Rework EM Ideas

[FaboBabo.3581]

Post Ideas for a complete EM rework, so we can give Anet some ways to work with faster.

 

1. MC Grants Boons and removes a Condition. Boons likely Might/Fury/Stability/Swiftness - Choose fitting amount + duration etc.

2. MC restores Health and Endurance - Choose fitting amount

 

Go ahead

[Curunen.8729]

Edit - for clarity each option below is standalone/individual.

 

1. Baseline MC no longer functions when stunned/knockdown/etc. EM allows MC to function when stunned (but not break it). Exhaustion removed. Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

.

2. ICD with UI indicator (see gif below). Cleanse one condition on every dodge, only stunbreak is affected by this.


Breaking cc activates EM ICD and changes colour of dodge bar.

White line ammo system indicates remaining time until EM stunbreak available.

ICD can be adjusted to any duration without affecting overall balance of the trait (eg can be put at 20s)

.

3. EM converts every cc effect into daze, with the duration remaining of the inflicted cc (daze itself is not affected). Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

.

4. Dodging when cced spawns two clones, breaks target and shuffles the position of player/clones with all illusions gaining mirage cloak (and therefore ambush if a target is selected), radius 600 *centred around the player's location* (not around a target). Similar to Mirror Images but with Illusionary Ambush style shuffle and cloak. This effect does **not** break the cc and gives 3s exhaustion. Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

.

5. EM refunds 5 endurance whenever you (the player) successfully hit a target with an ambush attack, and cleanses one condition every dodge.

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6. EM refunds 5 endurance and cleanses a condition every dodge.

.

7. EM provides +10% native endurance regeneration and cleanses one condition every dodge.

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8. EM provides 1s vigour and cleanses one condition every dodge.

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9. Will add to this when thinking of more.

[Arlette.9684]

You're looking at this one-sidedly. If MC is touched in any way, EVERY SINGLE TRAIT in the e-spec will have to be re-balanced accordingly.

What about the other 8 Major and 2 Minor traits? Why two (2) you ask?

Well if the first Minor awards MC then it shouldn't really be included. It's the trait, we're reworking. :wink:

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> 1. Baseline MC no longer functions when stunned/knockdown/etc. EM allows MC to function when stunned (but not break it). Exhaustion removed. Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

> .

> 2. ICD with UI indicator (see gif below). Cleanse one condition on every dodge, only stunbreak is affected by this.

> 

> Breaking cc activates EM ICD and changes colour of dodge bar.

> White line ammo system indicates remaining time until EM stunbreak available.

> ICD can be adjusted to any duration without affecting overall balance of the trait (eg can be put at 20s)

> .

> 3. EM converts every cc effect into daze, with the duration remaining of the inflicted cc (daze itself is not affected). Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

> .

> 4. Dodging when cced spawns two clones, breaks target and shuffles the position of player/clones with all illusions gaining mirage cloak (and therefore ambush if a target is selected), radius 600 *centred around the player's location* (not around a target). Similar to Mirror Images but with Illusionary Ambush style shuffle and cloak. This effect does **not** break the cc and gives 3s exhaustion. Cleanse one condition on every dodge.

> .

> 5. EM refunds 5 endurance whenever you (the player) successfully hit a target with an ambush attack, and cleanses one condition every dodge.

> .

> 6. EM refunds 5 endurance and cleanses a condition every dodge.

> .

> 7. EM provides +10% native endurance regeneration and cleanses one condition every dodge.

> .

> 8. EM provides 1s vigour and cleanses one condition every dodge.

> .

> 9. Will add to this when thinking of more.

 

Personally, I'd rather have the condi cleanse be moved somewhere else and focusing on giving EM a unique identity *cough Polar opposite of Dune Cloak! *cough

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> You're looking at this one-sidedly. If MC is touched in any way, EVERY SINGLE TRAIT in the e-spec will have to be re-balanced accordingly.

> What about the other 8 Major and 2 Minor traits? Why two (2) you ask?

> Well if the first Minor awards MC then it shouldn't really be included. It's the trait, we're reworking. :wink:

 

Oh - it's only the first idea in my post that affects MC baseline. Numbers 2, 3, 4, etc don't touch MC at all and are intended with how it currently functions. They are all separate options. ;)

Edit - I was thinking further and understand what you mean for example if EM refunded endurance or something and how other traits would interact with what is increased frequency of access to mirage cloak, though I think it would be fine with small effects that are intended to either enhance the defensive aspect of mirage cloak (following the trend of thr middle line traits of regen from renewing oasis and protection from mirage mantle), or provide access to mirage cloak more often (eg being more Elusive due to ability to dodge more often).

 

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> Personally, I'd rather have the condi cleanse be moved somewhere else and focusing on giving EM a unique identity *cough Polar opposite of Dune Cloak! *cough

 

And yes I would LOVE if Renewing Oasis was changed to grant regen and cleanse 1 condi on mirage cloak (get rid of that duration reduction), and then open EM up for something completely different.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

how about the dodge animation lasts twice as long, remove everything else.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> how about the dodge animation lasts twice as long, remove everything else.

 

I was thinking about that - eg an increase to 1.25s but suppose that will cause such a kittenstorm as the dodge is already longer.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Curunen had some pretty cool ideas while some were conservative -10% endurance regeneration while some professions have 50 while stacking 1min of vigor and easily maintaining it is kind of lackluster imo.

Still I think cleanse one condi, one soft cc and removing the exhaustion is enough.

[Amaranthe.3578]

Would be cool if it granted a 3rd dodge like daredevil. Since Mirage is based around dodges too.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> how about the dodge animation lasts twice as long, remove everything else.

 

Twice as long as current MC or twice as long as a normal dodge?

 

Because both are broken but twice as long as current would be absurd.

 

A good stun lasts 2s. Twice as long as base would for example let a mirage dodge through most of the CC in the game, even after failing to dodge the actual stun itself, rendering any setup made by any opponent absolutely pointless.

 

For EM to be buffed or the exhaustion removed, MC needs to no longer be castable while CC'ed or immobilized just like base dodge.

 

Nothing in the game should let people retroactively negate a misplay for no cost. MC halfway does this by default., EM makes it a full-on answer. Don't want the Exhaustion? Then stunbreak first (it only applies exhaustion on stunbreak unlike Daredevil which gets it on-cleanse), or dodge the CC skill itself like everyone else has to.

 

I understand MC is the "point" of Mirage.

So is the "sniper" concept of Deadeye. I think both are bad design and impossible to balance.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > how about the dodge animation lasts twice as long, remove everything else.

>

> I was thinking about that - eg an increase to 1.25s but suppose that will cause such a kittenstorm as the dodge is already longer.

 

Just the thought of it, invoked agonizing cries from imaginary players :lol:

[Curunen.8729]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Don't want the Exhaustion? Then stunbreak first (it only applies exhaustion on stunbreak unlike Daredevil which gets it on-cleanse), or dodge the CC skill itself like everyone else has to.

 

Just to highlight again the issue of daze - normal dodging works when dazed but EM now gives you 6s exhaustion even if say a deadeye insta marks you with daze at range and you may just want to dodge but not clear the daze. It doesn't incentivise using the trait.

 

Sure UC has this issue with cleansing cc conditions when you can otherwise normally dodge under two out of three of them (I also think this is stupid design and should be changed - if a normal dodge can do it then a traited dodge shouldn't cause such a handicap), but I think 6s on breaking daze - particularly when a lot of the time it is unnecessary to break immediately and can be waited out, or even if accidental if you happen to dodge a fraction after eating a short duration daze - is excessively harsh.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Don't want the Exhaustion? Then stunbreak first (it only applies exhaustion on stunbreak unlike Daredevil which gets it on-cleanse), or dodge the CC skill itself like everyone else has to.

>

> Just to highlight again the issue of daze - normal dodging works when dazed but EM now gives you 6s exhaustion even if say a deadeye insta marks you with daze at range and you may just want to dodge but not clear the daze. It doesn't incentivise using the trait.

>

> Sure UC has this issue with cleansing cc conditions when you can otherwise normally dodge under two out of three of them (I also think this is stupid design and should be changed - if a normal dodge can do it then a traited dodge shouldn't cause such a handicap), but I think 6s on breaking daze - particularly when a lot of the time it is unnecessary to break immediately and can be waited out, or even if accidental if you happen to dodge a fraction after eating a short duration daze - is excessively harsh.

>

 

The problem is still back in MC.

 

When you stunbreak a daze via dodging with EM, you still have the ability to then use abilities while dodging while everyone else still suffers the effects of daze for a period of time (unable to cast abilities) because they get animation-locked in their dodge action.

 

That's why MC evade frame time increases also are not compatible as a whole. By extending them all you're doing is letting the mesmer basically suffer at worst the effects of a dodge roll while dazed, while still making the class capable of even better offensive play at no risk thanks to the lack of animations on its dodge and how it can dodge while disabled to negate punishment retroactively.

 

Anything that bolsters dodges outright breaks MC. Dodge food, EM, vigor in the Dueling line, you name it.

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > how about the dodge animation lasts twice as long, remove everything else.

>

> Twice as long as current MC or twice as long as a normal dodge?

>

> Because both are broken but twice as long as current would be absurd.

>

> A good stun lasts 2s. Twice as long as base would for example let a mirage dodge through most of the CC in the game, even after failing to dodge the actual stun itself, rendering any setup made by any opponent absolutely pointless.

>

> For EM to be buffed or the exhaustion removed, MC needs to no longer be castable while CC'ed or immobilized just like base dodge.

>

> Nothing in the game should let people retroactively negate a misplay for no cost. MC halfway does this by default., EM makes it a full-on answer. Don't want the Exhaustion? Then stunbreak first (it only applies exhaustion on stunbreak unlike Daredevil which gets it on-cleanse), or dodge the CC skill itself like everyone else has to.

>

> I understand MC is the "point" of Mirage.

> So is the "sniper" concept of Deadeye. I think both are bad design and impossible to balance.

 

so whats your solution? you seem like a knowledgeable individual whom I can trust.

[DeceiverX.8361]

- MC Duration reduced to a normal dodge at .75s and the ability to dodge while CC'ed removed.

- Remove Exhaustion from EM and put it on an ICD akin to a normal stunbreak.

- Restore Vigor in Dueling.

- Remove Dodge food from the game.

 

Still retains the spec identity of MC allowing actions during dodge, cuts the raw dodge uptime to reasonable levels (Prior to the vigor nerfs Mirage had more evasion uptime than Acrobatics thief), Exhaustion is less-punishing into better play but EM less-rewarding to worse players, improves the core mesmer spec, and normalizes mirage across modes because dodge food breaks it so much harder than necessary in WvW while it's obviously not a problem in sPvP.

 

All this really does is lower the skill floor and up the skill ceiling. Good mirages who dodge CC preemptively (as every other class needs to) will still dodge everything, and a stray daze won't totally screw them over. The normalized evasion window allows further improvements to core's negation potential, and EM becomes much more optional but still a potent trait since it basically makes MC function slightly better than baseline right now, which for a GM is fair given its strength, all the while still letting mirage get shut down if played poorly.

 

 

[flog.3485]

Elusive mind becomes “when under the effect of crowd control, you can use your mirage clock to evade damages”.

 

Elusive Mind becomes an ability that you gain when you shatter a mirage mirror. It works as a mantra with two charges that you can recharge (the ratio is one shatter for 2 charges). When the two charges are used the trait goes on cooldown for 40 seconds....But you can halve the cooldown of the trait as much as possible by landing an interrupt or a one time cooldown reduction if too high.

 

Similar to Riddle of Sand or the signets, the trait specific mechanic is displayed on the UI for PvP purposes (WvW and SPvP).

 

I don’t know if it is possible in terms of development to design a trait like that. However I think it would be cool to tie a strong and unique mechanic of mirage to another one that doesn’t see much use.