Superior Runes of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit [merged]

[rev in love.8439]

> @"Aye.8392" said:

> The nerf should have absolutely been to the rune and not to the trait. This is not a good fix.

 

Why? My opinion has explanation, new rune makes abrasive grit is OP without cd, since this already existed before but only acts for scourage barriers, but now when using this rune you create barriers by using any ability just for hitting your enemy doing clean one condition per blow and 25 of continuous and passive power. Do you want to remove cd abrasive grit? Well simply Anet must make the rune can not activate abrasive grit and ready, everyone happy? Since if you put cd in the rune, only scourage would benefit from this rune, which is a great nerf for many professions that use it too. How would you scourages mains to not nerf all the professions putting cd in that rune and that everyone is happy without being as selfish as they are being?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"rev in love.8439" said:

> > @"Aye.8392" said:

> > The nerf should have absolutely been to the rune and not to the trait. This is not a good fix.

>

> Why? My opinion has explanation, new rune makes abrasive grit is OP without cd, since this already existed before but only acts for scourage barriers, but now when using this rune you create barriers by using any ability just for hitting your enemy doing clean one condition per blow and 25 of continuous and passive power. Do you want to remove cd abrasive grit? Well simply Anet must make the rune can not activate abrasive grit and ready, everyone happy? Since if you put cd in the rune, only scourage would benefit from this rune, which is a great nerf for many professions that use it too. How would you scourages mains to not nerf all the professions putting cd in that rune and that everyone is happy without being as selfish as they are being?

 

Exactly the RUNE makes the trait op, not the other way around. By nerfing the trait, you hit all builds, even those that don't use the rune. Also it wont be a nerf to other profs since the rune is so new that nothing solid has been built around it. Nerfing the rune at wrost sends theory crafters back to the drawing board with lighter pockets.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"rev in love.8439" said:

> I would not like that they do nerf to the rune, it would really make it not work in other professions that can use it without being op but efficiently.

> Having cd of 5 sec is not exaggerated, 1 condition clean extra and 3 of power is not wrong and will continue to be used.

> Do you intend to run the rune so that only the scourage will benefit? NO thank you, the rune is not op.

 

The rune is OP in any situation where you can rely on a healer, like a support firebrand, in PvP.

[Phantom.2976]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>

> Sanctuary is bound to create issues with other professions as well,

 

It's not rune of sanctuary but check this vid by cellofrag

 

[perilisk.1874]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

 

There's a straightforward way to do it: you just change AG to a trait that modifies shade and punishment skills, so that it procs when those skills grant barrier. Doesn't hurt support scourge, AFAIK, and no more rune interaction.

[perilisk.1874]

Remove the ICD, and make AG only proc off barrier applied by shade and punishment skills.

[Tsan.6431]

Insant of ICD :

a) If you gain more than 1000 pt barrier : remove a condition.

or

b) if you gain a barrier : add a "dontlikenecro" token ... when you have 5 or more tokens remove them and remove 1 condition.

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"Tsan.6431" said:

> Insant of ICD :

> a) If you gain more than 1000 pt barrier : remove a condition.

 

That's actually a really nice idea. Having a numerical threshold for the trait would be a good way of keeping Sanc Rune interaction under control while also still maintaining the trait interaction with all of the barrier-granting Scourge skills. Threshold number could be adjusted accordingly. +1 to your idea.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Tsan.6431" said:

> Insant of ICD :

> a) If you gain more than 1000 pt barrier : remove a condition.

 

**This is the best idea I've seen as it allows for all of the scourge barriers to function as originally balanced with abrasive grit since all of the scourge barriers are greater than 1k with zero healing power.** Furthermore, any ally that heals you for 5k or more will give you a 1k+ barrier and proc abrasive grit when you have sanctuary equipped. 5k ally heals aren't too common so problem solved from allies proccing this combo too often. Consume conditions and well of blood will proc this but blood field, vamp sig and sand flare won't without some healing power investment. Maybe make the cutoff 700-900 barrier to make the other heal skills work. This still prevents transfusion, life steal, dagger 2 etc from going nuts with the runes.

 

If there is a technical limit to why the above couldn't be implemented, they could try to hard code abrasive grit to specifically work with punishment skills and F1, F3, F5.

 

Worst case scenario, I would at least suggest a 1-2 second ICD split in PvE for the support scourges there.

 

An ICD on the rune would ruin the rune. Almost every class will waste the proc on a chip heal (such as vamp aura) and never get any real barrier from it.

 

Side note: Runes of antitoxin makes well of power clear 2 condi per pulse. Spiteful renewal, nefarious favor, and abrasive grit also clear 2 conditions (or convert 1, clear 1 with F2). Consume conditions clears the self vuln (or vuln and blind if you have the runes and spiteful renewal). The runes are condi stats and the current meta wvw scourge (runes aren't available in pvp) is power but thought I would throw that out there for those that want more group condi clear.

[HardRider.2980]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > By design, the rune can be applied to all classes. But its op only when it interacts with abrasive grit. When one of the two needed a tweak...

> > >

> > > *Imo if players want to continue on this, first the players need a reason why they should tweak a functioning rune for all classes, over a specific trait; of a specific class, to win this one.*

> >

> > As far as I could see the biggest issue with it was how it interacted with lifesteal.

> > We know they can adjust things to ignore things like Regen and Lifesteal.

> > It's giving out two confusing things - is LIFESTEAL an actual HEAL or not. Because if it is.. There are many other traits, runes etc that would work with Lifesteal.

> >

> > But the biggest issue now is that 5 ICD is a too bigger nerf. 3 seconds would of been the ideal number to go by really (imho)

>

> I'm holding out hope that this is a hot fix and when they can make life steal not qualify as healing, they'll revert the nerf.

 

And if they came out with a statement explaining this, People wouldn't of raged.

 

[Aslakh.3072]

The problem is that they are unlikely to fix this based on past experiences, I hope i'm wrong but i doubt it. If they wanted an immediate fix without fixing the rune then keep the internal cooldown but buff the trait properly giving it 3 condi clear and increased might not just leaving the main part of the trait in the trash. It would still be a nerf to burst condition clear but also a buff to theoretically sustained condition clear so it wouldn't be a straight out nerf for no reason. But they couldn't even do that. There is literally no defending this change for this reason. The best option is fixing the rune/trait interaction so they can't interact but short of that buff the trait properly with the internal cooldown. There is no excuse for doing neither of these.

[Aslakh.3072]

Any amount of internal cooldown is broken with the current amount of condition clear on the trait. Currently you can clear 5 conditions with the trait in the 5 second internal cooldown by placing multiple shades and other shade skills or even utility skills. Clearing 3 from the trait in 1 second is quite easy with f1, f3 and f5 together. The only way an internal cooldown works is by increasing the amount of condition clear to 3 on the trait. This still nerfs burst clearing, will stay about the same clearing in realtime situations and with increase clearing in perfectly timed barrier application. Overall this is worse for the trait because you can no longer time the condition clear when you need it but would show they atleast care about the players. Of course the ideal situation is removing the rune, changing the rune, or making the trait only work with barrier from scourge skills.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> The trait was good but not spectacular before the rune change occurred. This seems a bit heavy handed. I could see a 1 second ICD being fair, but 5 seconds is a lot.

 

The trait police saw how it could scale to infinity and beyond. I hope Arenanet goes through every trait on every profession and makes sure there are direct or indirect ICDs on all of them for fair balance.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Copperheart.9517" said:

> > > Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

> >

> > Sorta seems logical on my end...

> > Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

> >

> > We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

>

> There are far more options than nerfing the trait or _removing_ the rune. They could have put an ICD on the rune, for example. That would prevent other similarly broken interactions from cropping up.

 

So basically if someone who's not support shares a little bit of healing with you (soothing mist or resolve for example), you'll up with 7 barrier and have to wait on the ICD? Then hope your FB or support can somehow work around this and beat everyones passive healing just so barrier is worth more than 10?

I'm not sure if this was thought out properly.

 

I'm sure Anet will come up with something then revert the change on AG.

 

 

[misterman.1530]

> @"moonboi.1764" said:

> So nerf necro trait instead of fixing the rune issue that caused the problem?!

>

>

> EDIT: should be in necro forum for trait but out here for rune issue.

 

Wow. I get too busy to get into the game for a few days and come back to yet another nerf of necromancers. Jesus wept. Do any of them really play this game at all?

[moonboi.1764]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"moonboi.1764" said:

> > So nerf necro trait instead of fixing the rune issue that caused the problem?!

> >

> >

> > EDIT: should be in necro forum for trait but out here for rune issue.

>

> Wow. I get too busy to get into the game for a few days and come back to yet another nerf of necromancers. Jesus wept. Do any of them really play this game at all?

 

Yet they leave everyone else alone. Anyone seen the ele build that’s damn near unkillable now. Because, oh wait, a certain new runes 6th bonus has no ICD. Again, I hate saying it but the necro hate is strong.

 

 

EDIT: For reference, on the unkillable ele build. Just pop on the evasion runes and start popping evades in water and enjoy. Btw, that won’t get a nerf. $20 on it right now.

[Eramonster.2718]

> @"santso.9201" said:

> Lol they rly rather nerfed necro than fix The actually problem. 5s is way too long, RIP support scourge.

 

More than that. It put a dent to scourge stacking in WvW.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > > By design, the rune can be applied to all classes. But its op only when it interacts with abrasive grit. When one of the two needed a tweak...

> > > >

> > > > *Imo if players want to continue on this, first the players need a reason why they should tweak a functioning rune for all classes, over a specific trait; of a specific class, to win this one.*

> > >

> > > As far as I could see the biggest issue with it was how it interacted with lifesteal.

> > > We know they can adjust things to ignore things like Regen and Lifesteal.

> > > It's giving out two confusing things - is LIFESTEAL an actual HEAL or not. Because if it is.. There are many other traits, runes etc that would work with Lifesteal.

> > >

> > > But the biggest issue now is that 5 ICD is a too bigger nerf. 3 seconds would of been the ideal number to go by really (imho)

> >

> > I'm holding out hope that this is a hot fix and when they can make life steal not qualify as healing, they'll revert the nerf.

>

> And if they came out with a statement explaining this, People wouldn't of raged.

>

 

Speaking of

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit#latest

No changes will be made and necro deserved the nerf coz other classes needed the rune

[misterman.1530]

Seriously. I think it's time. Too bad I can't sell my account, because I would do it in a heartbeat. Anet - you have no clue. Really, you don't

[HardRider.2980]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > > > By design, the rune can be applied to all classes. But its op only when it interacts with abrasive grit. When one of the two needed a tweak...

> > > > >

> > > > > *Imo if players want to continue on this, first the players need a reason why they should tweak a functioning rune for all classes, over a specific trait; of a specific class, to win this one.*

> > > >

> > > > As far as I could see the biggest issue with it was how it interacted with lifesteal.

> > > > We know they can adjust things to ignore things like Regen and Lifesteal.

> > > > It's giving out two confusing things - is LIFESTEAL an actual HEAL or not. Because if it is.. There are many other traits, runes etc that would work with Lifesteal.

> > > >

> > > > But the biggest issue now is that 5 ICD is a too bigger nerf. 3 seconds would of been the ideal number to go by really (imho)

> > >

> > > I'm holding out hope that this is a hot fix and when they can make life steal not qualify as healing, they'll revert the nerf.

> >

> > And if they came out with a statement explaining this, People wouldn't of raged.

> >

>

> Speaking of

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit#latest

> No changes will be made and necro deserved the nerf coz other classes needed the rune

 

I did laugh for a good 5 minutes after posting that comment and seeing a post explaining things lol..

[Yannir.4132]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> Remove the ICD, and make AG only proc off barrier applied by shade and punishment skills.

 

> @"Tsan.6431" said:

> Insant of ICD :

> a) If you gain more than 1000 pt barrier : remove a condition.

> or

> b) if you gain a barrier : add a "dontlikenecro" token ... when you have 5 or more tokens remove them and remove 1 condition.

>

 

Yes. Both of these. (essentially the same thing)

Nerfing necro because you mess up a rune introduction is obscene. It's undeserved. Doesn't matter what the result is. When an interaction is too strong, it's the cause that should be addressed, not the base.

 

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065"

Sorry for tagging but I'm hoping the 5 sec ICD on Abrasive Grit is a hotfix while you try to find a better solution for the issue. The barrier threshold would work much better than a flat ICD because the player has control over it and is more predictable.

[Aktium.9506]

giv ideas

 

im mostly thinking about the lost burst cleanse potential and quicker might ramp up and what can be done to offset it

 

going all in and increasing abrasive grit icd to 10 and make it 6 condis cleansed + 8 might for 16 seconds?

leaving it as is and giving staff back putrid mark's ally cleanse instead?

[Sigmoid.7082]

Nafarious Favour:

Increased the conditions converted to boon to 2.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 simple changes:

- Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

- Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

[XECOR.2814]

F2 nafarious favour seems very underpowered with 1 cleanse for the lf cost and cd. Maybe bump the cleanse back up to 2 when Abrasive grit is traited?