Six years and the Necromancer is still... Underwhelming?

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said:

>

 

There is another way to fix raids

 

Automated grouping similar to PvP but using a different formula for profession and experience (KP per profession). Scale the encounter difficulty per formula and provide a reward bonus for higher performance.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

> @"MrMadMan.2904" said:

> I hear (or see, I suppose) what you're saying. I've sen many arguments about necromancer being good in groups with inexperienced or non-hardcore players and when I said I had the impression that it lagged behind I didn't mean by a massive amount, just that it seems like other classes can bring a few more things to the table. Then again, I don't have a great understanding of the viability of a lot of the other classes (except for chronomancer and druid who seem mandatory). But as you said - necromancer wouldn't likely be used in an "optimal composition" - and I think that even players who are at a level where having the optimal composition doesn't matter still have that in mind. That has at least been my experience in other games.

 

I disagree entirely with the opinion that necromancer is in any way sub par. Our static raid group has a necro that can pull really high DPS playing Reaper. He also plays with another guild that does the highly optimized raiding and also plays necro with them. When our team needs our backup healer who is NOT that skilled (me), he can flip to support scourge and carry the squad while I try to get my act together, in place of our actually skilled healer. He also plays condi scourge well. He is hands down the best necro player I know in both PvE and PvP.

 

I think the bigger issue is perception. I played necro main for years and loved it. It’s fun, it has good build options for each game mode and for different play styles. Those options do change based on the most recent balance patches, but so do many others. If you want to be the top tier dps/dot/support player, I would argue that the greatest issue is personal skill, not how good of a class necro is. Decide what mode(s) you want to play in, spend some time doing research on builds, learn that build(s) by practicing, learn the appropriate game mechanics and go have fun.

 

[Ghos.1326]

in pvp necro is pretty darn strong. Definitely not underwhelming there.

[TamX.1870]

I don't have the years of perspective to this game, nor am I that experienced player, so you can read this comment from that perspective. I second @"Moira Shalaar.5620 ", @"Catchyfx.5768", @"Amerikajinn.4635" and others about the current status of necro. After PoF, at first it used to be ridiculously powerful in PvP and WvW, nowadays it is just very strong. Necro is quite powerful to all PvE content, too. I find saying "necro is only good for bad groups" bit overexaggerating, it is - based on my current experience - better to say that it is good to have one with the group to fix occasional mistakes - necro can def be the dividing line between successful completion and wipe and starting it all over again. Necros rezzing power is totally out of this world, which you will heavily appreciate if some of your group's support players happen to die due to some unpredicted mistake (cat jumped on keyboard or similar).

 

On the other hand I definitely understand people complaining that necro does not have that clear spots in highly optimized PvE runs. But that can be said vast majority of classes and their builds. For fractals, you have only 5 spots, so even in most ideal situation, there would be 4 classes that are considered bad choices, because they'd prolong the completition by 30 secs or so. You know, it is different to talk about minimum required DPS, it is different to talk about needed DPS to bypass mechanics, and it is different to talk about most optimal compositions. For raids, the situation would be ideally so that every class has its spot there, but that is something I can't ever hope to happen - for that, I'd like to think as @"Nimon.7840" says it, that different compositions are optimal for different encounters, and thus you'd have roles for all classes from wide perspective.

 

I haven't yet touched those highly optimized runs & groups. But what I think will be my approach, is that I don't think if some class belongs to the optimal setup or not, but choose to make those runs with classes & builds that are in meta at that given moment. That is what I did in the game I played before GW2 - I had a bunch of geared toons to be selected to runs based on what other classes were available. Meta changes, and so does compositions and builds. Currently, meta favors power damage, but it was not too long ago when condi was the key at least at PvP/WvW side. Sticking only in one class or even in one build would be IMO too risky, eventually your class & build will not be in meta and you are struggling to get a position in optimized runs.

 

I hope that OP can get the information necessary from these posts. The final answer really depends on your thoughts and plans, pick your answer from people who you think you share the same ideas of fun & successful playing.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said:

> > > > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap

> > > >

> > > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that.

> > >

> > > It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to"

> >

> > Again ... not everyone plays in the top 1% percentile. Sure, there is a SMALL percent of people who play in the range where they can avoid lots of damage, which renders some of the Scourge toolset not useful. For the mere mortals where it's 'cannot', it's a good and welcome approach in teams.

>

> You really don't get it huh?

 

No I get it ... I get it every time someone asks me to bring my necro. Hard to believe ay? It's not about the tools a class has; it's about the ability of the player to use them effectively. People like necro because it relaxes the level of ability people need to be successful, which gives them more freedom to play how they want ... exactly how this game was sold to people from the beginning. Again, your post shows YOU don't get it.

 

See, you aren't thinking right here. You believe that people don't like necro because it doesn't 'do it' better than anyone else. The correct way to think is to see people who team them or improved their opinion of necros in team and ask yourself why that is. There are ALWAYS going to be people that won't team a necro. That's not going to change. That doesn't have anything to do with necro performance or being successful in the game with one in team.

 

At this point, it's pretty ridiculous to come here, complain Necro isn't meta. I mean, if you care about meta, play a meta class. That's why you have choice. Why continue to beat everyone over the head with this meta pushing mentality? SOMEHOW, people have figured out how to play necro in teams ... and it's not because all the sudden, necro has all these amazing things that people want. The secret is simply; play with people that want to play with you.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said:

> > > > > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap

> > > > >

> > > > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that.

> > > >

> > > > It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to"

> > >

> > > Again ... not everyone plays in the top 1% percentile. Sure, there is a SMALL percent of people who play in the range where they can avoid lots of damage, which renders some of the Scourge toolset not useful. For the mere mortals where it's 'cannot', it's a good and welcome approach in teams.

> >

> > You really don't get it huh?

>

> No I get it ... I get it every time someone asks me to bring my necro. Hard to believe ay? It's not about the tools a class has; it's about the ability of the player to use them effectively. People like necro because it relaxes the level of ability people need to be successful, which gives them more freedom to play how they want ... exactly how this game was sold to people from the beginning. Again, your post shows YOU don't get it.

>

> See, you aren't thinking right here. You believe that people don't like necro because it doesn't 'do it' better than anyone else. The correct way to think is to see people who team them or improved their opinion of necros in team and ask yourself why that is. There are ALWAYS going to be people that won't team a necro. That's not going to change. That doesn't have anything to do with necro performance or being successful in the game with one in team.

>

> At this point, it's pretty ridiculous to come here, complain Necro isn't meta. I mean, if you care about meta, play a meta class. That's why you have choice. Why continue to beat everyone over the head with this meta pushing mentality? SOMEHOW, people have figured out how to play necro in teams ... and it's not because all the sudden, necro has all these amazing things that people want. The secret is simply; play with people that want to play with you.

 

if i remember correctly, you are the one, who said, Play what you like. but what if other People dont allow me to Play the class i want to Play and that i enjoy the most?

and even then. you say, that i should Play with People, that want to Play with me. so thats typically my Friends.

but even there, necro isnt a very good choice Right now, accept it already. and i dont want to be a burden to them, because i do low dps on most bosses.

sure there are bosses where necro is Pretty good or good, but stop Living in this Dream world where everyone is sining pink fluffy unicorns all day Long, and where everyone loves each other. thats really not realistic.

im not saying necro is trash, but compared to other classes its just not good enough and still Needs some serious work., to be accepted by the whole community as a viable raid member (and not just for soulless Horror and sabetha)

 

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> but even there, necro isnt a very good choice Right now, accept it already. and i dont want to be a burden to them, because i do low dps on most bosses.

> sure there are bosses where necro is Pretty good or good, but stop Living in this Dream world where everyone is sining pink fluffy unicorns all day Long, and where everyone loves each other. thats really not realistic.

> im not saying necro is trash, but compared to other classes its just not good enough and still Needs some serious work., to be accepted by the whole community as a viable raid member (and not just for soulless Horror and sabetha)

>

There are several possible reasons for low DPS aside from necromancer class design. Some will depend on your build. Some depends on your knowledge of and ability to play encounter mechanics. There are definitely going to be a boss here and there where Necro isn't optimal, and there is also the very real issue of squad/party composition which is what builds complement each other which can genuinely cause some issue occasionally, but that would not cause you to have a significantly low DPS.

 

Proper Gear, Build, mechanics and skill will keep your DPS top tier. if you haven't already, you might check out this link for some ideas on gear, build & rotation for good DPS.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said:

> > > > > > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that.

> > > > >

> > > > > It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to"

> > > >

> > > > Again ... not everyone plays in the top 1% percentile. Sure, there is a SMALL percent of people who play in the range where they can avoid lots of damage, which renders some of the Scourge toolset not useful. For the mere mortals where it's 'cannot', it's a good and welcome approach in teams.

> > >

> > > You really don't get it huh?

> >

> > No I get it ... I get it every time someone asks me to bring my necro. Hard to believe ay? It's not about the tools a class has; it's about the ability of the player to use them effectively. People like necro because it relaxes the level of ability people need to be successful, which gives them more freedom to play how they want ... exactly how this game was sold to people from the beginning. Again, your post shows YOU don't get it.

> >

> > See, you aren't thinking right here. You believe that people don't like necro because it doesn't 'do it' better than anyone else. The correct way to think is to see people who team them or improved their opinion of necros in team and ask yourself why that is. There are ALWAYS going to be people that won't team a necro. That's not going to change. That doesn't have anything to do with necro performance or being successful in the game with one in team.

> >

> > At this point, it's pretty ridiculous to come here, complain Necro isn't meta. I mean, if you care about meta, play a meta class. That's why you have choice. Why continue to beat everyone over the head with this meta pushing mentality? SOMEHOW, people have figured out how to play necro in teams ... and it's not because all the sudden, necro has all these amazing things that people want. The secret is simply; play with people that want to play with you.

>

> if i remember correctly, you are the one, who said, Play what you like. but what if other People dont allow me to Play the class i want to Play and that i enjoy the most?

 

... then you need to find the people that will. Playing what you like doesn't mean you impose yourself on others and how they want to play. That places the requirement to find like-minded players on the people LFT, not on Anet to design the game so no one cares what you do.

 

> im not saying necro is trash, but compared to other classes its just not good enough and still Needs some serious work., to be accepted by the whole community as a viable raid member (and not just for soulless Horror and sabetha)

 

That doesn't make sense ... there isn't any reason for the WHOLE community to be accepting of everyone's choices for how they want to play. That's just not going to happen unless Anet makes the content so trivial it's irrelevant what you do. Yes, you CAN play how you want, but if you want to team with people, you have to respect that THEY also play how THEY want. It works both ways.

[Ceit.7619]

When 8/9 professions have viable specs, it's a perfectly valid concern to want that last class to catch up to the pack. There will still be division based on meta-builds, rotation, gear stats, etc. It's not that big of a deal that people would like for Necromancer to be acceptably useful.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> When 8/9 professions have viable specs, it's a perfectly valid concern to want that last class to catch up to the pack. There will still be division based on meta-builds, rotation, gear stats, etc. It's not that big of a deal that people would like for Necromancer to be acceptably useful.

 

That doesn't make sense. Viability isn't defined by being meta or being accepted by the whole community. People just throw out this word 'viable', but what do you mean by that? Do you even know what it actually means? Not only do people find my necro viable, it's DESIRED in the teams I play in. So what's happening here is that you are just making some generality that isn't indicative of the current situation or even true.

 

Necro is viable, because it's capable of being used in teams that are successful. It always has been because being viable has nothing to do with some artificial barrier that players establish based on DPS.

 

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > When 8/9 professions have viable specs, it's a perfectly valid concern to want that last class to catch up to the pack. There will still be division based on meta-builds, rotation, gear stats, etc. It's not that big of a deal that people would like for Necromancer to be acceptably useful.

>

> That doesn't make sense. Viability isn't defined by being meta or being accepted by the whole community. People just throw out this word 'viable', but what do you mean by that? Do you even know what it actually means? Not only do people find my necro viable, it's DESIRED in the teams I play in. So what's happening here is that you are just making some generality that isn't indicative of the current situation or even true.

>

> Necro is viable, because it's capable of being used in teams that are successful. It always has been because being viable has nothing to do with some artificial barrier that players establish based on DPS.

>

>

>

 

So do you do weekly raidclears?

[Obtena.7952]

Sure ... I do weekly raidclears. We playing this game now are we? Like somehow my experience at raidclearing every week indicates necro is viable or not? OK ...

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sure ... I do weekly raidclears. We playing this game now are we? Like somehow my experience at raidclearing every week indicates necro is viable or not? OK ...

>

>

 

So we do the same thing. But since it's very time eating, we want to clear those bosses as fast as possible, because we got some real-life to do and some people want to do other things than raiding the whole time.

 

So if you do this, you pick meta classes, and sadly necro isn't meta. He's okayish at dhuum (clearing spiders without having to walk all the way + corrupts), twin largos, mursaat overseer, cairn and mathias. And very good for sabetha (if you have a good druid, necro is best for kiting, as it offers good range dmg+add cleave) and soulless horror (mainly for epiing golems and the worms)

 

But he's definetly not optimum. Maybe necro is VIABLE, but not for the most teams. As most teams want to get very fast kills.

Due to the above mentioned reasons.

 

Currently we are trying to get the kill on quadim for the whole guild and starting to do w6 challenge motes on 2 out of 3 raid days. And on the third, we try to clear the other 5 wings (got three hours for that). But there, we most of the times have some random a with us.

 

So yes, we want to do bosses the most efficient way, which is not playing necro, and instead stacking hills. And for that, necro isn't viable.

 

And I tell you something. 95 % of the players will tell you the exact same thing. The other 5 % either don't have a job and don't care about time, or they don't have much real-life, or they don't mind not killing all the bosses.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

>

> So we do the same thing. But since it's very time eating, we want to clear those bosses as fast as possible, because we got some real-life to do and some people want to do other things than raiding the whole time.

 

There is more than one way to save time on a run. After all, if you're swapping classes after every boss to ensure the optimal composition you're losing time to multiple loading screens and character selection prompts (and that's made even worse for players that aren't running SSDs) or swapping to the ideal weapon sets in some cases. Meanwhile, in the case of my own raid clears I have an effective application for Necromancer (sometimes even multiple) for every boss in the game (yes, I"m including KC here, Power Reaper can churn out some sweet burst when you know what you're doing). MightyTeapot goes over this a little bit [[in this video here]](

), while it can feel great to go for the most efficient/optimal strategy sometimes it actually results in a net loss in time beyond just swapping around professions/specializations/strategies due to downtime or deaths from a very aggressive strategy (after all, even guilds like SC that are part of the upper echelons of GW2 raiding can wipe sometimes).

 

Sure, if more than one person is changing then it isn't as bad, but my point is that sometimes just running the one profession for the whole raid saves time in its own way. In W5 you can run Condi Scourge for Desmina, run Power Scourge for the river (yes, I said power scourge), whatever the heck build you want for statues and Power Reaper for Dhuum and be able to be viable, if not great at every encounter of the wing.

 

> So if you do this, you pick meta classes, and sadly necro isn't meta. He's okayish at dhuum (clearing spiders without having to walk all the way + corrupts), twin largos, mursaat overseer, cairn and mathias. And very good for sabetha (if you have a good druid, necro is best for kiting, as it offers good range dmg+add cleave) and soulless horror (mainly for epiing golems and the worms)

>

> But he's definetly not optimum. Maybe necro is VIABLE, but not for the most teams. As most teams want to get very fast kills.

> Due to the above mentioned reasons.

 

And this isn't a bad thing. I'm definitely not saying that Necro SHOULD be considered optimal, but it definitely is very good at what it does, acting as a great safety net for groups/players that aren't doing so hot (or in the case of Condi Reaper just providing another way to play a condi build that is more involved than just using skills on cooldown whilst providing a slightly different pool of tools to use) or exploring a new raid as was indicated by the first ever Qadim kill employing the use of a Support Scourge, and even performing well in the hands of a player that enjoys and has mastered the class (which I'd expect from any profession, not just Necro). You've gotta be good at a build to get the optimal results after all, and it's much harder to master a playstyle you don't like playing. Player preference/skill should come first here, and we finally have a balance scene where this viewpoint is super relevant.

 

> Currently we are trying to get the kill on quadim for the whole guild and starting to do w6 challenge motes on 2 out of 3 raid days. And on the third, we try to clear the other 5 wings (got three hours for that). But there, we most of the times have some random a with us.

>

> So yes, we want to do bosses the most efficient way, which is not playing necro, and instead stacking ~~hills~~ holos. And for that, necro isn't viable.

 

This is also fine. No-one is saying you should have to run Necromancers here. But it's pretty clear in this case you're talking about the optimal scenario (essentially saying Necro is not viable to be optimal, which has no major bearing on the viability of Necro in general). The primary viewpoint that this thread has been going for (or at least that I'm going for) is that Necromancer is in a good place. It performs well when played well, and even stacks up decently with the optimal choice, though two players of equal skill level will still have a variance in damage results. But sometimes even in a group going for the fastest time possible Necro can be relevant.

 

To take your example of Qadim CM:

* an accomplished Power Reaper can solo the maze segments freeing up dps to deal with the legendary mob "upstairs".

* Reaper can utilize its self-generated might quickness and vulnerability to deal with the Pyre Guardians to more quickly without one of the two Chronomancers.

* Reaper has an easily accessible pull to help with add control without relying on more dangerous tactics should that be an issue

 

While not the optimal option, in a situation where one is doing the challenge mote Reaper can reduce the strain from certain parts of the fight in its own way, much like how groups that might struggle to employ the optimal strategy (due to players having a lack of mastery of the optimal builds or the experience with the fight that those who run the optimal strategies might have) can use it in standard attempts.

 

Furthermore, my own static runs similar times to yours. We currently have two days allotted during the week to do raid clears, with two three hour sessions to do the PoF raids and the HoT ones (ie 5,6 and 1-4 respectively). Sure we try to beat our times from the previous week but we still use it as a time to basically hang out, crack jokes, and generally just enjoy the experience. Sure we fiesta a bit but generally we're having fun, and I doubt having the net 2-3k dps increase if I were to run something other than Necro would matter too much in the grand scheme of our 2-3 hour sessions for raids.

 

But that's my context, and you have yours. Both are correct, and neither have the sole honor of dictating the state of the class. The state of the class, and by extension the current state of balance overall, does.

 

> And I tell you something. 95 % of the players will tell you the exact same thing. The other 5 % either don't have a job and don't care about time, or they don't have much real-life, or they don't mind not killing all the bosses.

 

And I'd counter that with a differing viewpoint. A lot of people play Guild Wars 2 to **have fun**. To some getting the fastest time possible is the idea of fun, to some stretching the capabilities of the class they enjoy to play to the limits, or mastering every iteration of said classes' build potential (as is the case for myself in trying to master every build/style of Necro) is the idea of fun. You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint here that because Necro doesn't line up with what you expect from a class in the optimal scenario you want to run, it isn't good. And in that context it isn't sure. But OVERALL Necromancer IS good. Having four different builds that perform well in high-end content is nothing to shake a stick at after all; it certainly is more flexible than most other professions, and is only exceeded by Warrior if we put aside multiple iterations of the same build like condi/support druid and more specific builds like kiter herald.

 

(and I definitely don't fall under the rather slanderous category of having neither a life, a job, nor killing all of the bosses).

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

 

> So yes, we want to do bosses the most efficient way, which is not playing necro, and instead stacking hills. And for that, necro isn't viable.

 

Then your definition of viable is self-restricted to OPTIMIZED raiding to push an agenda that Necro isn't meta. Let's be clear here, the side discussion was a challenge to the idea necro wasn't viable in raids, not that it isn't meta. Those are not the same thing. Don't try to pretend they are. If you want to say necro isn't useful in optimized teams, that has nothing to do with if it's a viable class in raids because it certainly is.

 

This might seem like a pedantic argument but it isn't, because at the heart of all this is people that play a game because it's fun and not everyone considers speed running raid instances fun. So basically, you are ignoring all those people's experience and therefore, so saying necro isn't viable is not an accurate statement given that people whole play necros in raids and teams that have them in raids are successful.

 

[Teratus.2859]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something.

>

> I agree with that but your profession need to be the best or at least acceptable in end game content

> for example last night i joined a raid LFG for full clear W6 and i pinged KP for 5 times clears but they all say we dont want to carry a necro and start to give me an example of current necromancer benchmark and i told them just give me one try if i dont get first or second DPS then kick me but they say its a wast of time and kick me any way

> then after that i started a LFG for full clear W6 and did it then i pinged the new KP to the commander who kicked me and told him that a prof that necromancer can do a full W6 clear but he said the necro in W6 will delay the boss kill by 30 second because of his low DPS so i will never do a W6 with a necro and all will do the same in the future

>

That's the kind of elitist arrogance that makes me block people XD

 

I really can't stand those kinds of attitudes nor do I want to play with people like that.

Sucks you had to go though that.. been there myself in the past because "my weapons were wrong" or mr self proclaimed DPS master got killed because everyone elses fault XD