Scourge makes PvP not fun.

[Osred.3864]

As a spellbreaker I'm doing just fine against scourges. The problem is Spellbreaker seems to be its only counter in the current meta.

[Harry Foud.1935]

Scourges and Spellbreakers make pvp not fun because Scourges can 1v3 and Spellbreakers are dagger/shield-gs and they are immortal and can 1v3 also. There are people in the lobby that search for Scourges and Spellbreakes to party with. And the fact that they dont ask for a specific tier players says a lot. They just look for Scourges or Spellbreakes no matter if they are gold,silver or even bronze. Because those 2 classes are so op.

[Despond.2174]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said:

> > "well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

>

> Meanwhile the only thing that can kill a d/p daredevil is a daredevil, but that's perfectly fine.

 

d/p dd thieves aren't meant to be team fighters. They are roamers, looking for +1s, using their mobility quickly to time a spike then get out, decap and team stealth. A thief isn't meant to be trying to 1vs1, in fact they will owned on node again most classes, dueling in spvp isn't their role or strength so trying to use them in an argument against like pro 1vs1ers like SB, engins is pointless. Plus the skill cap to be a decent thief is much higher, with high pay-off for your team but also extremely detrimental if they aren't good where just having another necro or any support/team fighter that isn't even good would be much better than a bad thief.

 

You can't kill a DD d/p because they are forced to disengage a lot, that's a big different between you can't kill a dd d/p thief in a duel to the end because you can, and quite easily with much stronger 1vs1 classes.

 

My point is, d/p DD thief is one rare profession atm that is really well designed with a high skill cap/ hard to master system and decent balance with rewardvsrisk. As for SB and scourge, I think we all know they will get tweaked, but they shouldn't be over-nerfed, especially SB because outside of PVP it has no strong role thus will just be a final blow to the whole spec.

[silent killer.5732]

> @Osred.3864 said:

> As a spellbreaker I'm doing just fine against scourges. The problem is Spellbreaker seems to be its only counter in the current meta.

 

Why you lie though?

Scourge are extremely weak against thieves and rangers too. And all those ranged classes (in the current meta)

[silent killer.5732]

> @"Reaper Alim.4176" said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said:

> > > "well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

> >

> > Meanwhile the only thing that can kill a d/p daredevil is a daredevil, but that's perfectly fine.

>

> I know right! Lol the fact current scourge is hard-countered, and useless against classes with high damage ranged attacks. And people cry "ANet please make necro useless again."

>

> But then you look at thief, I mean good people who plays thieves. They have no counter in this game mode. In WvW they become much more toxic and unfun to play against. Because of their insane mobility, stealth, and burst damage all in the same package. Good thieves are god mode against any other class other than itself.

>

> Guess we should all just spam, nerf thief threads all over these forums as well. Never really got how people cry nerf everything but my class. Then when the devs listen. They sit and wonder. Why they have a supremely low amount of people. Willing to play the same game mode as them.

>

> Good thing for other games with much, competent and smarter devs. and upper management. :trollface:

 

This is it.

Not to mention they have the ability to teleport to the target location and teleport back to where they were standing. And its really op skills and it hasn't even any cd on it

 

 

[Kyon.9735]

I hate thieves, they're the natural predator of my Ele since day 1. Kidding aside, I think thieves are really relevant to this meta. They're the only class that can consistently surprise +1 a spell breaker. It'd usually be a waste of time for other classes to +1 a spell breaker but thieves can end stalemate 1v1s in a node.

 

I've been watching Sindrener recently and I noticed that he can accurately and consistently predict where thieves he sees that goes in stealth will lurk or where they will shadowstep to/from. Of course it helps that he's a proficient thief himself but the point is that it can be learned and countered properly. The downside is you'll have to play thief a lot yourself to learn it which takes a reaaaaaaally long time so... thieves will be another story. Needless to say, they're really good for this meta and is nowhere near as broken as scourge/spell breaker. It doesn't make sense to point fingers on other classes when your class takes the heat.

 

Scourges with no telegraphs on their F skills and spell breakers who can easily spam full counter in the middle of a team fight are less likely to be countered. Fixing bugs and adding telegraphs on scourge skills would help a lot. Meanwhile, spell breakers does way too many things with 1 skill on a very low CD. I mean, if there are 3 guys against a spell breaker in a team fight and this 1 guy makes a mistake against that spell breaker on full counter, does it make sense that all 3 of them gets punished heavily? Not to mention that AI controlled things like clones can trigger FC too.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @"Reaper Alim.4176" said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said:

> > > "well this beats them" is not the answer. If a class is dominated over half of the others, it needs to be nerfed.

> >

> > Meanwhile the only thing that can kill a d/p daredevil is a daredevil, but that's perfectly fine.

>

> I know right! Lol the fact current scourge is hard-countered, and useless against classes with high damage ranged attacks. And people cry "ANet please make necro useless again."

>

> But then you look at thief, I mean good people who plays thieves. They have no counter in this game mode. In WvW they become much more toxic and unfun to play against. Because of their insane mobility, stealth, and burst damage all in the same package. Good thieves are god mode against any other class other than itself.

>

> Guess we should all just spam, nerf thief threads all over these forums as well. Never really got how people cry nerf everything but my class. Then when the devs listen. They sit and wonder. Why they have a supremely low amount of people. Willing to play the same game mode as them.

>

> Good thing for other games with much, competent and smarter devs. and upper management. :trollface:

 

Even without Scourge, there are at least two Reaper specs that are pretty good. The big reasons they're weak at the moment are Scourge and Spellbreaker, just like everything that lacks either mobility or ranged damage.

 

And d/p Daredevils can be countered. Even if you don't kill them, driving them off of the point every time they come by does render them pretty useless, and there are specs that can do that (which are currently underplayed because, you guessed it, they are _painful_ to use against Scourges and Spellbreakers).

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

I think some people are missing a few key points.

 

Can scourge be beaten 1v1? Yes, Yes it can. It can be kited, it can also be avoided.

Is there any counter play to scourge? Sure.

 

But what has to be done to counter them? Well in 1v1 as listed you can kite them, but in a match that is equivalent of them getting a free cap, not to mention anything that can counter a scourge 1v1 will likely die to spell-breakers as their mobility and reflects allow them to cover the scourges weaknesses. This is a team game after all, and should be looked at it in that context. If you are beating scourges 1v1 on p/p thief you are fighting a bad/disorganized team at that point, or a bad team comp.

 

Also You can counter or at least beat a good meta team scourge comp by running a very similar comp and just outplaying/comping the other team, but this does not change the fact that this makes the meta lack diversity, or more importantly that it is NOT FUN. I personally find spamming shades a bit boring, but no other necro spec is going to offer as much as a scourge can so I quickly feel forced into one build for necro, condi scourge.

 

So we have a spec that many find not fun to play, many find not fun to play against, and from a conquest/team perspective offers little counter-play other than running the same stale comp.

 

In addition the shear existence of this meta negates many other classes and builds from seeing the light of day, like herald, weaver, many mirage and chrono builds are at a disadvantage, holosmith, d/p theif, and the list goes on...

 

So even if you wanted to say, "oh just run this or that" or "kite more" this doesn't change the fact that in a team conquest scenario you are actually more likely hurting your team even if you manage to kill the 1-2 scourges.

 

... And even if we say that just switching to "x" class is fine for balance purposes it doesn't change the fact that the meta is not fun and fails to include the majority of the classes.

 

As a final note I cannot remember the last time metabattle had such a limited roster of meta builds and I actually agreed that these meta builds sum up the entire meta.

 


 

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

 

After DH was nerfed, the number and variety of builds in the meta increased, and DH was still viable. What is the problem with careful nerfs?

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

 

Lol, I am playing scourge, also Nerfing to the ground and nerfing are vastly different.

[Loboling.5293]

Still waiting on an eta for the nerfs to SB and Scourge. Scourge needs some cast times to avoid the whole roll face F1->F4. I'm not sure how to approach Spellbreaker, it's obviously a little too strong in 1v1, but I'm not sure how to approach this. Scourge is just no fun to fight against. Such a bad design for pvp.

[Griever.8150]

Would just be nice to have an ETA on a balance patch, they have internal data i can't imagine they don't see most games involve at least 1 or 2 Scourge/Firebrand/Spellbreaker atm.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Jacobin.8509 said:

> So if you are sitting on a point and a scourge comes at you are you going to just let it decap?

>

> Yes the 2-3 viable ranged power will likely win eventually but you are conceding the entire objective of conquest. Ranged builds also get completely wrecked by SB so good luck with that one.

 

Ranged builds are the counter to spellbreaker, what the hell are you talking about? Soulbeast is good against spellbreaker because it can kite out its full counter and wear him down.

 

Melee specs are the ones that suffer against spell breaker.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Jacobin.8509 said:

> > So if you are sitting on a point and a scourge comes at you are you going to just let it decap?

> >

> > Yes the 2-3 viable ranged power will likely win eventually but you are conceding the entire objective of conquest. Ranged builds also get completely wrecked by SB so good luck with that one.

>

> Ranged builds are the counter to spellbreaker, what the hell are you talking about? Soulbeast is good against spellbreaker because it can kite out its full counter and wear him down.

>

> Melee specs are the ones that suffer against spell breaker.

 

Range specs need mobility to counter Spellbreaker, because it has a lot of mobility itself.

[yLoon.5289]

I do not agree with the Title. Should rephrase to "Unskilled Players makes PvP extremely unFun"

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Jacobin.8509 said:

> > > So if you are sitting on a point and a scourge comes at you are you going to just let it decap?

> > >

> > > Yes the 2-3 viable ranged power will likely win eventually but you are conceding the entire objective of conquest. Ranged builds also get completely wrecked by SB so good luck with that one.

> >

> > Ranged builds are the counter to spellbreaker, what the hell are you talking about? Soulbeast is good against spellbreaker because it can kite out its full counter and wear him down.

> >

> > Melee specs are the ones that suffer against spell breaker.

>

> Range specs need mobility to counter Spellbreaker, because it has a lot of mobility itself.

 

Most ranged specs do have mobility. Ranger and Deadeye are pretty good on that point (Deadeye may be low compared to Daredevil, but overall, it's still a high mobility spec) and it's easy to do things like Gunflame Zerker that have good mobility as well (I know, not meta, but if Scourges really are that oppressive, maybe that should be looked at).

[Kori Jenkins.9017]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

 

The issue is not a "bad player problem" as you so smugly and condescendingly put it. The issue is that this class can outburst any other class by simply placing condis down on the ground underneath you, and the aoe of these condis is far too large. Go down and get rezzed? Instantly killed by condis again.

 

On top of that necro isn't even really that easy to kill as they can constantly shield themselves and heal.

 

For the damage it does necro should be easier to kill than a thief.

[choovanski.5462]

@"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

 

honestly, scourge is going to have to be not viable for the forum community to be happy. AOE condi builds are never going to be seen as acceptable

 

I mean, yeah scourge is overtuned rn. but even if it's toned down, but to the level where it's still doing big damage- people will still QQ on the forum. it will literally take it getting nerfed so you can facetank sandshades for free to stop the QQ

[Reaper Alim.4176]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > Wow I heard this same rant last year for dragon hunters. And the year before that, herald. Nerfing is not going to solve the bad player problem, but learning will. Sorry, but even when it gets nerfed to the ground, people will still complain about it being to hard.

>

> honestly, scourge is going to have to be not viable for the forum community to be happy. AOE condi builds are never going to be seen as acceptable

>

> I mean, yeah scourge is overtuned rn. but even if it's toned down, but to the level where it's still doing big damage- people will still QQ on the forum. it will literally take it getting nerfed so you can facetank sandshades for free to stop the QQ

 

Well yeah because honestly. Who need necros in any game? 800 gems says once ANet makes necro useless, another class and build will take it's place. and won't get nerfed. Then people can go back to crying that ANet over nerfed Necros. :lol:

[ellesee.8297]

Hello frands.

 

I came back to this game with an open mind, but scourge proves anet is still, after so many years, godawful at balance. Simply awful.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I believe there's no need to complain about it anymore. They are clearly working too well too often. And I'm sure ANet's statitics will show them they are being too effective, and they need some tweaks so they can't deal that much damage and endure it that much at the same time.

 

We can waste all the time in the world debating about it, but none of us have their metrics. But in this particular case, for what I've observed, this is clearly not a "learn to play" issue, but players figuring out a few gimmicky combinations that were unintended, and that they will surely be addressed in the next balance patch.

 

Once they are fixed, we'll have the usual "necro is useless now" posts that actually mean "I lost my unskilled spam to win build and I want it back", and people will eventually adapt and settle down, just as always.

[RedSPINE.7845]

Don't know why people keep saying necros aren't played for a long time, before PoF release, I've seen so much more necros than elems or revs...

[MyPuppy.8970]

Actually, as sword/dagger weaver, in a teamfight, scourge are not as threatening as people may say. 1v1 on point is pretty much impossible or maybe i'm still not good enough. But if you can use their mistakes to your avantage, they're quite killable. More than spellbreaker anyway.

It must be even easier for damage ranged specs.

 

I won't deny they need some tuning, as every other spec -not counting bugs or legendary gazelle os kill- But really they don't deserve a hard nerf. I dont play much necro or scourge, but i feel the scourge can be pretty much close from balance. The hardest thing in a fight is to see clearly what their stuff do, but I get quickly in and out anyway, since we can't just let them free cast/cap . Just add a clear visual to the skills and shave off the conditions but maybe increase the direct damage as a tradeoff, idk. It just doesn't feel right when a class can fart out so many condies at once, with one condi procing another one. Scourges are still slow and squishy, they have a weak point so there is no need to nerf the class to the ground.

[Vague Memory.2817]

I've had my last match of PvP today. Matches are just not fun to play. Scourges and Spellbreakers have ruined it for me. But really PvP was already going down the drain before that. Little to no counterplay, just like when DH was first release, and because of ANETS dumb policy of breaking things but leaving them for the rest of the season for some unknown bizarre reason I know nothing will be done about it for ages, and they even don't listen when everyone (except people maining Scourge or Spellbreaker) are telling them how much PvP sucks. Ridiculous no skill, no counterplay PvP where low skill bar elite specs trumps high skill ones. No thanks.