Killing gods and elder dragons (spoilers)

[Shostie.6435]

The story telling in Guild Wars 2 has improved dramatically since launch, IMO, but one of the things I feel hasn't really improved has been the killing of gods and elder dragons. It doesn't feel epic enough to me. I'm not talking about mechanics or the difficulty of the fight. I have no complaints about those. My problem is that killing such an incomprehensibly powerful entity in a solo or story dungeon instance just doesn't feel right to me. It should take dozens, if not hundreds, of people to kill such a powerful entity. I would have been more satisfied if the Dragon Stand meta was the final story step for Heart of Thorns instead of the Victory or Death story instance, which has always felt weird and underwhelming to me (story-wise). Killing Balthazar in a solo instance when he killed the player-character in a previous solo instance didn't feel right either. If a god or an elder dragon can be killed by a single (or a few) mortal(s), how powerful can they really be? Not very.

 

I say all that to say that I hope the next _final fight_ we have with an elder dragon, god, or similarly powerful entity is handled differently. I don't know that an open-world fight is necessarily that best choice. It might be, but I acknowledge there are drawbacks. I'm sure lots of people would complain that they didn't get to face the big boss 1-on-1, even if surviving such an encounter is patently absurd.

[Hesacon.8735]

Zhaitan took a fleet of airships and supply lines across all of Orr.

 

Mordremoth blew up said fleet of airships about five minutes, so the pact built alliances with the Itzel and Nuhoch and marched hundreds of troops through Dragon's Stand. Without this giant distraction, the commando mission into the mind of Mordremoth would not have been possible.

 

Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

 

None of these were solo affairs, they were a coordinated effort.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> Zhaitan took a fleet of airships and supply lines across all of Orr.

>

> Mordremoth blew up said fleet of airships about five minutes, so the pact built alliances with the Itzel and Nuhoch and marched hundreds of troops through Dragon's Stand. Without this giant distraction, the commando mission into the mind of Mordremoth would not have been possible.

>

> Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

>

> None of these were solo affairs, they were a coordinated effort.

 

Not to mention that the Gods and Dragons aren't infinitely powerful. Each as a vulnerability, and the Commander and Company has always exploited that in one form or another. The Fight against Zhaitan involved a major campaign of starve the Dragon of its energy source, substantially weakening it to where it would be Vulnerable to an Cannon and ammunition specifically designed to harm/kill it. This only came off as confusing, because the fight itself wasn't the Pact just going in and beating at it until it ran out of HP (IE: how most raids works). There was half a story arc dedicated to preparation, and building a strategic advantage.

 

The Mordremoth fight was a two-fold effort between the Pact and the Commander. The Mouth fight occurs simultaneously with the Hearts and Minds chapter, splitting Mordremoth's attention. Once inside, the Commander figured out how beat it by turning thoughts against it, and making allies out of its illusions.

 

In the fight against Balthazar you had Sohothin, which was rekindled from the War God's own power. Theres also the fact that Gods are not indestructible, even at the height of their power. And it was clear that Balthazar was only at a fraction of his previous power, and his entire army preoccupied with the Awakened forces.

 

Its clear the Commander is always at a disadvantage, and has to leverage everything they can find to just to get an opening on their opponent. Even then the fight can easily be lost, and the only reason it looks easy is because the story has to advance that way. But the bulk of campaign is spent gathering allies and weakening the enemy; so by the end the Commander isn't following some sliding power scale (as is typical in most Fantasy stories), but wins by a combination of strategy and luck.

 

I know most people write it off as a story thing- But Joko's banter and "I win" speech manages to near perfectly encapsulate the Commander as a tour de force; always just barely snatching victory, but never without cost or consequence. As fantastical the Tyrian universe might be, its grounded in a reality thats a lot more sensible then it appears. After all, in a world filled with monsters, wizards, empires and armies..... none of these things are what won the Battle for Middle Earth. The most powerful force since the old gods was not defeated in pitched combat, the clashing of magic, or even the folly of arrogance.... but by 2 Hobbits on a suicide mission into his back yard, because they were too unimportant to matter.

[Shostie.6435]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> Zhaitan took a fleet of airships and supply lines across all of Orr.

Killing Zhaitan could have been more epic...if you weren't limited to watching it from an airship.

 

> Mordremoth blew up said fleet of airships about five minutes, so the pact built alliances with the Itzel and Nuhoch and marched hundreds of troops through Dragon's Stand. Without this giant distraction, the commando mission into the mind of Mordremoth would not have been possible.

The "distraction" should have been the main attraction.

 

> Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

 

> None of these were solo affairs, they were a coordinated effort.

It's a shame they aren't presented that way.

[asterix.9614]

We only won because friendship is magic, just pretend GW2 living story is one giant ongoing anime.....

[Hesacon.8735]

> @"Shostie.6435" said:

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > Zhaitan took a fleet of airships and supply lines across all of Orr.

> Killing Zhaitan could have been more epic...if you weren't limited to watching it from an airship.

 

Oh it certainly could have been more epic, but that doesn't change the fact it was a team effort. Throughout the instance, you can see other airships locked in combat with Zhaitan's Champions.

 

> > Mordremoth blew up said fleet of airships about five minutes, so the pact built alliances with the Itzel and Nuhoch and marched hundreds of troops through Dragon's Stand. Without this giant distraction, the commando mission into the mind of Mordremoth would not have been possible.

> The "distraction" should have been the main attraction.

 

That's subjective and is certainly a point that could be argued; but again it doesn't change the fact that it was the full force of the Pact, plus Maguuma allies involved in the two-pronged assault. The NPCs in the instance make several comments about the battle in Dragon's Stand.

 

> > Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

> Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

 

The commander makes remarks about Kralkatorrik attacking Balthazar (he's also attacking you because let's face it, he's a jerk), but ultimately he needs you to win because Balthazar has him on the ropes after using his War Beast. Kralkatorrik does do damage throughout the battles in Kodash Bazaar.

 

Aurene was critical to the fight because she could break Balthazar's shield, which is what he used to defeat the commander 1v1. Vlast was stronger than Aurene, but Balthazar never intended to kill Vlast and didn't intend to kill Aurene either. He wanted to use either of them to finish of Kralkatorrik.

 

> > None of these were solo affairs, they were a coordinated effort.

> It's a shame they aren't presented that way.

 

The narrative of GW2 goes through great lengths to portray things as a coordinated effort. Level 60, 70, and 80 personal story instances are all about assembling the Pact, organizing the assault through Orr, and into Arah that defeats Zhaitan. The second half of LW2 and all of HoT is organizing (then reorganizing) Pact forces to fight Mordremoth.

 

PoF is the weakest from the perspective of "team effort," but arguably Balthazar is the weakest of the three enemies (he does have freedom of movement in ways Zhaitan and Mordremoth don't have, and could do a lot of damage to Tyria). Even then, a third of PoF is organizing Joko's army to fight Balthazar.

 

In LW4 episode 4, we're starting the process of assembling a team to fight Kralkatorrik. We don't know if or when we'll fight him, but presumably if we were it's at the end of LW5 or during the next expansion. So the rest of LW4 and at least most of LW5 will be about building _that_ team, unless the narrative changes directions.

[Lavith.8930]

> @"Shostie.6435" said:

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

 

> > Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

> Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

 

Actually you can see Kralkatorrik fighting during the fight against balthazar.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Lavith.8930" said:

> > @"Shostie.6435" said:

> > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

>

> > > Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

> > Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

>

> Actually you can see Kralkatorrik fighting during the fight against balthazar.

>

>

He is during the Warbeast battle, not in the actual 1 vs 1 fight.

 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Lavith.8930" said:

> > > @"Shostie.6435" said:

> > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> >

> > > > Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

> > > Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

> >

> > Actually you can see Kralkatorrik fighting during the fight against balthazar.

> >

> >

> He is during the Warbeast battle, not in the actual 1 vs 1 fight.

>

 

you mean the one where commander dies?

 

or the one after warbeast is destroyed? (from what I recall kralk keeps bombarding that platform even after warbeast itself is wrecked)

 

btw as for vlast being oneshotted by balthazar - it is not true - before we even arrive on scene vlast was involved in combat against the god of war. at least as long as it takes you to defeat the herald. and the killing blow happens only because vlast decides to sacrifice himself to safe commander.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

I want kill dragons again :(

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Lavith.8930" said:

> > > > @"Shostie.6435" said:

> > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > >

> > > > > Balthazar we were being assisted by both an Elder Dragon and the granddaughter of an Elder Dragon after losing a "1v1 me bro" fight. We also hijacked Joko's army to fight Balthazar's.

> > > > Kralkatorrik did not assist you during the Balthazar fight and Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

> > >

> > > Actually you can see Kralkatorrik fighting during the fight against balthazar.

> > >

> > >

> > He is during the Warbeast battle, not in the actual 1 vs 1 fight.

> >

>

> you mean the one where commander dies?

>

> or the one after warbeast is destroyed? (from what I recall kralk keeps bombarding that platform even after warbeast itself is wrecked)

>

> btw as for vlast being oneshotted by balthazar - it is not true - before we even arrive on scene vlast was involved in combat against the god of war. at least as long as it takes you to defeat the herald. and the killing blow happens only because vlast decides to sacrifice himself to safe commander.

 

During Beast of War, Kralkatorrik fights back. During to kill a god, he doesn’t.

[Maikimaik.1974]

> @"Shostie.6435" said:

> Aurene was still a whelp, presumably much weaker than her older brother who was one-shot by Balthazar.

 

You're forgetting that Aurene absorbed some of Mordremoth's magic when he died.

 

[sorudo.9054]

what i think is a pity is that all we get is the same old crap, killing minions of an overlord that barely does anything new, rather, being more and more annoying. (i am looking at you snipers)

morth was a lame fight, killing someone in the mind and making it a frog is a really cheap way to fight a dragon. (i never even got to see him)

zaithen is even worse, i expected an actual battle but all we got is "keep the ship save" while really doing nothing special.

now we have balthazar, someone we had to actually fight but are forced to use some lame mechanics to involve aurene, a buzz killer for sure.

and let me guess, the next expac is yet another lame excuse of a fight where for some reason you're not actually fighting a dragon?

 

i want an expac where we get enemies unlike what we have seen, fight an enemy we have never seen in any MMO.

what i like to see is an actual evolvement in MMO industry, a story that goes deeper then anything we had before (which is, TBH, not that difficult).

make actual dynamic events that has some true consequences, enemies that can't be killed by just brainlessly nuking them, a story that makes you choose the hard choices _during_ a conversation (so not with the lame text choices, that's so 2004)

 

really Anet, do you want a good game or yet another failure like the rest of the hundreds of failed experiments?

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

 

>

> really Anet, do you want a good game or yet another failure like the rest of the hundreds of failed experiments?

 

This "failure" has been going strong for more than 6 years now, with 2 expansions. Don't confuse your opinion for the opinion of the GW2 community. You're certainly not mirroring mine (except for the Zhaitan fight; that one is kind of lame, at least in the gameplay aspect of it).

[sorudo.9054]

> @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

>

> >

> > really Anet, do you want a good game or yet another failure like the rest of the hundreds of failed experiments?

>

> This "failure" has been going strong for more than 6 years now, with 2 expansions. Don't confuse your opinion for the opinion of the GW2 community. You're certainly not mirroring mine (except for the Zhaitan fight; that one is kind of lame, at least in the gameplay aspect of it).

 

both lotro and WoW have better ideas for an end boss yet they are ancient old stories, GW2 has end bosses even a child's book doesn't do anymore because it's getting boring.

so yeah, a failure, if it is going strong why is it that in any game outside GW2 they call it a joke, a mistake, a failure of a game.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> >

> > >

> > > really Anet, do you want a good game or yet another failure like the rest of the hundreds of failed experiments?

> >

> > This "failure" has been going strong for more than 6 years now, with 2 expansions. Don't confuse your opinion for the opinion of the GW2 community. You're certainly not mirroring mine (except for the Zhaitan fight; that one is kind of lame, at least in the gameplay aspect of it).

>

> both lotro and WoW have better ideas for an end boss yet they are ancient old stories, GW2 has end bosses even a child's book doesn't do anymore because it's getting boring.

> so yeah, a failure, if it is going strong why is it that in any game outside GW2 they call it a joke, a mistake, a failure of a game.

 

Why are you playing gw 2 then?

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> >

> > >

> > > really Anet, do you want a good game or yet another failure like the rest of the hundreds of failed experiments?

> >

> > This "failure" has been going strong for more than 6 years now, with 2 expansions. Don't confuse your opinion for the opinion of the GW2 community. You're certainly not mirroring mine (except for the Zhaitan fight; that one is kind of lame, at least in the gameplay aspect of it).

>

> both lotro and WoW have better ideas for an end boss yet they are ancient old stories, GW2 has end bosses even a child's book doesn't do anymore because it's getting boring.

> so yeah, a failure, if it is going strong why is it that in any game outside GW2 they call it a joke, a mistake, a failure of a game.

 

I'd say the fact that this game is still in existence and the fact that there are no signs of it shutting down anytime soon (there's plenty of development planned, for more than a year into the future) are both stronger arguments than the opinions of people who play other MMO's.

 

I'm not saying that there is no merit to your perspective (though I don't fully agree with it either), just that it doesn't seem to matter to the continued existence of this game. And considering this is a non-subscription game, that means there is a large enough community that keeps investing in the game as well. Also not an easy argument to dismiss. You might not like that or think it is undeserved, but facts don't care about opinions.

[Blocki.4931]

Lotro has a huge fanbase because it belongs to one of the largest IPs in existence? Ever thought about that? lol GW2 only has GW1 and itself. Wow is literally the biggest MMO out there and has been pretty consistent at that, though sales are somewhat dipping, they still go up all the way every expac that hits. Makes little sense comparing GW to it, we are small fish that is doing accordingly, with a slight tip towards being above average. The story is good enough for what it is, GW2 is marketed to casuals, that is one of the main appeals. A six year old could understand it, you can't have difficult story bosses outside of optional challenge modes.