What's with those core guardians?

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> >

> > > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

> >

> > How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> > GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

> >

> >

>

> There is a misunderstanding of one shot is. It usually does not mean being literal (and I honestly prefer in under 1 sec). The ideas is we do not want any build capable to dishing 15-20k damage in under 1 sec, regardless of the setup, cuz the setup is not always oblivious and much of the time is not interuptable.

U mean...this guardians that can get target from teammate and jump on you through walls that they never expect to get erased instant?

Nerf to hell this retal trait to 25% so they wont be able to run valkyrie / nerf retal that hard to not be able to maintain permanent / add JI LoS check

I dont mean evertyhing at once , pick 1 :)

> @"kipthelip.5802" said:

> My duels versus Holos and Spell Breakers are pretty comical if I don't dodge or use my 4 seconds of stability at the right time. :(

You have 3 breakstuns and invul elite that recharge f3 ,what is your problem again ? (if trust people that test matchups core guardian favored against holo , cant be sure about it )

> Also, you pay a lot for speed on core guardian the movement skills it has are for chasing not running away and you have to use a 25% run speed rune and they are all mediocre. Its much harder to disengage from a minus situation or a duel gone bad then some other classes.

How is lynx a bad rune? Boost burn damage/power/movement . Target their teammates and use sword2/ji to get away if possible

 

[madamred.1463]

it has wonderful sustain/ damage whats not to like

[otto.5684]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > >

> > > > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > > > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

> > >

> > > How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> > > GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > There is a misunderstanding of one shot is. It usually does not mean being literal (and I honestly prefer in under 1 sec). The ideas is we do not want any build capable to dishing 15-20k damage in under 1 sec, regardless of the setup, cuz the setup is not always oblivious and much of the time is not interuptable.

> U mean...this guardians that can get target from teammate and jump on you through walls that they never expect to get erased instant?

> Nerf to hell this retal trait to 25% so they wont be able to run valkyrie / nerf retal that hard to not be able to maintain permanent / add JI LoS check

> I dont mean evertyhing at once , pick 1 :)

> > @"kipthelip.5802" said:

> > My duels versus Holos and Spell Breakers are pretty comical if I don't dodge or use my 4 seconds of stability at the right time. :(

> You have 3 breakstuns and invul elite that recharge f3 ,what is your problem again ? (if trust people that test matchups core guardian favored against holo , cant be sure about it )

> > Also, you pay a lot for speed on core guardian the movement skills it has are for chasing not running away and you have to use a 25% run speed rune and they are all mediocre. Its much harder to disengage from a minus situation or a duel gone bad then some other classes.

> How is lynx a bad rune? Boost burn damage/power/movement . Target their teammates and use sword2/ji to get away if possible

>

 

There is so much misinformation here. Way too much. Some snippets:

 

1. I have heard of the mythical 15-20K guardian spike. Since core guardian was a thing, a bit over year ago, I have not seem this happen once. NOT ONCE in close to 1K sPvP games.

2. Lynx is a terrible rune. I am not aware of any other sPvP build, on any class, that uses it. And the only reason is it used is for the movement speed. Compare this to leadership, strength or scholar. These runes are better in every possible way for core guardian, but you cannot use them due to the lack of movement speed. Guardian is the only class that has this issue.

3. Since you are suggesting gutting retaliation to death. Please go play with marauder amulet and do not use the retaliation traits then tell me how useful guardian damage is (it is a tier below non-existent).

 

If you are struggling so much against core guardian with hammer and using JI (which is really a mediocre core guardian build), how do manage to fight Holos or SB?! I am serious.

 

For more informed player, one major weakness that core guardian has compared to other bruiser builds is lack of CC. Just compare core guardian with meta bruiser builds:

 

Holo

Reaper

SB

 

All these have multiple CCs, and some that can even be chained. Also, core guardian is weak against focus fire. Not as terrible as reaper, but surely has very limited tools in that respect.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

It's same thing all over again certain classes get singled out by a small but vocal group players screaming about it being overpowered which then often gets nerfed into the ground while other classes that by comparison are even more overpowered are either ignored or as ridiculous as it sounds get buffed even more. To say that the Guardian is overpowered when you compare it Holosmith, Soulbeast, Mirage etc is just laughable , I personally assume that this is a case of a player running one of those monsters and they finally ran into a couple Guardians that were a much better playerd than they were and they have just have to cry foul, it's not a news flash it happens ever season to some class.

[kasoki.5180]

As someone who plays GS+JI guardian I completely agree that this sort of things should be nerfed.

 

The problem isn't the guardian itself its the game design. In a PvP game thats 5v5 removing one enemy player from the board is great advantage. JI Guardian by itself isn't really even that strong but GS+JI that's 5 seconds late to the fight means a world of difference. JI Guardian that comes from outside your line of sight is a possible game changer. And all of that with literally zero effort. It wouldn't be a problem if it actually took some preparation and skill to pull this off, but it doesnt. There is a clear disproportionality between skill needed and result achieved.

 

Not to mention how its lamest thing possible when paired up with classes that can grant stealth.

 

Also, the fact that there are other broken and imbalanced builds doesn't suddenly make this ok. Two wrongs absolutely don't make a right

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

Please read thru this thread, link is below they go thru at length all of the different builds on different classes that have one hit kill build options

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56519/1-hit-kill-professions-for-wvw

[yLoon.5289]

What's wrong with many people using core guard build? The more time you spent on fighting with them, It gives you more experience on how to counter them. (Which is hilariously simple to counter). I would be much more alert to build that is never been used before. So what's with you on this post? lol

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

Unfortunately its a common failing of many people in that alot of them respond in such a way when things go against them that instead of admitting to the possibility that they are the problem ( be it poor judgement or need to practice etc) they immediately default to the case something other than me is wrong or broken. You see it more and more over years anymore

[cat.8975]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> Not going to defend core guard, but they only have one true "one-hit KO" and it has a 4 second tell on it. I agree that they should be nerfed, so I'll list some ideas I like that have been suggested:

>

> * Nerf glacial heart's (hammer trait) damage heavily. Lower the icd from 10s to 5s, make it 100% chance on critical up from 50%. This shifts the focus of the trait from burst damage to chill application allowing a hammer guard to better stay on their target. This is Vallun's idea, and a good one at that.

> * Nerf the extra crit % chance that Righteous Instincts grants from 50% to either 30% or 40%. This means even less sustain from core guard if they want to maintain a high crit % chance.

> * Nerf the damage of Shield of Wrath's explosion to deal around the same damage of Mighty Blow. This would be something like a 10-20% damage nerf. If they did this, I'd want the cooldown lowered as well.

 

Glacial Heart already does pretty minimal damage (relatively), though if you wanted to lower the ICD for more chill, then yes, cut the coefficient down accordingly.

 

Nerfing RI will just push everyone to Mara amulet, at the cost of 340 vit, 340 fero, and 150 power. This would likely kill the build without any compensatory buffs.

 

Shield of Wrath only does ~16.88% more damage than Mighty Blow. When you consider the long tell, the long ICD, and the ability to counterplay it (literally just hit them 3-5 times), it's fine in its current state. If you want to reduce the damage, then lower the CD as well.

 

The people whining about core hammer guard are the same people that whined about DH traps. It's a noob-stomping build, with little-to-no viability in the upper ranks. Sure, you'll have a few oddballs that stick to it and achieve some success, but those players would be much better off learning another spec/class at that point. All "one shot" builds are like this to an extent, in that they prey on inexperienced players, but the veterans know exactly how easy it is to dismantle them.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"cat.8975" said:

 

> The people whining about core hammer guard are the same people that whined about DH traps. It's a noob-stomping build, with little-to-no viability in the upper ranks. Sure, you'll have a few oddballs that stick to it and achieve some success, but those players would be much better off learning another spec/class at that point. All "one shot" builds are like this to an extent, in that they prey on inexperienced players, but the veterans know exactly how easy it is to dismantle them.

 

Problem with these kind of builds is completely contextual. If you are mid fight and somebody does this to you from stealth or coming from behind you will die, no matter how pro or noob you are. These kind of builds are never a problem if you are aware that the player is there or you can keep an eye on them

[Opopanax.1803]

__> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"cat.8975" said:

>

> > The people whining about core hammer guard are the same people that whined about DH traps. It's a noob-stomping build, with little-to-no viability in the upper ranks. Sure, you'll have a few oddballs that stick to it and achieve some success, but those players would be much better off learning another spec/class at that point. All "one shot" builds are like this to an extent, in that they prey on inexperienced players, but the veterans know exactly how easy it is to dismantle them.

>

> Problem with these kind of builds is completely contextual. If you are mid fight and somebody does this to you from stealth or coming from behind you will die, no matter how pro or noob you are. These kind of builds are never a problem if you are aware that the player is there or you can keep an eye on them

 

So are you saying that because you can get jumped from behind and lose in an ambush scenario the build should be nerfed? I can't quite tell what you are implying in this post.

[otto.5684]

> @"cat.8975" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > Not going to defend core guard, but they only have one true "one-hit KO" and it has a 4 second tell on it. I agree that they should be nerfed, so I'll list some ideas I like that have been suggested:

> >

> > * Nerf glacial heart's (hammer trait) damage heavily. Lower the icd from 10s to 5s, make it 100% chance on critical up from 50%. This shifts the focus of the trait from burst damage to chill application allowing a hammer guard to better stay on their target. This is Vallun's idea, and a good one at that.

> > * Nerf the extra crit % chance that Righteous Instincts grants from 50% to either 30% or 40%. This means even less sustain from core guard if they want to maintain a high crit % chance.

> > * Nerf the damage of Shield of Wrath's explosion to deal around the same damage of Mighty Blow. This would be something like a 10-20% damage nerf. If they did this, I'd want the cooldown lowered as well.

>

> Glacial Heart already does pretty minimal damage (relatively), though if you wanted to lower the ICD for more chill, then yes, cut the coefficient down accordingly.

>

> Nerfing RI will just push everyone to Mara amulet, at the cost of 340 vit, 340 fero, and 150 power. This would likely kill the build without any compensatory buffs.

>

> Shield of Wrath only does ~16.88% more damage than Mighty Blow. When you consider the long tell, the long ICD, and the ability to counterplay it (literally just hit them 3-5 times), it's fine in its current state. If you want to reduce the damage, then lower the CD as well.

>

> The people whining about core hammer guard are the same people that whined about DH traps. It's a noob-stomping build, with little-to-no viability in the upper ranks. Sure, you'll have a few oddballs that stick to it and achieve some success, but those players would be much better off learning another spec/class at that point. All "one shot" builds are like this to an extent, in that they prey on inexperienced players, but the veterans know exactly how easy it is to dismantle them.

 

I suggested before that glacial heart have its ICD cut in half to 5 secs in PvE. It can easily proc for 2k in PvE, so it is not bad by any means.

 

Overall core guardian using GS is a good build. Hammer? Meh. Noob crusher build with not more into it than that.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> __> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"cat.8975" said:

> >

> > > The people whining about core hammer guard are the same people that whined about DH traps. It's a noob-stomping build, with little-to-no viability in the upper ranks. Sure, you'll have a few oddballs that stick to it and achieve some success, but those players would be much better off learning another spec/class at that point. All "one shot" builds are like this to an extent, in that they prey on inexperienced players, but the veterans know exactly how easy it is to dismantle them.

> >

> > Problem with these kind of builds is completely contextual. If you are mid fight and somebody does this to you from stealth or coming from behind you will die, no matter how pro or noob you are. These kind of builds are never a problem if you are aware that the player is there or you can keep an eye on them

>

> So are you saying that because you can get jumped from behind and lose in an ambush scenario the build should be nerfed? I can't quite tell what you are implying in this post.

 

What I'm implying is that "oh its easy build to counter" argument doesn't hold merit because that's not what the problem is or better yet, that's not why this build is problematic.

 

And yes, in a game that only has 5v5 scenarios, an "ambush" combo that takes zero skills and afk brain should be nerfed. There is a very clear disproportionality from effort needed to the result achieved. Anyone who ever played this build knows this.

[Opopanax.1803]

Hmm, seems like a strange point with all of the other classes that can ambush with ease.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

Just to be clear are you implying that ALL of the other other ambush builds for ALL the other classes need to be Nerfed or removed because that pretty much wipes out the Thief class almost entirely and it severely limits ALOT of other classes. Just making sure that nobody is reading beyond what you are actually saying here. Because if that is your argument it sounds an awful lot like what some people have said before which was the Class "X" is so overpowered (because I can't beat it) so it should be nerfed/deleted. Oh and on your zero skill comment why don't you see what happens when you play that build against more skilled players , the truth is they will take you down without even trying. What you constantly fail to appreciate is every class has a pseudo low skilled player killer build and as every player becomes more skilled in their class those previous builds now become more of an easy kill for the more skilled player. Every class and every build has a counter, you may have exploits for a short time but they generally don't last anytime this build has been around a very long time and there are a number of counters but to argue that ambush or stealth is unfair and should be changed or fully removed is totally beyond any reasonable expectation.

[Fashion Mage.3712]

ITT: "UMMM, HOW DARE A CORE CLASS BE VIABLE???"

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

ROFL thank you Fashion Mage that pretty much sums it up

[kasoki.5180]

> @"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

> Just to be clear are you implying that ALL of the other other ambush builds for ALL the other classes need to be Nerfed or removed because that pretty much wipes out the Thief class almost entirely and it severely limits ALOT of other classes.

 

Thanks for jumping the gun and taking my view point to the most extreme. I would honestly like if those "ambush" builds were nerfed, and no that doesnt mean that thief would get destroyed. World isn't black or white, either or. I have no problem with having a class thats designed and intended as an ambush class as these "rogue" acrhetypes usually are in video games. That doesn't mean that other classes need to have that capacity or capability

 

> @"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

> Just making sure that nobody is reading beyond what you are actually saying here. Because if that is your argument it sounds an awful lot like what some people have said before which was the Class "X" is so overpowered (because I can't beat it) so it should be nerfed/deleted.

 

Ehm, what now? I have explicitly stated that I personally play GS variant of this build. So no, I am definitely not saying this because I cant beat it. And as I have stated before "not being able to beat it" is not what the problem is. Its not a hard build to beat for more experience players. But that's not what the issue with these kind of builds is.

 

> @"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

> Oh and on your zero skill comment why don't you see what happens when you play that build against more skilled players , the truth is they will take you down without even trying.

 

Again, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. I have said that this build takes zero skill, and then you say how more experienced player will take you down if you play this build. How is that a counterargument to anything I am saying? As a matter of fact I have quite explicitly stated that these kind of builds are not problematic if you are aware of situation and the player present infront(?) of you

(on a side note, this build can actually be used efficiently against more skilled players)

 

I think you should re-read my original comments again because you have largely twisted what I was saying.