus on me right after i respawn

And i can't even generate any life Force because of the aoe classes killed me right after i show up in their range

[Crinn.7864]

Don't worry guys, the developers confirmed in the reddit AMA that scourge will be gutted into trash tier. Also the devs apparently believe that scourge is "high value defensively"

[Lan.1968]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> Don't worry guys, the developers confirmed in the reddit AMA that scourge will be gutted into trash tier. Also the devs apparently believe that scourge is "high value defensively"

 

oh really? where's the link for this AMA?

[Vitali.5039]

Scourge only need 3 changes:

1) no pulses on Sand Shades summoned after the Desert Shroud cast

2) the removal of ammo mechanic with Sand Savant trait

3) increased value of master traits when Sand Savant is selected

 

With this Scourges can't cheese with Savant/Shroud spam and Dhuumfire and suffer when a Sand Shade is bad placed, increasing the skill required to play.

 

I'm a necro main but I really like also play other professions and I hope they'll be all balanced and competitive

[Kori Jenkins.9017]

"well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

The thing that I love about all the "play this, it beats a scourge" argument is that it's usually a ranged class that can't hold a point. So if you're fighting over a point, cap it, you won't hold it because you have to get off the point to prevent death or to fight the scourge. Meanwhile, they've decapped or caped it. PvP is more than just being able to kill a class, you gotta hold points.

[Daffan.8924]

I am a newish player but unranked is so boring because of them.

 

I play guardian medi with 3 condi cleanse spells (1 full cleanse, 2 medium or w/e) and it still sucks bad. Oh wow you wiped out 10 condi and 1 second later you have another 10 stack of different red boxes again killing you and your dying in 2 seconds. not to mention playing caster is easy mode because you don't have to care about range or lag like melee does (This is one thing WoW does right by giving extra melee range to account for lag), and on top of that you spread your condi to everyone on the other team so you always do 70% of team damage and wreck.

 

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said:

> "well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

 

Meanwhile the only thing that can kill a d/p daredevil is a daredevil, but that's perfectly fine.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said:

> > "well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

>

> Meanwhile the only thing that can kill a d/p daredevil is a daredevil, but that's perfectly fine.

 

I know right! Lol the fact current scourge is hard-countered, and useless against classes with high damage ranged attacks. And people cry "ANet please make necro useless again."

 

But then you look at thief, I mean good people who plays thieves. They have no counter in this game mode. In WvW they become much more toxic and unfun to play against. Because of their insane mobility, stealth, and burst damage all in the same package. Good thieves are god mode against any other class other than itself.

 

Guess we should all just spam, nerf thief threads all over these forums as well. Never really got how people cry nerf everything but my class. Then when the devs listen. They sit and wonder. Why they have a supremely low amount of people. Willing to play the same game mode as them.

 

Good thing for other games with much, competent and smarter devs. and upper management. :trollface: