Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Toron.4856" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > > .

> > > > >

> > > > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> > > >

> > > > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> > > >

> > > > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> > > >

> > > > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

> > >

> > > I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

> > >

> > > Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

> > >

> > > EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

> >

> > I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

> >

> > So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

>

> Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed

> Remove dodging while stunned

> Remove attacking while dodging

>

 

This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:

Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

 

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > .

> > > >

> > > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> > >

> > > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> > >

> > > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> > >

> > > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

> >

> > I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^

>

> While I can't speak for spellbreaker, holo really can't disengage from fights like most other classes. It lacks teleports, and the only true "disengage" it can carry is stealth.

 

I usually count Elixir S for that as well. I mainly used it as a disengage tool, and you have perma swiftness and that holo leap. Which is no teleport of course - which can be good and bad both. Condis might run out during Elixir and could kill you after a teleport. On the other hand, if you don't manage do LoS or something, Elixir is pointless. I think condi mirage as more mobility/disengage capabilities than both (portal at the very least), so let's not go astray in this thread. :smile:

[jportell.2197]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

 

> This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:

> Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

>

 

 

I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

 

The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

>

> > This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:

> > Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

> >

>

>

> I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

>

> The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

 

Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

 

Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

[jportell.2197]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> >

> > > This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:

> > > Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

> > >

> >

> >

> > I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

> >

> > The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

>

> Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

>

> Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

 

Because they will do what they always do. And I honestly think that making mirage cloak unusable while stunned would require too much work on their part

[jportell.2197]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > >

> > > > This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:

> > > > Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

> > >

> > > The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

> >

> > Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

> >

> > Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

>

> Because they will do what they always do. And I honestly think that making mirage cloak unusable while stunned would require too much work on their part

 

I remember vanilla a warrior complaining about phase retreat. And thank God nothing came of that

[Fearless.3569]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Fearless.3569" said:

> > > @"MikeL.8260" said:

> > > First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.

> > > As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

> >

> > I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

>

> Boonbeast would definitely help.

 

Ok thanks for the advice. I guess I'll have to learn another build. But hopefully my woes end.

[bigo.9037]

you> @"Fearless.3569" said:

> > @"MikeL.8260" said:

> > First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.

> > As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

>

> I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

 

there are a couple of things I'd like to say.

1, you don't need to swap to boonbeast build. although it is technically better for dueling on sidenodes, you don't have to. you can win vs mirage with longbow and gs. you have to use gs about 70% of the time. get you a build that has good condition cleanses, dmg, ( sicem is useless for the most part btw) and uses the soulbeast trait that decreases condition dmg while you have protection. what you wanna do is evade the axe burst, cleave clones and the mesmer with aoe pressure from WI, maul, auto attack on GS, Barrage on LB. you have the tools to pressure them off the point, but the problem is they can evade while attacking so watch out for that. when you cast heal with the right build they will be slowed and crippled. use this to your advantage.

 

there are lots of things you can do to win however;

2, you are new. when you start, there will be many things that seem impossible or "OP" to you. especially when you start playing ranked and fight vs strong players. they pull moves and combos and tricks new players can't comprehend yet. it takes time to learn a game as complex as gw2.

[otto.5684]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> The problem is and always has been that the developers seem to keep balancing around an overbuffed baseline for condition damage because they forgot it has the benefit of ignoring armor. I've been calling this out for years. Unbelievable there are still so many issues.

>

> Condi needs to be nerfed virtually across the board, and condi removal just needs to basically be removed. The condi removal counterplay meta is stupid.

 

I think this design would have been better as a starting point. Instead of having condi damage and power damage there is only one source of damage modifier, where damage over time is not huge, requires precision and ferocity and cannot be removed.

 

The problem is we are way too invested in the current system and it works as is.

 

Also, condi damage overall, is performing very poorly. Beside mirage and scourge there are not any viable condi builds.

[Mathias.9657]

Chemotherapy seems to be pretty effective against cancer, so try that.

[Mathias.9657]

I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously. Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

[otto.5684]

> @"Fearless.3569" said:

> First up I want to start out as I'm new to the game. I plays Ranger I'm thinking it's going to be my main. I'm trying to get into PvP over here. I'm rank 19 almost to rank 20 to start doing Ranked matches.

> So now to the point. In matches I'm finding fighting against Mirages a impossible battle so far. Much of it is due to my skills. Yes I know. However I must ask the players. How do yall counter and kill Mirages?

>

> They seem to have every thing from stealth, to damage that I can't keep up with, while being super tanky. Most of my attack don't connect. And when that do connect it's like I'm hitting a brick wall. It's seems that I can't have enough dodges or cleanses to deal with their damage. And after all of that if I start getting them low they just disappear.

>

> Please help me!

>

 

Condi removal + AOE damage + stability. I do not know what class are you playing, but guardians and engi should have the upper hand.

 

As long as you keep the pressure on to destroy clones, you could win with any class against Condi Mirage, but not all classes have the tools necessary for that.

[Gandrogh.1530]

make one, lvl up 2, go to mist, tag to unranked. also look at builds on metabattle. watch for role and read what are is pro/cons. It will take you 15min, you'll get fun and knowledge (=power, and there is no knlowledge stat in your amu). A lot of people already said this

[Ario.8964]

A good deal of it depends on your matchup but these are some of the general rules I use for fighting condi mirage and it's helped me be pretty successful:

1) When they stealth, count to 3 and then dodge, they are most likely trying a massive condi burst (95% of players playing this build are mechanically meh and won't think to shift around their playstyle so you will see this opener almost every fight) and dodging it will let you avoid most of their damage while putting the player in a relly bad position

2) The best time to cc them is when they use the axe whirl skill

3) If you play something like holo, do static discharge bursts (or any other large on demand burst) during all their animation locks to punish them

4) I find that if you get hit with a burst it's much easier to survive if you kite and start using LoS to force the mes to get in a more confined space where you can dump damage on him. Know that because they have superior mobility, most mirages will not hesitate to chase because they assume they can catch you quickly and pull off a kill. If you can get them to tunnel vision the kill, you can get a very strong bait play out of it.

5) Manage your condi removal very sparingly, if you blow everything for each little condi you see, you'll be out of cd's before you get a chance to hit the mes. It will drive you crazy but sometimes you gotta get used to letting the condis tick if it saves your cds for a better time.

6) Do your damage in bursts, mirage has a ton of evasion and invuln to use so trying to do constant damage can be very rough outside of things like weaver that can put out consistent pressure while evading

 

Hope those have been helpful, let me know if there's anything else you want to know.

[Fearless.3569]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> A good deal of it depends on your matchup but these are some of the general rules I use for fighting condi mirage and it's helped me be pretty successful:

> 1) When they stealth, count to 3 and then dodge, they are most likely trying a massive condi burst (95% of players playing this build are mechanically meh and won't think to shift around their playstyle so you will see this opener almost every fight) and dodging it will let you avoid most of their damage while putting the player in a relly bad position

> 2) The best time to cc them is when they use the axe whirl skill

> 3) If you play something like holo, do static discharge bursts (or any other large on demand burst) during all their animation locks to punish them

> 4) I find that if you get hit with a burst it's much easier to survive if you kite and start using LoS to force the mes to get in a more confined space where you can dump damage on him. Know that because they have superior mobility, most mirages will not hesitate to chase because they assume they can catch you quickly and pull off a kill. If you can get them to tunnel vision the kill, you can get a very strong bait play out of it.

> 5) Manage your condi removal very sparingly, if you blow everything for each little condi you see, you'll be out of cd's before you get a chance to hit the mes. It will drive you crazy but sometimes you gotta get used to letting the condis tick if it saves your cds for a better time.

> 6) Do your damage in bursts, mirage has a ton of evasion and invuln to use so trying to do constant damage can be very rough outside of things like weaver that can put out consistent pressure while evading

>

> Hope those have been helpful, let me know if there's anything else you want to know.

 

Thank you for the advice! i will put it to good use.

[breno.5423]

Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

 

If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

[otto.5684]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously. Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

 

Fine, lets do that and remove stealth, CC, condi damage, dodges, invulnerability, blocks, boons, deliberating condis and anything that slightly requires the player to do more than AA.

 

That will be awesome. I suggest we change the game name too from GW2 to Pac-Man.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"breno.5423" said:

> Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

> Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

>

> If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

[breno.5423]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"breno.5423" said:

> > Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

> > Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

> >

> > If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

> So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

 

Read my text again.

If you are "smart", you will understand.

[voltaicbore.8012]

Ario's advice to dodge just as you think the big stealth burst is coming is key advice, and helps me secure the home node when I'm capping it alone at the outset of the match and get a mirage visitor.

 

I run LB + sw/wh soulbeast, with Berserker amulet. It was a big adjustment for me to move to this build after having run bunker druid for so long, and it was initially hard not to fall back on blocks and Signet of Stone and staff 3 to relieve pressure. However, all my sustain currently comes from evades, positioning, and regen (with the occasional burst heal from merging with Jacaranda), which means I have a better chance of avoiding the condi unload mirages depend on, instead of just letting confusion and torment cut right through Signet of Stone. I still struggle with the temptation to remain on point 100% of the time, but when I play right I'm dancing on and off point, making use of much more of the battle space available.

 

If you want to retain longbow in your quest to stand up to mirages, I find it most helpful to pop stability and drop LB 5 around the moment when clones are spawn in the rotation. If I still get shattered and condi bursted through the aoe field and my own dodges, I pop Moa stance, Dolyak stance, and merge into Jacaranda for the f3 heal + resistance. Also remember that LB 5 applies cripple, so unless you stand still next to the clones it's pretty much impossible for them to reach you through the field. So that leaves me protected from condi for a few seconds, pretty much at full health, and if I'm lucky enough to land a few hits on the unstealthed mirage, that often discourages the mirage as I hit pretty hard. I'm also very vigilant about not unloading my full LB 2 into reflect, and am perfectly willing to give it up via weapon swap the moment I see Distortion come up. I rarely land an outright kill in this scenario unless the mirage really messes something up, but many mirages are looking for an easy kill and are dismayed that my glassy build can take what they dish out, if I do it right.

 

I'm only plat 1 (consistently around the 1540-1560 range) so I'm not sure this would work that well higher up in the ranks. For the deadliest condi mirages, the solution is just to run. I find that condi mirages often don't have the ability to chase me down if I apply that stability+resistance kit as I am disengaging, so I've denied them the kill, and am well on the way to a full reset so I can choose to go back and contest the mirage (usually a bad idea) or support my team elsewhere (what I do most of the time).

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then****_ invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously._**** Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

 

Then neither should you.

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"breno.5423" said:

> Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

> Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

>

> If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

 

A lot of CC?

This the most played mesmer build currently : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

Illuminate me on where do you see a lot CC...because besides Diversion,Chaos Storm and Daze of Phantasmal Mage I dont see any more CC.

Sword/Pistol will offer more CC and the mobility you speak of but at the cost of conditions.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"breno.5423" said:

> > @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > > @"breno.5423" said:

> > > Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

> > > Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

> > >

> > > If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

> > So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

>

> Read my text again.

> If you are "smart", you will understand.

 

actually excuse me for not reading properly :disappointed:

lack of sleep make me skip lots of stuff it seems

but what is cc spam? have you ever seen holo cc?

[breno.5423]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"breno.5423" said:

> > Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.

> > Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

> >

> > If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

>

> A lot of CC?

> This the most played mesmer build currently : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

> Illuminate me on where do you see a lot CC...because besides Diversion,Chaos Storm and Daze of Phantasmal Mage I dont see any more CC.

> Sword/Pistol will offer more CC and the mobility you speak of but at the cost of conditions.

 

If you are chrono for example, you may perma CC somebody with shield + "F3" + gravity well 2x.

Staff ones may perma daze 4ever as well.

 

The worse is that F3 has no cast or animation, what make it even stronger than thief's steal.

[viquing.8254]

>If you are chrono for example, you may perma CC somebody with shield + "F3" + gravity well 2x.

You can't because every meta builds have something to go out of CC

 

>Staff ones may perma daze 4ever as well.

Yes, best CC of the game.

 

>The worse is that F3 has no cast or animation, what make it even stronger than thief's steal.

Then it's not a problem if we exchange them ?

 

Not to say that near every meta builds have hudge amount of CC today.

[breno.5423]

Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

 

And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.