Superior Runes of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit [merged]

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> 2 simple changes:

> - Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

> - Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

 

Abrasive Grit was broken by Design.

 

Effects were A triggers B without a Limit will always see sooner or later a nerf/ban.

 

It only take time for something to come up that breaks it.

 

Look at Yu-Gi-Oh! were Cards like Cannonsoldier are Banned.

( No ones per turn)

 

Sure. The first thought is always to remove what caused the „ limit break“ but that never works.

 

There will be allways a new way, people will find a way to break it, the dev have limited design choices.

 

The best solution is to redesign the trait to give it a clear limit.

 

Like: Only trigger on F1 - F5.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > 2 simple changes:

> > - Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

> > - Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

>

> Abrasive Grit was broken by Design.

>

> Effects were A triggers B without a Limit will always see sooner or later a nerf/ban.

>

> It only take time for something to come up that breaks it.

>

> Look at Yu-Gi-Oh! were Cards like Cannonsoldier are Banned.

> ( No ones per turn)

>

> Sure. The first thought is always to remove what caused the „ limit break“ but that never works.

>

> There will be allways a new way, people will find a way to break it, the dev have limited design choices.

>

> The best solution is to redesign the trait to give it a clear limit.

>

> Like: Only trigger on F1 - F5.

>

>

>

>

>

 

Problem is that there is plenty of trait that work like that with no ICD and that was fine up to now. All elementalist aura traits work like that, what if tomorow ANet put a 4 second ICD on all elementalist aura traits because stacking boon via generating aura become somehow broken? What about slapping an ICD on _might make right_ on the warrior because _forcefull greatsword_ end up having broken interaction with it? What about putting ICDs on all dodge/evade traits so that everyone have to time it's dodge to gain the traited effects (to make it fun you could even put different ICD, this would end up awesome)?

 

The rune was broken, not the trait. The trait ended up being killed by an ICD, thoroughly killing it's support aspect. The proper choice was to remove the runeset from the game and put on the "to do" list a rework of _abrasive grit_ mechanism.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > 2 simple changes:

> > - Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

> > - Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

>

> Abrasive Grit was broken by Design.

>

> Effects were A triggers B without a Limit will always see sooner or later a nerf/ban.

>

> It only take time for something to come up that breaks it.

>

> Look at Yu-Gi-Oh! were Cards like Cannonsoldier are Banned.

> ( No ones per turn)

>

> Sure. The first thought is always to remove what caused the „ limit break“ but that never works.

>

> There will be allways a new way, people will find a way to break it, the dev have limited design choices.

>

> The best solution is to redesign the trait to give it a clear limit.

>

> Like: Only trigger on F1 - F5.

>

>

>

>

>

 

Wanna talk about alot of other classes that have passive triggers without icd?

 

Why is only necro getting nerfed then?

Because it had one op interaction?

 

Let me tell you this, weaver has one as well. It makes him invulnerable to conditions and in addition he can dodge a lot. And if you manage to hit him in his permanent evade kitten, he will just heal back to full.

[reapex.8546]

Hello,

Just a general question about the Rune of the Sanctuary; When the necro receives a barrier, does allies near that Necro also receive the barrier?

From the rune description it seems like only the rune wearer would receive barrier.

[Kumouta.4985]

> @"reapex.8546" said:

> Hello,

> Just a general question about the Rune of the Sanctuary; When the necro receives a barrier, does allies near that Necro also receive the barrier?

> From the rune description it seems like only the rune wearer would receive barrier.

 

Only the user.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > 2 simple changes:

> > > - Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

> > > - Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

> >

> > Abrasive Grit was broken by Design.

> >

> > Effects were A triggers B without a Limit will always see sooner or later a nerf/ban.

> >

> > It only take time for something to come up that breaks it.

> >

> > Look at Yu-Gi-Oh! were Cards like Cannonsoldier are Banned.

> > ( No ones per turn)

> >

> > Sure. The first thought is always to remove what caused the „ limit break“ but that never works.

> >

> > There will be allways a new way, people will find a way to break it, the dev have limited design choices.

> >

> > The best solution is to redesign the trait to give it a clear limit.

> >

> > Like: Only trigger on F1 - F5.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Wanna talk about alot of other classes that have passive triggers without icd?

>

> Why is only necro getting nerfed then?

> Because it had one op interaction?

>

> Let me tell you this, weaver has one as well. It makes him invulnerable to conditions and in addition he can dodge a lot. And if you manage to hit him in his permanent evade kitten, he will just heal back to full.

 

If the Weaver stuff is also op then there also has to be change.

 

The point is, effect like this needs a limit.

 

ICD‘s are an option but not a good one.

 

I say the change is ok as long Anet changes it another way later.

 

They already asked for ideas.

 

 

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > 2 simple changes:

> > > - Make _abrasive grit_ only work on _manifest sand shade_ use (F1): Give us back the lost freedom to cleanse and buff (No Mr Irenio, the ICD on the trait was the worst choice, you just don't break old things that are balanced for a new thing that you could have just shut down without any impact on anyone. What wasn't taken into account into your argumentation is that this trait is supposed to be an altruistic trait not a selfish one and sanctuary runeset coupled with abrasive grit and any other small heal now prevent this trait from being an altruistic one by only benefiting(?) the scourge and not it's teammates.)

> > > - Bring back the 2nd condi conversion on _nefarious favor_: We lost tons of condi cleanse (support) with the ICD, for the condi manipulation profession that's a shame so I guess simply bringing back this lost support shouldn't be much.

> >

> > Abrasive Grit was broken by Design.

> >

> > Effects were A triggers B without a Limit will always see sooner or later a nerf/ban.

> >

> > It only take time for something to come up that breaks it.

> >

> > Look at Yu-Gi-Oh! were Cards like Cannonsoldier are Banned.

> > ( No ones per turn)

> >

> > Sure. The first thought is always to remove what caused the „ limit break“ but that never works.

> >

> > There will be allways a new way, people will find a way to break it, the dev have limited design choices.

> >

> > The best solution is to redesign the trait to give it a clear limit.

> >

> > Like: Only trigger on F1 - F5.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Problem is that there is plenty of trait that work like that with no ICD and that was fine up to now. All elementalist aura traits work like that, what if tomorow ANet put a 4 second ICD on all elementalist aura traits because stacking boon via generating aura become somehow broken? What about slapping an ICD on _might make right_ on the warrior because _forcefull greatsword_ end up having broken interaction with it? What about putting ICDs on all dodge/evade traits so that everyone have to time it's dodge to gain the traited effects (to make it fun you could even put different ICD, this would end up awesome)?

>

> The rune was broken, not the trait. The trait ended up being killed by an ICD, thoroughly killing it's support aspect. The proper choice was to remove the runeset from the game and put on the "to do" list a rework of _abrasive grit_ mechanism.

 

Traits without ICD are sometimes limited another way.

Tempest Aura Traits are limited by Aura Cds.

 

But sure.

If a rune would be intrudust that create unlimited aura it also would break the trait.

 

MMR is by design broken yes.

All it needs is a unlimited Might Source.

 

Could that happen?

Sure.

 

 

A effect/skill/trait that has no limiting factor are broken by design.

 

Believe me, it can happen to all of them.

 

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

what about changing the barrier application from the rune not affecting the trait and reverse the change ?

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

>

> There's a straightforward way to do it: you just change AG to a trait that modifies shade and punishment skills, so that it procs when those skills grant barrier. Doesn't hurt support scourge, AFAIK, and no more rune interaction.

 

That would be a change that has to be saved for the next weekly patch or balance patch as that involves a few different skills and change of mechanics slightly. Thats not something you do in a hot fix but yes that could have worked as well.

[ZDragon.3046]

People say the rune was broken but no other profession had an issue with it except scourge that means the rune is not broken this means that scourge has poorly flawed design that was nor foresaw when the consideration of this rune was thought out. In fact scourge was the only one to have a **"Broken"** interaction with it.

So you don't kill the rune which works fine as intended on every other profession and only busted with scourge. Instead you fix the scourge interaction problem.

This serves 2 purposes

- Future QoL if they ever want to find more or new ways to bring barrier to necormancer at a core level or though other runes or traits (or even shared by other professions) the issue simply wont resurface again and they wont have to write exception codes each time. Remember adding content without simplifying quality of life and standards makes increased workload when checking for broken interactions.

- It allows them to continue to test the new interaction across all professions rather than just removing something from the game right away because one elite spec could abuse it. (they can decide later if they want to remove it if it simply does not work out as fair tool across many professions and specs.)

 

**"Why didn't they just do 'x and y'."**

Keep in mind most of the ideas that fall under the "They should have just done 'this or that'." category negates the 2 purposes above and were not not key solutions for a quick **hot fix** patch and thus likely why they didn't do them.

 

#My Thoughts for revamping the trait

Personally would rather see a whole rework of scourge entirely but for contributing to the fix of this particular trait. I would Remove the outlying factor by Un constricting the trait from barrier application and give it another key trigger instead.

 

**Abrasive Grit** (returns to having no icd)

Manifest Sand shade and other Shade skills Grant might & Cleanse one condition from allies in their radius on activation.

 

Just like that scourge has nearly every bit of every thing back without the need to worry about future mistakes with barrier application

They wont need to write exceptions every time if they want to add more barrier mechanics in the Future to keep the this trait from breaking over again.

[ZDragon.3046]

My question is why are you trying to change a core trait when it was not the the key problem with the interaction. IF you take this rune with the trait you called out under core necromancer it works as intended infact its not broken at all at best you get 120-200 points of barrier which is milted away by a single condtion tick or 2 even if the person applying that conndition is on a power build. The same goes fro reaper.

 

- The problem didn't start till you started to look at scourge.

- Your fix is not a fix tot be done on a hot fix

 

I will continue to say it again and again scourge needed that fix for the time being. You dont like it but there was no other way around it and thats a simple fact.

So many suggestions ive seen are implying that core blood magic traits should not trigger it when they were not the problem

Or to make barrier activate it on a numerical value which is going to seem like clunky code work not to mention it just sounds silly. No other traits work on numerical value (most of them are percent based) like that so it would likely have to be newly written and tested code not idea for a hot fix.

 

To be honest this could benfit scourge more in the long run and people are just not willing to wait and or see if it does.

 

My proposal would be to simply untie Abrasive from barrier application and link it back to scourge shade skills instead and maybe this will be what anet does in the next weekly patch or balance patch.

It would give you

- your burst condi cleanse if you use all skills at once

- your area support for allies

- Remove the need of a internal cooldown from the trait a its now limited by life force management and shade cooldowns

- Prevent the trait from being abused again in the future if they add more barrier application mechanics to the game

- Prevent them from having to write exception codes every time when they add new barrier mechanics to the game.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> i think anet didnt want it to work on regen cause it would have been broken. they just missed scourge trait and fixed it too.

 

It wont work on most passive healing abilities me and a friend tested what had to be almost all professions and their traits and its odd that it seems to mostly be tied to traits that heal you for doing an action of some sort but not passive traits that tend to linger over a long time (meaning you could get the effect for doing nothing )

 

Things like might makes right will trigger it But adrinal health will not, I suspect the unholy sanctuary trait in death magic on necro wont trigger it because of how passive it is But life steal effects do because they require you to be constantly attacking to make them trigger.

 

Most things that trigger the barrier application require you to do something Oddly enough rousing resilience on warrior will not trigger it although it requires the action of breaking a stun. But this was likely decided to prevent over rewarding (getting all that toughness, a meaty heal, and a mini barrier) might have been too much on paper.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

You may (or may not) have noticed that Systems Team Lead Irenio Calmon-Huang has posted a detailed comment on this topic [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit "here"). Please feel free to share your thoughts there after you have read the post. Thanks.

[reapex.8546]

> @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> > @"reapex.8546" said:

> > Hello,

> > Just a general question about the Rune of the Sanctuary; When the necro receives a barrier, does allies near that Necro also receive the barrier?

> > From the rune description it seems like only the rune wearer would receive barrier.

>

> Only the user.

 

Thank you :D

[Lily.1935]

We finally get a really unique and cool interaction with a single rune and everyone wants to nerf it. Whether or not this is the right move it really depresses me that the only fun rune is being attacked. These sort of unique build effect is what I wanted from runes. Not this specifically, but people like doing these crazy things and runes and sigils are so homogenized that it's just detracts from build diversity and customization.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> We finally get a really unique and cool interaction with a single rune and everyone wants to nerf it. Whether or not this is the right move it really depresses me that the only fun rune is being attacked. These sort of unique build effect is what I wanted from runes. Not this specifically, but people like doing these crazy things and runes and sigils are so homogenized that it's just detracts from build diversity and customization.

 

When the choice is between nerfing your profession and nerfing a rune, that existed in its current form for a few days, you bet your bottom dollar most people will want the rune nerfed. That's just common sense.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Phantom.2976" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> >

> > Sanctuary is bound to create issues with other professions as well,

>

> It's not rune of sanctuary but check this vid by cellofrag

>

>

 

Clearly Rune of Evasion is a linchpin in many other builds and so Weaver must be nerfed because of this.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Phantom.2976" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > >

> > > Sanctuary is bound to create issues with other professions as well,

> >

> > It's not rune of sanctuary but check this vid by cellofrag

> >

> >

>

> Clearly Rune of Evasion is a linchpin in many other builds and so Weaver must be nerfed because of this.

 

Is "nerf Ele" as much a meme as "nerf Necro?"

 

Also, where is this competition going?

[Gaile Gray.6029]

This thread is made up of half a dozen threads on the same topic. Let's keep the conversation focused in this thread here, or perhaps you want to join the thread that followed the detailed dev post about this subject: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit

 

I think you'll find that thread and the comments interesting and informative reading.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > @"Phantom.2976" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > >

> > > > Sanctuary is bound to create issues with other professions as well,

> > >

> > > It's not rune of sanctuary but check this vid by cellofrag

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Clearly Rune of Evasion is a linchpin in many other builds and so Weaver must be nerfed because of this.

>

> Is "nerf Ele" as much a meme as "nerf Necro?"

>

> Also, where is this competition going?

 

I'm parodying what some guy said concerning Sanctuary runes being useful for other classes, which they saw as justification to nerf AG. "If a rune is broken for a profession, nerf the profession" is now the apparent consensus.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > We finally get a really unique and cool interaction with a single rune and everyone wants to nerf it. Whether or not this is the right move it really depresses me that the only fun rune is being attacked. These sort of unique build effect is what I wanted from runes. Not this specifically, but people like doing these crazy things and runes and sigils are so homogenized that it's just detracts from build diversity and customization.

>

> When the choice is between nerfing your profession and nerfing a rune, that existed in its current form for a few days, you bet your bottom dollar most people will want the rune nerfed. That's just common sense.

 

You're missing the point of the post. I wasn't talking specifically about whether or not the calls for nerfs are justified. More that I'm upset with how uninspired the new changes have been overall. And that the community has such a knee jerk reaction to something very different to the usual.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Meanwhile if you head over to the elementalist forum, they got a new condi immunity build with runes of evasion and weaver setup.

 

They are saying it's not OP because you can bring a power build to kill them. Wasn't that the same case for Scourge but we got nerfed.

 

And with high regen and protection uptime, weavers are pretty impervious to power opponents as well.

 

And worse, Scourge OP interaction with Sanctuary runes only benefited themselves.

Weavers op interaction with runes of evasion apparently affects allies as well.

[cylin.7048]

Weaver needs no nerf, only this specific rune. Weaver just has the problem that a certain super high skilled pro keeps on posting the best of his fights so everyone thinks thats how weavers usually roll. They don't.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"cylin.7048" said:

> Weaver needs no nerf, only this specific rune.

 

I believe scourges were saying the exact same thing before the nerf bat fell.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"cylin.7048" said:

> > Weaver needs no nerf, only this specific rune.

>

> I believe scourges were saying the exact same thing before the nerf bat fell.

 

Looks like it's time for Anet to put PvP ele out of it's misery. RIP

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"cylin.7048" said:

> > > Weaver needs no nerf, only this specific rune.

> >

> > I believe scourges were saying the exact same thing before the nerf bat fell.

>

> Looks like it's time for Anet to put PvP ele out of it's misery. RIP

 

This wouldn't be an especialy wise decision but let's be honest, a runeset that can grant up to 1 minute of swiftness thanks to evading damage is certainly not broken in ANet's view. After all metric show that it is pretty easy for most of the profession to stack 1 minute of swiftness by themself already, so how can this be an issue?