Signet of Vampirism Buff.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That goes for any heal skill ... if you don't get hit, your need to heal goes down, regardless of what heal you use. In the case where you aren't getting hit, all the heal skills are effectively the same because you don't need healing. Clearly, if we are talking about the effectiveness of heals, we are talking about situations where healing is beneficial.

 

What he meant was probably that the value of the passive healing of signet of vampirism goes down when there is a need to recover/catch your breath in the middle of a fight. Which is the same flaw as for life siphon effects in general, you need to constantly be aggressive and in combat for them to proc, while a passive healing effect that does not need any trigger will proc regularly without fail.

 

Taking a step back to avoid the fight for a few second and recover throught passive regen is a very common thing in the game and in this case, signet of vampirism is the worst kind of passive healing.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> **Taking a step back to avoid the fight for a few second and recover** throught passive regen is a very common thing in the game and in this case, signet of vampirism is the worst kind of passive healing.

Necros can't do that anyway. It can heal in Shroud while the HP pool is protected from further dropping. That's the Necro's way of recovering. And traited it can heal you up to 100% in one Shroud uptime while you don't even need to stop attacking.

 

The Warrior signet is desinged around low cooldown disengages on GS and tons of damage negating skills like Endure Pain, Berserker Stance or blocks.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> To quote myself from a similar thread earlier this year:

>

> > For some data....

> >

> > In an OW fight w/3 mobs just now I was passive healed 22 times in a minute by Signet of Vampirism for 555-584 per occurrence. 555 * 22 = 12,210 hp/min.

> >

> > By contrast, Consume Conditions is 5,674 (+ 767 per condi) with a 30s CD. In this case, SoV is equal or superior to CC. Upside was that this was entirely passive, and I didn't even touch the ~5K active initial heal; downside is it doesn't help with condition removal.

> >

> > In total, for one minute:

> >

> > Signet of Vampirism 555-584 per occurrence. 555 * 22 = 12,210

> > Vampiric Strikes healed 95 times for 41, so 95 * 41 = 3,895

> > Vampiric Rituals w/Well of Suffering added 20 * 225 = 4,500

> > Life Siphon (Dagger2) 8 * 494 = 3,952

> > Total passive healing for 1 minute: 24,557

> > This is with HP of 325/445 (due to weapons difference - most of fight was at 325).

> > Build:

> > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRQQRAnY4Yn0ICN2gl2Au0A0uhjchaOEj9UQLj1oZhBQDkAA-jRiEwACViFw0XOlHk0IwS9nCKBBYGYj+gT7PQKg8UGB-e

>

> In this example, SoV was superior Consume Conditions. If the SoV CD was cut in half to 0.5sec then it could be quite OP.

>

> SoV is a good choice for melee-range play, but a poor choice for ranged/kiting play.

>

 

Its a good choice for anything thats not condition heavy ranged or kite hardly matters.

Thats the only time a signet build kind of gets screwed with necro assuming you are stupid like me and cut plage for spite cause you want ALL THE POWER IN THE WORLD ok but no really the distance game hardly matters

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > That goes for any heal skill ... if you don't get hit, your need to heal goes down, regardless of what heal you use. In the case where you aren't getting hit, all the heal skills are effectively the same because you don't need healing. Clearly, if we are talking about the effectiveness of heals, we are talking about situations where healing is beneficial.

>

> What he meant was probably that the value of the passive healing of signet of vampirism goes down when there is a need to recover/catch your breath in the middle of a fight. Which is the same flaw as for life siphon effects in general, you need to constantly be aggressive and in combat for them to proc, while a passive healing effect that does not need any trigger will proc regularly without fail.

>

> Taking a step back to avoid the fight for a few second and recover throught passive regen is a very common thing in the game and in this case, signet of vampirism is the worst kind of passive healing.

 

To be fair this is a general no no for most necro playstyles anyways. Because our cooldowns are often so much higher than other professions you ideally want to close the fight quickly or force you foe to leave you for got or at least to the extent combat resets.

In most cases the longer a fight drags on the less likely a necro is to survive it. Unless you build like the uber heal tank which then wont kill anything and you will still die at some point but i mean :astonished:

 

Necro really does not have any good passive tools that work positively from taking a short retreat from combat when you think about it. Even shroud is flawed by this its just wasting life force if you do. hmmmmmm... *critical thinking*

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I don't see range as a differentiator here. Why is it a poor choice for ranged/kiting? I works the same way regardless of who is ranged.

>

> Because it is triggered by being hit, so effective kiting reduces the number of hits, hence number of heals.

 

Just because some one kites does not mean they cant hit you wile doing so ;) there are several professions that often throw chip damage at you while kiting if not center around doing most of their damage while kiting. So i dont agree.

[Fireline.6093]

Why not remove the internal Cooldown completely and replace it with a proc limit? Start with 10 proc charges and recharge 1 proc every 2 seconds or 1 second while in shroud?

This would save a Necro from a single burst, but not a multiburst.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Fireline.6093" said:

> Why not remove the internal Cooldown completely and replace it with a proc limit? Start with 10 proc charges and recharge 1 proc every 2 seconds or 1 second while in shroud?

> This would save a Necro from a single burst, but not a multiburst.

 

The thing is a passive heal should not save you from a burst. Ideally avoiding burst should be an active thing not a passive one. In this case you can dodge the burst or go into shroud to soak the burst which requires activity from the players part.

 

your idea is not bad but the goal behind it is a bit misplaced. The signet is designed to give you overall more effective health in a combat situation and it does that based on how many hits you take before you use it or while in shroud if traited. It might not seem like much and the hits you take for 2k make the 400 ish heal not seem like much but in combat over 20ish seconds if you only took 10 hits thats effectively 4000 hp that you otherwise would not have had. You just dont see this hp go into your pool because most hits dealt to you are for more than 400 ish hp it restores. It might not seem like much in the moment but assuming you didnt get hit with a 1 shot burst build the signet provides a rather large boost to total effective hp.

 

And no matter how they buff its signet you wont survive under 1 shot burst situations the damage dealt is simply too high.

 

[Phyrak.7260]

Why not have it as a 240-300 range self aoe that siphons per 0.5/1 second?

 

Rather than it being reactionary, it would be more consistent with the warrior signet

 

In turn it would gain additional synergy with Vampiric Presence due to base functionality

 

The active would still be the same but would make the passive of the signet far more useful in healing and aiding aggressive play in combat to the life leeching presence.

 

Anyhow, just some thoughts

[Obtena.7952]

Honestly, I don't think it's going to get better than it is. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets negative attention because if you know how to you use it and build around it, it's one of the best heals in the game.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I don't see range as a differentiator here. Why is it a poor choice for ranged/kiting? I works the same way regardless of who is ranged.

> >

> > Because it is triggered by being hit, so effective kiting reduces the number of hits, hence number of heals.

>

> Just because some one kites does not mean they cant hit you wile doing so ;) there are several professions that often throw chip damage at you while kiting if not center around doing most of their damage while kiting. So i dont agree.

 

SoV will trigger on any kind of hit, will it not? CC and AoE conditions should trigger it and SoV may very well give a net-positive heal if the "hit" does not have much actual damage.

 

A cleric bunker build, for example, using Spite, Death Magic, and Blood Magic could have a lot of sustain. It will not be meta due to lack of damage and group support but that should be expected. A Spite/DM/Reaper-tough for open world event chains with lots of mob deaths could be playable, too, using some Signets even if not meta.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Honestly, I don't think it's going to get better than it is. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets negative attention because if you know how to you use it and build around it, it's one of the best heals in the game.

 

I agree with this some one suggested it to me recently and ive been using it for the past 3 week almost its pretty good when built and played around properly. The only instance of when it failed hard with me is against strong condition heavy foes. (which was my fault as i opted for signet of spite over plauge signet in a signet build.) BUT its still pretty darn solid if you know how to make the most of it. Its likely stronger than the base "Blood well heal maybe even stronger than the blood well heal when traited in the instance you dont stand in the well for its full duration.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I don't see range as a differentiator here. Why is it a poor choice for ranged/kiting? I works the same way regardless of who is ranged.

> > >

> > > Because it is triggered by being hit, so effective kiting reduces the number of hits, hence number of heals.

> >

> > Just because some one kites does not mean they cant hit you wile doing so ;) there are several professions that often throw chip damage at you while kiting if not center around doing most of their damage while kiting. So i dont agree.

>

> SoV will trigger on any kind of hit, will it not? CC and AoE conditions should trigger it and SoV may very well give a net-positive heal if the "hit" does not have much actual damage.

>

> A cleric bunker build, for example, using Spite, Death Magic, and Blood Magic could have a lot of sustain. It will not be meta due to lack of damage and group support but that should be expected. A Spite/DM/Reaper-tough for open world event chains with lots of mob deaths could be playable, too, using some Signets even if not meta.

 

hmm i kind of dont agree the signet is countered by condition damage while it will trigger on hits that apply a condition it will not trigger on condition ticks over time. Although if you want interesting you could opt to run a condition build yourself and take parasitic contagion throw some condi's back at your foes and get healing from the signet and your own condition ticks.

 

You are correct it often does grant positive healing though under some of the current examples and most common examples

- Mesmer clones attacking you for almost no damage

- Warriors throwing ranged attacks at you such as axe toss and greatsword toss (if the blows glance)

- Ranger pets that dont hit particular hard (even more so if they are under weakness

- other necro chip damage such as locust swarm hits

 

Ideally though it doe work pretty good if it needed any buff it would be with its cast time and mabe its base cooldown just ever so slightly or change to how the active portion works. (its often not so good when you mark a foe and all the stacks get shred through in an instant xD I think maybe in pve there simply should not be a stack limit. If that was the case it might actually be well proper for some sub support.

 

For a long time i had the idea that the signet should trigger when you hit some one not when they hit you but honestly this signet has healed me so much while i was under stun in shroud or something and saved me so many times from near death that i really dont care to think of it that way anymore. If it did work that way it would likely be as weak as the thief healing signet.

[Anchoku.8142]

Necro has ways to counter condition damage so SoV does not need to counter DOT effects. However, it is rare to get a condition from a skill without any direct damage applied at the same time.

 

War Horn's Wail of Doom is one of those rare stun skills without damage but most have a damage component to proc SoV's passive heal.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Necro has ways to counter condition damage so SoV does not need to counter DOT effects. However, it is rare to get a condition from a skill without any direct damage applied at the same time.

>

> War Horn's Wail of Doom is one of those rare stun skills without damage but most have a damage component to proc SoV's passive heal.

 

To be honest it might still proc the signet it would need to be tested. Wail of doom will proc life stealing properties from vampiric and vampiric aura.

It does kind of half heartedly deliver a strike.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Signet of Vampirism is just a way to add another Vampiric Presence for minor group dps support.

>

> I never think of SoV as a heal. I think of it as something to slot when I do not need a heal because other players are keeping me topped off. Then I am free to use it whenever it is off CD for the (very) minor dps buff.

 

this

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > It heals you for more than the warrior heal naturally and scales much harder with healing power. The only trade off is that it requires you to get hit. Ideally it would be nicer every .05 seconds but the heal amount would need to be reduced as well.

> > Keep in mind Scholars are not Soldiers ant further sustain should probably be done via Death magic changes. Not everything needs to be equal to one another even more so when they work under different mechanics.

> >

>

> Nope

> Vamp Sig needs both a ICD reduction and a large healing increase in order for it to even be functional as a healing skill, let alone be comparable to Warrior's Healing signet

>

> You see Vamp Sig only heals when hit, and literally every hit is going to massively outscale the paltry 500 healing of vamp sig. This means that vamp sig is functionally incapable of keeping you alive and is really just the signet of (mildly) delayed dying. Warrior's signet heals constantly even when not being hit, such as when the warrior is blocking, evading, kiting, or endure paining. This means that warrior's heal sig is capable of keeping the warrior alive so long as the warrior is reasonably adept at avoiding hits.

>

> For vamp sig to be useful, the passive needs to get bumped to at least 1k healing baseline, and the active skill needs a combination of a cast time reduction and cooldown reduction

 

and this.

Useful is only active part, get 300HP back while you get 8k hit is meh. Its for group support and dmg increase/heal fort party. Cast time could be lower CD is kinda OK.

Passive part will be hard to balance. You add 1k for hit and PvE became meme.

[Anchoku.8142]

As a side note, Spiteful Renewal for condi-cleanse can be useful for heals besides Consume Conditions in some environments but SoV does not benefit from it as much under the new Signets of Suffering as it did with the flat 20% CD reduction.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> As a side note, Spiteful Renewal for condi-cleanse can be useful for heals besides Consume Conditions in some environments but SoV does not benefit from it as much under the new Signets of Suffering as it did with the flat 20% CD reduction.

 

Actually, spiteful renewal is awesome together with consume conditions. Especially for condition heavy enemies.

 

First consume will get rid of all conditions, and heal for a great amount, then apply vulnerability.

After that, spiteful renewal triggers, removing the vulnerability and giving another pretty decent heal.

 

So it can be

 

5240 healing from consume

+724 per condition on you (maximum of 12 conditions converted as you cannot use your heal while being feared or taunted. So 12x724=8668 maximum healing)

+961 heal from the trait

So it's overall maximum heal is 14889 heal.

Minimum would be 6201heal.