SkyShroud.2865 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > Sad. > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person and likewise, that doesn't reflect very well about your argument if you have to resolve to this. > > Well no, because it's not. You're complaining about this, well then 80 level boosts (which many games have now) should be considered pay to win, because in order to do well in WvW you have to be level 80 and have everything unlocked. You can get to 80 instantly on some people, but you have play through the game to get to 80 on another. Pretty sure most 80s will be most 40th level characters, thus you could call the 80th level boost, which is just a shortcut, a pay to win mechanic, but most don't. Instead we're calling a server transfer a mechanic. > > And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. > > The biggest, most dominant servers are closed anyway and have been for ages. You can't transfer to Blackgate for example, so I don't know how you think pay to win applies in this case. > > Everyone has to level their own character up. Some people may go faster, but they're not going instantly or even much faster. Pay to win simply has a different definition than you're using to most people. That's why no one has ever brought this up before. Add to this the fact that the people MOST aggrieved by free server transfers would be the WvW crowd. The very playerbase you're claiming is pay to win if you charge for server transfers. In this particular instance the WvW playerbase actually wants paid server transfers to prevent cheating and spying and instant band wagon hopping which would destroy WvW altogether. > > Nope, not pay to win. Nothing you can do instantly by paying. Your side winning has very little to do with the game over all. At one time it had almost nothing to do with it, now you'll get some pips faster, but that's it. How anyone can say this is pay to win is beyond me and if it was, we'd have seen this argument long before now. Unfortunately, there are people who bought up several items on the item shop up as pay to win, I guess you are just not aware? Of course, being on gw2 bias, people will argue them as "pay to convenience" but really, if you google search on the internet, you can easily come up with thread about how "pay for convenience" and "p2w" are just the same coin. You are now narrowing you definition to "instant" elsewhere other posts (regardless of posters) did mention about considerable "pace" aka "grind" as p2w. It seems your definition is also different from those who shared same opinion that transfer isn't p2w. Do you see there is a difference of acceptance there? Right, I have to edit this paragraph in. You also mentioned "most" people. The illogical part is you don't even recognize the difference of acceptance between you and your fellow people who say that transfer isn't p2w. How can you claim you belong to the "most"? In reality, you and all these people are not of the same sides, it just happen you and them share one common point, that's all. You don't share the same definition as them. I would advise you to argue in your own perspective than try to bring them all in to support your argument. It is quite obvious from this perspective that many of you normalized p2w. If there is a scale where non-p2w is at the left and p2w is at the right. You guys are in reality not on the extreme left. You guys are somewhere close to that side but not at the end. For me or non-gw2 bias players, anything that is not extreme left, it simply contains p2w elements while the extreme right means full p2w. Here is the problem, you who are not at the extreme end decide it isn't p2w, that is same as normalizing p2w elements while not knowing you are already normalizing it. Well, such sociological acceptance is a good thing for businesses but not a good thing for the mmo gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate.3927 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > How many times do I need to explain to you... Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” then you already lost. You can’t even understand that calling server transfer mechanics “pay to win” is implying that arenanet created a service to scam players out of money in hope to “win” something. If you’re not going to bother doing your own reading, and make a minimal effort to learn about this topic, then I’m not going to do it for you. If you’ve spent at least 1/4 of the time you do in this thread for looking up the topic, then you wouldn’t need to have things over explained... Again, I present to you a fact of EA getting called out for “pay to win” practices and then EA changing the cash only item to a game earned item. You have nothing, and only want to “win” some argument you made in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > @"Nate.3927" said: > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. Of course, b2p model is abit grey here. If you subject the stage before expansion, then it isn't p2w but with the expansion and the players from two different accessibility (of expansion) can play with each other, than it is p2w between these two different groups of players. Before you can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? The definition is quite simple, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > The definition is quite simple, really. You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > > > The definition is quite simple, really. > > You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. > > You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. > > It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" I put up your articles in another commununity, non-gw2 bias and here is what one said. Don't worry, I don't micro quote things like you, I quote the entire sentence, this is what the uni had me to do when writing thesis. We don't quote things out of context. > The lawmakers are most definitely focused on the gambling aspect, in that you pay x amount of money to get random items that may or may not help progress the game. However, it's the pay to win model that is encouraging people to buy those randomized loot crates in the first place. > It's not the pay to win model that's being targeted by lawmakers, it's the idea that you can continuously purchase randomized pay to win items with no limit. Told ya, it is the gambling aspect but you insist is not. You insist p2w itself. Sigh. I believe others already presented why they see servers transfer as p2w but to you, it doesn't consider as one, you want something more. It is quite clear as day that you normalized the p2w elements and accept it as it is thus don't view it as one. You don't see it as so even you are told so, is fine, we can agree to disagree. However, you have been more than once trying to discredit and attack the character of a individual, even defaming. Resorting to such is not what a respectable person will do. Honestly I do believe I can report you but I wouldn't resort to that, I would want to leave it as a example for others to see. 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Swagger.1459 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > > > > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > > > > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > > > > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > > > > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > > > > > The definition is quite simple, really. > > > > You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. > > > > You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. > > > > It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" > > I put up your articles in another commununity, non-gw2 bias and here is what one said. Don't worry, I don't micro quote things like you, I quote the entire sentence, this is what the uni had me to do when writing thesis. We don't quote things out of context. > > > The lawmakers are most definitely focused on the gambling aspect, in that you pay x amount of money to get random items that may or may not help progress the game. However, it's the pay to win model that is encouraging people to buy those randomized loot crates in the first place. > > > It's not the pay to win model that's being targeted by lawmakers, it's the idea that you can continuously purchase randomized pay to win items with no limit. > > Told ya, it is the gambling aspect but you insist is not. You insist p2w itself. Sigh. > > I believe others already presented why they see servers transfer as p2w but to you, it doesn't consider as one, you want something more. It is quite clear as day that you normalized the p2w elements and accept it as it is thus don't view it as one. You don't see it as so even you are told so, is fine, we can agree to disagree. However, you have been more than once trying to discredit and attack the character of a individual, even defaming. Resorting to such is not what a respectable person will do. Honestly I do believe I can report you but I wouldn't resort to that, I would want to leave it as a example for others to see. I really don't know how many more times you need this explained to you... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 Despite costing $99.95 in Australia, Battlefront II also uses micro-transactions that allow players to pay real money for in-game "crystals". These can then be traded for advantages in the game's competitive multiplayer network. “In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.” “In response to growing attention, Electronic Arts announced that it has removed the micro transactions feature from Battlefront II.” https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/starwars/battlefront/battlefront-2/news/pre-launch-update “This means that the option to purchase crystals in the game is now offline, and all progression will be earned through gameplay. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game.” https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/16/16668218/star-wars-battlefront-2-microtransactions-removed “purchase crystals in order to unlock ability upgrades and new characters” https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#36d361f47cbc ”not only were microtransactions stripped out of a game like Battlefront 2, but it called into question the predatory practices of the entire industry.” “It’s encouraging purchases not just to look cool with skins, but to actually fight better with flat stat boosts.” https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics “EA has completely revamped Star Wars: Battlefront 2 as part of an effort to respond to longstanding player grievances and to remove the pay-to-win mechanics” “It just meant that players couldn’t literally buy their way to victory using real cash.” “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay (you keep access to any Star Cards you already had). All heroes and hero ships are now unlocked from the start.” PAY TO WIN ADVANTAGES EXPLAINED IN A SIMPLE MANNER “buffs, weapons, or capabilities” “ability upgrades” “fight better with flat stat boosts” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > > > > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > > > > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > > > > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > > > > > > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > > > > > > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > > > > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > > > > > > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > > > > > > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > > > > > > > The definition is quite simple, really. > > > > > > You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. > > > > > > You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. > > > > > > It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" > > > > I put up your articles in another commununity, non-gw2 bias and here is what one said. Don't worry, I don't micro quote things like you, I quote the entire sentence, this is what the uni had me to do when writing thesis. We don't quote things out of context. > > > > > The lawmakers are most definitely focused on the gambling aspect, in that you pay x amount of money to get random items that may or may not help progress the game. However, it's the pay to win model that is encouraging people to buy those randomized loot crates in the first place. > > > > > It's not the pay to win model that's being targeted by lawmakers, it's the idea that you can continuously purchase randomized pay to win items with no limit. > > > > Told ya, it is the gambling aspect but you insist is not. You insist p2w itself. Sigh. > > > > I believe others already presented why they see servers transfer as p2w but to you, it doesn't consider as one, you want something more. It is quite clear as day that you normalized the p2w elements and accept it as it is thus don't view it as one. You don't see it as so even you are told so, is fine, we can agree to disagree. However, you have been more than once trying to discredit and attack the character of a individual, even defaming. Resorting to such is not what a respectable person will do. Honestly I do believe I can report you but I wouldn't resort to that, I would want to leave it as a example for others to see. > > I really don't know how many more times you need this explained to you... > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > Despite costing $99.95 in Australia, Battlefront II also uses micro-transactions that allow players to pay real money for in-game "crystals". These can then be traded for advantages in the game's competitive multiplayer network. > > “In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.” > “In response to growing attention, Electronic Arts announced that it has removed the micro transactions feature from Battlefront II.” > > https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/starwars/battlefront/battlefront-2/news/pre-launch-update > “This means that the option to purchase crystals in the game is now offline, and all progression will be earned through gameplay. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game.” > > https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/16/16668218/star-wars-battlefront-2-microtransactions-removed > > “purchase crystals in order to unlock ability upgrades and new characters” > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#36d361f47cbc > ”not only were microtransactions stripped out of a game like Battlefront 2, but it called into question the predatory practices of the entire industry.” > “It’s encouraging purchases not just to look cool with skins, but to actually fight better with flat stat boosts.” > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > “EA has completely revamped Star Wars: Battlefront 2 as part of an effort to respond to longstanding player grievances and to remove the pay-to-win mechanics” > “It just meant that players couldn’t literally buy their way to victory using real cash.” > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay (you keep access to any Star Cards you already had). All heroes and hero ships are now unlocked from the start.” > > PAY TO WIN ADVANTAGES EXPLAINED IN A SIMPLE MANNER > “buffs, weapons, or capabilities” > “ability upgrades” > “stat boosts” > Oh, so now we back at p2w definition, you gave up on your lawmaker interpretation? Fine, I will go along with it. Like I have already mentioned, those are the p2w items subjected to the involved game, that itself shouldn't be used as a definition across board. All they did is explaining what are the p2w things in that game. Why not you show me another article not related to that game, tell me what are the p2w in that game and are they same as the your current choice of game? I can tell you they are not the same. Your definition cannot be used across all games, is that really a definition? 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Swagger.1459 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > > > > > > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > > > > > > > > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > > > > > > > > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > > > > > > > > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > > > > > > > > > The definition is quite simple, really. > > > > > > > > You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. > > > > > > > > You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. > > > > > > > > It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" > > > > > > I put up your articles in another commununity, non-gw2 bias and here is what one said. Don't worry, I don't micro quote things like you, I quote the entire sentence, this is what the uni had me to do when writing thesis. We don't quote things out of context. > > > > > > > The lawmakers are most definitely focused on the gambling aspect, in that you pay x amount of money to get random items that may or may not help progress the game. However, it's the pay to win model that is encouraging people to buy those randomized loot crates in the first place. > > > > > > > It's not the pay to win model that's being targeted by lawmakers, it's the idea that you can continuously purchase randomized pay to win items with no limit. > > > > > > Told ya, it is the gambling aspect but you insist is not. You insist p2w itself. Sigh. > > > > > > I believe others already presented why they see servers transfer as p2w but to you, it doesn't consider as one, you want something more. It is quite clear as day that you normalized the p2w elements and accept it as it is thus don't view it as one. You don't see it as so even you are told so, is fine, we can agree to disagree. However, you have been more than once trying to discredit and attack the character of a individual, even defaming. Resorting to such is not what a respectable person will do. Honestly I do believe I can report you but I wouldn't resort to that, I would want to leave it as a example for others to see. > > > > I really don't know how many more times you need this explained to you... > > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > Despite costing $99.95 in Australia, Battlefront II also uses micro-transactions that allow players to pay real money for in-game "crystals". These can then be traded for advantages in the game's competitive multiplayer network. > > > > “In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.” > > “In response to growing attention, Electronic Arts announced that it has removed the micro transactions feature from Battlefront II.” > > > > https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/starwars/battlefront/battlefront-2/news/pre-launch-update > > “This means that the option to purchase crystals in the game is now offline, and all progression will be earned through gameplay. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game.” > > > > https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/16/16668218/star-wars-battlefront-2-microtransactions-removed > > > > “purchase crystals in order to unlock ability upgrades and new characters” > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#36d361f47cbc > > ”not only were microtransactions stripped out of a game like Battlefront 2, but it called into question the predatory practices of the entire industry.” > > “It’s encouraging purchases not just to look cool with skins, but to actually fight better with flat stat boosts.” > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > “EA has completely revamped Star Wars: Battlefront 2 as part of an effort to respond to longstanding player grievances and to remove the pay-to-win mechanics” > > “It just meant that players couldn’t literally buy their way to victory using real cash.” > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay (you keep access to any Star Cards you already had). All heroes and hero ships are now unlocked from the start.” > > > > PAY TO WIN ADVANTAGES EXPLAINED IN A SIMPLE MANNER > > “buffs, weapons, or capabilities” > > “ability upgrades” > > “stat boosts” > > > > Oh, so now we back at p2w definition, you gave up on your lawmaker interpretation? > > Fine, I will go along with it. > > Like I have already mentioned, those are the p2w items subjected to the involved game, that itself shouldn't be used as a definition across board. All they did is explaining what are the p2w things in that game. Why not you show me another article not related to that game, tell me what are the p2w in that game and are they same as the your current choice of game? I can tell you they are not the same. > > Your definition cannot be used across all games, is that really a definition? I don’t know what the issue is here... so you’re not going to bother to read and learn about this topic and need me to do it all for you? It’s pretty simple to find articles discussing that lawmakers are trying to regulate predatory practices by gaming companies... I did my part, and took extra time to show you, but the rest is on you. And if you’re not going to bother to make an effort then oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Nate.3927" said: > I'm not the person you're quoting, but I'm on the side that feels paid server transfers is not P2W. If you can reach T1 and stay there the only thing you will get is boredom since no 1 and 2 will always fight each other and it's just the 3rd server rotating and probably not being able to match no 1 and 2 in terms of raw numbers. So really its a 1v1 fight forever with the third server acting as a minor distraction. For me winning is about having fun. Whether I win/lose the fight as long as I had fun, that is winning. So it's preferable for my server to move up and down and get varied matchups from week to week. It doesn't really matter where you/your server are officially ranked if you're just bored the entire time. I'm really not trying to be rude here but you didn't actually answer the question I was asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamurabi.7890 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? That depends on how you define transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? it is, but it's not because I have interwebz links that says it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? > > it is, but it's not because I have interwebz links that says it's not. You mean, as in not winning currently? Because statistically they'll soon win a match, reacquire their lost fairweathers and go on another streak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? > > > > it is, but it's not because I have interwebz links that says it's not. > > You mean, as in not winning currently? Because statistically they'll soon win a match, reacquire their lost fairweathers and go on another streak. > Very true! It would seem that winning does matter to some people and transferring to bg is a common agenda, which is why we always get a thread every month or so that they need to let their friends, families, and dogs into the server. I was just making fun of this thread for the endless debate of what winning actually is. See, they're winning, but they're not winning because they could be making more gold in pve. (Which isn't winning either), but hey! I did not intend to contradict your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? > > > > > > it is, but it's not because I have interwebz links that says it's not. > > > > You mean, as in not winning currently? Because statistically they'll soon win a match, reacquire their lost fairweathers and go on another streak. > > > > I was just making fun of this thread for the endless debate of what winning actually is. See, they're winning, but they're not winning because they could be making more gold in pve. (Which isn't winning either), but hey! I did not intend to contradict your post. And I was quoting through your post to address the general thread about a statistical anomaly you'd reminded me of xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? > > > > > > > > it is, but it's not because I have interwebz links that says it's not. > > > > > > You mean, as in not winning currently? Because statistically they'll soon win a match, reacquire their lost fairweathers and go on another streak. > > > > > > > > I was just making fun of this thread for the endless debate of what winning actually is. See, they're winning, but they're not winning because they could be making more gold in pve. (Which isn't winning either), but hey! I did not intend to contradict your post. > > And I was quoting through your post to address the general thread about a statistical anomaly you'd reminded me of xD Damn. Gg wp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > All those people who'd drop $35 in an eyeblink to transfer to BG, if they could, aren't doing so to win? Their side wins. What do they actually get out of their side winning though. Anet said before the game launched WvW was never meant to be balanced. That's the way it was designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I think the divide in this thread comes from the fact taht some people see winning a week in WvW as winning. Thus pay to win. However, even people that don't play WvW at all win if your side wins, by that logic. It's not something that furthers your goals in the game, except for now, you might go faster with regards to certain rewards with pips. However, I could make an argument that I get more rewards when I'm hopelessly outnumbered and I get the outnumber buff and it's advantageous to be on the side that's going to lose. I've progressed myself more on weeks we were losing than when we were winning. Thus the argument is further muddied. WvW has no personal leaderboard, so you never win. Your server does. Therefore, not pay to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. > > Does the competitive advantage have to be a 100 percent guarantee of victory or can it just be a significantly increased chance of victory than would otherwise have been the case? > > Let's say I decide to pay to transfer from a server that's currently losing most of its matchups to a server that's currently dominating almost all of its matchups. I haven't bought a 100 percent chance of victory but I have bought a much greater chance of victory than I had beforehand. > > I suspect, based on the stance you've taken thus far, that you will say something like "well your team may win but you don't individually win." Am I correct in my assumption? The problem is you're equating a side winning with you winning. It's not like that in WvW. You can be in the winning side and get nothing for it. I've been on the winning side and gotten nothing out of it in WvW. One of the major complaints you'll here from WvW people is that winning is meaningless and it's true. The fact is it changes nothing in a 1v1 fight. Suppose you sucked, never WvW, ran into WvW 1 time and your side ends up winning. Even if it's not one of the best sides. Nah, winning in WvW has nothing to do with pay to win because no one person is going to win or lose the game for anyone. It's a huge group effort. It's like saying we only beat Dragonstand because some people had ascended gear. Your side comes in first. You haven't won anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > The problem is you're equating a side winning with you winning. It's not like that in WvW. Isn't it though? WvW is a team based game mode, not a dueling server. If my team wins I win if my team loses I lose. This is the way of all team based games I've ever played even real life team sports. Are you saying that individuals paying for team based competitive advantages can't ever be considered to be paying to win? >You can be in the winning side and get nothing for it. Would you say that your definition of "pay to win" could be stated as " paying for personal power from a cash shop in order to win an even greater material reward in the game?" >Your side comes in first. You haven't won anything. It seems to me like you're using the language "win anything" interchangeably with "get nothing for it" and it's pretty confusing to me because I'm not sure if in this instance you mean that when your team wins the game you haven't won the game or if you mean when your team wins the game you don't get anything you personally value for being on the winning team. Which did you mean here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > The problem is you're equating a side winning with you winning. It's not like that in WvW. > > Isn't it though? WvW is a team based game mode, not a dueling server. If my team wins I win if my team loses I lose. This is the way of all team based games I've ever played even real life team sports. > > Are you saying that individuals paying for team based competitive advantages can't ever be considered to be paying to win? > So you mean like how people pay through contracts to get a good player drafted onto their team in baseball, american football, football (soccer to us American savages) or hockey? Aren't they essentially paying these players money to get them onto their team with the hopes of the team winning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the last time winning meant something... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start learning about this topic... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You tweaking logic really hard here now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, discrediting again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But how is that related to the article before your's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The confusion is on your part… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ME... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INFO FROM SITE... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages._ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _"a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long **no RNG is involved using cash**, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-RNG lootboxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- Pay to win items. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- Gambling Issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting. > > > > > > > > > > > Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w? > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on many levels, literally, even the video in the article mentioned gambling numerous times and here you insist they care about p2w while the fact is, they only care about the random aspect of p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, I quote video out for you, litereally. these are the authorities, literally. I am done with your interpretations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times do I need to explain to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look up various articles on the subject. Lawmakers are trying to tackle many different areas related to how mmos monitize their games.... The topic is multifaceted and you need to actually research... Not hard to look up articles and discussions and read... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You hade zero clue what you’re talking about here... I already provided a clear quote on what describes “pay to win”, you haven’t. All you’ve provided is what’s in your mind and of your own interpretation... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny you can’t even lay out exactly what a 1st place winner “wins” over a second or 3 winner, yet you want to make some argument about transfers being “pay to win”... if all you’ve got is “intangible assets” the you already lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You suppose to convince me so prove it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, those quoted p2w definition is written by the author of article for the game involved, not by the authority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your entire argument at that point is still personal opinion, nothing concrete from so-called authority. Again, do not make up laws for your amusement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > > > the problem with being on the extreme left by your definition is that the game has to be 100% free and nothing can be bought at all. It's like saying that poker tournaments are pay to win because you usually have to pay X amount to enter the tournament. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean I've seen someone claim that buying cosmetics in the gem store is pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong. My definition doesn't mean game has to be free. My definition clearly state "over other players". This means that if every single player spent same amount of money to gain access to the game, it doesn't include "over other players". At that point, everything is still equal. However, if players can spend more money for additional benefits beyond accessing the game and that give them an advantage over other players, that is p2w. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fefore every can play the tournaments, you have to pay first, If not, you cannot play. Therefore, everyone in that tournament is still equal. Unless you are telling me that the people in tournament has to play against people outside of the tournament? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The definition is quite simple, really. > > > > > > > > > > > > You made up this this thread implying that the server transfer service is a “pay to win” option. Therefore, you are implying Anet is trying to scam customers out of money somehow. > > > > > > > > > > > > You didn’t provide any rational info to back up your pay to win claim. You present zero facts for your case. You didn’t provide any burden of proof... It’s your job to present why server transfers in GW2 are indeed “pay to win”, and you clearly haven’t done that. You just want to argue although I provided an outside source that explains exactly what pay to win is... and a game company changing as a result. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is at this point where I feel we need some extra rational input for this topic to clear up your misconceptions, and labeling server transfers as “pay to win”.. which implies that Anet offers a service to scam players of money... @"Gaile Gray.6029" > > > > > > > > > > I put up your articles in another commununity, non-gw2 bias and here is what one said. Don't worry, I don't micro quote things like you, I quote the entire sentence, this is what the uni had me to do when writing thesis. We don't quote things out of context. > > > > > > > > > > > The lawmakers are most definitely focused on the gambling aspect, in that you pay x amount of money to get random items that may or may not help progress the game. However, it's the pay to win model that is encouraging people to buy those randomized loot crates in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > It's not the pay to win model that's being targeted by lawmakers, it's the idea that you can continuously purchase randomized pay to win items with no limit. > > > > > > > > > > Told ya, it is the gambling aspect but you insist is not. You insist p2w itself. Sigh. > > > > > > > > > > I believe others already presented why they see servers transfer as p2w but to you, it doesn't consider as one, you want something more. It is quite clear as day that you normalized the p2w elements and accept it as it is thus don't view it as one. You don't see it as so even you are told so, is fine, we can agree to disagree. However, you have been more than once trying to discredit and attack the character of a individual, even defaming. Resorting to such is not what a respectable person will do. Honestly I do believe I can report you but I wouldn't resort to that, I would want to leave it as a example for others to see. > > > > > > > > I really don't know how many more times you need this explained to you... > > > > > > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386 > > > > Despite costing $99.95 in Australia, Battlefront II also uses micro-transactions that allow players to pay real money for in-game "crystals". These can then be traded for advantages in the game's competitive multiplayer network. > > > > > > > > “In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.” > > > > “In response to growing attention, Electronic Arts announced that it has removed the micro transactions feature from Battlefront II.” > > > > > > > > https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/starwars/battlefront/battlefront-2/news/pre-launch-update > > > > “This means that the option to purchase crystals in the game is now offline, and all progression will be earned through gameplay. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game.” > > > > > > > > https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/16/16668218/star-wars-battlefront-2-microtransactions-removed > > > > > > > > “purchase crystals in order to unlock ability upgrades and new characters” > > > > > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#36d361f47cbc > > > > ”not only were microtransactions stripped out of a game like Battlefront 2, but it called into question the predatory practices of the entire industry.” > > > > “It’s encouraging purchases not just to look cool with skins, but to actually fight better with flat stat boosts.” > > > > > > > > https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics > > > > “EA has completely revamped Star Wars: Battlefront 2 as part of an effort to respond to longstanding player grievances and to remove the pay-to-win mechanics” > > > > “It just meant that players couldn’t literally buy their way to victory using real cash.” > > > > “With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay (you keep access to any Star Cards you already had). All heroes and hero ships are now unlocked from the start.” > > > > > > > > PAY TO WIN ADVANTAGES EXPLAINED IN A SIMPLE MANNER > > > > “buffs, weapons, or capabilities” > > > > “ability upgrades” > > > > “stat boosts” > > > > > > > > > > Oh, so now we back at p2w definition, you gave up on your lawmaker interpretation? > > > > > > Fine, I will go along with it. > > > > > > Like I have already mentioned, those are the p2w items subjected to the involved game, that itself shouldn't be used as a definition across board. All they did is explaining what are the p2w things in that game. Why not you show me another article not related to that game, tell me what are the p2w in that game and are they same as the your current choice of game? I can tell you they are not the same. > > > > > > Your definition cannot be used across all games, is that really a definition? > > > > I don’t know what the issue is here... so you’re not going to bother to read and learn about this topic and need me to do it all for you? > > > > It’s pretty simple to find articles discussing that lawmakers are trying to regulate predatory practices by gaming companies... > > > > I did my part, and took extra time to show you, but the rest is on you. And if you’re not going to bother to make an effort then oh well. > > Wait, you still on the lawmaker topic. Seriously, I already put this up on another community and majority all said the focus is on gambling aspect of p2w. Why can't you accept that you over-interpreted it? > > I am done with you, really. I sincerely advise you to post your said articles in a community of your choice and ask them if your interpretation is correct. I mean since you can't accept me telling you are wrong in your interpretation, if others tell you are wrong, maybe you could accept it. > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > I think the divide in this thread comes from the fact taht some people see winning a week in WvW as winning. Thus pay to win. However, even people that don't play WvW at all win if your side wins, by that logic. It's not something that furthers your goals in the game, except for now, you might go faster with regards to certain rewards with pips. However, I could make an argument that I get more rewards when I'm hopelessly outnumbered and I get the outnumber buff and it's advantageous to be on the side that's going to lose. I've progressed myself more on weeks we were losing than when we were winning. > > > > Thus the argument is further muddied. WvW has no personal leaderboard, so you never win. Your server does. Therefore, not pay to win. > > Hey, you gave a refreshing example, one that others never thought of. I will give you a thumbs up for that. > Here the thing, "winning" is subjective to every individual, depends on perspective. That is why my definition is so board which people claim is vague but isn't vague, it just comprise of everything, be it past or future, made possible via monetary means. The main advantage you gain here is "saving time" over the need to farm. Having more time than others is already an advantage, we don't even need to go to subject like is it a winning server or having more rewards and what's not. > > I am sure plenty of people thought of this, "it would be nice if we have more than 24 hours a day". Having more time simply open a door to lots of opportunities, everything that happened is just the direct or indirect product of the time saved which is what the opportunities here refers to. There were studies made on how people used their time on average. Do you know what big pile of life we spent on (other than sleeping)? Transport aka travelling. Just imagine how much things we could do if we cut the time spent on that. > > If the transfer is not via "gems" but instead through a currency which literally require one to farm for it. I can assure you that WvW will be very different today. Even with what you're saying, can you say with certainty that a winning server will progress someone faster than another server that gets more pips for being outnumbered? It might be a time saver to be on a server that doesn't win, in order to progress faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiawal.2351 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 It's not P2W. Even if you buy gems with real world cash instead gold. But might look like. The gem cost is there to discourage and limit the amount of transfers, though this could be done with a time limit too, 2 months instead 1 week, still could be a worse solution. Since the coverage balance it's chaotic, transfer is a necessity. Without transfer this game mode would have even less players, by far less, many stayed and still play sometimes just because they can move to somewhere else, when the match-up they are, isn't fun to them. These players, mostly experienced veterans, would play other games without the option to transfer. We would have even less life in this game mode. The bad part is that transfers can't fix the coverage balance, because unwanted players will follow those moving, and re-create the same bad context, and there is no way to separate these. A better transfer system is needed, and better match-up system, and the upcoming (unknown when) alliance system includes both, though likely will need further tweaks. Some may transfer to win more bags or progress whatever goals, but is still far from P2W meaning. It's more pay to keep the WvW game mode barely acceptable to yourself, pay to keep the game alive for yourself. Remove this, and many can uninstall, because even with the current 1 transfer per week, barely there is anything left worth playing, the quantity and quality of the fights are extremely low, PPT means nothing, and any hope of things getting better are far away, at an unknown date, that may arrive too late to mean anything (for a lot of us, and the player numbers are already very low) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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