Mirage/mesmer is OP?

[TorQ.7041]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> Biggest thing people have a problem with against mirage is the detargeting. But I'll give people a little hint.

>

> If the mesmer drops target and didn't stealth, 9/10 times for me retargetting happens in less than a second with tab targeting. You don't actually have to try that hard to find the real mesmer.

>

> Mirage gave mesmer the ability to finally mess with the opponents mind because now the Dodge animation for mesmer is different than other classes.

>

> Mirage is still nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to

>

> -firebrands

> -spell breakers

> -holosmith

> -reapers

>

>

 

Not sure about the other ones but power mesmer can one shot a reaper. U can watch it on short's channel.

 

Also scourge and necro in general. There's a game where he basically one shots them over and over and over. Lol

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > Power Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull off

>

> This however has become a very poor argument for anything. Pretty much all classes can "1shot" players nowadays. Its hard to come up with one that *cant*.

>

> I mean just the other day someone posted that clip of a norn ranger in WvW stealthing, taking raven shape and bam 35k damage lol on a dd.

 

I think people are mostly annoyed that mes can do it from stealth.

 

It also has the ability to make mutiple clones,teleport, evade and stealth. If u dedicate every thing to one shot. U shld die if you fail. But for mes u don't have to.

 

It's also why people are annoyed about deadeye. It can stealth and redo it with out being punished.

 

[jportell.2197]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > > Power Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull off

> >

> > This however has become a very poor argument for anything. Pretty much all classes can "1shot" players nowadays. Its hard to come up with one that *cant*.

> >

> > I mean just the other day someone posted that clip of a norn ranger in WvW stealthing, taking raven shape and bam 35k damage lol on a dd.

>

> I think people are mostly annoyed that mes can do it from stealth.

>

> It also has the ability to make mutiple clones,teleport, evade and stealth. If u dedicate every thing to one shot. U shld die if you fail. But for mes u don't have to.

>

> It's also why people are annoyed about deadeye. It can stealth and redo it with out being punished.

>

 

The mes one shot build is the power mantra. Its skill bar is two mantras, and blink. If it one shots from stealth it can't go back into stealth after as the build has only one source of stealth the teleport is on a 30s CD. So the only disengsge it really has is mirage thrust.

[jportell.2197]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > Biggest thing people have a problem with against mirage is the detargeting. But I'll give people a little hint.

> >

> > If the mesmer drops target and didn't stealth, 9/10 times for me retargetting happens in less than a second with tab targeting. You don't actually have to try that hard to find the real mesmer.

> >

> > Mirage gave mesmer the ability to finally mess with the opponents mind because now the Dodge animation for mesmer is different than other classes.

> >

> > Mirage is still nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to

> >

> > -firebrands

> > -spell breakers

> > -holosmith

> > -reapers

> >

> >

>

> Not sure about the other ones but power mesmer can one shot a reaper. U can watch it on short's channel.

>

> Also scourge and necro in general. There's a game where he basically one shots them over and over and over. Lol

 

I said in the grand scheme of things. As in team fights. Reaper brings way more to team fights than most mesmer builds. Which is fine. However you have builds that are great team fighters and great side node builds.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > > > Power Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull off

> > >

> > > This however has become a very poor argument for anything. Pretty much all classes can "1shot" players nowadays. Its hard to come up with one that *cant*.

> > >

> > > I mean just the other day someone posted that clip of a norn ranger in WvW stealthing, taking raven shape and bam 35k damage lol on a dd.

> >

> > I think people are mostly annoyed that mes can do it from stealth.

> >

> > It also has the ability to make mutiple clones,teleport, evade and stealth. If u dedicate every thing to one shot. U shld die if you fail. But for mes u don't have to.

> >

> > It's also why people are annoyed about deadeye. It can stealth and redo it with out being punished.

> >

>

> The mes one shot build is the power mantra. Its skill bar is two mantras, and blink. If it one shots from stealth it can't go back into stealth after as the build has only one source of stealth the teleport is on a 30s CD. So the only disengsge it really has is mirage thrust.

 

Even if u fail your one shot. They are at half hp. Your auto attack on power gs is 3k 5k and 7k. You also have mutiple clones ur opponent has to tab through. That shld be enough time for you to finish them off.

 

Either way. I am not too bothered by it any more. I basically use my thief and have the passive instant reflexes going specifically go mesmer hunting.

 

Pressing 4 buttons very quick n some one dies is not the definition of fun for every one else. Same can be said for other builds.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > Biggest thing people have a problem with against mirage is the detargeting. But I'll give people a little hint.

> > >

> > > If the mesmer drops target and didn't stealth, 9/10 times for me retargetting happens in less than a second with tab targeting. You don't actually have to try that hard to find the real mesmer.

> > >

> > > Mirage gave mesmer the ability to finally mess with the opponents mind because now the Dodge animation for mesmer is different than other classes.

> > >

> > > Mirage is still nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to

> > >

> > > -firebrands

> > > -spell breakers

> > > -holosmith

> > > -reapers

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Not sure about the other ones but power mesmer can one shot a reaper. U can watch it on short's channel.

> >

> > Also scourge and necro in general. There's a game where he basically one shots them over and over and over. Lol

>

> I said in the grand scheme of things. As in team fights. Reaper brings way more to team fights than most mesmer builds. Which is fine. However you have builds that are great team fighters and great side node builds.

 

Shld it? Firebrand and reaper is fixed to a team fight. Thief is fixed to only decapping. But mesmer can do both. One shotting some one instantly in mid fight is a massive deal. It ensures u basically get mid. After your one shot you can basically stand around ur clones n auto attack n still do massive dmg.

 

I do get that if u r found u r dead. Nowadays it's condi mes every where. Which is another issue..

[Noha.3749]

Powermesmer = not broken, but strong all around

Condimesmer = not broken, but too easy to do well with little effort against avrage players.

 

Condimirage is the "standard" mesmerbuild people complain about. You can build alot of defense and have alot of low CD active defense along with good def traits and still deal great amounts of damage.. While also being "hard" for bad players to target.

 

Its not easier to play than most ranger, warrior or guardian builds though, its just that the "common" player isnt good in PvP and cant handle clones along with the blocks, and keeps running around/throwing abilities around with confusion/torment on them before cleansing.

 

I hear more people complaining about holosmith than Condimirage though, but i cant understand that. Its easier to fight a holosmith by timing your dodges than a condimirage. I guess that is because on a "node" in sPvP the holo can deal better AoE damage and AoE CC than the condimirage.

 

[Blocki.4931]

Personally I just hate the frequency at which they can do their combos mixed with me never having played the class myself. It would probably help me understand it better, but I dislike the entire class so I can't be bothered.

 

Plus anything that can stealth is automatically twice as annoying.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> Either way. I am not too bothered by it any more. I basically use my thief and have the passive instant reflexes going specifically go mesmer hunting.

 

Which is how the game works.

 

My hybrid mesmer cant oneshot people, have no stun mantra and has problems dealing with other power sustain builds (been in 3m 1v1s vs warriors lol), but in turn its specifically designed to eat frontloaded gank roamers such as oneshot mesmers, thieves, etc while also having the cleanse to deal with condi bombs from condi mesmers, necros etc.

 

 

[TheBravery.9615]

If this game wasn't so reliant on tab targeting, mesmers and thieves wouldn't be so much of a problem to deal with.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> **Even if u fail your one shot. They are at half hp. Your auto attack on power gs is 3k 5k and 7k**.

L2p is only way for you . GS AUTO DOES 3-5-7k DAMAGE YEEEEEEEE BOIIIIIIIIS , get the hell out of here with your bs and never come back

[viquing.8254]

>Shld it? Firebrand and reaper is fixed to a team fight. Thief is fixed to only decapping. But mesmer can do both.

WTF ?! are you comparing firebrand and reaper teamfight ability to mesmer ? really ?

 

>The mes one shot build is the power mantra.

4k mantra + 3-6k mb + 8 k shatter one shot is only on builds with 0 defensive ability, 0 sustain auto-proc, 0 dodge up, even on a reaper with the cs nerf it's hard to talk about one shot.

 

>Powermesmer = not broken, but strong all around

>Condimesmer = not broken, but too easy to do well with little effort against avrage players.

Powermesmer = +1 role, while other +1 are better to pressure.

Condimesmer = slighty better than powermes to fight on node.

And we are not talking about efforts but efficiency.

 

>Your auto attack on power gs is 3k 5k and 7k.

Ambush != auto-attack and with equal stat, equal weapon, mes auto are bad compared to other class auto.

 

[brappish.8715]

Its seems people just are confused about how to fight them, blaming their own faults as the mesmer class being OP.....

[steveraptor.9603]

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > @"brappish.8715" said:

> > > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > > yes, mirage is op

> >

> > Why?

>

> Mirage is one of the few specs with 2 viable builds

> Power Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull off

> Condi Mirage can flood opponents with annoying conditions like torment (damage when moving), confusion (damage when using skill) and burning (flat damage)

> First problem: condi flood is way too frequent... it doesnt matter if you dodge the condi application or use your cleanse since they can re-apply it all in a matter of seconds

>

> Next its the mesmer/mirage toolkit where you have many ways of surviving or disengaging...

> Messed your 1shot as power shatter or are you losing your fight as condi? No problem, you can:

> - Blink

> - Portal

> - Dodge+Sword1 (ambush skill) to do a huge leap forward

>

> Can't disengage at the moment? No problem, you can:

> - Sword 2 to get invul

> - F4 to get invul

> - Dodge WHILE STUNNED - so no matter if you messed up and got stunned in the middle of the fight, just dodge the burst while you still stunned

>

> Also for newer players there's even the illusion spam problem where you target the mesmer, suddenly +3 mesmer appear on your screen/minimap, you need to find out the real one again, only for them to use a skill that shuffles the illusions and makes opponents lose target...

>

> The biggest issue is that mesmer is strong in every aspect of the game... Be it damage, survival, disengage, mobility... They don't have 1-2 strong things going for them, they have everything.

>

> Necros can condi flood as well... but they can't disengage or use multiple invuls

> Thief can disengage pretty nice but they're doomed if opponents time their stuns

> etc...

>

> well, that's MY feeling towards mirage in general - others may or may not agree :P

 

Pretty much nailed this....

[FaboBabo.3581]

Gotta say the only Thing which is currently broken on mirage is the dodge while stuned part.

I love that part and it beeing core, and i will probably loose 10-15% more duels if they ever remove this, but in theory it needs to go.

 

At the same time i would not change the EM to do something similar. Mirage is elusive enough. EM can grant boons and maybe remove the condition still.

Im hoping a LOT for a Might source withing the EM, since right now i lack Might when not on GS. Phantasmal Force won't really help Mirages, while it's pretty good on Chrono ( i guess? ). Not looking for 25 Stacks here , but something arround 8-12 Might would be sweet.

[MikeL.8260]

As far as PvP is concerned yes, Mirage is op in low to mid tier divisions(bronze - gold3/plat1) and slightly above average in high tiers (high plat2+).

 

Definitely op in any sort of PvE.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Apparently is op until someone plays it.

Yesterday I was watching a stream, I never watch these but a friend told me the streamer had insides concerning incoming nerfs.

The streamer rolled a mirage, got into a pvp match while exclaming even a monkey could play mirage.

Match over, 5 deaths 2 kills.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Apparently is op until someone plays it.

> Yesterday I was watching a stream, I never watch these but a friend told me the streamer had insides concerning incoming nerfs.

> The streamer rolled a mirage, got into a pvp match while exclaming even a monkey could play mirage.

> Match over, 5 deaths 2 kills.

 

AMEN!

Most people forget, **STREAMERS STREAM FOR MONEY!** There's a boatload of average players that stream and put on a show, and talk all kinds of smack (_for a quick buck_), cuz that's what appeals to their Under17 audience. I'd recommend players on this forum take everything streamers say or do with a grain of salt. It's just business for them, WWE anyone?

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

If anything, Anet really needs to rethink stealth mechanics and reevaluate it's impact on class that can be both tanky and disengage easily at the same time. In other words, it's low risk high reward class.

[Daishi.6027]

Condi has a little bit of a high output but it’s nothing intolerable beyond the normal standards of power creep, people just still don’t know how to doge shatters and complain.

 

I still find it funny they nerfed vigor, jaunts, and blurred frenzy when thief still has sword/dagger. Not say it's OP in terms of conquest, but being able to instantly gap close and get distance while evading whenever you want with unblockable attacks makes me laugh every time someone complains about mirage doge.

[viquing.8254]

Since the last patch, I run into somes differents builds :

* Power mirage & power chrono : can't play on point and there is better +1 so no much rage from opponents because it's suboptimal for PvP with many counter specs.

* Condi mirage : like usual "OP" even if can't anticap points vs three quarters of specs.

* Heal/tank chrono/mirage builds : it's probably the most insteresting things. I can't kill anyone with it, it's just about stay on point to conserve the cap and it's weak when under much +1 situations. But the amount of rage in front is impressing when playing it. "Fucking noob build", "op spec (Remember that I do not kill anoyne with it", "when is the nerf (coming from thief under perma plasma.)" and so on.

 

Conclusion are :

* Even with 0 damage output, mesmer are op.

* Even if they are less usefull in a role, mesmers are op.

 

So for the mourners, a good mesmer situation is something that :

* Must not fight on equal terms with other melee / in aoe (cause light armor shouldn't be good melee, you know.). **But** also shouldn't have the mobility to evade melee spec because it's not fun if we can't hit him.

* Must not land more than 9k burst in 4 spell (While near **every** other professions have better damage coefficient on weapon.). It was fun comparing FB heal build axe auto spam vs mesmer heal build axe autospam output for example.

* Even if it can be hit, it should die in less than 30 sec from every spec (even from FB) because it's not fun hitting a tank even if it does nothing other than self tanking.

 

At this point I think that even if we only do visual effects, we will always be op because pink butterfly confuse too much.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> If anything, Anet really needs to rethink stealth mechanics and reevaluate it's impact on class that can be both tanky and disengage easily at the same time. In other words, it's low risk high reward class.

 

The stealth bit I agree with.

I'm an apologist of removing stealth from game entirely but that won't happen.

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

> Conclusion are :

> * Even with 0 damage output, mesmer are op.

> * Even if they are less usefull in a role, mesmers are op.

 

Until Mes is a clone itself regarding damage and HP, the qq won't stop.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > If anything, Anet really needs to rethink stealth mechanics and reevaluate it's impact on class that can be both tanky and disengage easily at the same time. In other words, it's low risk high reward class.

>

> The stealth bit I agree with.

> I'm an apologist of removing stealth from game entirely but that won't happen.

Its kind of funny... I used to run with NO stealth on my roaming mesmer, but then Anet nerfed offhand sword so I was forced back to using the torch. Anet want mesmers to stealth, clearly.

[Brighteluden.2974]

When a class is being viewed as OP by the vast majority of the community. It's OP..That's just the way it is. Mesmer mains generally will be biased, so it's not really fair.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Whats the point of asking if Mesmer is OP in the Mesmer Forum? Ask it in the PvP Forum if you want usefull answers.