Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Riko.9214" said: > > The degree of exaggeration in OP bypass the actual effect of sigil update so far it breaks beyond the edge of the known universe... > > > > What was described certainly would work well against dummy golems though. > > > > As for actual situations relying on weapon swap has pretty distinct consequences such as reliance on a single weapon setup and strong predictability. > > > > But If you do think what you described can actually work, would be really nice to see a video of you doing that. (double so if it is not an edit-queen one ;) ) > > Why is every single person neglecting to notice that my examples are considering the use of Daredevil Runes? Everything I have said is specifically pointing out the combination of Vision + Daredevil runes + Invigorating Precision. And I will make video of this if the sigil remains unchanged. > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > Deadeye is probably the least of all professions who will benefit from the vision sigil simply because it's an HIT&STEALTH build. > > He casts death judgement and maybe rifle3 and immediately stealth again, he can't afford to stay 3 seconds out of stealth or a good player can easily gap close, land a cc and oneshot the deadeye, so how a deadeye will make a good use of the sigil? > > I will be so happy if a deadeye tries to stay revealed for 3 seconds trying to burst me, i dodge everything and i have a pretty good window to counter attack him. > > > > The classes who will benefit more from the sigil are: > > Revenant, you will love those sword3 hits all crits while the rev is inside your body, and a dodge doesn't cover the full animation, plus sword4. > > Core guards will melt you even more with greatsword2. > > Core warriors or megabane spellbreakers probably substitute of hydromancy on greatsword so when you swap to greatsword you will have all crits coming out of greatsword3 and it's pretty huge, or even for the normal combo bull's charge into greatsword2. > > Power shatter mesmers, the burst is done in 1-2 seconds depending on the player how fast he is to land the burst combo can take even less than 1 second, so having it all crits will make it more consistent and more certain to oneshot. > > Another one could be axe/axe soulbeast probably using both celerity and vision as soon he swaps to axe/axe set and use axe5 in melee range you are ultradead done more than now. > > > > Now i can't think of others in specific, it's a buff to holo as well who can increase the dps by spamming photon forge autos and the other skills. > > > > > > > > 1. Hit & Stealth builds are exactly the kind of builds that will benefit from Vision. > 2. How will he make good use of the sigil? In the same exact way he makes good use of Hidden Killer. > 3. The DE can stay revealed so long as it is safe. This often ends up being quite a bit longer than 3s, especially while traveling in small havoc. Also, not all classes/builds have gap closers or ranged CCs that immediately reach 1500 range. And the DE is not going to get 1 shot when it is life stealing 4k health per second while wearing Valkyrie stats. > 4. You're wrong about Heralds and Power Mirage, they'll still need sustained burst to their jobs. Read my previous post. The thing is, taking daredevil runes over scholar knocks a couple k off your malicious backstab, possibly more after the incoming rework. The difference between a 17k backstab and a 15k stab is life and death to a number of builds that have passive defence procs or can go invuln, heal and turn to one shot the deadeye, so realistically the permastealth build is going to carry on building for the biggest possible hit which means scholar. There's also no reason to build invigorating precision, as the permastealth build only attacks on full health to preserve scholar rune bonuses so would gain nothing from the heals on crit if they play smart, and that build has no DPS and only builds for the spike so no quarter and hidden killer are objectively better choices. So sidestepping my argument by misrepresentation, saying I argued daredevil runes would reduce DPS when I actually said damage, isn't actually terribly relevant either, unfortunately. There are builds that will benefit from vision sigil, but it will be builds like CS/trickery/DE skirmisher builds that have the ini to spam skills in order to heal, and don't rely on already being at full health for the most effective spike. Those sort of builds will likely be running full marauder however, which gives 60% crit chance, will have perma fury and get 20% bonus crit chance from kneeling due to silent scope, which easily gives 100% crit chance making vision sigil unnecessary. I personally run cavalier rings giving me 50% base crit chance and make up the last 10% with the extra precision from be quick or be killed, giving me 100% when bursting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syprus Soulslayer.1640 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Has anyone never ran into a Deadeye that runs this?? It's cacner.... mark, knockdown, 15 stacks of vulner burst, GG. You don't need a lot of power to be effective when you are increasing your targets incoming damage by 225% ( 15% per stack, x15 ).... literally making any defense useless. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riko.9214 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 > @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said: > Has anyone never ran into a Deadeye that runs this?? It's cacner.... mark, knockdown, 15 stacks of vulner burst, GG. You don't need a lot of power to be effective when you are increasing your targets incoming damage by 225% ( 15% per stack, x15 ).... literally making any defense useless. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow Classic. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > >> So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw: > > > > > > > >> * People will log in on their Deadeyes > > > > > > > >> * New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds) > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie > > > > > > > >> * On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played: > > > > > > > >> * Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > >> * Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > >> * Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > >> * So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before, **and double the vitality.** > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build _very_ over powered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wow. > > > > > > > valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use: [hidden killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer "hidden killer") > > > > > > > using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye. > > > > > > > only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deadeye's are going to start choosing this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^ > > > > > > > > > > if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;) > > > > > > > > Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God. > > > > > > > > > > The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally. > > > > > > By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you. > > > > Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it: > > > > All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be. > > > obviously its damageloss over the berserk spvp build. but it is also damageloss over the current valkyre build while being less flexible. > > Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs. > > > a little exaggeration here and there as allways.. > > You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack" **but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released**. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have. > > > what makes you think a deadeye is squishy now? i am pretty sure i already am harder to kill then with the 'upcoming' build you described. i think you just have absolutely no clue about current valk deadeye and what is already possible with it. but seeing that you already panic i am not sure if it would be clever to explain that to you.. > > Other forum users in here are having discussion with actual explanation, which I appreciate. This is how things get figured out, that's why a forum thread is open for discussion. I kind of feel like your statements are very evasive, condescending, and have little to no explanation behind them at all. This is twice now that you've said something like "I'm not going to explain this." If you don't want to explain anything to anyone, why are you involved in a discussion about it? Look at say, monkey's responses. He is taking the time to explain what he is saying. If one's goal is to prove my concerns wrong, or make me realize how wrong I am, it's posts like his that will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syprus Soulslayer.1640 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 ohhh BTW you can't use any skills when knocked down.... so much for counterplay I guess https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockdown Knockdown is a control effect which interrupts and causes the foe to be unable to move or use skills for a short duration. Knocked down foes fall to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > >> So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw: > > > > > > > > >> * People will log in on their Deadeyes > > > > > > > > >> * New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds) > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie > > > > > > > > >> * On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played: > > > > > > > > >> * Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > >> * Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > >> * Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > >> * So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before, **and double the vitality.** > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build _very_ over powered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wow. > > > > > > > > valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use: [hidden killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer "hidden killer") > > > > > > > > using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye. > > > > > > > > only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deadeye's are going to start choosing this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^ > > > > > > > > > > > > if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;) > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally. > > > > > > > > By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you. > > > > > > Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it: > > > > > > All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be. > > > > > obviously its damageloss over the berserk spvp build. but it is also damageloss over the current valkyre build while being less flexible. > > > Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs. > > > > > a little exaggeration here and there as allways.. > > > You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack" **but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released**. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have. > > > > > what makes you think a deadeye is squishy now? i am pretty sure i already am harder to kill then with the 'upcoming' build you described. i think you just have absolutely no clue about current valk deadeye and what is already possible with it. but seeing that you already panic i am not sure if it would be clever to explain that to you.. > > > > > > Other forum users in here are having discussion with actual explanation, which I appreciate. This is how things get figured out, that's why a forum thread is open for discussion. I kind of feel like your statements are very evasive, condescending, and have little to no explanation behind them at all. This is twice now that you've said something like "I'm not going to explain this." If you don't want to explain anything to anyone, why are you involved in a discussion about it? > > Look at say, monkey's responses. He is taking the time to explain what he is saying. If one's goal is to prove my concerns wrong, or make me realize how wrong I am, it's posts like his that will do it. > i just participate to tell you that you need not worry, the deadeye wont be stronger than it is now based on the info we got so far. i understand that you would like an explaination, because how can you know what my knowledge is based on? you cant. but if my build is really better than the one your worried about, would you really like me to explain it in public so that you will face it all over ? sure there is a chance anet might change something, but maybe they dont or it will take too long. i am getting reported so much that anet is surely looking into my account regularly so they should be aware of what i do and if they see an issue in it adress it. if the patch will mess with my sigils, i will explain to you why it is not worth trading any of it for vision. till then please calm down and wait how it really plays out. anet should have really just give examples of runes/sigils no one is using or will be using in advance, unless ofc they want this panic to hype the patch. 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KrHome.1920 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 > @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said: > Has anyone never ran into a Deadeye that runs this?? It's cacner.... mark, knockdown, 15 stacks of vulner burst, GG. You don't need a lot of power to be effective when you are increasing your targets incoming damage by 225% ( 15% per stack, x15 ).... literally making any defense useless. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow Wat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said: > > Has anyone never ran into a Deadeye that runs this?? It's cacner.... mark, knockdown, 15 stacks of vulner burst, GG. You don't need a lot of power to be effective when you are increasing your targets incoming damage by 225% ( 15% per stack, x15 ).... literally making any defense useless. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow > Wat? he is under the illusion that 15 vuln stacks increase your damage by 225%. probably misreading the tooltip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted November 8, 2018 Author Share Posted November 8, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > >> So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw: > > > > > > > > > >> * People will log in on their Deadeyes > > > > > > > > > >> * New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds) > > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil > > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie > > > > > > > > > >> * On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played: > > > > > > > > > >> * Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat > > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > > >> * Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > > >> * Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > > >> * So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before, **and double the vitality.** > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build _very_ over powered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wow. > > > > > > > > > valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use: [hidden killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer "hidden killer") > > > > > > > > > using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye. > > > > > > > > > only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deadeye's are going to start choosing this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you. > > > > > > > > Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it: > > > > > > > > All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be. > > > > > > > obviously its damageloss over the berserk spvp build. but it is also damageloss over the current valkyre build while being less flexible. > > > > Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs. > > > > > > > a little exaggeration here and there as allways.. > > > > You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack" **but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released**. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have. > > > > > > > what makes you think a deadeye is squishy now? i am pretty sure i already am harder to kill then with the 'upcoming' build you described. i think you just have absolutely no clue about current valk deadeye and what is already possible with it. but seeing that you already panic i am not sure if it would be clever to explain that to you.. > > > > > > > > > > Other forum users in here are having discussion with actual explanation, which I appreciate. This is how things get figured out, that's why a forum thread is open for discussion. I kind of feel like your statements are very evasive, condescending, and have little to no explanation behind them at all. This is twice now that you've said something like "I'm not going to explain this." If you don't want to explain anything to anyone, why are you involved in a discussion about it? > > > > Look at say, monkey's responses. He is taking the time to explain what he is saying. If one's goal is to prove my concerns wrong, or make me realize how wrong I am, it's posts like his that will do it. > > > > i just participate to tell you that you need not worry, the deadeye wont be stronger than it is now based on the info we got so far. i understand that you would like an explaination, because how can you know what my knowledge is based on? you cant. but if my build is really better than the one your worried about, would you really like me to explain it in public so that you will face it all over ? sure there is a chance anet might change something, but maybe they dont or it will take too long. i am getting reported so much that anet is surely looking into my account regularly so they should be aware of what i do and if they see an issue in it adress it. if the patch will mess with my sigils, i will explain to you why it is not worth trading any of it for vision. till then please calm down and wait how it really plays out. > > anet should have really just give examples of runes/sigils no one is using or will be using in advance, unless ofc they want this panic to hype the patch. Yeah, you do realize that this isn't about just Deadeye right? If you reread my OP post, it explains what is clearly going to happen with most of the power based burst builds in the game. That isn't some theory crafting or debate, that is definitely 100% actually going to happen. Anyone who has half a grasp on, and who has followed the intra-class meta changes patch patch over the last 6 years, would be able to see what is going to happen when some builds are allowed to maintain Berserker damage output while wearing Valkyrie stats "with absolutely no downside", when other builds aren't able to benefit from this overly strong single sigil power boost at all. What is it that's going to happen? Well it's pretty simple: Right now we have a decent class balance as compared to other metas. Everything has its place with only a few outlier situations that are remarkable enough to demand patching over. But when Vision arrives, it's going to create an immediate divide in the meta where, the classes that can benefit from it will remain strong, and the classes that don't, will be pushed out of viability completely. The worst thing is that the classes who won't benefit from it, are already the classes that struggle, and this is going to make it much worse than it is now. We aren't talking the usual situation here where "1 or 2 classes are a bit OP and need a little nerfing" we are talking about a severely Faultline'ish situation where a big red line is drawn between the classes that can use Vision and the classes that can't. People keep mentioning Celerity, but Celerity is a completely different type of situation. It won't draw a big line between the classes that can or can't use it because every class will be able to greatly benefit from Celerity. So Celerity won't be creating balance issues within the intra-class dynamic, it will just be creating power creep in general. I honestly don't care one way or the other with Celerity other than they should reconsider dropping that 5s of quickness down to something more like 2 or 3s, mainly due to how much concentration and +% boon duration there is in the game nowadays. With the speed of patching that we get, I'd rather avoid the super double vitality berserker meta before it happens, thank you very much. It will only leave us in a situation where even more builds will become too ineffective for use, leaving us with a very small list of viable builds, and that's no fun. You know what? I'll call it out right now. I'm curious to see how accurate inaccurate this will end up being: * Builds that will remain strong: Power Deadeye - Power Warrior/Spellbreaker - Power Holo - Power Soulbeast - Power Reaper - Support FB. * Builds that will remain viable: Various Power Based Thieves - Various Scourges, only because of boon conversions - Power Based Mirages * Builds that are gonna disappear: Power & Condi Guardians - All DHs - All Berserker - All Heralds - Renegade was never around to begin with - Power & Condi Engineers/Scrappers gone - All Rangers & Druids gone - Core Necro see ya - Core Mes & Chronos gone "Not gonna need quickness buffs after Celerity is released" I dunno Chrono might stay semi-viable but I wouldn't put my money on it - Ele see ya, despite people trying to make it work, it won't. The interesting thing here is that the builds that will remain strong are the builds that are already debatably OP! lol. So what this patch is going to do, is make the strong specs even stronger, and make the weak specs even weaker. But it's whatever. I've said what I needed to say and explained it as well as I can. Let's hope I'm wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 So broken specs will be become more broken? meh what's another thing or two to throw into the broken mix at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 It will be interesting to see either way. I still think celerity will benefit CC oriented deadeye more, as with dura runes and acro you have 36% boon duration; that means 5.5 seconds of quickness from marking a target, 6.5ish seconds from the new celerity sigil because of slight of hand dazing on mark, 8ish seconds from flanking strikes for striking from behind with the stolen skill and potentially another 5s from the stolen skill if you're lucky. Usually I don't take flanking strikes as thrill of the crime is better since by resetting mark through swindler's equilibrium and mercy it gives me perma fury, but that's still 10+ seconds of quickness on mark minimum at the start of an engage which will probably justify taking celerity over bloodlust on rifle. I can see how it would be similarly strong for warrior, using the grandmaster trait that grants quickness on hitting an opponent under 50% with a CC and celerity will be very strong as well. Vision with daredevil runes to me will benefit things like staff daredevil and power reaper more, bruiser specs that because of the change will be able to get more tank as you say. I do think ele could benefit from it as well personally, the way attunements work is beneficial for that kind of sigil imo and it could use the extra defense. I also think you've misjudged how good this will be for herald; they can get 78% crit chance with no investment into precision, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to use mostly valk with enough marauder to get 30% ish crit chance before fury to make use of this type of build. I do believe you're correct in that it will make certain builds much stronger, the thing you have to weigh up is that you'd be losing a good chunk of damage from scholar runes and most of your sustained pressure in order to get that tankiness, you'd have to decide whether that's worth it on a build by build basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Most of the boon bunker builds are hard counter to deadeyes. On top of that pure Valk is vulnerable to other thieves, random shots by warriors, any bear/bow ranger, blow up mesmers, evasive mesmers and engis straight up tear it a new one. It is a boutique build that wrecks weak players but any solid player beats the snot out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > >> So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw: > > > > > > > > > > >> * People will log in on their Deadeyes > > > > > > > > > > >> * New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds) > > > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil > > > > > > > > > > >> * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie > > > > > > > > > > >> * On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Seriously, Deadeyes are already debatably overpowered and very ridiculous to deal with. They are ridiculous to the point that only about half the classes in the game even possess mechanics to actually deal with them. Arenanet, if you guys follow through with the Sigil of Vision and release it the way it is now, Deadeyes are going to become absolutely game breaking. Why? Because of how Deadeye is actually played: > > > > > > > > > > >> * Tap a creature or player, or even fall off a tower to enter combat > > > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > > > >> * Burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the Rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > > > >> * Stealth by dodge rolling, which procs the rune of the Daredevil critical > > > > > > > > > > >> * Death's Judgement > > > > > > > > > > >> * Weapon swap is off CD, swap weapons again to proc Sigil of Vision > > > > > > > > > > >> * Heavy burst with that 3s of guaranteed 100% critical hit rate > > > > > > > > > > >> * So on and so forth, infinitely cycling, now with a greater critical hit rate than it had before, **and double the vitality.** > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Some other classes/builds will also have ways to benefit from or debatably exploit the Sigil of Vision, but not to the degree of abuse that the Deadeye will present. Some classes/builds won't benefit from this new powerful effect at all, which is a bad thing. It will present entirely new balance issues where classes/builds that can utilize and benefit from the Sigil of Vision will become much tankier than usual while maintaining their burst, whereas other classes that cannot benefit from the Sigil of Vision, will need to keep wearing their Berserker gear, and miss out on all of that extra vitality. This is going to make certain classes/build _very_ over powered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wow. > > > > > > > > > > valkyre is already the go to set for deadeye and that sigil is wasted because this here is much better and less clunky to use: [hidden killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer "hidden killer") > > > > > > > > > > using vision on rifle means you have to give up another more important sigil. its really not as great as it seems on paper for a deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > only because there is still plenty of berserk deadeyes out there, doesnt mean valkyre is not already better and if they cannot manage with hidden killer they surely wont get their weapon swap timed for their burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also i think the stacks from intelligence lasted longer wich for many will be a nerf when it gets replaced by vision as they window to use the 100% crit is smaller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah my good fellow, I think you have overlooked the depth of what is about to happen on 11/13/2018. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deadeye's are going to start choosing this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over Hidden Killer. I mean... come on man ^^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you think so, unless my sigils effects are changed i dont think my deadeye will put anything else on the rifle for good reason but explaining that would probably cause more trouble than what you expect from the patch ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who believes people are not going to trade Hidden Killer for Vision Sigil so that they can forever damage burst themselves to full health with Valkyrie stats, will be sadly mistaken on 11/13/2018 when they que up wvw and first encounter a Deadeye God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The build you propose would actually be a damage loss over both full zerk scholar with no quarter and full valk scholar with hidden killer, would force me to drop either my rage or force sigil on D/P, and lastly would greatly reduce my window for attacking if the opponent decides to randomly block as I weapon swap. Celerity on rifle will be good for the build when using binding shadows (more limited though since you don't have the ini on that build to spam three round burst) but vision is of little use if you're playing optimally. > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, deadeye is not had to counter. Get up in their face until you force them to waste shadowstep, then while it's on cooldown time a strong CC skill for the end of their dodge roll and spike. The fact they're invisible is irrelevant, they're still CC'd and unable to defend themselves, and even if you don't kill them they will be forced to reset after that. I do this all the time on my own tanky non-stealth deadeye using binding shadows and S/P, if I can do it so can you. > > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to comment on this after rereading it: > > > > > > > > > > All the DE players seem to be insisting "but it's a damage loss so we won't be using this", but I foresee that when players realize what exactly is happening here and shift their playstyles, they're going to find out how powerful the Vision gear combo will be. > > > > > > > > > obviously its damageloss over the berserk spvp build. but it is also damageloss over the current valkyre build while being less flexible. > > > > > Right now DE is purely a high mobility high DPS roamer. But with the changes I have pointed out, it will only lose maybe 12% of it's top DPS for the ability to be not only a roamer, but also a bully bruiser. So you're gonna have a class that has THE best stealth/mobility/disengagement, still with top 3 build damage capability, that is wearing maximum vitality gear, that can life steal 4k+ in 1s with no CDs. > > > > > > > > > a little exaggeration here and there as allways.. > > > > > You guys keep bringing up "disengagements and windows of attack" **but my point is that DE won't be so squishy after Vision is released**. This is going to change the playstyle a bit. And this isn't even to mention if the DE is traveling with a couple other guys who are tossing him protections & stabilities and w/e else. DEs are going to be sustainy, a bit too sustainy for how much stealth/disengage they have. > > > > > > > > > what makes you think a deadeye is squishy now? i am pretty sure i already am harder to kill then with the 'upcoming' build you described. i think you just have absolutely no clue about current valk deadeye and what is already possible with it. but seeing that you already panic i am not sure if it would be clever to explain that to you.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other forum users in here are having discussion with actual explanation, which I appreciate. This is how things get figured out, that's why a forum thread is open for discussion. I kind of feel like your statements are very evasive, condescending, and have little to no explanation behind them at all. This is twice now that you've said something like "I'm not going to explain this." If you don't want to explain anything to anyone, why are you involved in a discussion about it? > > > > > > Look at say, monkey's responses. He is taking the time to explain what he is saying. If one's goal is to prove my concerns wrong, or make me realize how wrong I am, it's posts like his that will do it. > > > > > > > i just participate to tell you that you need not worry, the deadeye wont be stronger than it is now based on the info we got so far. i understand that you would like an explaination, because how can you know what my knowledge is based on? you cant. but if my build is really better than the one your worried about, would you really like me to explain it in public so that you will face it all over ? sure there is a chance anet might change something, but maybe they dont or it will take too long. i am getting reported so much that anet is surely looking into my account regularly so they should be aware of what i do and if they see an issue in it adress it. if the patch will mess with my sigils, i will explain to you why it is not worth trading any of it for vision. till then please calm down and wait how it really plays out. > > > > anet should have really just give examples of runes/sigils no one is using or will be using in advance, unless ofc they want this panic to hype the patch. > > Yeah, you do realize that this isn't about just Deadeye right? If you reread my OP post, it explains what is clearly going to happen with most of the power based burst builds in the game. i do understand that its not just about deadeye. but its the one in your title and i disagree that it will make this specific one better. other specs we will see the burst with valk+vision would be way higher than marauder for sure, but as i said above there is also a downside to this combo as you will have longer periods of no crits, wich will reduce the sustained pressure and turn them more into hit & kite wich can be good at times but its also less flexible. it does already work like that on DE but that is because the kite part is often done in stealth wich is perfect to prepare your next burst, else reducing pressure means your opponent usually will react better to your next burst. panic wins many fights among average players and thats the majority in this game. if you then also for kiting purpose need to swap weapon for a defensive skill, there goes another 10 seconds of no crits. i am not that sure why you think herald would dissapear as well as scrappers (tho i wish scrappers would disappear :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XECOR.2814 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"rng.1024" > > > > Where the Vision is different is that ALL the attacks are guaranteed criticals. So where Intelligence fails by getting eaten up because you full counter and smack 3 clones before hitting the Mirage, the Vision will prevail. Where Intelligence fails from laying symbols with multiple ticks, Vision prevails by allowing the Guardian 3s where every single thing he does is a critical, including 2x symbols, a trap and some GS burst or whatever. That 3s of 100% guaranteed critical is debatably more dangerous than a Berserker build with 75 or 80% crit. Anyone who seriously pvps in this game or other games like it, should know that "Burst has nothing to do with DPS." @"Jugglemonkey.8741" mentioned a loss in DPS, but in most cases competitively, that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we are talking about DEs, Power Mirage, Killshot Warriors, ect ect, is the burst, not its damage output over the course of 60s. If that 3s of burst is granting 100% critical hit rate, if it can down you in that 3s flat after cycling through a defensive routine, it doesn't need sustained damage or any form of DPS outside of that 3s burst. The 3s of burst from Vision over the 2s from Hidden Killer will likely make up for the damage loss, but now additionally add enormous life steal factor. > > > > The best example I can stress here is back when I used to main Bunker Druid in spvp. I would often get the top damage stat in matches, even though people would widely acknowledge Bunker Druids as a build that deals no damage. I found this interesting and I had a couple buddies run a test with me. We had two Bunker Druids deal damage to each other over the course of 2 minutes in a 1v1. On a different node we had a couple D/P Daredevils in a 1v1 for 2 minutes. At the end of the test, the Bunkers had dealt much more damage to each other than the Thieves had dealt to each other. Realistically the Thieves are "waiting for that right moment" to land a BURST. They don't DPS each other, but when that burst lands, someone dies. In the case of Deadeye this is particularly true. All the DE does is sneak around and then burst and then disappear and then sneak around and then burst. Is there something I'm not understanding here? It seems that the DE can afford to sneak around waiting for that 3s burst while he uses crit on dodge roll stealths. During that dodge roll phase, he can easily heal to full without ever using his actual heal skill. > > > > Jugglemonkey had mentioned the loss in damage from Scholar and the smaller window for attack. I see what you mean, but I guess we'll have to see. To put this into a different perspective, my forecast is: Slightly lower damage Deadeyes, that still deal plenty lethal damage, that might take a little longer to kill you, but now life steal so much that you can't actually kill them unless they lag or get very lazy. > > Which is my point - if you don't avoid the burst now it's the same result. With these sigils they will be tankier with a burst every 18 seconds (again, they need to play rifle/rifle or pistol/pistol to get it every 9 seconds which has tons of counters) and hit like a noodle inbetween. They will have low critrate between these 18 sec bursts with this build, so their wet noodle slaps will heal them the base value - even marauder thieves today get more lifesteal sustain. > > We already have boons, LoS, toughness amulets, cc, blinds, weakness, blocks, invulns, dodges, evades, range and reflects to stay safe these 3 out of 18 seconds, we can eat autos for the last 15. I don't see how this will be any different than current SB, Deadeye, Fresh Air Weaver or core Guardian burst - either you avoid it or it's over. This way you will have 15 seconds of breathing room inbetween assaults atleast. Not to mention many professions will overcap on crit chance - so them getting the last 7% in order to get 100% anyway isn't going to be why they win. > > As for the rune, dodges are limited. Thieves want more they need to spec acro = even less damage. Vigor can be ripped. Weakness is a thing. Baiting still works. > > And tbf, I welcome any change that make guardian symbols viable again. Nothing you say applies to necro against deadeye. It is free bag now already for deadeyes. It will be less effort than gathering herbs after patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser.9873 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 DE don't need a boost anyway. Malicious perma-stealth backstab build! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 this just further reinforces what most of us know; anet is severely out of touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezerker.2379 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > So this is what's going to happen on 11/13/2018 in wvw: > * People will log in on their Deadeyes > * New (Sigil of Vision): Critically strike an enemy for 3 seconds after swapping to this weapon in combat. (Cooldown: 9 Seconds) > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Daredevil > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valkyrie > * They begin selecting https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision over https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer > * On that day, a new breed of double vitality virtually unkillable non stop damage burst healing Deadeyes will be born, that maintain or even surpass their rate of critical hits on bursts while coming out of stealth. And the forums will rain salt unlike anything the design team has seen before in the entire 6 years of Guild Wars 2's longevity. > Deadeyes are already running valk, and many builds used sigil of intelligence already when NOT running hidden killer. If you are serk or marauder, you ran mal 7, rifled' peeps down, then weapon swapped and mal backstabbed with the +ferocity trait and watched even full warriors fall over. If you are valks you run hidden killer, force and anything else (doesn't matter) and they fall over from the mark / stab combo. Vision is worse than intelligence, because it requires us to weap swap and activate our abilities quickly. Intelligence gives us time to position correctly. All of the changes, are for the most part, a nerf to DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 > @"XECOR.2814" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"rng.1024" > > > > > > Where the Vision is different is that ALL the attacks are guaranteed criticals. So where Intelligence fails by getting eaten up because you full counter and smack 3 clones before hitting the Mirage, the Vision will prevail. Where Intelligence fails from laying symbols with multiple ticks, Vision prevails by allowing the Guardian 3s where every single thing he does is a critical, including 2x symbols, a trap and some GS burst or whatever. That 3s of 100% guaranteed critical is debatably more dangerous than a Berserker build with 75 or 80% crit. Anyone who seriously pvps in this game or other games like it, should know that "Burst has nothing to do with DPS." @"Jugglemonkey.8741" mentioned a loss in DPS, but in most cases competitively, that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we are talking about DEs, Power Mirage, Killshot Warriors, ect ect, is the burst, not its damage output over the course of 60s. If that 3s of burst is granting 100% critical hit rate, if it can down you in that 3s flat after cycling through a defensive routine, it doesn't need sustained damage or any form of DPS outside of that 3s burst. The 3s of burst from Vision over the 2s from Hidden Killer will likely make up for the damage loss, but now additionally add enormous life steal factor. > > > > > > The best example I can stress here is back when I used to main Bunker Druid in spvp. I would often get the top damage stat in matches, even though people would widely acknowledge Bunker Druids as a build that deals no damage. I found this interesting and I had a couple buddies run a test with me. We had two Bunker Druids deal damage to each other over the course of 2 minutes in a 1v1. On a different node we had a couple D/P Daredevils in a 1v1 for 2 minutes. At the end of the test, the Bunkers had dealt much more damage to each other than the Thieves had dealt to each other. Realistically the Thieves are "waiting for that right moment" to land a BURST. They don't DPS each other, but when that burst lands, someone dies. In the case of Deadeye this is particularly true. All the DE does is sneak around and then burst and then disappear and then sneak around and then burst. Is there something I'm not understanding here? It seems that the DE can afford to sneak around waiting for that 3s burst while he uses crit on dodge roll stealths. During that dodge roll phase, he can easily heal to full without ever using his actual heal skill. > > > > > > Jugglemonkey had mentioned the loss in damage from Scholar and the smaller window for attack. I see what you mean, but I guess we'll have to see. To put this into a different perspective, my forecast is: Slightly lower damage Deadeyes, that still deal plenty lethal damage, that might take a little longer to kill you, but now life steal so much that you can't actually kill them unless they lag or get very lazy. > > > > Which is my point - if you don't avoid the burst now it's the same result. With these sigils they will be tankier with a burst every 18 seconds (again, they need to play rifle/rifle or pistol/pistol to get it every 9 seconds which has tons of counters) and hit like a noodle inbetween. They will have low critrate between these 18 sec bursts with this build, so their wet noodle slaps will heal them the base value - even marauder thieves today get more lifesteal sustain. > > > > We already have boons, LoS, toughness amulets, cc, blinds, weakness, blocks, invulns, dodges, evades, range and reflects to stay safe these 3 out of 18 seconds, we can eat autos for the last 15. I don't see how this will be any different than current SB, Deadeye, Fresh Air Weaver or core Guardian burst - either you avoid it or it's over. This way you will have 15 seconds of breathing room inbetween assaults atleast. Not to mention many professions will overcap on crit chance - so them getting the last 7% in order to get 100% anyway isn't going to be why they win. > > > > As for the rune, dodges are limited. Thieves want more they need to spec acro = even less damage. Vigor can be ripped. Weakness is a thing. Baiting still works. > > > > And tbf, I welcome any change that make guardian symbols viable again. > > Nothing you say applies to necro against deadeye. It is free bag now already for deadeyes. It will be less effort than gathering herbs after patch. Might to weakness? Fear? Blind? Chill? Even a core necro can beat it, as long as they lead the fight. Valid tactic against any burst class. Line of sighting makes the DE do 0 damage. You have barrier and shroud (which give 50% damage reduction). There's a difference between an unfair matchup and not using the tools at your disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XECOR.2814 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"XECOR.2814" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" > > > > > > > > Where the Vision is different is that ALL the attacks are guaranteed criticals. So where Intelligence fails by getting eaten up because you full counter and smack 3 clones before hitting the Mirage, the Vision will prevail. Where Intelligence fails from laying symbols with multiple ticks, Vision prevails by allowing the Guardian 3s where every single thing he does is a critical, including 2x symbols, a trap and some GS burst or whatever. That 3s of 100% guaranteed critical is debatably more dangerous than a Berserker build with 75 or 80% crit. Anyone who seriously pvps in this game or other games like it, should know that "Burst has nothing to do with DPS." @"Jugglemonkey.8741" mentioned a loss in DPS, but in most cases competitively, that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we are talking about DEs, Power Mirage, Killshot Warriors, ect ect, is the burst, not its damage output over the course of 60s. If that 3s of burst is granting 100% critical hit rate, if it can down you in that 3s flat after cycling through a defensive routine, it doesn't need sustained damage or any form of DPS outside of that 3s burst. The 3s of burst from Vision over the 2s from Hidden Killer will likely make up for the damage loss, but now additionally add enormous life steal factor. > > > > > > > > The best example I can stress here is back when I used to main Bunker Druid in spvp. I would often get the top damage stat in matches, even though people would widely acknowledge Bunker Druids as a build that deals no damage. I found this interesting and I had a couple buddies run a test with me. We had two Bunker Druids deal damage to each other over the course of 2 minutes in a 1v1. On a different node we had a couple D/P Daredevils in a 1v1 for 2 minutes. At the end of the test, the Bunkers had dealt much more damage to each other than the Thieves had dealt to each other. Realistically the Thieves are "waiting for that right moment" to land a BURST. They don't DPS each other, but when that burst lands, someone dies. In the case of Deadeye this is particularly true. All the DE does is sneak around and then burst and then disappear and then sneak around and then burst. Is there something I'm not understanding here? It seems that the DE can afford to sneak around waiting for that 3s burst while he uses crit on dodge roll stealths. During that dodge roll phase, he can easily heal to full without ever using his actual heal skill. > > > > > > > > Jugglemonkey had mentioned the loss in damage from Scholar and the smaller window for attack. I see what you mean, but I guess we'll have to see. To put this into a different perspective, my forecast is: Slightly lower damage Deadeyes, that still deal plenty lethal damage, that might take a little longer to kill you, but now life steal so much that you can't actually kill them unless they lag or get very lazy. > > > > > > Which is my point - if you don't avoid the burst now it's the same result. With these sigils they will be tankier with a burst every 18 seconds (again, they need to play rifle/rifle or pistol/pistol to get it every 9 seconds which has tons of counters) and hit like a noodle inbetween. They will have low critrate between these 18 sec bursts with this build, so their wet noodle slaps will heal them the base value - even marauder thieves today get more lifesteal sustain. > > > > > > We already have boons, LoS, toughness amulets, cc, blinds, weakness, blocks, invulns, dodges, evades, range and reflects to stay safe these 3 out of 18 seconds, we can eat autos for the last 15. I don't see how this will be any different than current SB, Deadeye, Fresh Air Weaver or core Guardian burst - either you avoid it or it's over. This way you will have 15 seconds of breathing room inbetween assaults atleast. Not to mention many professions will overcap on crit chance - so them getting the last 7% in order to get 100% anyway isn't going to be why they win. > > > > > > As for the rune, dodges are limited. Thieves want more they need to spec acro = even less damage. Vigor can be ripped. Weakness is a thing. Baiting still works. > > > > > > And tbf, I welcome any change that make guardian symbols viable again. > > > > Nothing you say applies to necro against deadeye. It is free bag now already for deadeyes. It will be less effort than gathering herbs after patch. > > Might to weakness? > Fear? > Blind? > Chill? > > Even a core necro can beat it, as long as they lead the fight. Valid tactic against any burst class. Line of sighting makes the DE do 0 damage. You have barrier and shroud (which give 50% damage reduction). > > There's a difference between an unfair matchup and not using the tools at your disposal. Yes all of that in 900/1200range when he hits you with 1500 range. I dont think you play necro because you can either get barrier or shroud. Different specs lol. Line of sighting in wvw is as big of meme because they have perma stealth and you have no mobility skills. You have to run in flat lands and die to 16k death judgement followed by autos. Dont try to validate your point by giving the best case for necro and worst case deadeye because necro can only win if there is terrain nearby and deadeye is noob and deadeye is low on initiative and his heal and blink is on cd and youre a fuckin savant in kiting bullets from stealth. Im sorry but i dont think stars aligning correctly as viable tools on my disposal. Btw you need to be able target thief and be in range to corrupt said boons. Also if you los thief you are los'd too. You dont want to accept it but necro needs something because no class has so many glaring weakness. Its alright we can live without it also because we live #necrolife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"XECOR.2814" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"XECOR.2814" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" > > > > > > > > > > Where the Vision is different is that ALL the attacks are guaranteed criticals. So where Intelligence fails by getting eaten up because you full counter and smack 3 clones before hitting the Mirage, the Vision will prevail. Where Intelligence fails from laying symbols with multiple ticks, Vision prevails by allowing the Guardian 3s where every single thing he does is a critical, including 2x symbols, a trap and some GS burst or whatever. That 3s of 100% guaranteed critical is debatably more dangerous than a Berserker build with 75 or 80% crit. Anyone who seriously pvps in this game or other games like it, should know that "Burst has nothing to do with DPS." @"Jugglemonkey.8741" mentioned a loss in DPS, but in most cases competitively, that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we are talking about DEs, Power Mirage, Killshot Warriors, ect ect, is the burst, not its damage output over the course of 60s. If that 3s of burst is granting 100% critical hit rate, if it can down you in that 3s flat after cycling through a defensive routine, it doesn't need sustained damage or any form of DPS outside of that 3s burst. The 3s of burst from Vision over the 2s from Hidden Killer will likely make up for the damage loss, but now additionally add enormous life steal factor. > > > > > > > > > > The best example I can stress here is back when I used to main Bunker Druid in spvp. I would often get the top damage stat in matches, even though people would widely acknowledge Bunker Druids as a build that deals no damage. I found this interesting and I had a couple buddies run a test with me. We had two Bunker Druids deal damage to each other over the course of 2 minutes in a 1v1. On a different node we had a couple D/P Daredevils in a 1v1 for 2 minutes. At the end of the test, the Bunkers had dealt much more damage to each other than the Thieves had dealt to each other. Realistically the Thieves are "waiting for that right moment" to land a BURST. They don't DPS each other, but when that burst lands, someone dies. In the case of Deadeye this is particularly true. All the DE does is sneak around and then burst and then disappear and then sneak around and then burst. Is there something I'm not understanding here? It seems that the DE can afford to sneak around waiting for that 3s burst while he uses crit on dodge roll stealths. During that dodge roll phase, he can easily heal to full without ever using his actual heal skill. > > > > > > > > > > Jugglemonkey had mentioned the loss in damage from Scholar and the smaller window for attack. I see what you mean, but I guess we'll have to see. To put this into a different perspective, my forecast is: Slightly lower damage Deadeyes, that still deal plenty lethal damage, that might take a little longer to kill you, but now life steal so much that you can't actually kill them unless they lag or get very lazy. > > > > > > > > Which is my point - if you don't avoid the burst now it's the same result. With these sigils they will be tankier with a burst every 18 seconds (again, they need to play rifle/rifle or pistol/pistol to get it every 9 seconds which has tons of counters) and hit like a noodle inbetween. They will have low critrate between these 18 sec bursts with this build, so their wet noodle slaps will heal them the base value - even marauder thieves today get more lifesteal sustain. > > > > > > > > We already have boons, LoS, toughness amulets, cc, blinds, weakness, blocks, invulns, dodges, evades, range and reflects to stay safe these 3 out of 18 seconds, we can eat autos for the last 15. I don't see how this will be any different than current SB, Deadeye, Fresh Air Weaver or core Guardian burst - either you avoid it or it's over. This way you will have 15 seconds of breathing room inbetween assaults atleast. Not to mention many professions will overcap on crit chance - so them getting the last 7% in order to get 100% anyway isn't going to be why they win. > > > > > > > > As for the rune, dodges are limited. Thieves want more they need to spec acro = even less damage. Vigor can be ripped. Weakness is a thing. Baiting still works. > > > > > > > > And tbf, I welcome any change that make guardian symbols viable again. > > > > > > Nothing you say applies to necro against deadeye. It is free bag now already for deadeyes. It will be less effort than gathering herbs after patch. > > > > Might to weakness? > > Fear? > > Blind? > > Chill? > > > > Even a core necro can beat it, as long as they lead the fight. Valid tactic against any burst class. Line of sighting makes the DE do 0 damage. You have barrier and shroud (which give 50% damage reduction). > > > > There's a difference between an unfair matchup and not using the tools at your disposal. > > Yes all of that in 900/1200range when he hits you with 1500 range. I dont think you play necro because you can either get barrier or shroud. Different specs lol. Line of sighting in wvw is as big of meme because they have perma stealth and you have no mobility skills. You have to run in flat lands and die to 16k death judgement followed by autos. > > Dont try to validate your point by giving the best case for necro and worst case deadeye because necro can only win if there is terrain nearby and deadeye is noob and deadeye is low on initiative and his heal and blink is on cd and youre a kitten savant in kiting bullets from stealth. Im sorry but i dont think stars aligning correctly as viable tools on my disposal. > > Btw you need to be able target thief and be in range to corrupt said boons. Also if you los thief you are los'd too. You dont want to accept it but necro needs something because no class has so many glaring weakness. Its alright we can live without it also because we live #necrolife. No, it's just me spending my first 3 years of this game maining thief, and learning there are necros out there who can actually destroy you no matter the stealth, range or burst. Just because you don't get free mechanics doesn't make you excempt for using every trick in the book like every other profession also must in order to counter stealth. What you lack in defense you make up for in pressure - there are other classes with less AoE/PbAoE potential that require a target for most skills which are way worse off than you, this is exactly why they get free mechanics and you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaz.3819 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 @OP You are incorrect about the new build taking Invigorating Precision. No Quarter GM trait is where it is at (not Invigorating Precision). And you don't need Hidden Killer even now. You can take either Marauder (potential anti-burst choice/Valk mix not much better) or just go full Berserker since gear +kneel's +20% crit bonus (rifle's dumbed down mechanic), +Fury 20% crit with near-100% uptime (Haste utility), +BQoBK you already have 100% crit rate. Invigorating Precision is a complete waste since you have Shadow's Rejuvenation/stealth when you are under heavy pressure. Valk gear is suboptimal when with Practiced Tolerance Critical Strike line trait that converts Precision to Ferocity, you miss out on a substantial ~14% damage bonus per shot difference. Trust me, any amount of Vitality against a strong CC/reveal/burst (i.e. Soulbeast or Holo) does you no good. The new Sigil opens up an option for not taking Critical Strikes line with Deadeye but honestly, no other trait line comes close to replacing it (how I would love to grab boon steal from Trickery or Panic Strike from Deadly Arts or Instant Reflexes from Acro, but it doesn't matter). IMO, the bigger deal is Scholar Runes are getting buffed for Deadeye (even more Ferocity for opener which is far more sickening). With the biggest deficiencies for WvW Rifle Deadeye is combat chasing mobility and those times when you need to be out of stealth to capture points (the "highly vulnerable" times), anything that increases burst damage output further is huge. This specific Sigil is not changing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"XECOR.2814" said: > Yes all of that in 900/1200range when he hits you with 1500 range. I dont think you play necro because you can either get barrier or shroud. Different specs lol. Line of sighting in wvw is as big of meme because they have perma stealth and you have no mobility skills. You have to run in flat lands and die to 16k death judgement followed by autos. > > Dont try to validate your point by giving the best case for necro and worst case deadeye because necro can only win if there is terrain nearby and deadeye is noob and deadeye is low on initiative and his heal and blink is on cd and youre a kitten savant in kiting bullets from stealth. Im sorry but i dont think stars aligning correctly as viable tools on my disposal. > > Btw you need to be able target thief and be in range to corrupt said boons. Also if you los thief you are los'd too. You dont want to accept it but necro needs something because no class has so many glaring weakness. Its alright we can live without it also because we live #necrolife. Huh? I've fought some decent Deadeyes and Reaper is actually the _one_ thing I tend to have the most success against them with, at least assuming they don't surprise me because I wasn't paying attention. Yes they have greater range and mobility, but Necro isn't a helpless puppy either. All you need to do is hit them like _twice_ and they're toast. I was able to kill _three_ of them just today, all against me. Granted, they likely weren't very good and I was able to GS 5 two of them in to melee range because I dropped off a hill to bait them. Certainly not denying the favor of the situation, but just pointing out that they're not the death sentence for Necro that you might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geist.4126 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > No, it's just me spending my first 3 years of this game maining thief, and learning there are necros out there who can actually destroy you no matter the stealth, range or burst. Just because you don't get free mechanics doesn't make you excempt for using every trick in the book like every other profession also must in order to counter stealth. What you lack in defense you make up for in pressure - there are other classes with less AoE/PbAoE potential that require a target for most skills which are way worse off than you, this is exactly why they get free mechanics and you don't. Spending 200 hours on thief vs. multiple more hours on necro pretty much tells me that you are a really bad deadeye when you lose to a necro. The only class build that could stand a chance vs. deadeye is core that either is full berserker (when the deadeye is a complete noob and is close enough to get hit by axe or shroud) or maybe, haven't tried that, dire geared tanky version with conditions. In both cases it's 90% advantage on the deadeye. Rifle or dagger doesn't make a big difference. The problem with core is that you need to wear berserker or at least marauder to deal enough damage in the short periods of "no stealth" to stand a chance to win that fight. You can't run as a necro and you can't LoS if you want to win. A DE dagger/rifle autohit hits a lot harder that any autohit you get from necro. The highest hitting ability from necro is Ghastly Claws and it hits way lower than Backstab or Death's Judgement (not full Malice). So, your only chance is to play offensive and if the deadeye has more than a braincell he just waits until the Life Force is depleted, which is the case pretty fast because he needs to build it by hitting stuff. What your whole statement lacked is the option: You played thief for three years, but never learned to play the class and more important never learned the other classes and understand how they work. Ask yourself two things: 1) Why is almost no one outside a group of at least five people roaming on any necro build? 2) Why are Scourges the only viable necro build in zergs? Both answers will enlighten you about "losing vs. necros on a thief". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > @"whoknocks.4935" > > Herald has no disengage, the only way they can win a fight is by staying on top of the opponent with overwhelming pressure 100% of the time. They are chasers, not disengagers like Thieves or Mesmers. As such, they cannot disengage and come back later when the 3s burst is off 9s CD. Even with Valkyrie stats, it won't be enough additional defense to outweigh the lose in sustained damage pressure from dropping raw critical hit rate. If they don't keep that pressure on an opponent 100% of the time, they are quite the easy kill actually. > > Power Mirage is pretty much the same thing but a bit different. Their bursts are so telegraphed that they won't be able to afford to only burst once per 18s when cycling back to GS. They don't have the level of stealth like a Thief, so after Jaunt/Blink is done with, they're a sitting duck. They can only afford to disengage when they know they have to leave. It's not something they can routinely do throughout an entire 1v1 like a DE. So if they don't have sustained pressure, they likely won't be able to kill a seasoned opponent who is ready to dodge the obvious burst every 18s. It will still need to have high raw crit rate. > > DE will have a bit of toughness with Daredevil Runes and don't act like Valk stat vitality isn't adding enormous sustain, because it is. Also, with protection from some duo roam partner, Valk vitality + prot is strong. You know what else is strong? Life stealing 4k+ per second is strong when there are random NPC creatures all over every single wvw map, including random veteran creatures by roads, NPCs guarding supply camps, ect.. ect.. ect.. There is an awful lot of pve going on in wvw actually. All the DE will have to do is go take 4 or 5s to smack around a Dolyak or something and get full health. That or target something that doesn't have so many defense mechanisms, like a Scourge. > Heralds playstyle is made by constant switch of legends to recharge energy and constant weapon swap, you will love getting stunned from staff5, weapon swap to sword/sword set with vision sigil into sword3, all hits inside your body will be crits, or all hits from sword4 will be crits, and the point they are not a disengage class is stupid, they are one of the best classes at kiting and landing the burst timing it, you kite away and wait for the right moment and boom, weapon swap into teleport into sword4 all crits. Today I faced two deadeyes, both perma stealth, the first guy exited stealth with rifle, dropped me to 50% health and stealth immediately, and then after some minutes got me with malicious backstab with zero tells. The second guy made the mistake to stay not stealth about 3-4 seconds, i dodged all his burst, counter attacked him and killed him, how having vision full crits would make him win that fight? Or having invigorating precision? He didn't land a single shot on me, and trying to burst me for 4 seconds he exposed him and he got killed. He could even have a buff of 6 seconds crits after swap, he still was dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"geist.4126" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > No, it's just me spending my first 3 years of this game maining thief, and learning there are necros out there who can actually destroy you no matter the stealth, range or burst. Just because you don't get free mechanics doesn't make you excempt for using every trick in the book like every other profession also must in order to counter stealth. What you lack in defense you make up for in pressure - there are other classes with less AoE/PbAoE potential that require a target for most skills which are way worse off than you, this is exactly why they get free mechanics and you don't. > > Spending 200 hours on thief vs. multiple more hours on necro pretty much tells me that you are a really bad deadeye when you lose to a necro. The only class build that could stand a chance vs. deadeye is core that either is full berserker (when the deadeye is a complete noob and is close enough to get hit by axe or shroud) or maybe, haven't tried that, dire geared tanky version with conditions. > In both cases it's 90% advantage on the deadeye. Rifle or dagger doesn't make a big difference. > The problem with core is that you need to wear berserker or at least marauder to deal enough damage in the short periods of "no stealth" to stand a chance to win that fight. You can't run as a necro and you can't LoS if you want to win. A DE dagger/rifle autohit hits a lot harder that any autohit you get from necro. The highest hitting ability from necro is Ghastly Claws and it hits way lower than Backstab or Death's Judgement (not full Malice). > So, your only chance is to play offensive and if the deadeye has more than a braincell he just waits until the Life Force is depleted, which is the case pretty fast because he needs to build it by hitting stuff. > > What your whole statement lacked is the option: > You played thief for three years, but never learned to play the class and more important never learned the other classes and understand how they work. > > Ask yourself two things: > 1) Why is almost no one outside a group of at least five people roaming on any necro build? > 2) Why are Scourges the only viable necro build in zergs? > > Both answers will enlighten you about "losing vs. necros on a thief". > > Your assumptions make no sense. You know why we don't see many necro roamers in WvW? - because chances are you will face groups of people in roaming setups, so other options offer easier ways of handling that. If however, this is about the necro/DE matchup, are you seriously telling me reapers and scourges aren't viable in PvP? That they all go down if there's a deadeye on the other team? This isn't true at all, and if deadeyes can be beaten in PvP you can be sure it can be done in WvW also. Before deadeye we had rangers pewpewing away, but we learned how to handle them. Or some of us did atleast, and deadeye is no different except the only challenge thieves always pose - stealth. It doesn't matter if he hits you for 50k, any other profession will be just as dead. Learn to play defensively during their burst, then aggressive inbetween. With barrier or shroud even then you can soak up serious amounts of his off-burst damage. You can anticipate his moves just as easily as amy other class, and pressure accordingly. If your argument is going to be why you as a necro can't win a 1v5 and there just happens to be a deadeye amongst them, this isn't a matchup issue - it's about knowing when or when not to engage. If a thief chases you every single class has to counterpressure, so blaming disengage potential is absolutely moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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