PSA: Tormenting Scourge is ridiculous

[babazhook.6805]

You sure it 150? I was testing on theif and getting over 400 on torment app. I will have to test again.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

>

> First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

>

> Broken interaction:

> 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> 3. Take rune of sanctuary

>

> Results in:

> Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

>

> The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

>

> That's for 100% sure.

> Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

>

 

I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> >

> > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> >

> > Broken interaction:

> > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> >

> > Results in:

> > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> >

> > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> >

> > That's for 100% sure.

> > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> >

>

> I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

 

it procs on beeing healed in downstate. Literally impossible to cleave anything even in 1v2

[babazhook.6805]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Zero Solstice.9754" said:

> > > @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> > > it's about the same balance(damage+healing total)as vampiric, and vampiric isn't particularly op. Unless you're hitting a bajillion ppl for some reason? why is that happening? is it the rune's fault?

> >

> > I have a video coming soon showing why the Rune is just a *liiiiiiittle* bit broken right now...

>

> I read on Reddit that it doesn't just affect torment but any condition you apply. Also it heals per condition and per target hit.

>

> So inflicting 3 stacks of bleed to 5 targets for example heals for 3 x 5 x 150hp = 2250hp

>

> That is pretty op too.

 

Ok my numbers were showing about a 400 heal but this makes more sense so I went in and test further. Yes there seems to be a BUG meaning a heal add for every stack of any applied damaging condition. I do not think as written the rune is OP. If it was just torment stacks it fine IMO.

[Farkon.2170]

Enjoy all this while it lasts, probably will be patched tomorrow.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> > >

> > > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> > >

> > > Broken interaction:

> > > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> > >

> > > Results in:

> > > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> > >

> > > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> > >

> > > That's for 100% sure.

> > > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> > >

> >

> > I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

>

> it procs on beeing healed in downstate. Literally impossible to cleave anything even in 1v2

 

Yep. Getting rezzed counts as healing.

Well you'll never ever be able to kill someone if they started rezzing

[killfil.3472]

It's like a spookier parasitic contagion...

[lodjur.1284]

For solo/smallscale it pushes condiscourge back into "barely viable" (It's now semi-playable, not top tier like mirage/thief/soulbeast by any means but playable for people who enjoy something besides endless reset+burst) which seems like a reasonable spot. For zerging I assume it makes scourge more broken than it was, but scourge is conceptually broken for zerging so it will never not be op there. This is with the bugged version of course, after the obvious incoming bugfix it will heal about 60% less or so, which will still make it BiS, I would personally prefer it to retain current functionality as it is a powerful option but very easy to counterplay (it's only really strong if people actually stand in your shit, especially if there's multiples of them). I haven't tried it on other classes yet. Hopefully they will only bugfix it and not also give it an ICD

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> >

> > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> >

> > Broken interaction:

> > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> >

> > Results in:

> > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> >

> > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> >

> > That's for 100% sure.

> > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> >

>

> I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

 

Sir i would like to tell you that you are by far incorrect

THATS THE WORST WAY to nerf sanctuary scourge.

 

 

or how about we just give abrasive grit a small cooldown instead of nerfing the trait that effects all aspects of necormancer >_> Because honestly Vampuric and Vampuric aura dont do much with the rune on core and reaper it works pretty fline shaving off small drips of damage for very minor boost in sustain.

 

So rather than taking a hit to core we could just tweek the 1 trait that makes it bad **Abrasive Grit** and give it like a 2 or 3 second icd. Out side of his rune you wouldn't be applying barrier much more frequently than that anyways which is why it had no icd to start with.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The problem with the broken interaction of rune of sanctuary:

> > >

> > > First what it does: gives you barrier for 20% of the amount you are healed.

> > >

> > > Broken interaction:

> > > 1.Use scourge with abrasive grit

> > > 2.take bloodmagic vampiric presence

> > > 3. Take rune of sanctuary

> > >

> > > Results in:

> > > Get 2 might per hit and cleanse a condition.

> > > So hitting 5 targets will give 10might and cleanse 5 conditions.

> > >

> > > The problem here. Anet will just address this issue with giving an ice on abrasive grit.

> > >

> > > That's for 100% sure.

> > > Which is definetly not the right way to balance.

> > > Cause it's not abrasive grit, which is broken. It's the rune

> > >

> >

> > I think the best way to nerf the Sanctuary Scourge is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Aura no longer proc the rune. On other classes, the rune is fine, and since it doesn't proc on the Regeneration boon, it's clear that it can have certain heals edited out for balance. Scourge just has a weak trait in normal play that happens to become completely busted in this particular circumstance.

>

> it procs on beeing healed in downstate. Literally impossible to cleave anything even in 1v2

 

Thats 100% not true either lol. To be fair if you couldn't cleave them down with the rune you wouldn't have cleaved the body being rezed even if they had not had it. It just means you made a bad play or you simply cant out damage the healing being done. Plenty of times yesterday i saw several people get cleaved down with the rune on.

 

Also consider this. Stomping exists for a reason. The game never intended for you to simply always cleave a body down once a player goes down. Im not sure where players get this false sense of security that the only way is to cleave the body down. If anything you can at least just change targets and burst the person doing the rez'ing which will result in them being cc'ed stopping the rez or possibly over committing to it which can result in both players going down.

 

Also consider that the game has updated since launch but stomping has not. The only improvement we have seen to stomping is the daredevil elite skill which finishes the person instantly. IT could mean we simply need to see more skills like this or that maybe your set up is not good for stopping some one who runs a power healing setup.

 

If the barrier generation was dependent on the Person rez'ing to wear it (meaning they force the barrier on to anyone they touch) then I would consider it op. But its actually the other way around. The person who goes down needs to be the one wearing the run meaning that they choose to have this as a perk regardless if they have a power rez'er on their team or not. This in my opinion makes it a bit more fair as the person doing the Rez wont know the person has the rune on until they attempt to heal them.

 

The only real issue with this rune is abrasive grit and its unseen (and surely un intended) interaction with the barrier gain frequency. Simply giving it a short icd will balance the issue. And drop it from being god teir to being more fair ish as a build.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

 

> The only real issue with this rune is abrasive grit and its unseen (and surely un intended) interaction with the barrier gain frequency. Simply giving it a short icd will balance the issue. And drop it from being god teir to being more fair ish as a build.

 

The rune isn't any worse than mercy really. But mercy is a pretty horrible baseline to have as it is a rune that should not exist. The problem with stomping someone being power ressed is that the stomp is slower than the actual ress if you don't get interrupted. (worse if the person has ress traits etc). This rune could make the issue bigger as basically +20% is a very good rune for general use.

 

Wouldnt simply making it so that abrasive grit only procs from barriers that are like 300 or bigger be an easier fix? Not that I'd mind an abrasive grit nerf either way.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> > The only real issue with this rune is abrasive grit and its unseen (and surely un intended) interaction with the barrier gain frequency. Simply giving it a short icd will balance the issue. And drop it from being god teir to being more fair ish as a build.

>

> The rune isn't any worse than mercy really. But mercy is a pretty horrible baseline to have as it is a rune that should not exist. The problem with stomping someone being power ressed is that the stomp is slower than the actual ress if you don't get interrupted. (worse if the person has ress traits etc). This rune could make the issue bigger as basically +20% is a very good rune for general use.

 

Thats not an issue that removing this rune will slove. Either you still would or wouldn't get the stomp and thats a fact. If stomping is an issue that needs to be looked into thats fine but simply removing this rune wont make you feel all that much better. As i said its depended on the person who went down to have the rune not the person doing the rez which makes it a bit more fair imo. Its not something that some one who runs a power rez build an force on every person they touch.

 

>

> Wouldnt simply making it so that abrasive grit only procs from barriers that are like 300 or bigger be an easier fix? Not that I'd mind an abrasive grit nerf either way.

 

And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

 

The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain. This keeps the rune and the build still viable and usable without compeltely destorying the rune / necromancer at a core aspect / or scourge anymore than it already is. The reason i say this is because scourge could not apply barrier too frequently to start with which is why the trait never was given a internal cooldown. Simply because there were no means to rapidly apply new barrier so often. Even if they give it a short icd if a scourge uses the trait without the rune they are likely to be un effected by the icd (based on how a lot of scourge's play)

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

>

> The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

 

Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

 

 

>

> Thats not an issue that removing this rune will slove. Either you still would or wouldn't get the stomp and thats a fact. If stomping is an issue that needs to be looked into thats fine but simply removing this rune wont make you feel all that much better. As i said its depended on the person who went down to have the rune not the person doing the rez which makes it a bit more fair imo. Its not something that some one who runs a power rez build an force on every person they touch.

 

Well the problem is that the rune is really good. 20% extra healing (that also works when overhealed) is great. Having the you get ressed 20% better as an added bonus makes it so that cleaving gets 20% harder against a lot of people. Mercy runes are a bigger problem yes, stomping sucking is another problem, but this rune makes cleaving even worse than it was. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this becomes the go to rune in WvW for a very large amount of builds, even if the ressing interaction gets removed. The only feature that makes mercy less of a problem than it could be (still a big problem tho) is that at least it is utterly useless when you're not ressing.

 

> The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain. This keeps the rune and the build still viable and usable without compeltely destorying the rune / necromancer at a core aspect / or scourge anymore than it already is. The reason i say this is because scourge could not apply barrier too frequently to start with which is why the trait never was given a internal cooldown. Simply because there were no means to rapidly apply new barrier so often. Even if they give it a short icd if a scourge uses the trait without the rune they are likely to be un effected by the icd (based on how a lot of scourge's play)

 

Quickest does not necessarily mean best. If abrasive grit is overpowered on its own then maybe that should get nerfed (I wouldn't mind really), but nerfing it to fix a broken interaction with a rune is a very ugly and lazy fix.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

>

> >

> > Thats not an issue that removing this rune will slove. Either you still would or wouldn't get the stomp and thats a fact. If stomping is an issue that needs to be looked into thats fine but simply removing this rune wont make you feel all that much better. As i said its depended on the person who went down to have the rune not the person doing the rez which makes it a bit more fair imo. Its not something that some one who runs a power rez build an force on every person they touch.

>

> Well the problem is that the rune is really good. 20% extra healing (that also works when overhealed) is great. Having the you get ressed 20% better as an added bonus makes it so that cleaving gets 20% harder against a lot of people. Mercy runes are a bigger problem yes, stomping sucking is another problem, but this rune makes cleaving even worse than it was. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this becomes the go to rune in WvW for a very large amount of builds, even if the ressing interaction gets removed. The only feature that makes mercy less of a problem than it could be (still a big problem tho) is that at least it is utterly useless when you're not ressing.

 

I still don't see the problem here its not effective healing its barrier aka damage medigation. Its not getting Rez'ed 20% better because if you are at 80% hp and have 20% barrier on the remaining portion of your health bar you do not simply stand up. Standing up 20% faster would be a 20% better rez. I suppose they could make it so that the barrier effect does not trigger from the downed state in which case the rune becomes totally useless because then at that point 20% for in combat purposes (in most situations) its not very effective. ITs very very VERY minor sustain improvement. I think the whole panic over people whining about the rune granting barrier while beeing Rez'ed will blow over and is not in need of a nerf due to how weak the rune is at pretty much any other time (not counting scourge abrasive grit)

 

>

> > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain. This keeps the rune and the build still viable and usable without compeltely destorying the rune / necromancer at a core aspect / or scourge anymore than it already is. The reason i say this is because scourge could not apply barrier too frequently to start with which is why the trait never was given a internal cooldown. Simply because there were no means to rapidly apply new barrier so often. Even if they give it a short icd if a scourge uses the trait without the rune they are likely to be un effected by the icd (based on how a lot of scourge's play)

>

> Quickest does not necessarily mean best. If abrasive grit is overpowered on its own then maybe that should get nerfed (I wouldn't mind really), but nerfing it to fix a broken interaction with a rune is a very ugly and lazy fix.

 

What did you think i was talking about nerfing? Not the rune, but yes the trait **Abrasive Grit** simply needs a internal cooldown. Its the **best** and **quickest** way to fix this issue. Plus it wont even hurt scourge if they used the trait before or not. As they cant spam barrier without the rune thus it never needed a icd till now. I dont think the rune is terribly over powered in any other form except with abrasive grit after testing it. 20% is not that much. It only seems like much when getting rez'ed because of how fast rez healing populates healing ticks. In truth of the barrier generated in a second can be knocked off in a single swing by most professions and still deal considerable amounts of damage to the health under that barrier.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

> >

> > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

>

> Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

 

Considering how busted healing modifiers can get I would assume that they didnt do that for a few reasons

1 all the healing effects have already been done a few times over on a few different runes

2 Adding a brand new healing modifier Rune breaks some professions far more than others

3 Its not a healing rune

4 You dont run a rune that grants you increased or bonus healing based on incoming heals you may not have control over on none healing builds the rune would be oddly more clunky than it already is.

 

The reasons why the scourge trait can be changed and it wont even matter

1 before this rune scourge could not spam barrier onto itself that frequently to make Abrasive grit overly busted so it wont matter if it has a slight icd or not.

2 It cleans things up as a QoL for future barrier mechanics we might see on other runes , sigils, and possibly other core skills and or traits and prevents the same mishap from happening again.

3 Technically the skill states when you grant barrier to allies not yourself, meaning you shouldn't get any benifit from it to start with but because of how things like that work yeah....

 

That said it wont hurt to give abrasive grit a icd so long as its fair ish and or low ish. a few seconds.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

> > >

> > > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

> >

> > Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

>

> Considering how busted healing modifiers can get I would assume that they didnt do that for a few reasons

> 1 all the healing effects have already been done a few times over on a few different runes

> 2 Adding a brand new healing modifier Rune breaks some professions far more than others

> 3 Its not a healing rune

> 4 You dont run a rune that grants you increased or bonus healing based on incoming heals you may not have control over on none healing builds the rune would be oddly more clunky than it already is.

>

> The reasons why the scourge trait can be changed and it wont even matter

> 1 before this rune scourge could not spam barrier onto itself that frequently to make Abrasive grit overly busted so it wont matter if it has a slight icd or not.

> 2 It cleans things up as a QoL for future barrier mechanics we might see on other runes , sigils, and possibly other core skills and or traits and prevents the same mishap from happening again.

> 3 Technically the skill states when you grant barrier to allies not yourself, meaning you shouldn't get any benifit from it to start with but because of how things like that work yeah....

>

> That said it wont hurt to give abrasive grit a icd so long as its fair ish and or low ish. a few seconds.

 

I disagree, _abrasive grit_ with an ICD will be very clunky for any other runeset while it will still overperform with this runeset. ANet just can't and mustn't balance trait under the assumption that a specific runeset will be taken. Ultimately the problem is the runeset and it's the runeset that must change to accomodate the rest of the game. The barrier gen is the root of the problem not the trait that react to the barrier gen. If you want to put an ICD put it on the runeset not on the traits.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > And no it would be easier just to give it a internal cooldown and keeps it consistent with other trait coding. There is not any trait that list barrier by the numeric value that triggers something else to happen.

> > > >

> > > > The quickest fix would be to give it a coodown of 3 to 5 seconds or something on barrier gain.

> > >

> > > Nope, the quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the barrier by a healing effect. This would basically do the same thing, without procing scourge trait. There is no point in looking so far as modifying necromancer's traits or whatever, the issue is the rune effect not the necromancer's traits.

> >

> > Considering how busted healing modifiers can get I would assume that they didnt do that for a few reasons

> > 1 all the healing effects have already been done a few times over on a few different runes

> > 2 Adding a brand new healing modifier Rune breaks some professions far more than others

> > 3 Its not a healing rune

> > 4 You dont run a rune that grants you increased or bonus healing based on incoming heals you may not have control over on none healing builds the rune would be oddly more clunky than it already is.

> >

> > The reasons why the scourge trait can be changed and it wont even matter

> > 1 before this rune scourge could not spam barrier onto itself that frequently to make Abrasive grit overly busted so it wont matter if it has a slight icd or not.

> > 2 It cleans things up as a QoL for future barrier mechanics we might see on other runes , sigils, and possibly other core skills and or traits and prevents the same mishap from happening again.

> > 3 Technically the skill states when you grant barrier to allies not yourself, meaning you shouldn't get any benifit from it to start with but because of how things like that work yeah....

> >

> > That said it wont hurt to give abrasive grit a icd so long as its fair ish and or low ish. a few seconds.

>

> I disagree, _abrasive grit_ with an ICD will be very clunky for any other runeset while it will still overperform with this runeset. ANet just can't and mustn't balance trait under the assumption that a specific runeset will be taken. Ultimately the problem is the runeset and it's the runeset that must change to accomodate the rest of the game. The barrier gen is the root of the problem not the trait that react to the barrier gen. If you want to put an ICD put it on the runeset not on the traits.

 

I have to disagree partly still.

While the rune set could be part of the issue.

The problem with your "change to accommodate the rest of the game" is the fact that it already does that when you look at its intended purpose (even if the value is a bit low). The issue here is that scourge introduced the barrier mechanic basically. Its traits were designed around it pretty much being the main if not the only porfession that would be able to produce / share barrier. This actually makes scourge the outlier here.

 

Barrier is slowly slipping into other parts of the game on other professions and elites and now this is the first attempt to test with a rune set its not surprising that scourge has a unintended interaction because of it.

Yes they could change the rune but i think putting a cooldown on the rune would be more clunky for every one else in the game who potentially would want to use the rune. In fact with your suggestion of hitting the rune with a cooldown makes it unviable and invalid for its 'intended purpose' on any build if they do that at its current 20% conversion value. It would literally become a scourge only rune simply for "abrasive grit." proc'ing, and im sorry but thats not accommodating the rest of the game.

 

So we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[lodjur.1284]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> I have to disagree partly still.

> While the rune set could be part of the issue.

> The problem with your "change to accommodate the rest of the game" is the fact that it already does that when you look at its intended purpose (even if the value is a bit low). The issue here is that scourge introduced the barrier mechanic basically. Its traits were designed around it pretty much being the main if not the only porfession that would be able to produce / share barrier. This actually makes scourge the outlier here.

>

> Barrier is slowly slipping into other parts of the game on other professions and elites and now this is the first attempt to test with a rune set its not surprising that scourge has a unintended interaction because of it.

> Yes they could change the rune but i think putting a cooldown on the rune would be more clunky for every one else in the game who potentially would want to use the rune. In fact with your suggestion of hitting the rune with a cooldown makes it unviable and invalid for its 'intended purpose' on any build if they do that at its current 20% conversion value. It would literally become a scourge only rune simply for "abrasive grit." proc'ing, and im sorry but thats not accommodating the rest of the game.

>

> So we will have to agree to disagree.

>

 

Yet putting a minimum value for abrasive grit would fix all issues with this without nerfing anything. If we're talking about changes that impact the game as little as possible that must be the best option here. In general ICDs are very lazy and bad fixes.

 

Also ressing is almost always vs cleaving (except when noone is ressing). Adding 20% of all healing done as barrier makes cleaving 20% harder. This is a buff to downstate. The downstate is already bad enough, I shudder at the thought of how it will be once 70% of the WvW population runs around with sanctuary.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I have to disagree partly still.

> > While the rune set could be part of the issue.

> > The problem with your "change to accommodate the rest of the game" is the fact that it already does that when you look at its intended purpose (even if the value is a bit low). The issue here is that scourge introduced the barrier mechanic basically. Its traits were designed around it pretty much being the main if not the only porfession that would be able to produce / share barrier. This actually makes scourge the outlier here.

> >

> > Barrier is slowly slipping into other parts of the game on other professions and elites and now this is the first attempt to test with a rune set its not surprising that scourge has a unintended interaction because of it.

> > Yes they could change the rune but i think putting a cooldown on the rune would be more clunky for every one else in the game who potentially would want to use the rune. In fact with your suggestion of hitting the rune with a cooldown makes it unviable and invalid for its 'intended purpose' on any build if they do that at its current 20% conversion value. It would literally become a scourge only rune simply for "abrasive grit." proc'ing, and im sorry but thats not accommodating the rest of the game.

> >

> > So we will have to agree to disagree.

> >

>

> Yet putting a minimum value for abrasive grit would fix all issues with this without nerfing anything. If we're talking about changes that impact the game as little as possible that must be the best option here. In general ICDs are very lazy and bad fixes.

>

> Also ressing is almost always vs cleaving (except when noone is ressing). Adding 20% of all healing done as barrier makes cleaving 20% harder. This is a buff to downstate. The downstate is already bad enough, I shudder at the thought of how it will be once 70% of the WvW population runs around with sanctuary.

 

Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

 

Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

 

Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

 

>

> Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

>

> Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

>

> Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

 

One of the most inmature starts to a post I have seen in a long time, sadly incredibly unexpected however. You never said that's what you think will happen but what should happen. That it was more likely to be an ICD more or less everyone was aware of, I was arguing for what would have been the better fix.

 

I am very aware of the fact that the downed person needs the rune. I only argue from a smallscale WvW perspective, sPvP is one of the most exercises in avoiding fights one can imagine imo, hence I believe any balance discussion about sPvP is pointless because you don't win sPvP by winning fights, you win it by being better at rotating. I could not care less about the implication of the current sanctuary rune in sPvP. There are no tools to negate a ress beyond impact strike (Daredevil Elite). The downstate is a crutch that arbitrarily benefits groups simply for being bigger in a way that skill can't compensate for as you can't be better or worse at ressing. I have 0 chance to be saved by a power resser as I don't zerg or in general run with randoms and ressing is fairly useless when outnumbered. This rune is a very strong rune that can more or less go in every build (20% more healing received is one of the best 6 set bonuses in the game). The extra ressing power simply makes ressing even more cancerous. Besides downstate is hardly or has ever really been a problem in sPvP so that it's a WvW perspective should be fairly obvious from context...

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> >

> > Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

> >

> > Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

> >

> > Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

>

> One of the most inmature starts to a post I have seen in a long time, sadly incredibly unexpected however. You never said that's what you think will happen but what should happen. That it was more likely to be an ICD more or less everyone was aware of, I was arguing for what would have been the better fix.

 

Im sure it wont be the last, but thanks for taking the time to point that out :+1: (i guess i could have done that better my apologizes) But seriously there was not going to be a better fix because the rune is not causing a major problem in any other way. This ideally was the better fix (if the numbers used are upsetting im sorry but thats not my call) Anet even said they spent alot of time working on this rune and sigil change you cant expect them to simply throw their work in the trash after a single day of use even more so when what i said a few post ago is pretty much spot on the money. Scourge was an outlier with barrier and now that barrier is being shared through the game in other areas its not surprising that scourge will have some odd ball things come up.

 

The rune accommodated the rest of the game. To put a cool down on the run was not going to be a proper fix it would have invalidated it competently on every build that might even want to consider using it but scourge (assuming abrasive grit didnt get the icd) and would have become something only used by scourge to proc what should be mostly an altruistic trait selfishly. You have to see the problem with this correct?

 

>

> I am very aware of the fact that the downed person needs the rune. I only argue from a smallscale WvW perspective, sPvP is one of the most exercises in avoiding fights one can imagine imo, hence I believe any balance discussion about sPvP is pointless because you don't win sPvP by winning fights, you win it by being better at rotating. I could not care less about the implication of the current sanctuary rune in sPvP. There are no tools to negate a ress beyond impact strike (Daredevil Elite).

 

I have proposed that more skills like this be invited to the game as stomping is such an old mechanic I would love to see more elite skills finish people off instantly on hit (not every single one of them but at least 1 or 2 on each profession would be nice)

 

> The downstate is a crutch that arbitrarily benefits groups simply for being bigger in a way that skill can't compensate for as you can't be better or worse at ressing. I have 0 chance to be saved by a power resser as I don't zerg or in general run with randoms and ressing is fairly useless when outnumbered. This rune is a very strong rune that can more or less go in every build (20% more healing received is one of the best 6 set bonuses in the game). The extra ressing power simply makes ressing even more cancerous. Besides downstate is hardly or has ever really been a problem in sPvP so that it's a WvW perspective should be fairly obvious from context...

 

Its not bad to have a strong rune though plenty of runes are strong just under different applications. Im sure anet knew about the down state barrier that would likely be impossible not to test while working on this rune if anything they left it in intentionally. Anet even picked what skill will proc the run while not in the down state so I can only assume that the fully knew what could come off the down state barrier and if it become that big of an issue im sure they could simply turn it off at any time. But they want to likely give it a testing period first.

 

To be fair everything in this game can be by your terms "cancerous".... getting 1 shot is cancerous, getting rez'ed to fast is cancerous, getting condi bombed is cancerous. So I take your words on how this rune works as "cancerous" as its just as broken as every other thing people dislike in a player vs player setting in this game. Meaning its perfectly fine.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> >

> > >

> > > Thats too bad because i made a call on what would likely happen based on what makes the most sense from my point of view and thats exactly what happened so lets move on from the whole abrasive grit thing at this point.

> > >

> > > Secondly keep in mind that the person doing the power rez'ing is not what determines of a person gets the barrier the down player determines that when they slot the rune. You still have the options of attacking the reviver and in the event you cant do that its time to consider that maybe you shouldn't have tried to 1v2 or tried to sit there and cleave a body down when you likely didnt have the damage to do so if they have a support sitting on them or the tools to negate the revive. You have just as much opportunity to get saved by a power healer and not be cleaved down as anyone you might be trying to cleave down.

> > >

> > > Lastly dont even bring WvW into any kind of balance perspective you would think anet needs to start putting a discalmer on wvw "You are about to ender World vs World. Some things you will run into here will not be balanced as the number of active players increases. " You must realize that almost anything in wvw can be broken with the right number of people the or the right coordination and thats just fact.

> >

> > One of the most inmature starts to a post I have seen in a long time, sadly incredibly unexpected however. You never said that's what you think will happen but what should happen. That it was more likely to be an ICD more or less everyone was aware of, I was arguing for what would have been the better fix.

>

> Im sure it wont be the last, but thanks for taking the time to point that out :+1: (i guess i could have done that better my apologizes) But seriously there was not going to be a better fix because the rune is not causing a major problem in any other way. This ideally was the better fix (if the numbers used are upsetting im sorry but thats not my call) Anet even said they spent alot of time working on this rune and sigil change you cant expect them to simply throw their work in the trash after a single day of use even more so when what i said a few post ago is pretty much spot on the money. Scourge was an outlier with barrier and now that barrier is being shared through the game in other areas its not surprising that scourge will have some odd ball things come up.

 

> The rune accommodated the rest of the game. To put a cool down on the run was not going to be a proper fix it would have invalidated it competently on every build that might even want to consider using it but scourge (assuming abrasive grit didnt get the icd) and would have become something only used by scourge to proc what should be mostly an altruistic trait selfishly. You have to see the problem with this correct?

 

Which is not what I suggested, I suggested a minimum value on barrier to proc abrasive grit, tell me how this would affect anything else.

 

I really don't mind that they nerfed abrasive grit, I don't run it in on any character nor does anyone in my team. But saying that this wasn't a nerf is silly, because it was a rather sizeable nerf to abrasive grit and if that wasn't intended it could have been handled much better by putting a minimum value for it to proc. For the record as far as I can remember every single ability that says "allies" includes yourself, maybe there's a few traits that don't, but the overwhelming majority of them count yourself.

 

> >

> > I am very aware of the fact that the downed person needs the rune. I only argue from a smallscale WvW perspective, sPvP is one of the most exercises in avoiding fights one can imagine imo, hence I believe any balance discussion about sPvP is pointless because you don't win sPvP by winning fights, you win it by being better at rotating. I could not care less about the implication of the current sanctuary rune in sPvP. There are no tools to negate a ress beyond impact strike (Daredevil Elite).

>

> I have proposed that more skills like this be invited to the game as stomping is such an old mechanic I would love to see more elite skills finish people off instantly on hit (not every single one of them but at least 1 or 2 on each profession would be nice)

 

> > The downstate is a crutch that arbitrarily benefits groups simply for being bigger in a way that skill can't compensate for as you can't be better or worse at ressing. I have 0 chance to be saved by a power resser as I don't zerg or in general run with randoms and ressing is fairly useless when outnumbered. This rune is a very strong rune that can more or less go in every build (20% more healing received is one of the best 6 set bonuses in the game). The extra ressing power simply makes ressing even more cancerous. Besides downstate is hardly or has ever really been a problem in sPvP so that it's a WvW perspective should be fairly obvious from context...

>

> Its not bad to have a strong rune though plenty of runes are strong just under different applications. Im sure anet knew about the down state barrier that would likely be impossible not to test while working on this rune if anything they left it in intentionally. Anet even picked what skill will proc the run while not in the down state so I can only assume that the fully knew what could come off the down state barrier and if it become that big of an issue im sure they could simply turn it off at any time. But they want to likely give it a testing period first.

 

The problem is not that there's another strong rune. The problem is that there's a new strong rune with an added benefit of you can clutch much harder on downstate.

 

> To be fair everything in this game can be by your terms "cancerous".... getting 1 shot is cancerous, getting rez'ed to fast is cancerous, getting condi bombed is cancerous. So I take your words on how this rune works as "cancerous" as its just as broken as every other thing people dislike in a player vs player setting in this game. Meaning its perfectly fine.

 

Actually it's fairly simple what is cancerous. Changes that promote interactive play are positive, changes that promote linear play are negative. Ressing is about as linear as a mechanic can be (you click "interact" and wait).

[Jimbru.6014]

PVP and the PVP mentality are what's cancerous. It's ruined so many games, and is in the process of ruining this one as the attempts to balance PVP end up nerfing and disrupting PVE play. Ask mesmers about that, after core and chrono mesmers got whacked with a PVE nerf bat because mirages were the most broken PVP class in the game, and still are because the nerf was mis-targeted didn't really hurt them. The entire gaming world would be better off if PVP had never been brought to MMORPGs, or at least kept confined to its own places totally separate from PVE.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> PVP and the PVP mentality are what's cancerous. It's ruined so many games, and is in the process of ruining this one as the attempts to balance PVP end up nerfing and disrupting PVE play. Ask mesmers about that, after core and chrono mesmers got whacked with a PVE nerf bat because mirages were the most broken PVP class in the game, and still are because the nerf was mis-targeted didn't really hurt them. The entire gaming world would be better off if PVP had never been brought to MMORPGs, or at least kept confined to its own places totally separate from PVE.

 

There's a lot of people who would not play the game at all if the PvP gamemodes didn't exist. Me included, not because I hate the PvE or anything, but simply because I do the PvE to get gear/skins for PvP, that's my motivation for doing, sure some of the content is enjoyable but I would never actually start it without, this is true for most of the people I know (because I mainly know PvPers obviously), hence removing PvP would cause many people to leave.

 

To some of us the only thing that's really interesting in games is interacting with your opponents. I am personally a fan of

 

Claiming that PvE gets nerfed all the time by PvP is ridicilous. The opposite happens way more often, boonshare chrono was a very viable build for smallscale WvW (3-5 people) that has been nerfed into utter uselessnes because of PvE. If PvE balance is bad then that is most easily solved by skillsplits, especially if it just comes down to DPS numbers, making all the mirage skills apply 30% longer conditions (or w/e number is good) in PvE only for example is incredibly simple. This can be applied to more or less every class (except for a few things like mesmer portals/pulls/stealths, which are invaluable but hard to boil down to numbers, but that wouldn't be any easier to balance in the absence of PvP) because PvE balance is so very easy to fix as it generally comes down to numbers (number of boons, DPS, HPS, breakbar damage etc) while PvP balance is much more complicated (needs to include tankiness, sustain, mobility, CC, boon removal etc etc).

 

Your mentality seems to be that of one of the most cancerous groups of people I have encountered in any game and one that is common in gw2. The "diehard casual" that not only plays casually (which is far from a problem people can play however they want to), but thinks that anyone that does not should not be allowed to play the game at all. Now me as a more or less (depending on how garbage the current patch/meta is) hardcore PvPer don't think we should delete all content that doesn't interest me or that has at some point had negative implications on my gamemodes, I believe they should be balanced preferably by splitting the skills. Some people find performing well in games to be the fun part, it isn't particularly weird or anything, for some the best way of testing one's performance isn't against an AI that always does the same thing but against real actual players.