How to Properly Balance Rune of the Sanctuary

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > >

> > > Hm. I think Rune of the Sanctuary interacting with Vampiric/Vampiric Presence is fine.

> > >

> > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> >

> > How many class do you think can actually cleanse 1 condi per second per target on **any** attack?

> >

> > Vampiric/vampire aura's effect on runes is quite minimal though (5 health or so), in terms of healing I see no real loss with runes not proccing with those traits.

> > In terms of might/condi cleanse of AG, I think any compromise that allows runes of sanctuary to proc off Vampiric + AG is direct powercreep that encourages passive gameplay.

> >

> > It's not like Runes of Sanctuary is useless without this interaction. It already does decent passive bonuses with heals like other classes, also giving some AG added bonus to heal skills (core or not), dagger 2 and some utility skills.

>

> Ele has Diamond Skin which cleanses 1 condition every time they're hit above 75% health.

 

1 hit and you're way below 75%... The old version of this trait was much better.

[reikken.4961]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> >

> > I see you're proposing a nerf to scourge rather than merely addressing the rune oversight. If you think a nerf to scourge's condi clear is warranted (in absence of the rune), I disagree, but that's a separate topic.

>

> The rune alone is a massive buff to Blood Scourge's condition clear. The nerf I proposed simply makes it a smaller buff.

 

Scourge does not have rune of sanctuary built in. Nerfing any class so that a specific rune is mandatory is a very bad move.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> > >

> > > I see you're proposing a nerf to scourge rather than merely addressing the rune oversight. If you think a nerf to scourge's condi clear is warranted (in absence of the rune), I disagree, but that's a separate topic.

> >

> > The rune alone is a massive buff to Blood Scourge's condition clear. The nerf I proposed simply makes it a smaller buff.

>

> Scourge does not have rune of sanctuary built in. Nerfing any class so that a specific rune is mandatory is a very bad move.

 

How would putting a .5/1s ICD on AG make Rune of Sanctuary mandatory?

[reikken.4961]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> > > >

> > > > I see you're proposing a nerf to scourge rather than merely addressing the rune oversight. If you think a nerf to scourge's condi clear is warranted (in absence of the rune), I disagree, but that's a separate topic.

> > >

> > > The rune alone is a massive buff to Blood Scourge's condition clear. The nerf I proposed simply makes it a smaller buff.

> >

> > Scourge does not have rune of sanctuary built in. Nerfing any class so that a specific rune is mandatory is a very bad move.

>

> How would putting a .5/1s ICD on AG make Rune of Sanctuary mandatory?

 

It's not to that extreme, but that's the line of reasoning that your proposed fix follows. You're making changes as though scourge is always going to use rune of sanctuary. Nerfing the trait so that the only way to get back the lost power is to take the rune is not good design. Just fix the issue without messing with an already fine trait.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see you're proposing a nerf to scourge rather than merely addressing the rune oversight. If you think a nerf to scourge's condi clear is warranted (in absence of the rune), I disagree, but that's a separate topic.

> > > >

> > > > The rune alone is a massive buff to Blood Scourge's condition clear. The nerf I proposed simply makes it a smaller buff.

> > >

> > > Scourge does not have rune of sanctuary built in. Nerfing any class so that a specific rune is mandatory is a very bad move.

> >

> > How would putting a .5/1s ICD on AG make Rune of Sanctuary mandatory?

>

> It's not to that extreme, but that's the line of reasoning that your proposed fix follows. You're making changes as though scourge is always going to use rune of sanctuary. Nerfing the trait so that the only way to get back the lost power is to take the rune is not good design. Just fix the issue without messing with an already fine trait.

 

The issue is Rune of Sanctuary's interaction with Abrasive Grit. The rune is balanced on every other class so why would you nerf the rune instead of directly tweaking the problem?

 

Again, even with a 2s ICD on AG, it is still way stronger than it's previous iteration when paired with RoS. The current design makes Scourge's essentially immune to condis. However, the rune alone isn't causing the issue, it's AG not having an ICD which is letting it proc an infinite number of times. RoS's description doesn't say, "Cleanse a condition and gain 2 stacks of might every time you hit an enemy with no ICD."

 

Imagine if Diamond Skin didn't have an ICD. Every single time you hit the ele, you'd clear a condition. In this situation, DS is causing a problem, similar to how AG is causing the problem with RoS.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > As I said, "I think a lot of people are overreacting to the rework of this sigil."

> > >

> > > Put a 1s ICD on Abrasive Grit + prevent the rune from affecting downed players. This stops Blood Scourge from stacking 25 might and cuts the condition clear down to 1 per second max (similar to diamond skin). It also slows res speeds to more manageable numbers and prevents people from getting max barrier after getting picked up.

> >

> > You're missing everyone's point. If the rune itself is broken why nerf the class? The only knee jerk going on is you saying nerf the trait and not the root cause.

> >

> > The runes interaction with ressing and life siphon needs to change or the tune needs to be removed.

>

> That's exactly my point. The rune isn't broken. The issues are with it's interaction with Blood Scourge's Abrasive Grit and the bonus res speed.

>

> Rune of Sanctuary is balanced on every other class. The knee-jerk reaction would be to nerf the rune **instead** of solving the actual issues.

 

You know that ArenaNet could kill the interaction between getting ressed easier with Sanctuary runes AND Abrasive Grit..

 

That's dealing with the problem. Don't suggest to nerf Abrasive Grit assuming that every Necro ever will be taking this rune. Also proccing 2 might and a condi clear every half or one second, still not ok for a minor trait that would choke other options in that tier.

 

I agree with half of what you're saying, but kill all the unintended interactions.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > The issue isn't the tiny amount of additional sustain, it's the might and condition clear you get from Abrasive Grit. I suggested that the ICD on AG be 1s per target. This would still still enable Scourge to cleanse several conditions while lowering it's effectiveness against lower numbers of enemies.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I see you're proposing a nerf to scourge rather than merely addressing the rune oversight. If you think a nerf to scourge's condi clear is warranted (in absence of the rune), I disagree, but that's a separate topic.

> > > > >

> > > > > The rune alone is a massive buff to Blood Scourge's condition clear. The nerf I proposed simply makes it a smaller buff.

> > > >

> > > > Scourge does not have rune of sanctuary built in. Nerfing any class so that a specific rune is mandatory is a very bad move.

> > >

> > > How would putting a .5/1s ICD on AG make Rune of Sanctuary mandatory?

> >

> > It's not to that extreme, but that's the line of reasoning that your proposed fix follows. You're making changes as though scourge is always going to use rune of sanctuary. Nerfing the trait so that the only way to get back the lost power is to take the rune is not good design. Just fix the issue without messing with an already fine trait.

>

> **The issue is Rune of Sanctuary's interaction with Abrasive Grit. The rune is balanced on every other class so why would you nerf the rune instead of directly tweaking the problem?**

>

> Again, even with a 2s ICD on AG, it is still way stronger than it's previous iteration when paired with RoS. The current design makes Scourge's essentially immune to condis. However, the rune alone isn't causing the issue, it's AG not having an ICD which is letting it proc an infinite number of times. RoS's description doesn't say, "Cleanse a condition and gain 2 stacks of might every time you hit an enemy with no ICD."

>

> Imagine if Diamond Skin didn't have an ICD. Every single time you hit the ele, you'd clear a condition. In this situation, DS is causing a problem, similar to how AG is causing the problem with RoS.

 

This isn't how this works. Problematic interactions with runes, sigils, or some sort of gear it's always the gear on the chopping block first over the integrity of the entire class itself.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > As I said, "I think a lot of people are overreacting to the rework of this sigil."

> > > >

> > > > Put a 1s ICD on Abrasive Grit + prevent the rune from affecting downed players. This stops Blood Scourge from stacking 25 might and cuts the condition clear down to 1 per second max (similar to diamond skin). It also slows res speeds to more manageable numbers and prevents people from getting max barrier after getting picked up.

> > >

> > > You're missing everyone's point. If the rune itself is broken why nerf the class? The only knee jerk going on is you saying nerf the trait and not the root cause.

> > >

> > > The runes interaction with ressing and life siphon needs to change or the tune needs to be removed.

> >

> > That's exactly my point. The rune isn't broken. The issues are with it's interaction with Blood Scourge's Abrasive Grit and the bonus res speed.

> >

> > Rune of Sanctuary is balanced on every other class. The knee-jerk reaction would be to nerf the rune **instead** of solving the actual issues.

>

> You know that ArenaNet could kill the interaction between getting ressed easier with Sanctuary runes AND Abrasive Grit..

>

> That's dealing with the problem. Don't suggest to nerf Abrasive Grit assuming that every Necro ever will be taking this rune. Also proccing 2 might and a condi clear every half or one second, still not ok for a minor trait that would choke other options in that tier.

>

> I agree with half of what you're saying, but kill all the unintended interactions.

 

Yeah I also suggested removing the interaction between RoS and downed bodies. In my opinion, putting a short ICD on AG so it doesn't proc an infinite number of times while preventing RoS from affecting downed players would solve any issues with the rune.

 

People want the rune to get nerfed instead of AG. If Anet does what they propose and remove the interaction between RoS, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and AG, they'll be left with a normal Blood Scourge build. I think this is a bad idea because it will completely delete an interesting, effective (yet balanced if tweaked the right way) build from the game.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> As I said, "I think a lot of people are overreacting to the rework of this sigil."

>

> Put a 1s ICD on Abrasive Grit + prevent the rune from affecting downed players. This stops Blood Scourge from stacking 25 might and cuts the condition clear down to 1 per second max (similar to diamond skin). It also slows res speeds to more manageable numbers and prevents people from getting max barrier after getting picked up.

 

No icd pls. Why nerf necro when the broken thing is the rune, not the necro trait?

You could instead add an icd on the rune.

 

Because if they nerf abrasive grit, they will do so in all gamemodes. But in pve it's definetly not overpowered, and would result in a straight nerf to support/rezz scourge

[Solidaris.5423]

uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

 

BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > As I said, "I think a lot of people are overreacting to the rework of this sigil."

> >

> > Put a 1s ICD on Abrasive Grit + prevent the rune from affecting downed players. This stops Blood Scourge from stacking 25 might and cuts the condition clear down to 1 per second max (similar to diamond skin). It also slows res speeds to more manageable numbers and prevents people from getting max barrier after getting picked up.

>

> No icd pls. Why nerf necro when the broken thing is the rune, not the necro trait?

> You could instead add an icd on the rune.

>

> Because if they nerf abrasive grit, they will do so in all gamemodes. But in pve it's definetly not overpowered, and would result in a straight nerf to support/rezz scourge

 

That's the thing though. The rune isn't broken. RoS is perfectly fine on every single class except for Blood Scourge. Why? Because of Abrasive Grit.

 

Sticking an ICD on the rune negatively affects every other class using the rune simply because it's interaction with Blood Scourge is overtuned.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

>

> BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

 

One rune getting nerfed and no longer being run is not the freaking end of the world. It just gets tossed on the pile of something like 50 other plus runes no one ever touches in any build ever. People weren't using this rune yesterday and no one cared. At the end of the day either necromancer is getting nerfed or the rune is. And runes and equipment are always on the chopping block before class balance.

 

It needs to be hotfix disabled until the rune can be properly addressed.

 

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > As I said, "I think a lot of people are overreacting to the rework of this sigil."

> > > > >

> > > > > Put a 1s ICD on Abrasive Grit + prevent the rune from affecting downed players. This stops Blood Scourge from stacking 25 might and cuts the condition clear down to 1 per second max (similar to diamond skin). It also slows res speeds to more manageable numbers and prevents people from getting max barrier after getting picked up.

> > > >

> > > > You're missing everyone's point. If the rune itself is broken why nerf the class? The only knee jerk going on is you saying nerf the trait and not the root cause.

> > > >

> > > > The runes interaction with ressing and life siphon needs to change or the tune needs to be removed.

> > >

> > > That's exactly my point. The rune isn't broken. The issues are with it's interaction with Blood Scourge's Abrasive Grit and the bonus res speed.

> > >

> > > Rune of Sanctuary is balanced on every other class. The knee-jerk reaction would be to nerf the rune **instead** of solving the actual issues.

> >

> > You know that ArenaNet could kill the interaction between getting ressed easier with Sanctuary runes AND Abrasive Grit..

> >

> > That's dealing with the problem. Don't suggest to nerf Abrasive Grit assuming that every Necro ever will be taking this rune. Also proccing 2 might and a condi clear every half or one second, still not ok for a minor trait that would choke other options in that tier.

> >

> > I agree with half of what you're saying, but kill all the unintended interactions.

>

> Yeah I also suggested removing the interaction between RoS and downed bodies. In my opinion, putting a short ICD on AG so it doesn't proc an infinite number of times while preventing RoS from affecting downed players would solve any issues with the rune.

>

> People want the rune to get nerfed instead of AG. If Anet does what they propose and remove the interaction between RoS, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and AG, they'll be left with a normal Blood Scourge build. I think this is a bad idea because it will completely delete an interesting, effective (yet balanced if tweaked the right way) build from the game.

 

There's nothing balanced around giving Scourge permanent 25 might and completely immunity to all incoming condition damage. There's nothing unique or interesting about this build. It's just blood scourge but with 25 might and immunity to condition damage. That's the only thing note worthy about this rune and that does not deserve to exist in the game. No one was crying about how bad sanctuary runes were yesterday. If it needs to be smiter's booned it needs to be smiter's booned. And yes, the rune itself is first in line for the nerf bat over necromancer.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

>

> BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

 

Exactly.

 

The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

 

Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

 

So:

 

1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"mortrialus.3062"

 

Putting an 2s ICD on AG would cap out the might stacks at 6 while still giving necros access to a condition cleanse every 2 seconds. That's 5 every 10 seconds or 30 conditions cleansed per minute. This is still incredibly strong and allows RoS to continue being a viable option for most classes/builds.

 

My suggestion solves the issues:

 

1. Easy access to permanent 25 might

2. Infinite condition clears

3. Too much res speed

[Solidaris.5423]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> > If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> > If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

> >

> > BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

>

> Exactly.

>

> The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

>

> Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

>

> So:

>

> 1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

> 2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

> 3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

 

I guess the 3. point would work to reduce the spamming. But I am still interested how the rune works with other passive healing skills on other classes. Do we know anything about this? As I can see this only caused fuss because MigthyTeapot found it out on his stream. I doubt anyone would have noticed it if not for that. I mean who knows maybe it is even more broken on another class which noone noticed yet?

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> If Anet does what they propose and remove the interaction between RoS, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and AG, they'll be left with a normal Blood Scourge build. I think this is a bad idea because it will completely delete an interesting, effective (yet balanced if tweaked the right way) build from the game.

 

You really shouldn't compare it to diamond skin. Chipping 25% off ele is easy, its located in an awkward traitline and not many people run that (among what little left of tempests) with most hybrid condi builds doing decent direct damage in powercreep nowadays. Not to mention in this case we're talking about near condi immunity (even with 1s ICD) without any health restriction or GM usage, while the scourge is perfectly fine to run traitlines that are already meta-defining in current era.

 

Let's be clear here: interaction or not, 1 condi cleanse and 2 might without any skill usage is significant passive buff.

 

Such pure passive buff is something ANet aiming to steer clear off in the past couple of months. While I do agree with interesting interaction, there is no way to tweak it so its balanced. Given the amount of passive benefit it brings you'd need to put at least 5s ICD for condi or even soft CC to actually do something against a scourge build like this. Multiple people here already told you slap ICD on either rune or trait will destroyed respective aspect.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > > uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> > > If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> > > If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

> > >

> > > BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

> >

> > Exactly.

> >

> > The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

> >

> > Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

> >

> > So:

> >

> > 1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

> > 2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

> > 3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

>

> I guess the 3. point would work to reduce the spamming. But I am still interested how the rune works with other passive healing skills on other classes. Do we know anything about this? As I can see this only caused fuss because MigthyTeapot found it out on his stream. I doubt anyone would have noticed it if not for that. I mean who knows maybe it is even more broken on another class which noone noticed yet?

 

Ah yeah, I forgot to respond to that question.

 

So, RoS doesn't affect passive healing at all. The 6th bonus only triggers on active healing skills. This means skills like: Rugged Growth, Adrenal Health, Healing Signet, Signet of Renewal, Regeneration (boon), etc. etc. don't give you additional healing/barrier.

 

However, pulsing heals like Troll Unguent or False Oasis ARE affected by the 6th bonus.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> > If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> > If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

> >

> > BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

>

> Exactly.

>

> The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

>

> Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

>

> So:

>

> 1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

> 2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

> 3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

 

Or 4.) Make it so Rune of Sanctuary's barrier SOLELY does not proc Abraisive grit. (And revive tick 'healing' SOLELY doesn't proc Rune of Sanctuary's barrier.

 

There are many exemptions of abilities that proc certain traits/runes. For example, Medical dispersion field on Engi will not share healing from: Heat Therapy, Backpack Regenerator, but does share healing from Rapid Regeneration.

 

Again, simply make it so Rune of Sanctuary's Barrier does not proc Abraisive Grit's effects, and revive ticks (not real healing) doesn't proc Rune of Sanctuary's Barrier conversion.

 

A much better solution than your suggestion to nerf Abraisive Grit so Necros can still all rune this Rune with still pretty broken synergy.. why do you even want Necro to cleanse condi and gain 2 might every .5-1s? Instead of condi immunity it's not too far from that - all you have to do is be hitting stuff.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Chaith.8256"

 

Yeah that's true. I suggested such a low ICD because I had multiple people telling me that a 1s ICD would completely neuter the trait. Even then, it still didn't make much sense to me because even a 2-3s ICD on AG would still be insanely strong with or without RoS.

 

I like it, but I have mixed feelings because RoS + Blood Scourge could be another viable and fun build to play if tweaked correctly. Completely removing their interactions just results in less build diversity.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"NICENIKESHOE.7128"

 

I agree. I still think .5/1s ICD is still too low. 2-3s ICD on AG is still perfectly viable and still effective especially when paired with RoS.

 

I honestly don't believe having a short ICD on AG will "destroy" it. Like I said at the start, people are overreacting. It will still remain a good option when compared to the other traits in the Adept tier.

[Solidaris.5423]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > > > uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> > > > If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> > > > If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

> > > >

> > > > BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

> > >

> > > Exactly.

> > >

> > > The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

> > >

> > > Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

> > >

> > > So:

> > >

> > > 1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

> > > 2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

> > > 3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

> >

> > I guess the 3. point would work to reduce the spamming. But I am still interested how the rune works with other passive healing skills on other classes. Do we know anything about this? As I can see this only caused fuss because MigthyTeapot found it out on his stream. I doubt anyone would have noticed it if not for that. I mean who knows maybe it is even more broken on another class which noone noticed yet?

>

> Ah yeah, I forgot to respond to that question.

>

> So, RoS doesn't affect passive healing at all. The 6th bonus only triggers on active healing skills. This means skills like: Rugged Growth, Adrenal Health, Healing Signet, Signet of Renewal, Regeneration (boon), etc. etc. don't give you additional healing/barrier.

>

> However, pulsing heals like Troll Unguent or False Oasis ARE affected by the 6th bonus.

 

Thanks for the answer. I was interested in that because I could see some possibility by using the Rune on a Tempest or Warrior using shouts which heal you when traited. This is why I would not really agree on nerfing the rune because who know what kind of useful build we would loose because we nerf the rune due to one trait. I still think one sec CD on Abrasive Grit would be fine.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > > > > uhm guys just an opinion but I think it is not the traits or the rune which is OP but the synergy between the two,

> > > > > If you touch the rune you remove the capability of other classes using it.

> > > > > If you touch the traits you will just close out the traits from being usable if you are not using the rune.

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW a question how is the rune doing with Heal Signets of Ranger / Elementalist / Warrior / Thief or the trait which heals the user like Soothing Mist (Ele) or Invigorating Precision (Thief) or Defy Pain (Warrior) or the other skills I do not remember right now?

> > > >

> > > > Exactly.

> > > >

> > > > The interaction between Rune of Sanctuary, Vampiric/Vampiric Presence, and Abrasive Grit is broken.

> > > >

> > > > Ideally, you'd want to the solution to have the least collateral damage.

> > > >

> > > > So:

> > > >

> > > > 1. If you nerf RoS with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects build diversity for ALL classes.

> > > > 2. If you nerf Vampiric/Vampiric Presence with a .5s/1s ICD, this negatively affects it's interaction with ALL classes and makes the trait too weak to be worth slotting.

> > > > 3. If you nerf Abrasive Grit with an .5s/1s ICD, the trait is still a very viable option and more in line compared to other similar traits.

> > >

> > > I guess the 3. point would work to reduce the spamming. But I am still interested how the rune works with other passive healing skills on other classes. Do we know anything about this? As I can see this only caused fuss because MigthyTeapot found it out on his stream. I doubt anyone would have noticed it if not for that. I mean who knows maybe it is even more broken on another class which noone noticed yet?

> >

> > Ah yeah, I forgot to respond to that question.

> >

> > So, RoS doesn't affect passive healing at all. The 6th bonus only triggers on active healing skills. This means skills like: Rugged Growth, Adrenal Health, Healing Signet, Signet of Renewal, Regeneration (boon), etc. etc. don't give you additional healing/barrier.

> >

> > However, pulsing heals like Troll Unguent or False Oasis ARE affected by the 6th bonus.

>

> Thanks for the answer. I was interested in that because I could see some possibility by using the Rune on a Tempest or Warrior using shouts which heal you when traited. This is why I would not really agree on nerfing the rune because who know what kind of useful build we would loose because we nerf the rune due to one trait. I still think one sec CD on Abrasive Grit would be fine.

 

I agree.

 

I'm trying to remain as impartial as possible with my suggestions. As a main side noder, I tried to weigh how these balance changes would affect different matchups, the overall meta, and build diversity.

 

As someone who plays every class, I feel like bringing AG more in line with other condition clear traits with a 1-3s ICD and leaving RoS alone is the correct way to go. This method still allows for Blood Scourge to interact with AG (and remain viable) while not harming build diversity for any other class. Unfortunately, if the interaction is completely removed, necro will have one less build to play.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"Chaith.8256"

>

> Yeah that's true. I suggested such a low ICD because I had multiple people telling me that a 1s ICD would completely neuter the trait. Even then, it still didn't make much sense to me because even a 2-3s ICD on AG would still be insanely strong with or without RoS.

>

> I like it, but I have mixed feelings because RoS + Blood Scourge could be another viable and fun build to play if tweaked correctly. Completely removing their interactions just results in less build diversity.

 

Abraisive Grit is a trait that you strategically use your barriers to cleanse conditions with. Having no ICD is key so you can:

 

- Sand Cascade, Desert Shroud, Manifest Sand Shade (with the barrier granting Master trait), Sand Swell, Sand Flare - do this all freely in a short period without worrying about a 2-3s ICD on the effect.

 

Getting Might and condi clear from any attack whether it's every 5.s, 1s, 2s, or 3s, that you've suggested, it's just passive and unplanned. Abraisive Grit is designed to build synergy with your barrier granting skills & traits, not to be ruled by one rune.

 

I think you should give up on suggesting to keep this Runeset super extra potent for Scourge alone. The fact that all the siphons work with it, that IS a good synergy. It'd still be a totally respectable rune for any Blood/Wells spec.

 

 

 

 

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Or 4.) Make it so Rune of Sanctuary's barrier SOLELY does not proc Abraisive grit. (And revive tick 'healing' SOLELY doesn't proc Rune of Sanctuary's barrier.

>

> There are many exemptions of abilities that proc certain traits/runes. For example, Medical dispersion field on Engi will not share healing from: Heat Therapy, Backpack Regenerator, but does share healing from Rapid Regeneration.

>

> Again, simply make it so Rune of Sanctuary's Barrier does not proc Abraisive Grit's effects, and revive ticks (not real healing) doesn't proc Rune of Sanctuary's Barrier conversion.

>

> A much better solution than your suggestion to nerf Abraisive Grit so Necros can still all rune this Rune with still pretty broken synergy.. why do you even want Necro to cleanse condi and gain 2 might every .5-1s? Instead of condi immunity it's not too far from that - all you have to do is be hitting stuff.

 

Why do you suggest this exactly? Instead of the Sanctuary runes t6 bonus simply not proccing from life-steal and ressing?

 

The rune seems to have a weird interaction with barrier itself btw. If you use Desert Empowerment, using F1 will give +20% barrier but F3 and F5 don't.

[Solidaris.5423]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256"

> >

> > Yeah that's true. I suggested such a low ICD because I had multiple people telling me that a 1s ICD would completely neuter the trait. Even then, it still didn't make much sense to me because even a 2-3s ICD on AG would still be insanely strong with or without RoS.

> >

> > I like it, but I have mixed feelings because RoS + Blood Scourge could be another viable and fun build to play if tweaked correctly. Completely removing their interactions just results in less build diversity.

>

> Abraisive Grit is a trait that you strategically use your barriers to cleanse conditions with. Having no ICD is key so you can:

>

> - Sand Cascade, Desert Shroud, Manifest Sand Shade (with the barrier granting Master trait), Sand Swell, Sand Flare - do this all freely in a short period without worrying about a 2-3s ICD on the effect.

>

> Getting Might and condi clear from any attack whether it's every 5.s, 1s, 2s, or 3s, that you've suggested, it's just passive and unplanned. Abraisive Grit is designed to build synergy with your barrier granting skills & traits, not to be ruled by one rune.

>

> I think you should give up on suggesting to keep this Runeset super extra potent for Scourge alone. The fact that all the siphons work with it, that IS a good synergy. It'd still be a totally respectable rune for any Blood/Wells spec.

>

What if:

There would not be a cooldown on the whole trait but it would still grant barrier without cooldown condi cleanse with a CD of 3 seconds and give Might with a cooldown 3 seconds or something like that?