LucianDK.8615 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Ive been glancing over the rune list. Theres 2 that stands out as interesting compared to Scholar Scholar (1): +25 Power (2): +35 Ferocity (3): +50 Power (4): +65 Ferocity (5): +100 Power (6): +125 ferocity, +5% damage while your health is above 90%. Ogre (1): +25 Power (2): +35 Ferocity (3): +50 Power (4): +65 Ferocity (5): +100 Power (6): +4% damage; summon a rock dog while in combat. Infiltration (1): +25 Power (2): +35 Precision (3): +50 Power (4): +65 Precision (5): +100 Power (6): +10% damage versus foes below 50% health; gain vigor for 5 seconds when entering stealth. (Cooldown: 30s) Scholar gained 125 ferocity, but had the conditional damage bonus over 90% health nerfed to 5% Ogre always have the 4% bonus, and summoning a rockdog. I am left wondering how the rockdog compares vs. losing 125 ferocity and 1% damage. Infiltration however always have a damage bonus on targets below 50% health that doesnt depend on your own health. Though again the question is if you can stand losing 125 ferocity. But infiltration work stack with swift termination for 60% on targets below 50% life, yes? Oppinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 I'm not sure how power compares to ferocity, but Eagle rune grants 225 ferocity compared to Infiltrations 185 power on top of giving 85 more precision and the same 10% damage bonus to below 50% health foes (since the stealth gain is pointless on rev). But on topic, the rockdog is a waste since it will die instantly in a zerg. I'd still go with Scholar, since it is quite easy to retain the bonus whilst sitting at the range rev is support to be whilst dealing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianDK.8615 Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Eagle lacks power however. But for sigils. Sigil of Air got the chance to proc increased to 100% on crit. But recieved a significant nerf by recieving a 3s icd. Would it still be taken? Sigil of Cleansing have recieved a most delicious buff for pve. Now removing 3 conditions on weapon swap to this weapon. Edit: From what Im reading, the rockdog from ogre rune is always up unless it gets killed. Rockdog have 60s cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 In WvW Infiltrator would be helpful in finishing off downed players, and you would also gain vigor when going through veils, but I'll be sticking with Scholar for now, as the extra ferocity and 5% damage vs everyone is in my opinion superior to 10% for people under 50% health. And really these days in a zerg, you're either at 100% or you're dead :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianDK.8615 Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Semi-related request. Someone wanna test if Altruism runes has an ICD? I'm at work right now but I am hoping I can abuse this in Mallyx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messiah.1908 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said: > Semi-related request. Someone wanna test if Altruism runes has an ICD? I'm at work right now but I am hoping I can abuse this in Mallyx. have fun with it . maybe can be abuse in zerg but you have to activate the skill and reactivate over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > Eagle lacks power however. > > But for sigils. > Sigil of Air got the chance to proc increased to 100% on crit. But recieved a significant nerf by recieving a 3s icd. Would it still be taken? > > Sigil of Cleansing have recieved a most delicious buff for pve. Now removing 3 conditions on weapon swap to this weapon. > > Edit: > From what Im reading, the rockdog from ogre rune is always up unless it gets killed. > Rockdog have 60s cd. 3 conditions removed with a 9s ICD is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"messiah.1908" said: > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said: > > Semi-related request. Someone wanna test if Altruism runes has an ICD? I'm at work right now but I am hoping I can abuse this in Mallyx. > > have fun with it . maybe can be abuse in zerg but you have to activate the skill and reactivate over and over Yeah it would be a bit awkward but between that and FoN-M thats a lot of cheap condi absorption. Will have to see if it feels worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? yes, each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianDK.8615 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > yes, > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. So youd still say scholar is the better choice for rune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > yes, > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > So youd still say scholar is the better choice for rune? Yeah. It doesn't really give up/trade anything you need if you are considering playing a glass build and %damage modifiers are multiplicative which this rune set has. The math behind ferocity is a fair curve. Its not some unfair diminishing returns with a soft cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madara.7435 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > Sigil of Air got the chance to proc increased to 100% on crit. But recieved a significant nerf by recieving a 3s icd. Would it still be taken? It always had a 3s ICD just saying. Adding to the discussion though, depends on PvE or PvP. If you are looking at raids and just power dps, I am pretty sure that Scholar is the best choice after all. you dont need additional precision because of roiling mists, so for power+ferocity scholar is still strongest. In PvP you have more options now, scholar always was and still is too much glass. As I believe that summons of any kind wont survive long in pvp, runes like brawler hoelbrak or strength could be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Yeah, Scholar is still king for PvE but Ogre basically became your budget-Scholar. It is better than Strength now IMO, depending on content a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > yes, > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > yes, > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? no its just that ferocity loses value the more you have since it needs power to be effective. rune of air looks like it might be useful for roaming, and rune of vampirism for zerg sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianDK.8615 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 so scholar still for pve? Shame. Hoped there was competitive choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > yes, > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? It's both. Any time you look to add more you math out the improvement you will achieve. To do that you compare it by all previous total you have. That bigger that is, the less pronounced additional quantities will appear. If you have 100% crit damage and add 50% it's a 50% improvement. If you have 1000% crit damage and add 50% it's a 5% improvement. 50% crit damage doesn't add less damage, it just doesn't have the same profound impact to your damage. This is of course using ridiculous numbers for visualization. If you are running a pure glass cannon and don't care about survivability as the trade off then more power/precision/ferocity will be a measurable improvement. So right now I am currently using Strength Runes but am thinking about trading them out. One option would be infiltrators, Since revs hit 100% crit chance easy this rune normally would be a questionable choice with 100 precision. Howerever if you use it you can then take berserker/valk trinkets. Ignoring the different % damage modifiers each rune has, The precision lost using 6 trinket berserker/valk is 108 which in turn gives 108 Vita or 1080 hp. 18,702/17,514 = 1.0678 or 6.8% hp improvment Another option would be ogres. 220.67/214 = 1.03 or 3% damage improvement Another option would be scholars. 229/214 = 1.07 or 7% damage improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > > > yes, > > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? > > no its just that ferocity loses value the more you have since it needs power to be effective. That's not really what we are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > > > > > yes, > > > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > > > > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? > > > > no its just that ferocity loses value the more you have since it needs power to be effective. > > That's not really what we are talking about maybe you should since its true and 1000% easier to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > > > > > > > yes, > > > > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > > > > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > > > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > > > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > > > > > > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? > > > > > > no its just that ferocity loses value the more you have since it needs power to be effective. > > > > That's not really what we are talking about > > maybe you should since its true and 1000% easier to understand There is limited opportunity to straight trade power for ferocity. So no, its not what we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > > > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > > > > > > > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, > > > > > > each time you add more the new additional amount is weighted against the total amount added previously to the base. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I start with 100% crit damage base and then add 50% it is an improvement of 50% and the new base is 150%. > > > > > > If I add another 50% the new base is 200% and an improvement of 33%. Clearly not the added 50% that was added. 200%/150% = 1.33. > > > > > > However, the total added 100% is clearly a 100% improvement overall by a factor of 2, or 100%. The math is just that each time you want to add more crit damage % you have to weigh it based on all previously added. Is it worth adding that % crit damage that would be better off into crit chance? Crit Chance is a similar but different math thing. It too is weighted by how much previous crit chance you have added however, as you add crit chance you are actively reducing you non-crits as crit chance has a cap of 100%. Adding 5% crit chance when you only have 5% crit chance may double your crit chance but it still is going to be pretty useless. However adding 5% crit chance when you have 90% crit chance is only a marginal improvement but at the same time will cut your non-crits in half. > > > > > > > > > > Wait so crit damage is calculated based on each individual Crit damage bonus and not the total crit damage bonus added together? > > > > > > > > no its just that ferocity loses value the more you have since it needs power to be effective. > > > > > > That's not really what we are talking about > > > > maybe you should since its true and 1000% easier to understand > > There is limited opportunity to straight trade power for ferocity. So no, its not what we are talking about. that's not what im talking about either. what are you talkin about? im over here talkin and youre all about town man. not cool to confuse me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar.1793 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Scholar is still a must in pve for a power build. For pvp I’d still take it, especially WvW for some better ganking with phase traversal. Can be helpful in zergs if they got good footwork before impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverielle.3972 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 > @"LucianDK.8615" said: > I heard some blabber that ferocity gets less useful the more you have? No, it's just _absolutely_ bad mathematics (using percentages of percentages for example) that leads to misleading information such as this. Sadly, such is rife in all MMOs not just this one, and has been for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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