Callout to devs for explanation

[XECOR.2814]

Please explain the reasoning of nerfing a necromancer support trait because you released a rune without considering necromancer's traits.

 

There are so few specs that have barrier application. When you create a new item, dont you want to test its interaction with everything else in the game that might be affected by it?

And tbh it was not so hard in this case.

 

I dont want to sound rude but yes now i also agree that recent events have shown ignorance and incompetency on devs part.

 

If you do not remember every trait from a class of your own game after 6 years then you are incompetent to make judgement regarding balance in my eyes. This is your work not a hobby, you should be forced to remember every damn trait and skill from game as homework on the first week of your job so that these kind of occurence dont happen.

 

Whenever this kind of things happen it leads me to believe there are not enough gamers in the company just workers. They dont know how important every traits interaction with with every build is. They dont even know what builds people are playing and how important it is to them.

 

The point of this thread is that im utterly dissappointed by the recent nerfs to Abrasive Grit minor trait in scourge traitline because of recent outrage of op builds formed with newly released Sanctuary Runes.

 

I need Anets explanantion on the nerfs about why it was nerfed. And what is the reason behind 5sec icd. How do you come up with that number and what is the calculation behind it. Is 1condi clear in 5 secs enough sustain according to them? What about the support builds without that rune? The loss of so much support. Did the decision took that in account?

 

Scourge was introduced as support spec with the ability to might stack, clear condi and provide barrier. Thats the only support it should give. Without going into its meme history. Currently it is used as aoe damage dealer in wvw zergs, non existing in roaming and teamfighter damage dealer in pvp while having 1 build to carry noobs in high end pve which is only required if the whole group is bad otherwise it is not required, the other build is dps on the lower end.

What i want to say is if you create a support spec that only gives support in 1 gamemode and that too in very niche role. Shouldnt you do something about it?

Also that same "support" build does not even provide support from scourge traitline. The major support is from blood traitline. The recent nerfs make the barrier stacking and condi removal in high end pve unusable now. Since you will only remove 1 condi now. This nerf is too heavy handed on the already low tier support builds.

 

Im not defending the op builds or critizing the nerfs. Im just asking for explanation, thought process and testing behind it because i feel it was not justified. If they just put more effort in disabling the rune from whole game for some days and came up with better solution than just nerfing the trait it wouldve been better.

 

Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

 

While youre at it please explain your take on death magic traitline and traits like reapers protection snd unholy sanctuary. Why traited plague signet is worse than untraited. Why death shroud skills have 40sec cds?

 

Why there is no communication and explanation on profession subforums?

[Sephylon.4938]

you're very unlikely to get one. This is the place where all things go to be forgotten and die.

 

>Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

 

my tin foil hat theory on this: because we're the only flood gate to the boon spam of other classes. They tried to make sb, mes and rev flood gates as well, but their boon rip pales in comparison to boon corrupts especially since ours comes with a pulsing aoe on a 900 range with a relatively short cd. Essentially imo, the necro is the anti everything so it can't be anything except that otherwise it would be too much for everyone else.

 

Some minor nitpicks

>What about the support builds without that rune? The loss of so much support. Did the decision _take_ that in account?

 

 

>having 1 build to carry noobs in high end pvp which is only required if the whole group is bad otherwise it is not required, the other build is dps on the lower end.

do you mean pve?

 

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> you're very unlikely to get one. This is the place where all things go to be forgotten and die.

>

> >Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

>

> my tin foil hat theory on this: because we're the only flood gate to the boon spam of other classes. They tried to make sb, mes and rev flood gates as well, but their boon rip pales in comparison to boon corrupts especially since ours comes with a pulsing aoe on a 900 range with a relatively short cd. Essentially imo, the necro is the anti everything so it can't be anything except that otherwise it would be too much for everyone else.

>

> Some minor nitpicks

> >What about the support builds without that rune? The loss of so much support. Did the decision _take_ that in account?

>

>

> >having 1 build to carry noobs in high end pvp which is only required if the whole group is bad otherwise it is not required, the other build is dps on the lower end.

> do you mean pve?

>

 

Yeah pve, my mistake.

 

Im not complaining i just need the reasons communicated.

 

Cant they just rework this class? No one is happy with it. Neither the enemies, nor the players. Not even the developers.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

The problem was the rune interaction with the trait, not the trait. You just killed support scourge capabilities of cleansing conditions for allies, because you made a dumb decision with a rune. Do you even consider what you're doing or no? The trait was fine before the rune,why nerf it?

This proves to me once more, you don't know how trait interactions on build works. To be honest I really have lost all hope with you.

The smart thing was to remove the rune temporarely see what other interactions it has with other traits then reintroduce it with a change, not the nerf the trait because you did not predict an interaction.

Now is impossible to chain barriers to get condi cleanse, and let's be honest here chaining barrier wasn't a problem before and neither is now, since a scourge realistically can only chain 4 barriers at top then it basically has all on cooldown (manifest sand shade when coupled desert empowerment, sand cascade, sand flare and desert shroud).

[Dadnir.5038]

What's ironic is that the condi manipulation profession got even more cluncky with it's condi manipulation job... I just can't fathom their balance logic.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Warning- Next time you see something juicy think of an Angler fish gents. Don't touch it, it's a lure. There's always a nerf waiting in the speed of shadows..I mean shadows..

[HardRider.2980]

We the community have long asked for explanations from the Dev team over certain actions made by them, not (for most of us) to attack, but to clearly help us understand the reasoning behind it.

 

I honestly think the Dev team gets more heat thrown at them for no reason. Reasons which wouldn't exist or in it's form if we had communication.

It amazes me more, that after all these years.. even in a controlled environment, communication is still a major issue with Anet and it's Devs.

[RisenHowl.2419]

If you don't put a drawing of a quaggan in this thread soon, they'll close it for not being cheery enough

[Das Brockenhuhn.6984]

Hmm, if the trait was changed so that it only triggers when a single barrier application of a source exceeds a certain threshold ( like 1k? so that the normal scourge skills can still trigger the trait), the ICD could also be removed.

 

The only synergy I can think of would be with Parasitic Contagion, but one would need 5k condi dmg application for it to trigger which is quite impossible in pvp or wvw( except lord maybe where it doesnt really matter), and in pve ( fracs/raids) where it doesnt play a role either because of the mightstacking of other classes like druids.

 

Just a thought :)

[Lahmia.2193]

It's Chilling Darkness all over again. 7/7/15. Never forget.

[Sephrim.5472]

It's very likely abrasive grit was clumsily recoded, too. The way it is now, The best you can hope for is a condi removal CHECK every 5 seconds. Once the ICD has passed, it will give you might, look for a condi and clear it if it finds one. No condi? No clear for 5s. So you might go 10s or longer without getting the clear.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sephrim.5472" said:

> It's very likely abrasive grit was clumsily recoded, too. The way it is now, The best you can hope for is a condi removal CHECK every 5 seconds. Once the ICD has passed, it will give you might, look for a condi and clear it if it finds one. No condi? No clear for 5s. So you might go 10s or longer without getting the clear.

 

The issue is more that the condi cleanse will just affect 1 player most of the time instead of cleansing allies like it was designed to be. Ultimately this is a support trait that lost it's support and became a selfish trait.

 

Like Lahmia point out, this is _chilling darkness_ all over again. Good thing is that ANet logic next step will be to bring back the "group" effect in one way or another so either they go all out the _chilling darkness_ way, allowing single use of party barrier to grant the effect of the trait while keeping the stupid ICD or they become a bit smater and they make the trait proc on manifest sand shade (F1) use along with bringing nefarious favor's condi cleanse back to 2.

 

I won't say that I have a lot of hope for the smart choice, ANet isn't known for going back on changes even when they realise they screwed up.

[Dace.8173]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > you're very unlikely to get one. This is the place where all things go to be forgotten and die.

> >

> > >Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

> >

> > my tin foil hat theory on this: because we're the only flood gate to the boon spam of other classes. They tried to make sb, mes and rev flood gates as well, but their boon rip pales in comparison to boon corrupts especially since ours comes with a pulsing aoe on a 900 range with a relatively short cd. Essentially imo, the necro is the anti everything so it can't be anything except that otherwise it would be too much for everyone else.

> >

> > Some minor nitpicks

> > >What about the support builds without that rune? The loss of so much support. Did the decision _take_ that in account?

> >

> >

> > >having 1 build to carry noobs in high end pvp which is only required if the whole group is bad otherwise it is not required, the other build is dps on the lower end.

> > do you mean pve?

> >

>

> Yeah pve, my mistake.

>

> Im not complaining i just need the reasons communicated.

>

> Cant they just rework this class? No one is happy with it. Neither the enemies, nor the players. Not even the developers.

 

A rework of the profession is unlikely. There are people who actually like it. They aren't as common in many of these types of discussions because they are satisfied with it and don't have any real reason to participate in a thread that talks about it sucking. However, in several conversations, folks have stepped up and said they love the profession as is. How large the group of people who love the profession in its current state is anyone's guess. The forum is a horrible place to gauge how popular something is due to the self-selecting nature of posting here. Granted, being as how Necromancer still see's a lot of play then on some level it has a core group of folks who are happy with it.

 

In the end, ANet has more to lose by reworking it now than they have to gain. Since the odds of a net positive gain are low it's understandable why they haven't reworked it.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> Please explain the reasoning of nerfing a necromancer support trait because you released a rune without considering necromancer's traits.

>

> There are so few specs that have barrier application. When you create a new item, dont you want to test its interaction with everything else in the game that might be affected by it?

> And tbh it was not so hard in this case.

>

> I dont want to sound rude but yes now i also agree that recent events have shown ignorance and incompetency on devs part.

>

> If you do not remember every trait from a class of your own game after 6 years then you are incompetent to make judgement regarding balance in my eyes. This is your work not a hobby, you should be forced to remember every kitten trait and skill from game as homework on the first week of your job so that these kind of occurence dont happen.

 

I heard about the broken interaction roughly 45 minutes after the patch was launched. Twitch/YouTube streamers were showing it within hours. How this wasn't spotted by the developers who were working on this for "a long time", is beyond explanation.

 

I'm not one to jump on the "durr developers are dum" bandwagon, but this is truly an example of incompetence.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > Please explain the reasoning of nerfing a necromancer support trait because you released a rune without considering necromancer's traits.

> >

> > There are so few specs that have barrier application. When you create a new item, dont you want to test its interaction with everything else in the game that might be affected by it?

> > And tbh it was not so hard in this case.

> >

> > I dont want to sound rude but yes now i also agree that recent events have shown ignorance and incompetency on devs part.

> >

> > If you do not remember every trait from a class of your own game after 6 years then you are incompetent to make judgement regarding balance in my eyes. This is your work not a hobby, you should be forced to remember every kitten trait and skill from game as homework on the first week of your job so that these kind of occurence dont happen.

>

> I heard about the broken interaction roughly 45 minutes after the patch was launched. Twitch/YouTube streamers were showing it within hours. How this wasn't spotted by the developers who were working on this for "a long time", is beyond explanation.

>

> I'm not one to jump on the "durr developers are dum" bandwagon, but this is truly an example of incompetence.

>

 

To be fair i think thats simple. We dont have many testers / devs who dive deep into necromancer as they should. After me and a friend tested the rune on every profession with a ton of different skills that heal its clear they put some strong rules on what would trigger the rune and what wouldn't its not random when you start looking at what will trigger it and what wont.

 

My **"guess"** would be that most of them focus on mesmer, ele, warrior, or ranger. The top professions get the most time because they bring in the most money and make up a larger portion of the active player base. But people who commit to necro in generally find the loop holes that the devs don't ever think to explore. Scourge has had quite a few now which is the real incompetent part. (not surprising considering its so different from base necro)

 

I dont think they are dumb and it would be just ignorant to call them as such. You cant ever expect devs to use tools built in any game the way the players would that almost never happens.

 

A prime example would be to look at weaver. It has a skill called "Unravel" or something that takes weavers element combination and breaks it back down to simple ele formant for a short time. This was likely worked in because "they" thought it might be a useful or important tool for players to have. But as far as I know almost no one uses that tool.

In scourges case it tends to be the opposite example. ITs given tools that "They" may not have put much thought into as a result later becomes a problem once the players get a hold of them and start to play around with them. I think scourge's tools were not ever really thought through. Scourge was the attempt to please necro players cries for "I wish necro didn't have shroud, then we could be like 'x' or have the same things as 'y'." But ive never seen an elite spec cause so much fuss and create so much imbalance in the game as this one under un intended mechanics multiple times.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> To be fair i think thats simple. We dont have many testers / devs who dive deep into necromancer as they should. After me and a friend tested the rune on every profession with a ton of different skills that heal its clear they put some strong rules on what would trigger the rune and what wouldn't its not random when you start looking at what will trigger it and what wont.

>

> My **"guess"** would be that most of them focus on mesmer, ele, warrior, or ranger. The top professions get the most time because they bring in the most money and make up a larger portion of the active player base. But people who commit to necro in generally find the loop holes that the devs don't ever think to explore. Scourge has had quite a few now which is the real incompetent part. (not surprising considering its so different from base necro)

>

> I dont think they are dumb and it would be just ignorant to call them as such. You cant ever expect devs to use tools built in any game the way the players would that almost never happens.

>

> A prime example would be to look at weaver. It has a skill called "Unravel" or something that takes weavers element combination and breaks it back down to simple ele formant for a short time. This was likely worked in because "they" thought it might be a useful or important tool for players to have. But as far as I know almost no one uses that tool.

> In scourges case it tends to be the opposite example. ITs given tools that "They" may not have put much thought into as a result later becomes a problem once the players get a hold of them and start to play around with them. I think scourge's tools were not ever really thought through. Scourge was the attempt to please necro players cries for "I wish necro didn't have shroud, then we could be like 'x' or have the same things as 'y'." But ive never seen an elite spec cause so much fuss and create so much imbalance in the game as this one under un intended mechanics multiple times.

 

When you intend to introduce a mechanism that generate easily a lot of barrier, you look at the wiki on the barrier page. If you see no possible exploit it's fine, otherwise you don't carry on with this mechanism. It's not even a matter of whether they use or not the necromancer.

 

PS.: I disagree with you, I believe that the necromancer is one of the profession that inspire them the most and that they are really invested into this profession. They love it as it is and don't want it to change or lose the identity that gave it in any way. From my point of view, the necromancer is still the only profession in GW2 for which sake they are ready to bend the game in order to make it better instead of just tweeking it and formating it into something close to what other professions do. It's to the point that I'd say that they are "fanatics" when it come to the necromancer.

[Lexan.5930]

Abrasive grit change was uncalled for.

It's a SUPER nerf. You can now maintain a maximum of 9 stacks of might on a party _using barrier_ with boon duration close to 100%. 9 stacks maximum. Druid specifically can spam might on a party of 10 like its no tomorrow.

 

The problem with the interaction was never abrasive grit, it was **vampiric minor trait in blood**.

[https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vampiric](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vampiric "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vampiric")

 

This trait makes every hit steal life for the necro only

any hit of vampiric counts as a heal even if you already have maximum health (code issues)

other healing sources wont heal you if your at full health so transfusion on a full health necro does not proc the trait

abrasive grit was fine, it did not need to be touched

vampiric **MINOR** trait in blood magic needed a 1 second ICD and a 100% buff to it's 20 life steal damage

 

Please anet fix a minor trait instead of an elite specs major trait.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

This should have been split between PvP & PvE, regardless if they don't believe that many would use this in PvE the simple fact is it was not an issue in that mode of play. Far, far too often the simplest action is nerfing and it's flat out a lazy way of balancing with Necro usually feeling the brunt. I agree with the sentiment of the OP only in the fact that i too am very tired of balancing things without explanation. We may not always agree but we sure as hell could help point out potential issues, we always do in the end by then it is usually too late and another sector of the player base is disgruntled or leaving.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> >

> > To be fair i think thats simple. We dont have many testers / devs who dive deep into necromancer as they should. After me and a friend tested the rune on every profession with a ton of different skills that heal its clear they put some strong rules on what would trigger the rune and what wouldn't its not random when you start looking at what will trigger it and what wont.

> >

> > My **"guess"** would be that most of them focus on mesmer, ele, warrior, or ranger. The top professions get the most time because they bring in the most money and make up a larger portion of the active player base. But people who commit to necro in generally find the loop holes that the devs don't ever think to explore. Scourge has had quite a few now which is the real incompetent part. (not surprising considering its so different from base necro)

> >

> > I dont think they are dumb and it would be just ignorant to call them as such. You cant ever expect devs to use tools built in any game the way the players would that almost never happens.

> >

> > A prime example would be to look at weaver. It has a skill called "Unravel" or something that takes weavers element combination and breaks it back down to simple ele formant for a short time. This was likely worked in because "they" thought it might be a useful or important tool for players to have. But as far as I know almost no one uses that tool.

> > In scourges case it tends to be the opposite example. ITs given tools that "They" may not have put much thought into as a result later becomes a problem once the players get a hold of them and start to play around with them. I think scourge's tools were not ever really thought through. Scourge was the attempt to please necro players cries for "I wish necro didn't have shroud, then we could be like 'x' or have the same things as 'y'." But ive never seen an elite spec cause so much fuss and create so much imbalance in the game as this one under un intended mechanics multiple times.

>

> When you intend to introduce a mechanism that generate easily a lot of barrier, you look at the wiki on the barrier page. If you see no possible exploit it's fine, otherwise you don't carry on with this mechanism. It's not even a matter of whether they use or not the necromancer.

>

Considering that before hand scourge's barrier application was still pretty gated by the skill cooldowns I can see how they missed the one problem trait in question. The reason they likely carried on with it is because they don't want professions to be outliers when it comes to certain mechanics... (alacrity / barrier being the two prime examples)

 

> PS.: I disagree with you, I believe that the necromancer is one of the profession that inspire them the most and that they are really invested into this profession. They love it as it is and don't want it to change or lose the identity that gave it in any way. From my point of view, the necromancer is still the only profession in GW2 for which sake they are ready to bend the game in order to make it better instead of just tweeking it and formating it into something close to what other professions do. It's to the point that I'd say that they are "fanatics" when it come to the necromancer.

 

I dont really want to speak on what inspires them because thats just up in the air for back and forth debate that will never end, I will say you could possibly be right but i wont say you surely are right

 

I dont doubt they invest into necro it showed with reaper alone that they were more than willing to invest heavily in necro with great detail. But Compared to some of the other profession it still shows they get considerably more investment. Mesmer obviously does its the only profession up till scourge to bring new mechanics into the game that only it could access, first was alacrity, now they are the only ones who can take any offensive option they want while dodging via mirage cloak. They got a ground up rework to address long lasting issues, and its never had for technical purposes "Unintended mechanics that lead swarms of imbalance on levels as high like scourge has now multiple times."

 

I never said they didn't invest with necro but im simply saying i dont think its invested more than some other professions.

 

Lets assume you are correct and you could be, however if they didnt want to change necro or make it loose its identity, I dont think scourge would have come to be as it is now to be honest. We would have simply seen a new take on shroud with new shroud skills. I think that scourge was 100% an attempt to give players what they had been asking for, for a loooong time. A necro with "no shroud."

 

I do agree with you that necro is one of the more unique professions and thats what keeps me drawn into it. But that only extends to core and reaper for me. Scourge simply too different by my eyes its nearly its own profession. Maybe its closer to something in the first guild wars but this is not that game.

[Ragi.7291]

>Im not defending the op builds or critizing the nerfs. Im just asking for explanation, thought process and testing behind it because i feel it was not justified. If they just put more effort in disabling the rune from whole game for some days and came up with better solution than just nerfing the trait it wouldve been better.

 

>Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

 

>While youre at it please explain your take on death magic traitline and traits like reapers protection snd unholy sanctuary. Why traited plague signet is worse than untraited. Why death shroud skills have 40sec cds?

 

**I totally agree with this!**

[Lexan.5930]

> @"Ragi.7291" said:

> >Im not defending the op builds or critizing the nerfs. Im just asking for explanation, thought process and testing behind it because i feel it was not justified. If they just put more effort in disabling the rune from whole game for some days and came up with better solution than just nerfing the trait it wouldve been better.

>

> >Why is it always necromancers that break the game? Why is it that they constantly need to be nerfed? Even though they are kicked from pve because low dps and cant move without support in pvp/wvw why is it that they are always the ones creating the problem? Every patch devs have troubles with this class and balancing anything interacting with necromancers is a pain. If it is giving troubles every patch then why not rework this class on priority?

>

> >While youre at it please explain your take on death magic traitline and traits like reapers protection snd unholy sanctuary. Why traited plague signet is worse than untraited. Why death shroud skills have 40sec cds?

>

> **I totally agree with that!**

 

THIS ALL THIS!!!!

a MINOR trait witha rune interaction, with a major trait interaction (thats 3 in a row) breaks part of the game, but instead of fixing the root cause (vampiric being considred healing even at full health and no ICD) they changed the elite spec major trait and nerfed it's might gen ability and condi cleanse ability while druids have no ICD on thier condi cleanse or might gen with skills on lower CD's (also fury, protection, swiftness and regen without traits)

[DragonFury.6243]

simple explanation necro worth a little bit less than one rune set

 

-Anet

[Phantom.2976]

Cellofrag posted a vid of pvp weaver with evasion runes. Unlimited condi cleanse. Lets see Will they slap a 5sec icd on the ele traits or not

 

Edit: link

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Phantom.2976" said:

> Cellofrag posted a vid of pvp weaver with evasion runes. Unlimited condi cleanse. Lets see Will they slap a 5sec icd on the ele traits or not

>

>

> Edit: link

 

Its on ele so I'm willing to bet no

[SilentSam.1589]

I am sure people have seen this by now but if you haven't then here is the explanation as to why they made the change to abrasive grit rather than changes to the rune set. [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60708/rune-of-sanctuary-abrasive-grit")