Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged]

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Over all I like the direction that ANet took for this, despite a few overperforming outliers (Tormenting, Antitoxin, Defending, Speed, possibly more) and underperforming choices (Svanir's 6-piece stands out).

 

One thing I am not a fan of is boons being granted only when entering combat on certain rune sets. This seems very poorly implemented given the short duration of the boons granted. Reminds me of the Opening Strike mechanic for Ranger, which to me seems terribly outdated.

 

Also, Sigil of Cleansing clearing 3 conditions in WvW is just silly. Please split it back to 1 and keep it at 3 for PvE.

[ThiBash.5634]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> One thing I am not a fan of is boons being granted only when entering combat on certain rune sets.

 

Agreed. Doesn't make sense to me either. On one hand, summon runes and proc sigils get a 100% effect so they will be active whenever they're ready, yet on the other hand, new effects are introduced that only trigger 1 time (especially during long raid or fractal boss fights). In many cases (like Rune of the Fire), having those effects proc during combat would make a lot of difference.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> Sorry, meant wvw raids. And 125 ferocity is 8.33% damage with max crit (1% crit damage=15 ferocity), so it's an overall gain in dps both above and below

it's a crit damage percentage point increase, while the old 5% was a total damage increase. Different percentages, you can't compare them directly.

 

8% crit damage increase from 0 ferocity is 158/150 = 1.053 base damage, a little above 5% total damage increase.

8% crit damage increase from 1500 ferocity is 258/250 = 1.032, a 3.2% increase

 

So, for a typical power dps it's a slight loss at >90% hp.

 

(125 ferocity is 8.33%, not 8%, of course, but i rounded it up for clarity as it doesn't really matter for the example above. And the actual difference would be really slight anyway)

 

> @"dusanyu.4057" said:

> my concern is some of these materials required one rune requires are rather rare for example Azurite Orbs,

Wait, what? Azurite orbs no longer even drop, do they (they dropped only from the orichalcum node from the original molten dungeon, which was downgraded to mithril node in molten furnace fractal), and they cannot be upgraded from azurite crystals that do still drop.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"ThiBash.5634" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > One thing I am not a fan of is boons being granted only when entering combat on certain rune sets.

>

> Agreed. Doesn't make sense to me either. On one hand, summon runes and proc sigils get a 100% effect so they will be active whenever they're ready, yet on the other hand, new effects are introduced that only trigger 1 time (especially during long raid or fractal boss fights). In many cases (like Rune of the Fire), having those effects proc during combat would make a lot of difference.

>

 

Perhaps a solution could be giving the boons an in-combat reapplication function with an ICD to allow for better use in prolonged fights.

[Nate.3927]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> Over all I like the direction that ANet took for this, despite a few overperforming outliers (Tormenting, Antitoxin, Defending, Speed, possibly more) and underperforming choices (Svanir's 6-piece stands out).

>

> One thing I am not a fan of is boons being granted only when entering combat on certain rune sets. This seems very poorly implemented given the short duration of the boons granted. Reminds me of the Opening Strike mechanic for Ranger, which to me seems terribly outdated.

>

> Also, Sigil of Cleansing clearing 3 conditions in WvW is just silly. Please split it back to 1 and keep it at 3 for PvE.

 

I understand most of what you said, but why is Tormenting considered overperforming? Is it healing on each Torment tick? Because the text seems to imply healing on application which doesn't seem all that OP.

[Jimbru.6014]

> @"Astyrah.4015" said:

> so would anyone care to give a tl;dr like is Scholar still the general BiS for most PvE power builds? or is Ogre/Eagle/Ranger up there as an alternative?

 

Depending on your stat mix, Ogre/Eagle/Ranger or other alternatives can be good. Particularly if you want more Precision for crits. Having a billion Ferocity does you no good if you never crit.

[Jimbru.6014]

My present major beef with the rune changes is Altruism. I used Runes of Altruism on my Marshal-geared PVE support scourge to provide extra offensive buffs -- not just in groups, but also for my own soloing. Now that's gone, and I have no idea what to replace Altruism with for a hybrid play style. :(

[GWMO.4785]

Old: Adds 6% to _**current**_ condition damage

New: +5% Condition Damage

 

Before this sigil only added 6% to base condi damage. Not taking in count amplifiers like traits etc. ([source](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Bursting "Source")). With the "rework" of the sigil/rune system. Has this been fixed? Which would mean a potential buff to condition builds. Or is this a straight up 1% nerf?

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> My present major beef with the rune changes is Altruism. I used Runes of Altruism on my Marshal-geared PVE support scourge to provide extra offensive buffs -- not just in groups, but also for my own soloing. Now that's gone, and I have no idea what to replace Altruism with for a hybrid play style. :(

 

Ever since they came down in price, when in doubt I have been going Traveler runes. Little boost to everything so passable for all builds, and the speed boost frees up either a trait or skill slot that I don't need to use for speed.

[Lolivia.3219]

really not getting why leadership requires you to run dragonstand multiple times and spend quite some machettes to get the full 6, and its barely better, if not actually worse, than rune of the water now, which cost 1g 29 atm.......... really worth it, only reason people wanted leadership was the extra buff duration...whatever....

[Hesacon.8735]

There is an undocumented change to Divinity Runes, where the 6th bonus also adds +10% maximum health.

[Lord Alfred.6541]

Hello Everyone. I like to know, what you think about the latest changes on runes and sigils.

 

I think the receipts are too expansive. I will argue this by using the Sigil of Bloodlust as a reference.

Before the changes, you had the chance of getting the sigil of 80% from a bloodlust weapon with the mythic salvaging kit. Now you have an 80% chance(number not correct, actually <20%) of getting a symbol from salvaging and a few lucent motes. But there is the problem, for crafting the Sigil of Bloodlust, you need 2 of this symbols. So now, you have to salvage at least 2 times the weapon(actually more). That is not all, the receipt requires also 10 Vials of Powerful Blood(price: 3,3g) and 10 ectos(1,7g), with the price of the lucent motes required for crafting and the symbols the crafting price of the symbol is around 7g. That is 10 times the price from before(70s). It is the for all runes and sigils.

There are no possibilities of regaining the upgrade from an item without using the item shop.

 

I request from Arenanet a chance at the receipts. Reducing the costs of this sigil to 1 ecto, 1 vial of powerful blood, 1 symbol and 1 Lucent crystal. Also, they have to fix the salvaging and insert a possibility of regaining the sigils and runes without using the gem store.

 

What do you think? I like to know your opinion.

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> There is an undocumented change to Divinity Runes, where the 6th bonus also adds +10% maximum health.

 

this has been around since last balance patch already

 

 

[Elknif.1805]

There are a number of things I like about these changes (love the vs monster group sigil changes, they are no longer absolute garbage), and one major one I dislike. I'm not surprised by some of them, such as rune sets losing their unique mechanics. This happened in GW1 with some skills (read: Xinrae elite skills on ritualist). Those changes make it easier to balance in the long run, I get it.

 

What I don't get though, is the salvage changes. Unless I'm missing something, there are now _only 2 ways to get runes/sigils: crafting or BL Salvage Kit._ Both of those are "garaunteed", as in, you'll always get the rune/sigil. The problem I see with this is that there is no longer a **random** way to get runes/sigils. There are random ways to get pre-cursors **and** ascended gear (the highest stat gear in the game). Both of these things are for level 80s only. Runes/Sigils are for **every level**, but there is no random way to get them? That basically removes them from the game for up and coming characters, especially new comers to the game.

 

My proposal: Put rune/sigil salvage chance back into the salvage kits, but at a lower %. Specifically at 1/4 of the Upgrade component %. So for a master/mystic kit, which has 80% upgrade chance, the rune/sigil chance would be 20%. This check would be exclusive to the rune/sigil, and would be mutually exclusive to getting lucent motes as well. Meaning, do a check to get the rune/sigil first, if it succeeds, no chance at lucent motes. If it fails, then it goes to the 80% chance for the lucent motes. That way, you can get one or the other in a salvage, but no both. This would lessen the number of runes/sigils salvaged, but also keep a chance at getting them. The BL Salvage kit should still stay as 100% chance for the rune/sigil.

 

Proposal Part 2: I haven't looked/read into this part much, but I think that salvaging runes/sigils themselves for the new charm/symbol pieces should be tied to Upgrade % on salvage kits. Again using master/mystic level kit as an example, 80%. So if I salvage a rune with a master kit, I should have an 80% chance to get the symbol/charm. I think the quantity received from the salvage should be tied to the tier of the rune/sigil: Minor = 1, Major = 2-3 (very rare chance at 3), Superior=3-4 (very rare chance at 4), or at least something along those lines.

 

Overall, with the existing changes, it feels like the line into Pay to Win has been crossed, such that BL Salvage Kits are the main way to get runes/sigils, and in some cases (dungeon gear) the _only_ way. That is not cool and leading down a slippery slope.

[IReadYaoi.3789]

remove it at once!!!!

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Aaralyna.3104" said:

> Is it me or does salvaging items (with runes/sigils on them) automatically salvage the runes/sigils at same time? Some items from i.e. dungeons contain sigils/runes I like to use being a rune/sigil (like in old system after salvage) and not salvaged into dust.

>

> I.e Twilight Arbor gears giving Superior Runes of the Nightmare after you salvage the gear it was in.

 

But you can get them directly from the same vendor.....

[Blocki.4931]

There are some things really wonky with this.

 

I was checking whether Rune of Dwayna increased regen effectiveness on Soothing Mist, since that buff literally says "Regenerate health" and changed from Mercy runes for that. Runes of Mercy have 35 Healing power on them. My Soothing Mist (without GM trait) healed for 155 per tick.

 

Slotted in Dwayna Runes, which have 175 Healing power on them and should make regen 20% more effective. Healed 133 per tick.

 

So not only does the regen only apply to the actual regeneration boon, despite the increased healing power my actual healing has DECREASED. I have checked my stats, I don't have any healing power outside of the runes just to make sure the stats are actually granted. I tested this by taking fall damage while in Water Attunement. So why is that a thing? Also just looking at it, but it seems like it was a -20% instead of +20% on that skill, probably just a coincidence but still. Maybe somebody messed up the formula on that one :^)

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

As @"Ayrilana.1396" above indicates, the salvaging of gear was changed too - the only way to get a sigil or rune from a piece of gear now is either Upgrade Extractor or Black Lion Salvage Kit. All lower salvage kits instead directly salvage the upgrade along with the gear.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"Lord Alfred.6541" said:

> Hello Everyone. I like to know, what you think about the latest changes on runes and sigils.

>

> I think the receipts are too expansive. I will argue this by using the Sigil of Bloodlust as a reference.

> Before the changes, you had the chance of getting the sigil of 80% from a bloodlust weapon with the mythic salvaging kit. Now you have an 80% chance(number not correct, actually <20%) of getting a symbol from salvaging and a few lucent motes. But there is the problem, for crafting the Sigil of Bloodlust, you need 2 of this symbols. So now, you have to salvage at least 2 times the weapon(actually more). That is not all, the receipt requires also 10 Vials of Powerful Blood(price: 3,3g) and 10 ectos(1,7g), with the price of the lucent motes required for crafting and the symbols the crafting price of the symbol is around 7g. That is 10 times the price from before(70s). It is the for all runes and sigils.

> There are no possibilities of regaining the upgrade from an item without using the item shop.

>

> I request from Arenanet a chance at the receipts. Reducing the costs of this sigil to 1 ecto, 1 vial of powerful blood, 1 symbol and 1 Lucent crystal. Also, they have to fix the salvaging and insert a possibility of regaining the sigils and runes without using the gem store.

>

> What do you think? I like to know your opinion.

 

Remember that you can get symbols from *all* superior sigils now. This means, if you plan to craft your sigils, that all gear with runes and sigils bring you closer to the upgrade you actually want instead of waiting for a drop of the specific upgrade you want.

 

Let's wait and see what price the materials end up at before we suggest changes to recipes ;)

 

Also, if you *do* get a drop with the upgrade you want, there's always Black Lion Salvage Kit or Upgrade Extractor. BLSK drops from login rewards, make sure to always keep one for those lucky drops you want the upgrade from!

[Lord Alfred.6541]

I am excited to see, how the changes develop in the future and if the BLSC will be a stabilizing factor on it. XD

[Edge.4180]

I really dislike the salvage changes. The frequency of receiving materials for crafting runes/sigils when salvaging certainly seems a whole lot lower than the frequency I used to receive runes/sigils at.. and it takes quite a few of those materials just to craft a single rune or sigil. With these changes it feels like runes and sigils have become a lot less common.

 

Was driving up the costs of runes and sigils and pushing Black Lion Kit sales the primary goal of this particular change? Because that's the impression I'm getting, and I'm failing to see why we would be excited by that.

 

 

[adragonzord.3471]

This patch ruined Rune of Ice!

Having it proc one target on the elite is terrible..

Only build that used the rune was Reaper and the elite has a 90s cd!!

The rune is pretty useless now.. I think that a solution would be to have the nova go off when using a heal skill (30s cd) -- nice for Your Soul Is Mine.

Or at least have the nova go off per target hit (up to 5 novas) on the elite.

Having it go off when you were hit was perfect for Reaper!!

[Jski.6180]

So far it only seems to make bad balancing worst but i need to play with it more.

 

The in combat trigger needs to be looked at it makes low cd in combat trigger effects politeness for most points in the game.

 

There are seeming bug with the runes or major over sights that make some trates end all be on for classes like scourge.

[Sargoth.8104]

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> PSA: Flanking attacks refers to just attacking things from behind.

>

> Doesn't make it any less useless because enemies are usually always facing you. I prefer the 50% chance on crit to get the effect or on Stun/Immobilize condition. If that isn't what it means, that is a combination of miscommunication and poor decisions.

 

Which is what I was asking yesterday. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong.

 

The value of Frailty was debated in these forums before the change, the majority insisting that it was worthless. Nevertheless, I kept one on my Warrior's greatsword just to help accelerate stack building whilst soloing. I found it effective in keeping nearly 25 stacks on a target at all times.

 

As I said, flanking attacks are a thing for Adventurers, my Thief has skills that are described as "flanking attacks". My Warrior has no skills so described. If attacking from behind is all that is needed to qualify as a flanking attack, my Warrior would get benefit from the new Frailty only once at the start of combat and only when attacking from behind (for comparison's sake, the old sigil could proc a stack 50% of the time on _every_ hit). For the rest of the fight, the character is holding aggro. With most mobs doing an instant 180 whenever you evade to a point behind them, there is no point during the rest of the fight in which another "flanking attack" would be possible.

 

However, it's a moot point. The Frailty effect does not proc _at all_ with my Warrior since the change. This would seem to indicate that the only thing regarded by Anet as "flanking attacks" are skills actually described in the tooltip as such. The only stacks of vulnerability being applied come from the auto attack, and it's rare I can get more than 10 on before the earliest ones start expiring.

 

But again, Anet could have avoided this speculation _simply by clearly stating that some of these upgrades are now only useful to certain classes_. I fail to see how narrowing the usefulness of upgrades makes for "more variety" when in fact it means that fewer people will be using some of them.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Sargoth.8104" said:

> > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > PSA: Flanking attacks refers to just attacking things from behind.

> >

> > Doesn't make it any less useless because enemies are usually always facing you. I prefer the 50% chance on crit to get the effect or on Stun/Immobilize condition. If that isn't what it means, that is a combination of miscommunication and poor decisions.

>

> Which is what I was asking yesterday. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong.

>

> The value of Frailty was debated in these forums before the change, the majority insisting that it was worthless. Nevertheless, I kept one on my Warrior's greatsword just to help accelerate stack building whilst soloing. I found it effective in keeping nearly 25 stacks on a target at all times.

>

> As I said, flanking attacks are a thing for Adventurers, my Thief has skills that are described as "flanking attacks". My Warrior has no skills so described. If attacking from behind is all that is needed to qualify as a flanking attack, my Warrior would get benefit from the new Frailty only once at the start of combat and only when attacking from behind (for comparison's sake, the old sigil could proc a stack 50% of the time on _every_ hit). For the rest of the fight, the character is holding aggro. With most mobs doing an instant 180 whenever you evade to a point behind them, there is no point during the rest of the fight in which another "flanking attack" would be possible.

>

> However, it's a moot point. The Frailty effect does not proc _at all_ with my Warrior since the change. This would seem to indicate that the only thing regarded by Anet as "flanking attacks" are skills actually described in the tooltip as such. The only stacks of vulnerability being applied come from the auto attack, and it's rare I can get more than 10 on before the earliest ones start expiring.

>

> But again, Anet could have avoided this speculation _simply by clearly stating that some of these upgrades are now only useful to certain classes_. I fail to see how narrowing the usefulness of upgrades makes for "more variety" when in fact it means that fewer people will be using some of them.

 

Flanking attacks are side + behind, always have been. In PvP this isn't very useful, in PvE this is very easy and effective, especially open world.

 

It's more likely that some effects simply aren't working at the moment, which would be pretty sad. There are many runes and sigils that don't seem to work, not only this and the dwayna rune i mentioned in my previous post